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Hai, I've been a Team Liquid lurker for a while, but I'm finally asking for advice!! I'm a diamond Zerg and I just wanted to ask a general question of what fellow Zergs look for to estimate when a Terran is going to move out.
When I say Terran, you can just assume they opened hellion expand and transitioned into marine tank; this is what I play against 90% of the time. I feel like my biggest problem is either over-droning, and losing because I didn't expect the Terran to move out when they did, or I don't drone enough; expecting the Terran to move out...and they don't.
I feel like this is a constant struggle and is the cause of a lot of lost matches. I realize every game is different, some Terrans will choose to drop before moving out, some will drop WHILE moving out in order to distract you. Some will just decide "OKAI TYME TO GO :B!!" just out of the blue, in my opinion. I feel like you have to have a way bigger army supply than the Terran to overwhelm them, any decent Terran can micro against a few lings and banelings; which is what I end up having when they move out before I expect them to. But I would like to know things to look for so I can begin preparing at an appropriate time, if this is at all possible.
Note: I definitely keep watch of towers and keep a zergling at their front to see when they DO move out, but obviously if I made even a few drones recently, I won't have enough larva to dump out a big enough army to even challenge a marine tank force.
Sorry if this seems dumb, again this is my first post :> This is a [Q] post because I am in a class and don't have replays to post to make this a [H] post :| . Anyway, feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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A macro hatch might solve your problem, as long as you don´t get supply blocked, so you have enough supply to morph extra larva´s into lings. Good creep spread helps alot too, as most terrans will not run their tanks onto creep unless it´s within range to siege an expo.
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You're right, I will definitely have to work on my early creep spread. There is a small window where spreading creep can be a pain due to hellions, but a couple extra zerglings early on to run them off should work  ! Also, I almost always macro hatch before I make my 3rd in ZvT, but I appreciate the tipz.
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Many zerg players prefer to use their Spine Crawler's to chase away hellions rather then doing the infamous "I hope the terran player is not looking right now so I can catch his hellions!". It seems to be a more reliable way to push your creep out with hellions on the board, and it saves larvae.
Having a good creep spread will help you in stalling the terran push somewhat. Terrans should be very hesitant to move onto creep unless they know exactly what they are up against, if they just rambo it you should have no problem crunching the push. You could also try the 4Queen style, it gives zergs a ridiculously good creep spread, I think IdrA has been using it quite alot recently on his stream, you could try your luck looking at his TwitchTV vods, maybe you can pick stuff up from there.
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On March 31 2012 22:43 Emiras wrote:You're right, I will definitely have to work on my early creep spread. There is a small window where spreading creep can be a pain due to hellions, but a couple extra zerglings early on to run them off should work ! Also, I almost always macro hatch before I make my 3rd in ZvT, but I appreciate the tipz.
Actually I would rather suggest an extra queen or even 2, to chase off hellions and spread creep alot faster. Queens cost no larva and makes you safe from banshees (till cloak). Queens have alot of hp and transfuse makes them really good, and finally when you take your 3rd you will already have the extra queen, if you make 2, then you´ve got 1 for your macro hatch already.
Try delay your gas till around 30 supply and make 1-2 more queens instead and be light on the lings. You really don´t need ling speed or banes that early in most cases.
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Again the feedback is much appreciated I've been doing the build I've seen on CatZ's stream, it's similar to Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher. I believe it's about 15 or 16 hatch 17 pool, spine, 4 Queens, triple or quad gas at about 44 supply. Lair with 1st 100 gas, ling speed with 2nd 100 gas, generally going into muta ling bane. Maybe I'm executing it wrong and not getting the lead I should be getting. Replays will more than likely be posted later, if anyone would like to check back in !
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At diamond level, it often happens that players make way more drones than most professional players do. Pros cut corners yet seem to know the minimum number of units they have to make to survive, while diamond players can just happily drone up without making any units, feel great about drone counts, and just die. I am one of them T_T.
Having said that, Terran marine/tank army has 2.25 movement speed. This means you have about 40 sec to prepare. So, you have at least 1 round of larvae available for army. What you need right now = (ideal army count to deal with push - 1 round of larvae). 1 round is about 14 larvae for 2 hatcheries. I estimate ideal number wrong often times, but this formula is what I use. I think good players use this logic as well to keep drone count as high as possible yet survive incoming push.
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You can chase off hellions with spines but its not optimal.You have to spread your creep close to the spine, wait until it spreads, move spine up again and repeat. Takes too long...
Extra queens have too short range to chase off hellions and they'll snipe your tumors anyways.
Making some lings and hoping for a surrond is the best bet you can do if you don't like going roaches (which I dont)
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Hi, ~mid-master zerg here, ill try to give some advice on the subject even though there will never be a clear guideline to follow.
Generally, if the terran did a standard hellion expand and you played it out correctly there should be no moving out before you are at a full two base saturation because no important upgrades or unit counts will have finished before then. This means on two bases you should in most cases be able to drone up completely before any attacks hit unless the terran 1bases. This is a good rule of thumb to keep in the back of your head, for me the rest is up to my scouting and estimations.
Some things i look for personally:
Can i spot a quick third command center? Tanks or medivacs first? Is stim or combat shields done? How many marines does he have, can i estimate the number of barracks by seeing his marine count? When does he take the gas at his natural?
However, no matter how well you predict his move out timing, there is one crucial thing you need to hold. Larvae. ALWAYS build a macro hatch, if you cant take a really quick third get one in your base, it's always better to have spare larvae than it is to have spare resources.
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You can easily check in front of his bases with a gling when he's gonna move out, it's even more useful if you grab burrow tech.
Try to always have the control of xel'naga towers, it's part of the basics of Z's race.
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On March 31 2012 23:09 Emiras wrote:Again the feedback is much appreciated I've been doing the build I've seen on CatZ's stream, it's similar to Spanishiwa's Ice Fisher. I believe it's about 15 or 16 hatch 17 pool, spine, 4 Queens, triple or quad gas at about 44 supply. Lair with 1st 100 gas, ling speed with 2nd 100 gas, generally going into muta ling bane. Maybe I'm executing it wrong and not getting the lead I should be getting. Replays will more than likely be posted later, if anyone would like to check back in !
You need to post replays otherwise no one can give you adivce that will pertain to the style of play you are trying to execute.
I never have a problem with terrans initial push because I use stephanos ling/infestor build vs marine tank and it always times out right to have 2 bases with optimal saturation (44 drones) before terran pushes then I just make ling/infestor until the terran pushes and lay down a third and macro hatch.
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mid masters Z, I am going to say kind of a lot so be prepared.
Overall gameplay tips:
1. You NEED creep spread and 1-2 spines(you have those because of hellions) it delays his push forever. He has to kill the creep and then get up to the spines which would be really bad to fight into. do not move the spines to the very front of your creep because they are not scary until you have any number of infestors behind them. also Creep spread and spines delay his pushes throughout the entire game. dedicate 1-2 queens to creep.
2. early game always have lings spotting everywhere. patrolling for drops, in front of his base, at his third. This info helps you determine what he is doing. later in the game have burrow and overlord speed. These are essential, if he kills an overlord spotting for drops replace it, burrow lings in the pathways of his attacks to see him moving around, if it dies replace it.
3. something to note, do not have larvae sitting idle, if you are saturated then make attacking units, if there is no reason to make drones then make attacking units.
4. random tip: you need to have your tech units readily accessible, morphing banes when he pushes out then lings support. you have your mutas then you reinforce with lings. you have infestors then reinforce with lings and so on.
5. in case anyone was wondering why carapace first, your lings do not die to 1 tank shot and makes them survive vs marines longer.
Going Ling,Bane into Muta(no roaches): Make sure to use the overall gameplay tips
Saturate 2 bases, once saturated make lings. Once you can take down his hellions to do so, grab your third. throw down your bane nest your preference(usually when your lair is like half done). you should have lings everywhere scouting for everything right now, with the extra ones you are going to save to make into banes when his push comes, so you are not making lings then banelings. You make banelings with the existing lings and then lings to support.
I play infestor/ling(no banes no roaches): Make sure to use the overall gameplay tips
saturate 2 bases, once saturated make lings. take down hellions grab third. with your first mined gas get ling speed then +1 carapace, then +1 melee attack, your lair after that, and then infestation pit as soon as it finishes as well as 2/2. Pure lings can hold off the marine tank push. Once you get infestors i use them defensively with spines(they are so good defensively). and counter attack with lings to try and delay forever. Most terrans will try to split you up with drops and pushes, make stationary defense. I always make a spore crawler ring in my main because i do not want to lose my tech structures. make one spine with it to kill the like 2-3 marines that could be dropped before the medivac dies.(Most terrans do not even look at their drops, they just drop to stress with the zerg's apm)
Hope it helps, I didnt really cover late game because it is too different game to game. Just have lings everywhere and creep everywhere and learn how to delay the pushes. Oh and a ton of static defense, because the drops are going to become brutal.
GL on teh ladder son!
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at 5:30 there can be 2 hellions at your base. If delay then 5:50 mark there will be 4 hellions. Standard stuff.
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EPT
