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So i often hear diamond and master players tell bronze people how bad it is to cheese and how it won't get them to improve their game. They usualy tell them they need to improve their macro beacuse eventualy, people will learn to counter cheese.
So i decided to ladder up an account using ONLY protoss cheese (lord knows protoss have the best of the best in terms of cheese). I was in master after 60 or so games with 40-20 ish stats.
This is a guide on cheesing your way up to master.
vs Zerg : -pylon wall in + cannon -4 gate blink stalkers -Dts -5 gate
vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy -Dts
vs Protoss -modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate
These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.
Well, anyways, what are your thoughts on cheesing ? Is there really a skill cap or could you potentialy compete at the highest level using massive amounts of cheese (ActionJesuz ?)
edit : when i say Dts, i don't mean containing your opponent with one or 2 Dts to expand safely, i mean getting 7-8 Dts to snipe both his CC/nexus/hatch
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build order for each tactic pls.
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4 gate blink stalkers isnt cheese? dts isnt cheese either?
and no cheese-only builds dont work at the top like they do at ladder.
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You still suck at the game if you only know how to cheese imo. I reckon the real skill is in multitasking, and the longer the game, the more multitasking.
And I, for one, find the longer macro games to be more fun than quick cheese games.. but I'm sure there are some who love the feeling of making someone ragequit, or just like cheesing in general.
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cheese play will after some time lose its efficienty, when it is well known. so as you yourself remark, you will have to keep up with creative cheeses to keep your ratio.
but in the end all of this will be sortet out as players will get better, as cheese relies on your opponents inability to adapt.
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i watched actionjesuz last night but erm, naw i think people are not scouting effective enough to prepare correctley for cheese saying that
i have no ffin idea what the correct reaction to cheese is.
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well the problem of cheese is what happens when you have to play against people who actually know a bit about you, for example in a cup, especially bo3,5,7. if you are in that situation (and its inevitable if you really want to play on top level) and you cant play anything but cheese, you're basically done.
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4gate blink dts 5gate are not really considered as cheese.
if you're very good at cheesing you can get into masters with it. i don't doubt that. but you will never win a tourney with it against the same players because after the first game they will activly look around and easily deny it.
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On January 24 2011 20:31 snafulator wrote: build order for each tactic pls.
I don'really have BOs for y cheeses, i just do what feels right.
4 gate blink stalkers you can check out those nazgul vs idra games
Pylon wall in is like 13 forge 15 triple pylon
Modified 4WG korea into DTs is just like a 4 WG korea except you don't pull guys off gaz, get a twiglight council, warp in 4 zealots, then get second gaz and prepare for dts
Proxy void rays : just proxy 2 stargates
Dts, i wait until 7 or 8 before attacking
I usualy stop probe production after a little less than a control group of probes.
For people saying i don't know how to play, on my official account i always play long macro games (excpet when i'm on tilt and need free wins to boost my confidence ). But i find that cheesing alows me to play a couple hundred points over my skill level. Are some people just more cheese oriented players ? Like Boxer is more micro oriented, Nada more macro oriented, is it possible that cheesy style suits some people better ? (bitbzbitPrime ?) And if so, should we really blame them for playing to their advantages ?
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Me n my bro share an NA account and we got into Masters in around 60games (maybe less) without much cheese.
A 4gate here or there.
So it is possible, just need to know how to react to cheese and macro. [edit] I dont know how many games it took us to get into diamond but when the patch got out, it required us 1 game to get into masters.
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On January 24 2011 20:38 TehForce wrote: 4gate blink dts 5gate are not really considered as cheese.
if you're very good at cheesing you can get into masters with it. i don't doubt that. but you will never win a tourney with it against the same players because after the first game they will activly look around and easily deny it.
Dts i said was the cheesy version with mass unscouted Dts
Also, 1base 5gate is definitly cheese.
4 gate blink stalkers i have never seen anyone transition into anything else once it failed so i would say it falls under the category cheese/all in/whatever.
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Double post sorry
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On January 24 2011 20:32 Xism wrote: You still suck at the game if you only know how to cheese imo. I reckon the real skill is in multitasking, and the longer the game, the more multitasking.
And I, for one, find the longer macro games to be more fun than quick cheese games.. but I'm sure there are some who love the feeling of making someone ragequit, or just like cheesing in general. Not the point OP was trying to make. What he is saying is, "Bullshit to all of those posters who keep saying that the higher up you get, the generally better players are about cheese." There's just as a much, if not more, cheese in Masters than there is in bronze.
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Most of that isn't even cheese, Toss is just kinda OP.
User was warned for this post
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I think that 60% of my vs Protoss are some sort of cheese or all in/ semi all in. It is a very cheese friendly race and a ton of players got to diamond/masters doing just that. Maybe they have to many good options of all ining?
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Lulz im a T so when i cheese i proxy rax get 5 marines and bring all workers
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theese builds are pretty funny....but no cheese...just simple 1-base (all-in) builds, i dont like em too much cause u dont exp(or do you) and it fails hard when it gets scouted....
if u consider blink stalker/ 5-gate chesse, then u must say a terran 1 base marine/raven/tank/whatever push is cheese too...just timing and hitting ur opponent off-guard
fun on ladder...but hard to pull out in tourneys...as u have a build order history...good to throw in in a bo5 or so to confuse/surprise ur opponent
edit: oh yeah and its better to learn macro first...cause its better to learn to play the game first and then abuse it then the other way around...
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On January 24 2011 20:53 TALegion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:32 Xism wrote: You still suck at the game if you only know how to cheese imo. I reckon the real skill is in multitasking, and the longer the game, the more multitasking.
And I, for one, find the longer macro games to be more fun than quick cheese games.. but I'm sure there are some who love the feeling of making someone ragequit, or just like cheesing in general. Not the point OP was trying to make. What he is saying is, "Bullshit to all of those posters who keep saying that the higher up you get, the generally better players are about cheese." There's just as a much, if not more, cheese in Masters than there is in bronze.
No it is not. He said that in diamond cheese is more likely to be deflected so you should transition into some other kind of cheese to have a chance to succeed.
At no point did he mention there is more cheese in Master than in bronze
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I think PIQLIQ is a shining example of how a player can use cheese for almost a majority of his/her games and still end up being extremely high on the ladder, even though their marco skills and game sense, or whatever qualities you attribute to "normal game-play", are bad. I'm not trying to say I'm personally great at sc2 or anything, the point is just that it's better to play macro games but on ladder it seems like just cheesing actually can get you to the top, at least in terms of points gained.
Geiko, having cheese builds to throw into the mix is always a good idea especially if you're playing a tournament-style bo5 or something. It's always good to have the element of surprise on your side. That being said, I really hate your example of BitByBitprime. He's a horrible player that can only cheese; the BoxeR vs NaDa comparison was a far more relevant example.
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I want to laud Geiko for this effort, and likewise scorn people who say stupid things like "If you cheese you have no real skill" and that any kind of DTs are cheese or that 4 gate is cheese. The term Cheese was originally meant to mean some tricky use in early game to defeat an opponent who didn't scout it correctly, such as 6 pool, cannon rush, proxy gateway (barracks) and such.
To say that you can't cheese at the top is rediculous. The Koreans do it all the time. Progamers do it all the time.
The thing about cheese is that it's a risk shot. If it works, great, if it doesn't, it almost ALWAYS puts the cheeser in a severe economic disadvantage to his opponent.
Believe me, there's nothing I hate more than missing a proxy pylon that turns into 3 stalkers and a zealot at my ramp (or worse in my base if I really was bad at scouting) when I've barely my first couple marines out. But it's part of the game. Stop complaining about it and dismissing those who use it as having no skill. As with anything, those that rely ONLY on cheese will never stay at the top. However, those that use it as part of their playbook to mix it up and keep their opponents guessing are great players.
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France12466 Posts
As Mercury has said, it's not that much about cheese but about Protoss being thaaaat strong. " For people saying i don't know how to play, on my official account i always play long macro games (excpet when i'm on tilt and need free wins to boost my confidence )" Macro games with protoss are not free wins? What's the game you are playing? . "Protoss c'est fort" ^^.
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Cheese at the highest level is fun to watch, but I dont think it will be viable for a long time, stuff gets figured out. Take 2rax scv- allin for example, when it first came out many thought it broke starcraft and Artosis said on stream that he considered unbeatable. Fast forward a few months, it's merely a strong early game cheese, but is hold off pretty easily if scouted.
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On January 24 2011 21:27 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:53 TALegion wrote:On January 24 2011 20:32 Xism wrote: You still suck at the game if you only know how to cheese imo. I reckon the real skill is in multitasking, and the longer the game, the more multitasking.
And I, for one, find the longer macro games to be more fun than quick cheese games.. but I'm sure there are some who love the feeling of making someone ragequit, or just like cheesing in general. Not the point OP was trying to make. What he is saying is, "Bullshit to all of those posters who keep saying that the higher up you get, the generally better players are about cheese." There's just as a much, if not more, cheese in Masters than there is in bronze. No it is not. He said that in diamond cheese is more likely to be deflected so you should transition into some other kind of cheese to have a chance to succeed. At no point did he mention there is more cheese in Master than in bronze
I wasn't really trying to make a point about how much cheese you see in bronze or master league, i was trying to point out that, in my opinion, cheese is just another one of those playstyle that works at every skill level, you just have to work on it more and refine your cheese. Master players are by far not immune to cheese as many people want bronze players to beleive. People saying cheese doesn't work in master are just wrong, and people saying you shouldn't practise some cheese are equaly wrong.
Also, there is no right way to learn to play the game. I started off starcraft doing only one base all in builds and got pretty high to diamond. Then i felt like i hit some sort of skill cap and started learning macro style. But i learned A LOT from my my first cheesy period such as micro, timings, general game sens etc...
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Hi, i'm Terran and I got cheesed by a Protoss.
Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead.
How can a Terran deal with that ?
I can't go to an island (if there is one) and try to come back... the guy will chronoboost probe and make Voids.
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: Well, anyways, what are your thoughts on cheesing ? Is there really a skill cap or could you potentialy compete at the highest level using massive amounts of cheese (ActionJesuz ?)
Why is cheese or no cheese that important??
If you micro your cheese really good or your BO is a winner what does it matter? You're probably doing something right, right...who's to say it's cheese when builds with tier2 like dts are allready cheesetactics? Then everything will be cheese eventually (no prb for me btw, I'm from holland anyways...so cheese is my middlename;-)
Even cheese requires a decent player as mensioned earlier. Use whatever tactic that makes you win. If you can only win with cheese is another subject..
So "To cheese or not to cheese is the question".
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Yeah, you can get to Master's doing cheese, but you don't actually improve, you only improve your cheeses. You tell lower level players that cheese is bad so that they can actually improve at the game.
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On January 24 2011 21:53 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: Yeah, you can get to Master's doing cheese, but you don't actually improve, you only improve your cheeses. You tell lower level players that cheese is bad so that they can actually improve at the game.
Why is improving your ability to cheese not improving your ability to pay the game as a whole ?
I could tell all the macro players out there : "sure you improve your macro, but you don't have any cheese builds so good players will just use greedy openings agaisnt you and you'll lose"
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I have always been a cheese hater, especially since I started playing Zerg in SC2.
Blizzard has been reigning in some of the worst offenders with the last few patches, but back in beta that shit was retarded.
Anyway, after getting cheesed all day vs any race and people trying to justify it with "Zerg is OP late game" which we know to be much less true these days... I gave up and joined the club.
Early aggression is HUGE in SC2... like... it's too good... I can spine crawler rush another zerg, cancel the spine and only kill like 6-8 drones and the game is basically even... my cheese utterly fails and we're even...
I can 7 pool a protoss player and lose all my lings and not kill a single probe in the process... as long as I force a forge and 2 cannons, I will be able to expand and hold off his 4-gate.
Terran is still immune to cheese though =/
Being a cheeser or highly aggressive or whatever you want to call it has given me a different set of skills. My macro is still pretty good because hey, that's what I really want to do anyway, but now that I'm trying to make 8 lings win me the game (or at least put me ahead), I know exactly how many probes and 1 zealot those 8 lings can take on. I know all those perfect little choke points in the mineral line that will fuck up drone AI if I put a spine crawler there. My micro has gotten so much better than it used to be.
In the end, I would say there is a lower skill cap on cheese than there is on macro play, but that skill cap is way above Master level.
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You will not be successful if you do not have mechanics and no the reason why you are cheesing and why it is supposed to work.
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On January 24 2011 21:44 Oishiiii wrote: Hi, i'm Terran and I got cheesed by a Protoss.
Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead.
What? You scouted proxy 2gate in your base and couldn't stop it? When did you see the gates, right away? Are you trolling? Send 4 scvs to kill the pylon if your that worried, make a bunker near ur min line to put a few marines in it, delay your gas a bit and you have a free win.
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France12466 Posts
On January 24 2011 21:57 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 21:53 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: Yeah, you can get to Master's doing cheese, but you don't actually improve, you only improve your cheeses. You tell lower level players that cheese is bad so that they can actually improve at the game. Why is improving your ability to cheese not improving your ability to pay the game as a whole ? I could tell all the macro players out there : "sure you improve your macro, but you don't have any cheese builds so good players will just use greedy openings agaisnt you and you'll lose" And I tell you, learn 2 cheese is far far (I mean FAR :D) easier than learn to play the game "standart", so ppl who didn't know how to cheese but are decent with standart games can learn super fast how to cheese to mix their play, but "cheeses only players" just can't learn that fast how to play the game.
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BitByBitPrime got to Code A cheesing his way into victory =P.
Maybe in the future players will be more cheese proof (when the game sense / scouting improve), but right now even the safest player may get cheesed and lose.
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I saw the gates when the 2 gates was at 50% completed. I was not expecting that on Scrap Station. I couldn't attack the Pylo, positioned behind the gates. :/ I of course made a bunker but too late i guess...
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On January 24 2011 21:44 Oishiiii wrote: Hi, i'm Terran and I got cheesed by a Protoss.
Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead.
How can a Terran deal with that ?
I can't go to an island (if there is one) and try to come back... the guy will chronoboost probe and make Voids.
You pull workers, pin his forward probe, and knock out the pylon to win. If it's too late for that you didn't scout in time. Any cheese is answerable fairly easily if you scout/react in time.
I guess cheese has been extended to one base all-ins now according to the OP. That and DTs which take like 8 freaking minutes to "rush" out. Now I'm definitely a mcaro player but if you can't hold a one base, or stop a cheese, you don't have any right to complain about the length of the game, you're simply bad and need to improve.
And being bad is the reason people complain about cheese. Imagine micro players complaining about how OP three basing is.
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On January 24 2011 22:07 Oishiiii wrote: I saw the gates when the 2 gates was at 50% completed. I was not expecting that on Scrap Station. I couldn't attack the Pylo, positioned behind the gates. :/ I of course made a bunker but too late i guess... Well if you found them at 50% then that is the problem, you should always scout in and around your base vs protoss. You know there will be a probe coming, you must keep track of it.
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your point seems to be it s easy to cheese your way into masters league, well it s even easier to get into masters with standart solid build
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On January 24 2011 22:37 traca wrote: your point seems to be it s easy to cheese your way into masters league, well it s even easier to get into masters with standart solid build
And, for the record, being in the top 2% of a million person playerbase isn't even marginally impressive.
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Great :D. I love this thread! Make one for zerg too.
Oh? Zerg cheeses are stopped by simply placing your buildings in a different place using the exact same build? Well that stinks.
Bitterness aside, I don't mind cheesers as much. I get redhot from seeing 4gates into ( insert 1base strat that he uses because 4gate failed here ). But he sacrificed all his economy to do a proxy 2gate, or a 7 pool. Its in my ballpark to stop it, not theirs to execute it perfectly. I dislike using strategies that only work on people that don't know how to counter it, but to each his own.
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Thanks guys, i'll work on my timing to check for very early probe.
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On January 24 2011 20:33 TibblesEvilCat wrote: i watched actionjesuz last night but erm, naw i think people are not scouting effective enough to prepare correctley for cheese saying that
i have no ffin idea what the correct reaction to cheese is.
I was in them games :D Wish that 6pool worked ^.^
Cheese is strong in all levels, very underrated tbh. And it's gone out of fashion lately, should come back
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Great job! And those comments saying you will not be able to win tourneys with cheeses are just lol
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On January 24 2011 22:48 Cheerio wrote: Great job! And those comments saying you will not be able to win tourneys with cheeses are just lol
Who wins tourneys purely with cheese?
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I'll be honest guys, most of you are hypocrites. When someone wins a game serie in the GSL with 5 gates or blink stalkers, actually with anything that's not a fucking 1 hour macrofest, you guys all yell cheese. But when the guy proves you that all you've been saying about cheese not working at higher level of play is actually wrong, well it's not cheese anymore, Haha. C'mon guys, you have to get a definition of cheese and stick with it.
Edit: typo
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On January 24 2011 22:48 Cheerio wrote: Great job! And those comments saying you will not be able to win tourneys with cheeses are just lol You are just lol.
User was warned for this post
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You can win games on battlenet with cheese and get to rank1 masters, doesn't mean you're good at the game as a whole does it. It means you're good at one small part, which loses when people learn how to better stop it. Also vs the same people it will work less and less.
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TBF, at this point saying that a predominantly cheese player is worse then a macro player when they have similar win % against each other is wrong. After all, what makes a good macro player good is not only "macro skills" but also the ability to stop cheese. If you are not very good at scouting and defending cheese then, what are you doing macroing in the first place. The elephant in the room and all that.
If i were to give a complete noob some advice it would be to learn how to cheese and how to stop cheese. Only then can you "safely" learn to play macro games.
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well, if your cheese has that many transitions ( you can transition from proxy gate to dts to vr) then its no longer cheese per se. That's an ownage build order. You force them to make a lot of zealots and gates and try to catch them offguard with dts, after which they will make robo which will lose to VR/stargate tech.
I understand your point but you are probably masters standard anyway without the cheese.
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Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess.
Fact is, cheese (or even just one base plays) are clearly very, very deliberately included aspects of the game, and the game only records "win" or "loss", so a win with less than Marquis of Queensbury tactics is still a win.
Or, to put it another way, if you don't like that sort of thing (which I also don't) there's no point in criticising the cheesing player. After all, they're doing it just as "right" as you are. No, the object of the criticism should be the game design, as that's what's caused it in the first place.
In a way, complaining about cheesers is a bit like blaming the banks for the banking crisis - they're only doing what the system at the time told them to do, and those who could stop it decided not to because, well, they didn't perceive doing so to be in their own best interests.
tl;dr Where in the rules does it say you can't six pool?
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On January 24 2011 23:42 dtz wrote: well, if your cheese has that many transitions ( you can transition from proxy gate to dts to vr) then its no longer cheese per se. That's an ownage build order. You force them to make a lot of zealots and gates and try to catch them offguard with dts, after which they will make robo which will lose to VR/stargate tech.
I understand your point but you are probably masters standard anyway without the cheese.
^this
(if you're not masters, please correct us)
The point of telling bronze-gold players to learn macro instead of cheese is that by picking macro (over some other aspect) gives them the best chance to learn and improve at one aspect of the game. (I don't think it matters if some people think macro is the main aspect of the game or whatever.) If a player is going to be slowly learning macro it would be that much worse from them to try to start learning cheese (only). OP being already a high level player (assumed master league) means he was able to transition out of failed cheese (or 'cheese forces') into another "cheese" (imo transition from one cheese to something else that would be considered cheese cancels the cheesiness). I'm also betting the OP had a pretty decent APM (unspammed) and better micro than many of his opponents. Basically, a better player with master league MMR regardless of strategy. What I would find very interesting is how far the cheese only account could get compared to the main account for the same player...
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On January 24 2011 20:32 sekritzzz wrote: 4 gate blink stalkers isnt cheese? dts isnt cheese either?
and no cheese-only builds dont work at the top like they do at ladder.
I agree completly here.
Stalkers with Blink? LOL oh the cheese, nearly as bad as getting that OP range upgrade for collisis....
I really really think you need to check out what the meaning of the word cheese means.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese
See that first line ... "Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies on large parts on secrecy and/or psychological impact on the opponent. "
Everytime I ever play against Protoss i think , mmmh he's prob gonna 4 gate or cannon rush me. Infact im pretty sure the majority of non pro players think this.
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Probably one of the most entertaining line Ive read on these forums:
However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese.
I personally got into diamond doing nothing but 3 rax push, and left immidiately if my first push didnt win :D However, I had to diversify my tactics later on.
So: Can you share your replays? Im really interested in how you executed those cheezes. You can just .rar them and upload somewhere.
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I'd like to see someone get to masters as zerg with cheese/all ins only.
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I'd like to see someone get to masters as zerg with cheese/all ins only
Why are you saying it like it's plural? They have one cheese, unless you count 8 pool/6 pool to be different cheeses!
Well, okay, that's not true, but still, I don't think it could happen. Zerg cheeses are kind of easy to predict, whereas protoss have so many different ones that it's hard to go into a game knowing what kind of cheese he can do before you even send a scout out.
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Ridiculously stupid thread. You are a player good enough for Master League, you said it yourself. How the hell does it matter that you can also get there using 1 base play (check what cheese is) exclusiviely? No one says it's weak, you haven't discovered anything. Also ladder is the only place where you could DT rush every single game and still collect lots of wins, try doing the same thing in tournament circumstances where you are faced against the same player several times...
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Being good and then cheesing is not the same as getting good by cheesing. By demonstrating that an already solid player can make cheeses work to master level, you only showed just that. However I'll still argue that a "novice" player, should try the other aspects of the game to really get good at it.
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese.
Cheese into... MORE cheese? Jesus Christ, how much cheese do you want in one game? o_o
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.
That sounds fun! Do you have a replay? On topic though: cheesing is posible at every level of play but its risky. I personaly dont cheese (unless im frustrated with a loosing streak) but if you like it than go ahead and do it
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On January 25 2011 00:52 Tatari wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. Cheese into... MORE cheese? Jesus Christ, how much cheese do you want in one game? o_o
Actually its really not that nonsensical. When you cheese and fail you are far behind. So really you have better chances if you make another high-risk play. That's basically the downside to cheesing.
Although the blink stalker all-in can be very difficult to beat even if you do scout it. It also works against zerg. You just use the blink to get into positions that make surrounding impossible. Though really it's not cheese/all-in unless you just don't expand off of it.
It's just up to you whether or not you want to make it an all-in with dumb gameplay sense (same with dts)...
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Well a few reasons cheesing can get you to the top,
even if you are bad a cheese can give you around 50% chance of winning especially if opponent is unprepared.
You will play around 2x to 4x as many games as others because your games will end from 5 minute mark to 20 whereas macro games take 20-50
So even losing 1-1 you will play 2x or 4x as much and your bonus pool will skyrocket your ranking up till diamond.
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your bonus pool plays no part in your ranking
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I will say that the upper levels are a bit too lax when it comes to cheesy tactics. Ret advocates a 15 hatch 15 pool. I started doing that, and its great when it works, but even on four player maps, if there's an early pool you're completely screwed. Nonetheless, all of his opponent oblige him by doing the same build.
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On January 25 2011 01:08 onmach wrote: I will say that the upper levels are a bit too lax when it comes to cheesy tactics. Ret advocates a 15 hatch 15 pool. I started doing that, and its great when it works, but even on four player maps, if there's an early pool you're completely screwed. Nonetheless, all of his opponent oblige him by doing the same build.
Because cheese rarely works against high level players. They focus on aggressive scouting and watching the minimap way more then you or I. Ret can probably crush most cheeses with a 15 hatch 15 pool. It's not so surprising seeing we had Nestea win a GSL beating a 2 rax marine/scv all-in with a fucking expo up and all.
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On January 25 2011 01:05 MERLIN. wrote: Well a few reasons cheesing can get you to the top,
even if you are bad a cheese can give you around 50% chance of winning especially if opponent is unprepared.
You will play around 2x to 4x as many games as others because your games will end from 5 minute mark to 20 whereas macro games take 20-50
So even losing 1-1 you will play 2x or 4x as much and your bonus pool will skyrocket your ranking up till diamond.
Actualy, your points don't play a direct role in your placement. What does is your victories/losses against stronger or weaker players. I was 3rd in my gold division before going to platinum, and somewhere around 13 in platinum just before directly going to 17 Diamond. I was far from being top platinum regarding points. I just had a good winning streak against 2200/2400 Diamond players, not even being 2000 plat myself.
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what gives you the edge over other players you meet on ladder, you have buildorders, I am (low diamond) don't have a single buildorder, I build drones and units like i feel ~~
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On January 25 2011 01:08 onmach wrote: I will say that the upper levels are a bit too lax when it comes to cheesy tactics. Ret advocates a 15 hatch 15 pool. I started doing that, and its great when it works, but even on four player maps, if there's an early pool you're completely screwed. Nonetheless, all of his opponent oblige him by doing the same build.
Idra tends to pool first though. 15 hatching is safe on like cross positions metalopolis and jungle basin.
Personally I don't think cheese wins are very funny. I love it when you can actually outplay your opponent, instead of putting the entire game in his hands through letting him either answere correctly, meaning you're basically dead, or lose right there. Then again I'm a protoss player, and I just love getting to for instance high templar / chargelot against terran, as it makes me feel invincible (and honestly very few games are lost once you get to that tech with 3+ bases mining.)
Do what you think is fun. It's still a game, and games are meant to have fun with. I would advice trying out playing macro first though, as most players find it way more fun to play. Once you're in one of those epic games, you'll just giggle like a little girl who just robbed a candy store
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I have no idea why the OP believes all-ins are the same as cheese. I consider cheese as something that is very early game and requires a very finite amount of skill/micro. Cannon rush, proxy gates, those are definitely cheese. 5-gate, 4-gate blink stalker aren't cheese IMO.
And all of this is really silly. I highly, highly doubt if you polled masters players (on NA server at least) they would say it is not possible to get into masters w/ cheese + all-ins. In fact, I would say it is quite possible to get into masters simply by 4-gating, you don't even need more than 1 build!
But at the end of the day if all you know is to 4-gate, then yes it does hurt you in the long run. And as you do get higher up cheese/all-ins do get less and less effective, that is very evident. But that "skill cap" where it no longer works a good proportion of the time is not at low masters, that's for sure (on NA server at least).
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you cant win a tourney by cheesing? Enter OneCruncher LOL tlopen winner
but then again protoss is so op so thats why he proly won
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Cheese = A tactic or strategi that is relatively easy counterable if scouted by the opponent.
All in = An attack which puts you far behind if you dont win the engagement.
Hence Cheese and all in can be the same thing. LIke proxy gating or cannon rushing (given that these are attacks). Though one can make a 2 base all in attack that is not easy countered by the opponent, and is therefore allinish but not cheesy.
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Not going to go in the age old debate of what is cheese, and what isn't. I use the term cheese for strategies which give you a high probability of success if your opponent doesn't scout it, and leaves you behind if it fails. I don't know at what level you guys are playing, but a scouted 5 gate against zerg or scouted 4 gate blink means that the build WILL fail, and you have to try something else. You are cutting probes so you are behind on economy. All in is a strategy you can't recover from if it fails (not necesseraly cheese). I really feel all the builds mentionned in the OP are cheeses.
Anyways, the point of the OP was that there is no correct ways (to learn how) to play. You shouldn't be telling bronze people to macro hard and never cheese, in fact, i believe the best way to learn the game is to use all sorts of cheesy one base plays at the beginning. These are insanely easy to execute at low level meaning you will be facing good players faster and learning more than staying in bronze getting 6pooled/ cannon rushed / etc... every single game. Have you diamond/master ever tried getting in a random custom game against some gold/silver/bronze players ? I do customs to test builds when none of my practise partners are around and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a decent game to learn from. All the games are silly one base pushes with people usualy leaving once it fails. Now imagine a bronze player following "good" advice and trying to macro up only to lose to some cannoning or 6 pooling.
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Lol nice one! dont listen to the haterz xD
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I'm not surprised. What would be interesting is if someone got highly ranked only knowing his cheese builds. I'd think that even pro cheesers must learn to play "standard" to perfect their cheese.
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On January 25 2011 00:08 DestroManiak wrote:Probably one of the most entertaining line Ive read on these forums: Show nested quote +However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. I personally got into diamond doing nothing but 3 rax push, and left immidiately if my first push didnt win :D However, I had to diversify my tactics later on. So: Can you share your replays? Im really interested in how you executed those cheezes. You can just .rar them and upload somewhere.
Haven't been cheesing for a while so i lost all my replays (just found out yesterday there is actualy an option to save all your replays automaticaly now :| ) I'll try to get some to post here when i can
Also, to answer someone in this thread (forgot who), i am fairly confident that the MMR on my cheese account is higher than the one on my regular account. Before Master league, i was on average playing 3000 Diamonds with cheese and 2800 diamonds with normal account. Also my cheese account got placed directly in Master while i had to ladder a little bit with my normal account.
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I'm not sure about this post, is this a serious attempt or just a satire on the macro post recently? If its actually a serious attempt then this will be actually be quite interesting. however i really don't thinka lot of your builds count as cheese at all. Proxy gates, cannon rush, korean 4gate and maybe the cannon wall in count depending on your viewpoint but all the others are pretty straight up builds, even the mass disguised DTs is a decent strat if you can make it work.
One of the interesting things about the ladder i think is how it keeps you ranked at a level where you will consistently win 50/50 games and i've been thinking that it might be quite interesting to see what "par" would be for various builds. From that it would be possible to actually rank some strats in terms of how powerful they are. i'd be very interested to see how far 6pool say would get up the ladder, i would guess comfortably into platinum. obviously this would only work with simple build orders that finish the game one way or the other early on.
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On January 24 2011 21:57 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 21:53 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: Yeah, you can get to Master's doing cheese, but you don't actually improve, you only improve your cheeses. You tell lower level players that cheese is bad so that they can actually improve at the game. Why is improving your ability to cheese not improving your ability to pay the game as a whole ? I could tell all the macro players out there : "sure you improve your macro, but you don't have any cheese builds so good players will just use greedy openings agaisnt you and you'll lose" This is actually a hugely important post that somehow slipped by. It's important because, in essence, Geiko is 100% correct in what he says, but it doesn't necessarily prove the point he was trying to make. It is absolutely true that a player who is only able to play the most passive, macro-based games is missing just as much as a player who can only play the most aggressive games. I'm not sure anyone disputed this.
Where this falls apart is that traditional wisdom indicates that it is a lot harder for a player to learn to to play a solid, 30 minute long macro game than to follow some very specific build order and win or lose the match in 5 minutes. It seems to make sense: it sounds more challenging to continually make the correct decisions for 30 minutes than for 5 minutes.
What's more, in a macro game, you attempt to exploit small mistakes of your opponent into small advantages for yourself, meaning you are used to finding small weaknesses and playing to win based on a small advantage you made for yourself. Cheese is typically focused on exploiting a very glaring flaw in your opponent's strategy that lets you just go kill your opponent now. In other words, cheese teaches you how to play with a significant immediate advantage, and how to get there when your opponent makes significant mistakes. It seems sensible that better players are going to be less likely to make a mistake that you can straight-out kill them for.
Going a step further, once your opponent knows how to respond to your cheese, you're almost assuredly going to lose with it: cheese is too fragile to do much if your opponent responds well. On the other hand, if you're playing standard, the fact that someone knows how to respond to what you're doing doesn't really get them too far: the standard response to standard play doesn't result in either side having too big of an advantage. In other words, standard play seems to work better against people who know what they're doing than cheese does. It seems sensible to learn how to play against people who are actually good, instead of relying on your opponent to be bad.
Of course, we've overlooked to this point how strong macro actually is. Starcraft is balanced in such a way that a whole lot stuff tends to beat a little bit of good stuff. If my army is 3 times as big, it doesn't matter very much how perfect your Marine to Marauder ratio is.
None of this says a good player can't get far using cheese. No one, to my knowledge, questioned whether a Master League player could win games in the Master League with cheese. The question, as I understand it, is how well off a player is who only knows how to cheese. Geiko himself indicates that he can play at a skill level not insignificantly above his "normal" skill level with cheese. What happens when a player with very little real knowledge or experience with the game starts playing against significantly better people who understand how to very effectively deal with the poor player's cheese? That player is going to have a hell of a time playing standard. The player who focused on fundamentals and playing standard may not win, but they should at least have a lot more to fall back on.
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Cheese happens even at GSL levels, regardless of it being Code A, which is better than most masters lol. Cheese can take down even the most solid scouting/play, especially if it transitions into more cheese. ' Some replays/sc2ranks stats would be nice through.
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This is actually a hugely important post that somehow slipped by. It's important because, in essence, Geiko is 100% correct in what he says, but it doesn't necessarily prove the point he was trying to make. It is absolutely true that a player who is only able to play the most passive, macro-based games is missing just as much as a player who can only play the most aggressive games. I'm not sure anyone disputed this.
Where this falls apart is that traditional wisdom indicates that it is a lot harder for a player to learn to to play a solid, 30 minute long macro game than to follow some very specific build order and win or lose the match in 5 minutes. It seems to make sense: it sounds more challenging to continually make the correct decisions for 30 minutes than for 5 minutes.
Playing "macro-oriented" does mean playing passively. It just means being able to follow-up attacks and constantly putting yourself in a better and better position as the game goes on.
If you think that being "macro" means that you forgo aggression then you're simply doing it wrong.
It's why some of the builds described don't make a lot of sense as cheese. Blink Stalker all-in is only all-in if you make it an all-in. You don't have to. It could just be an aggressive opener.
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If the system let's them get to masters, let em. Just means free wins for real players who won't fall for the same old bag of tricks.
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Basically, on ladder any (MU specific) timing push with proper execution will grant u a good amount of wins, since u hardly play against the same player twice. You only need to stay ahead of the meta game. Even if scouted, I'd say that on the ladder (at least up to diamond lvl) u can make a good 55-65% win rate with a build you just copied from GSL matches. The question remains, does that make u a better player? I, personally don't think so. Will it let ur rating increase quite fast? it sure will!
Since I also play online leagues and tournaments I feel the need to have a good repertoire of strats (inlcuding cheese) to stand a chance. One example: Those sick TvP tank marine pushes. I lost to it 2 times and now I can fend it off most of the time (thx to NSPGenius btw), still a friend of mine wins almost every TvP with it on the ladder.
Giving a bronze lvl player the advice not to cheese but to learn playing a solid game, means advising him to learn the basics he needs to become a better player instead of relying on one or two strats to get a high league ranking.
As Sokrates says "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"
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On January 24 2011 20:49 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:38 TehForce wrote: 4gate blink dts 5gate are not really considered as cheese.
if you're very good at cheesing you can get into masters with it. i don't doubt that. but you will never win a tourney with it against the same players because after the first game they will activly look around and easily deny it.
Dts i said was the cheesy version with mass unscouted Dts Also, 1base 5gate is definitly cheese. 4 gate blink stalkers i have never seen anyone transition into anything else once it failed so i would say it falls under the category cheese/all in/whatever. i have seen failed 6pool rushes transitioned to an expo and macro game, does that mean 6pool isn't cheese?
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Besides your opener I'm not sure if what you are doing consitutes as cheese anymore, as I'm sure it takes a fair bit of skill to choose the build you want to transition to and some degree of macro to get the resources to support. I consider cheese more as a blind opening build to force a quick gg if it goes unscouted, and your combo cheese is more of a reactionary style-play to exploit your opponents openings
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On January 24 2011 21:29 OCsurfeR wrote: Stop complaining about it and dismissing those who use it as having no skill. As with anything, those that rely ONLY on cheese will never stay at the top. However, those that use it as part of their playbook to mix it up and keep their opponents guessing are great players.
Complaining is understandable if you take into account what every cheese player already admits. The cheesing player thinks he's gonna loose in a long run game. Maybe it's the map, the balance or that simply the other player is that much greater.
But it's undeniable that the cheesing player is trying to steal what it's not rightfully his. The best player deserves to win, the one with better control, decision making, ect.
The player that cheeses is just like a teacher. He decides the game he wants to play, he imposes it. If the better player, who is the better all arround player, is worst at defending the picky timming window or technique that the cheesing player chose, he looses.
If you think that a style of game that ignores most aspects of it by forcing a result early should be respected, by all means, do. I choose not to.
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I am going to have to disagree with a lot of the opinions here about cheese being for the unskilled.
I was a 2.5K Zerg in Diamond pre-patch. I had switched over to 2v2 because I felt like my macro style wasn't really being rewarded as much.
I have since switched to Toss, I have pretty much cheesed every other game/every third game (Proxy gates, 4gates, 2 gate stargates, 6 gate timing pushes etc) and have had really good success despite not know the race very well. Currently siting at 2.2K masters with a fairly big bonus pool.
All and all, I have good mechanics, but I cheese because a.) it is fun to make up crazy cheese strategies, b.) it is good micro practice, c.) I like to mix it up, and d.) revenge is sweet.
I am sure that if I didn't play anyone twice in a row, I could cheese every game and win just as many games as I do now.
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On January 25 2011 01:46 Geiko wrote: Not going to go in the age old debate of what is cheese, and what isn't. I use the term cheese for strategies which give you a high probability of success if your opponent doesn't scout it, and leaves you behind if it fails. I don't know at what level you guys are playing, but a scouted 5 gate against zerg or scouted 4 gate blink means that the build WILL fail, and you have to try something else. You are cutting probes so you are behind on economy. All in is a strategy you can't recover from if it fails (not necesseraly cheese). I really feel all the builds mentionned in the OP are cheeses.
Anyways, the point of the OP was that there is no correct ways (to learn how) to play. You shouldn't be telling bronze people to macro hard and never cheese, in fact, i believe the best way to learn the game is to use all sorts of cheesy one base plays at the beginning. These are insanely easy to execute at low level meaning you will be facing good players faster and learning more than staying in bronze getting 6pooled/ cannon rushed / etc... every single game. Have you diamond/master ever tried getting in a random custom game against some gold/silver/bronze players ? I do customs to test builds when none of my practise partners are around and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a decent game to learn from. All the games are silly one base pushes with people usualy leaving once it fails. Now imagine a bronze player following "good" advice and trying to macro up only to lose to some cannoning or 6 pooling.
Going to quote this for emphasis. You aren't going to learn to macro your way out of bronze/silver/etc. I rarely if ever saw early expos from anything but zergs, and even then, they just transitioned into basically all-ins. I see better macro play from gold 4 v 4 players than from gold 1 v 1ers.
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Wish zerg had more viable cheese strategies. I hate having to switch races to do a non 6 pool cheese build.
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whenever i get cheesed by a toss, i always jsut assume they'll go dts afterwards. this thread has verified my assumptions.
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Does that cannon-rush-in-your-opponents base for PvP on xel naga still work? The one where you block off your probe with 2 pylons behind the mineral line and then put a cannon that can attack the workers and nexus?
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geiko another informative post. i agree that its possible to make masters with cheese.
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Cheese is a tactic which if scouted fails.
The only true test of a players skill is how often he wins, whether he wins in 3 minutes or 30 doesn't affect it.
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the amount of cheese in ladder games forces the Z to play supersafe .. being the "victim-race" can be frustrating, however by the time you get used to be superparanoid scouting your own base (against P) instead that of your opponent. Crushing a cheese build definitely has a fun factor . Sad side is, if a P decides to play heavy macro, safe play can set you behind a lot..
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Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is.
I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance.
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On January 25 2011 04:33 GlocKomA wrote: I am sure that if I didn't play anyone twice in a row, I could cheese every game and win just as many games as I do now.
I am sure that if you play 3 games someone twice in a row, you would be murdered by a psycopath mass murderer magical elephant.
See how easy is to make claims with no backup whatsoever?
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What are the best TERRAN cheeses for each match-up?
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Masters doesn't mean shit. Ladder doesn't mean shit. And if you need proof...
My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.
you guys can keep debating on what will get you ladder wins, while good players are discussing about what will get them tournament wins.
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On January 25 2011 01:56 underdawg wrote: I'm not surprised. What would be interesting is if someone got highly ranked only knowing his cheese builds. I'd think that even pro cheesers must learn to play "standard" to perfect their cheese. I know of at least 8 people who are consistently in the top 200 who utilize cheese for the majority of their games. There are more, I'm sure, but I only personally know 8 of them. This is why I don't really care too much about ladder, it's not indicative of skill by any means.
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i dunno if you are gonna cheese every game id pick terran. more variety and its so much stronger.
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On January 25 2011 04:49 OfficerTJHooker wrote: Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is.
I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance.
There's no "problem", just an opinion that there's going to be a bigger and more difficult "ramp up" if you rank up with cheese and then need to learn to add in standard play than if you rank up with standard play.
Going to quote this for emphasis. You aren't going to learn to macro your way out of bronze/silver/etc. I rarely if ever saw early expos from anything but zergs, and even then, they just transitioned into basically all-ins. I see better macro play from gold 4 v 4 players than from gold 1 v 1ers.
Early expo isn't the only way to have solid macro. Picking a solid build that does reasonably well against most things and just macroing it solid gets you pretty far, whether that's a 3-gate expo or Forge FE. If you throw in a modicum of scouting, adaptation, positioning, and just general good decision making, it can get you to Diamond no problem.
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On January 25 2011 01:37 Hider wrote: Cheese = A tactic or strategi that is relatively easy counterable if scouted by the opponent.
All in = An attack which puts you far behind if you dont win the engagement.
Hence Cheese and all in can be the same thing. LIke proxy gating or cannon rushing (given that these are attacks). Though one can make a 2 base all in attack that is not easy countered by the opponent, and is therefore allinish but not cheesy.
All early game surprise attacks or 1-base all-ins are not created equal. That's why I don't agree w/ the OP's definition of cheese. For example people like to lump cheese w/ having no skill to execute, but all of the builds listed by the OP takes at least a decent amount of skill to execute, mostly micro-oriented, outside of cannon rushing in PvP. If you equate cheese to having no skill, you can't consider proxy rax/early marine aggression cheese when you look at how MKP can micro marines.
Personally I only consider cheeses to be things that rely on your opponent not knowing how to react to win. Things like 6-pool & cannon rushing. I don't even remember the last time I lost to a 6 pool (cannon rushing is a bit different in that you kind of have to know beforehand the optimal cannon placement locations, but once you learn that it is the same deal). 4-Gate Blink Stalkers OTOH is pretty hard to stop by a FE'ing zerg on certain maps, even if he knows it is coming well beforehand. Plus it takes a decent amount of micro to execute well.
And the whole crux of the OP's arguement is that people say not to learn cheese/all-ins because it doesn't make you a better player are wrong? Who are these people, because nobody really says that, he is just twisting words. For example I guarantee you there is no protoss in masters league that does not know how to 4-gate. Nearly everybody has/does 1-base timing attacks, even pros. He's basically arguing against nobody.
The real reason people say to work on your macro game is because that is the hardest thing to master. 1-base all-in timings attacks can be more or less mastered relatively quickly. At that point you should move on and work on other parts of your game, which for almost everybody is their macro game. This is the correct way of thinking if see the ladder as practice and want to improve overall. For those who think anybody cares what your ladder rating is, and if "cheesing" helps you inflate your rating because your macro is subpar comparatively, then go ahead. But it's a pointless endeavor because really, nobody cares what your rating is.
Of course if you just "cheese" because this is how you like to play the game that's another thing, nobody can tell you how to enjoy playing. But that's not the arguement the OP is trying to make.
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Played against a Toss that cannon rushed me earlier - defended it but ended up losing to proxy Stargate (guess it was his backup plan).
Checked his stats: 1,765 games played. Every single one of his most recent games was a cannon rush. Every single one. No exceptions. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if all 1,765 were cannon rushes.
It really is demotivating when you're laddering to come up against this kind of player.
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In other words, you have solid enough mechanics to get into masters just bitbybit with all-in build orders.
;D
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On January 24 2011 21:27 RabidSeagull wrote: I think PIQLIQ is a shining example of how a player can use cheese for almost a majority of his/her games and still end up being extremely high on the ladder, even though their marco skills and game sense, or whatever qualities you attribute to "normal game-play", are bad. I'm not trying to say I'm personally great at sc2 or anything, the point is just that it's better to play macro games but on ladder it seems like just cheesing actually can get you to the top, at least in terms of points gained.
Geiko, having cheese builds to throw into the mix is always a good idea especially if you're playing a tournament-style bo5 or something. It's always good to have the element of surprise on your side. That being said, I really hate your example of BitByBitprime. He's a horrible player that can only cheese; the BoxeR vs NaDa comparison was a far more relevant example. Ya but Piqliq isn't even slightly bad, hes actually a really strong player and ive seen him met on alot of streams where he ends up in macro games and wins. I"m not saying he doesnt cheese ALOT, he does, but hes also got some skills ive noticed. I'm always reluctant to talk about how bad a player that is in the GSL... im pretty sure he could tell you what cheese hes going and you wouldnt be able to stop it 90% of the time because hes actually a good player with good control.
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Those players exist because this methods work on ladder. Personally I go to ladder to get people throwing random stuff against a build, to see if it holds to the unexpected. Terrans use hellions I see if I can keep my drones at room temperature, I expand an the protoss has a forge, I see if this works or how my response should be, ect.
Most times, it doesn't work. Most times you get behind. Later, you learn and refine your play. The cheesing player gets almost nothing because is their win it's almost up to the other player. If they've seen this before, they will probably have a response, if they are playing safe, ect.
Cheeses are extremely bad if they are not designed around a specific game. It's just bad practice.
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On January 24 2011 23:45 TFB wrote: Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess.
Best analogy ever.
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On January 24 2011 21:44 Oishiiii wrote: Hi, i'm Terran and I got cheesed by a Protoss.
Early game, he sent one of his 6 probes in my base. Put 1 Pylo and 2 gates. Even if i see it, i can't do anything. He's first zealot come before my first rines. He kill some SCV while more zealots are coming... i'm getting far behind... if not dead.
How can a Terran deal with that ?
I can't go to an island (if there is one) and try to come back... the guy will chronoboost probe and make Voids. You usually just kill the pylon with 4-5 SCV's before it finishes. 4 scv's can kill a pylon, in time, if he makes another, kill it too. Remember that he has to fund the pylons you kill and the zealots, 4-5 SCV's is enough.
If all fails, put a bunker up.
Basically, what you do is:
1: You go to his base with the SCV that made the first depot. 2: If you see nothing built there, not even a pylon, or no gateway when it should be there, you know something fishy is going on, send two SCV's around to scout the inside of your base and try to get a baracks out quicker than you normally do (stop building SCV's for a while to save 150) 3: You will most likely scout either one pylon and two gates, warping, or a pylon and a forge warping, kill the pylon, the pylons are your top priority unless there are already cannons warping in, cannons have less health than pylons namely, all other buildings have more health, and they stop working without pylons. 4: Don't waste your time trying to kill the probe until you have a marine out, the probe is as fast as your SCV's, even if you get some shots of, its shields will just regenerate. 5: If all goes well, you will be able to kill off his pylons while you slowly tech up. and get some marines, wih marines, you can easily kill the probe that is continuing to make pylons, after that, you're win, he is extremely far behind.
On January 25 2011 07:38 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 23:45 TFB wrote: Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess.
Best analogy ever. Indeed, I am in love with it.
The objective of SC2 is not to have the most money per minute income, nor is it to have slickest micro, or the best scouting, the objective is to let the other quit, or destroy all of his buildings. All other things are just means to that end, a good SC2 player is defined as a player exceptional at accomplishing the objectives, by whatever means.
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One of the main reasons cheese works up into the masters league is people straight copy pro-players builds from tournaments alot of the time, right down to the scouting timing. But people cheese much more frequently on the ladder, so picking an earlier scout timing and a safer build makes more sense.
Seriously I've opened gateway forge and sometimes even forge gateway several times and burned cheesers in some really hilarious ways.
So like others have said, you need to play different on ladder than when you're in a tournament, the tournament players all know how to play standard where as on the ladder there are large portions of players who have no clue and won't.
Edit: Most "safer" builds cost negligible amounts of macro anyway, my best example is forge gateway, if you see your opponent is going for a FE, you can just as easily plop yours down and not fall noticeably behind. early pool builds work much the same way, you can get a queen out earlier and pump drones, which in terms of macro, puts it at eye level with hatch first timing (isn't hatch first timing actually weaker in terms of macro than pool first... just easier to defend? I dunno I don't play zerg).
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On January 25 2011 04:49 OfficerTJHooker wrote: Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is.
I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance.
The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless.
It's not that cheese can't net you wins. It's that it's just a flimsy strategy that will lose to competent players. If you cheese and the opponent loses, then that's because the opponent screwed up. Not because you're good at the game.
I mean look at IdrA and Jinro: + Show Spoiler +ffs, IdrA lost because Jinro accidentally canceled his marine. That's a flimsy strategy, and exactly why IdrA doesn't rely on cheese. It's flimsy.
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On January 25 2011 10:31 DoubleReed wrote: The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless.
You will improve, though. At cheesing.
Who are you to say what's the right way to play the game?
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On January 25 2011 10:36 .Aar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 10:31 DoubleReed wrote: The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless. You will improve, though. At cheesing. Who are you to say what's the right way to play the game?
Seriously, the skill cap of cheesing is not exactly orbital...
I never said that cheesing is "incorrect." A win is a win. I said its flimsy. It doesn't work against competent players. It only works if the opponent makes glaring errors. I didn't say it doesn't work.
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Cheese is actually a good thing to practise because executing a good cheese requires fast micro and good multi-tasking.
For example, one of the best ways to learn how to successfully macro while microing is to do a lot of proxy 2gating, because maintaining constant zealot production, using all your chronoboost, and still microing your zealots properly is key to succeeding with that build, and while the build itself isn't going to help you win consistently at high levels, it can help you develop a valuable skill.
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I want to actually make masters... and this makes me sad. haha
Grats on masters... that's pretty intense though.
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In SC2 it is totally viable to all-in/cheese and beat pros. The problem only arises in the highest level of play, where your foes know you. If they know you are a cheeser it won't be easy.
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[B]These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void ray
that gave me a real good laugh because its sad and it actually does work. I'm pretty sure there was a thread that had something to do with 100 games of 4gate in all matchups. Some people did just that and got from like 2k diamond to 2800+ diamond (this was before master league) in those 100 games. It's seriously ridiculous how cheese/1base strats are just so strong. This is especially for protoss as if 1 cheese fails or even does considerable damage(say, a proxy zealot vs terran) you can just transition(into 4gate) and win anyway.
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: So i often hear diamond and master players tell bronze people how bad it is to cheese and how it won't get them to improve their game. They usualy tell them they need to improve their macro beacuse eventualy, people will learn to counter cheese.
Well, anyways, what are your thoughts on cheesing ? Is there really a skill cap or could you potentialy compete at the highest level using massive amounts of cheese (ActionJesuz ?)
edit : when i say Dts, i don't mean containing your opponent with one or 2 Dts to expand safely, i mean getting 7-8 Dts to snipe both his CC/nexus/hatch
You can keep cheesing, but eventually you're gonna get capped (once you reach better players)by your skill,which will never improve as long you don't play macro games.
My humble experience:
I never played Bw 1v1, just started to play seriously in Sc2. As P first learned the tech tree, then the basic strat: 4 gate. I keep 4gating until i reach a skill cap at diamond. I could not stop losing!! Then i started to play macro games, macro strats. At the begining, i was still losing. Until some day, i just started to win, some, then a lot. Now i'm a happy macro 2800 master.
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Bitbybit.Prime got pretty high level with just cheesing x]
I think it really comes down to the level of the players; at a high enough level, though, any good player will scout the cheese and counter it properly. I can't imagine you reaching the top, but I think you'd get pretty far...
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bitbybit definitely proved all-in cheesy style of play can get you pretty far. The question is can it keep you there? If the question is in regard of the masters league, yea probably. If you are a tournament player, then probably not. If all you do is ladder then who cares. Nobody is gonna study your game and recognize your ID when they play you.
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you're assuming being in masters makes you a good player.
there are a lot of technically bad players in masters league.
and most of them are there just due to their one-dimensional abuses...
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cannon rush, 6 pool, scv rush, are the true cheese builds. Most after that is just good BO and timing attacks.
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As far as what constitutes the "right" way and "wrong" way to play the game, I like David Kim's comments during the interview he gave for GSL (season 3 I believe it was, or maybe the introduction to season 4, actually). He said some players are more micro based, and some players are more macro based. I think this demonstrates a level of diplomacy that most TLers would benefit from incorporating in their own posts.
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On January 24 2011 20:54 Mercury- wrote: Most of that isn't even cheese, Toss is just kinda OP.
User was warned for this post
Lol yeah the admin warned me for making a comment about why toss shouldn't go Collosi tech tree... Must be a Toss Lover O_o bahahaha
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On January 25 2011 07:38 pirsq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 23:45 TFB wrote: Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess.
Best analogy ever.
Erm, sorry, that's not even an analogy, much less an argument from analogy. Unfortunately, the idea of analogies are as abused and twisted on the internet as much as the idea of irony.
Chess and SC2 are near impossible to make actual arguments from analogy with, because they're not even close to analogous systems.
Chess relies on full knowledge of your opponent's current status and where and what all his pieces can do, at all times.
SC2, and cheese in particular, relies on the *exact opposite* which is why it's generally considered -- with good reason -- to be skilless, where chess is considered a game of skill.
A game of chess, to beat you opponent, requires both of you to have all knowledge of the playboard, and beat him with proper use of your 'units' if you will.
SC2 cheese requires the exact opposite, it requires you not to be seen and for a quick win in which the opponent cannot react to, due to a lack of knowledge of where the units are. This is fundamentally the opposite of why chess is a game of skill. Chess is a game of skill because both players have the same knowledge and use tactical choices to beat the other player's movements.
If both players had full vision of each other, map-hack style, then perhaps the statement would be closer to an analogy, but then you have to ask yourself -- if both players could see exactly what the other player was doing, would cheese ever win a game?
And that, is why it is skilless, and why chess is not, and why you cannot use the two in a real analogy, much less one defending cheese.
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the analogy for chess would be sneaking two moves at once and checkmating him while he isn't looking. hahaha since cheese relies on the opponent not scouting
j/k (before some nerd gets all serious)
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On January 25 2011 14:26 W2 wrote:the analogy for chess would be sneaking two moves at once and checkmating him while he isn't looking. hahaha since cheese relies on the opponent not scouting j/k (before some nerd gets all serious)
besides the fact that double-moving in chess while your opponent isnt looking is against the rules and cheese in SC2 isnt, thats actually a pretty apt analogy, I like it.
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you can get to the top levels of play with nothing but cheese if you are a good player. All you have to do is have a good sense of your opponent by how he reacts to your initial cheese and it will help you decide what you transition into for your next type of cheese.
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It's schemantics, but many of those are allins not cheese. Regardless...your dedication to cheesing is...admirable. Well, no, it not really.
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On January 25 2011 14:16 TheRealzz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:54 Mercury- wrote: Most of that isn't even cheese, Toss is just kinda OP.
User was warned for this post Lol yeah the admin warned me for making a comment about why toss shouldn't go Collosi tech tree... Must be a Toss Lover O_o bahahaha
Saying that protoss is OP on TL without even debating why isn't a very good idea. The game is very balanced. Z imho has somewhat higher risk/reward, but that's just how it is.
Cheese can get you into any league, but it won't make you a better player, as you basically rely on you opponent not knowing how to hold it off, rather than your own skill. That's my view on it atleast.
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Cheese may very well work to infinity against random strangers on ladder, but in tournaments where people know you and your style it won't. It'd work even less when playing the same opponent many times, like "3 of 5" matches, or against the practice partners or friends that you play with a lot. And near the top of the ladders, people eventually get to know each other.
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what zerg cheeses are there?
7rr? 6pool? any more?
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On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there?
7rr? 6pool? any more?
Zerg mass mutalisk macro style :p
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On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there?
7rr? 6pool? any more? Baneling bust all in.
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On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there?
7rr? 6pool? any more?
1 base ultras.
i have seen it in team games..
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On January 24 2011 22:40 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:37 traca wrote: your point seems to be it s easy to cheese your way into masters league, well it s even easier to get into masters with standart solid build And, for the record, being in the top 2% of a million person playerbase isn't even marginally impressive.
i most definitely disagree.
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We all know that cheese is a part of Starcraft, but I am constantly reminded how BIG of a part of Starcraft it is. PiQLiQ has gotten to #1 basically by cheesing, and we even had a player in the biggest tournament in the world (BitByBit) basically cheesing exclusively.
I'm starting to wonder if this represents a huge flaw in game design. Cheese isn't necessarily detrimental to a game but it's open for discussion when you can get that kind of success with it.
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On January 25 2011 10:31 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 04:49 OfficerTJHooker wrote: Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is.
I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance. The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless. It's not that cheese can't net you wins. It's that it's just a flimsy strategy that will lose to competent players. If you cheese and the opponent loses, then that's because the opponent screwed up. Not because you're good at the game. I mean look at IdrA and Jinro: + Show Spoiler +ffs, IdrA lost because Jinro accidentally canceled his marine. That's a flimsy strategy, and exactly why IdrA doesn't rely on cheese. It's flimsy. So the GSL is full of bad players I read from this?
Also, you could just as well say that if you macro all the time, you will lose against players that outmacro you but can't hold of a 6pool.
Being able to hold of a 6pool is part of the game.
IdrA's play is also usually really one-dimensional, he's really good at making drones, a really useful skill toi have.
On the other side are players like HayprO and Morrow, who lose a lot because they made too many drones, is their macro 'good' then, any person can just make drones when they should be making attacking units? If anything, they take a risk and hope the other person doesn't attack.
On January 25 2011 14:21 Lochat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 07:38 pirsq wrote:On January 24 2011 23:45 TFB wrote: Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess.
Best analogy ever. A game of chess, to beat you opponent, requires both of you to have all knowledge of the playboard, and beat him with proper use of your 'units' if you will. Nope, it requires your opponent to make a mistake. Games of chess are rarely won by brilliant moves, even at the highest level, they are won by questionable moves by the opposing party.
SC2 cheese requires the exact opposite, it requires you not to be seen and for a quick win in which the opponent cannot react to, due to a lack of knowledge of where the units are. This is fundamentally the opposite of why chess is a game of skill. Chess is a game of skill because both players have the same knowledge and use tactical choices to beat the other player's movements. So what you say is that SC2 would fair better without a fog of war?
If both players had full vision of each other, map-hack style, then perhaps the statement would be closer to an analogy, but then you have to ask yourself -- if both players could see exactly what the other player was doing, would cheese ever win a game? Would taking an expansion ever win the game then?
And that, is why it is skilless, and why chess is not, and why you cannot use the two in a real analogy, much less one defending cheese. Ah, so taking an expansion is skillells, as is droning up hard, as is taking a watchtower, as is knowing how to scout, as is knowing how to hide your spire, as is observer placement and supply depot placement, after all, it doesn't win you a game anymore in a maphack-style variant of SC2.
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if this was a Terran guide it would be labled Terran timing push guide
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France12466 Posts
Funny thing is that anyone in diamond/masters who doesn't even play toss as his main race can probably create an account and become master with protoss all in/cheeses.
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On January 25 2011 20:33 Poopi wrote: Funny thing is that anyone in diamond/masters who doesn't even play toss as his main race can probably create an account and become master with protoss all in/cheeses.
I did it with a spare account, I main Z at the time with no P experience at all.
Diamond in 40 or so games using proxy 2gate vs all races, masters league took 30 games after the patch, using a mix of proxy 2gate and 4gate vs all races.
The funny thing is, all the protoss on my friend list in masters/diamond, when i check their match history, all the games are like 7-8 mins, usually 4gates.. They get very very defensive when you ask them about it.. they "swear to god" that they only 4gate 5-10% of their games, when in reality its like 80% of their wins
It does feel like the race is holding up these players compared to T/Z.
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On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there?
7rr? 6pool? any more? 7 pool 8 pool 9 pool 10 pool 11 pool proxy hatch...
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On January 25 2011 20:40 tchan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 18:30 albis wrote: what zerg cheeses are there?
7rr? 6pool? any more? 7 pool 8 pool 9 pool 10 pool 11 pool proxy hatch...
I disagree, that 11 pool is cheese. It may not be as economic as other oppenings, but I wouldn't say that it is really cheese.
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I'm on the verse of masters and protoss cheese is all I face. Thanks.
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On January 25 2011 19:58 iEchoic wrote: We all know that cheese is a part of Starcraft, but I am constantly reminded how BIG of a part of Starcraft it is. PiQLiQ has gotten to #1 basically by cheesing, and we even had a player in the biggest tournament in the world (BitByBit) basically cheesing exclusively.
I'm starting to wonder if this represents a huge flaw in game design. Cheese isn't necessarily detrimental to a game but it's open for discussion when you can get that kind of success with it.
think BBB was more of a one hit wonder since people werent used to such relentless allin builds. what he does is usually countered well now that people are used to it.
but yeah its something to think about. its sad when you see someone who 100% 4gates/3gatevoid with 60 apm in highish masters. also sad when i play vs a buddy with t/z (my mainraces i ladder with) and we go 50/50 and then i play P,my worst race, only try to cheese/allin as hard as possible and suddenly win 4 games in a row.
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To the chess/sc2 discussion: how 'bout a map without the fog of war? Could produce some interesting (and boring) games
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I say play any style you like and have most fun with, and try to do it as well as you can, and train the skillset you need for your style.
Criticising stylistic choices is stupid, especially when those choices work.
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On January 25 2011 20:56 Tibson wrote:To the chess/sc2 discussion: how 'bout a map without the fog of war? Could produce some interesting (and boring) games
Neither. All you would see is 1 basing as expanding would be virtually impossible.
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On January 25 2011 20:07 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 10:31 DoubleReed wrote:On January 25 2011 04:49 OfficerTJHooker wrote: Honestly, if you're good at cheese, and you can consistently win games with it, I don't see what the problem is.
I guess the only problem is what some other people already pointed out, that in tournaments people start to prepare for cheese, which gives them like an instant 70% additional win chance. The problem is simply you won't improve. Against players who fend off the cheese you are completely helpless. It's not that cheese can't net you wins. It's that it's just a flimsy strategy that will lose to competent players. If you cheese and the opponent loses, then that's because the opponent screwed up. Not because you're good at the game. I mean look at IdrA and Jinro: + Show Spoiler +ffs, IdrA lost because Jinro accidentally canceled his marine. That's a flimsy strategy, and exactly why IdrA doesn't rely on cheese. It's flimsy. So the GSL is full of bad players I read from this? Also, you could just as well say that if you macro all the time, you will lose against players that outmacro you but can't hold of a 6pool. Being able to hold of a 6pool is part of the game. IdrA's play is also usually really one-dimensional, he's really good at making drones, a really useful skill toi have. On the other side are players like HayprO and Morrow, who lose a lot because they made too many drones, is their macro 'good' then, any person can just make drones when they should be making attacking units? If anything, they take a risk and hope the other person doesn't attack. Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 14:21 Lochat wrote:On January 25 2011 07:38 pirsq wrote:On January 24 2011 23:45 TFB wrote: Complaining about cheese itself as a "not very good" tactic is a little bit like saying "yeah, but that doesn't count as I've still got most of my pieces" to an early loss in chess.
Best analogy ever. A game of chess, to beat you opponent, requires both of you to have all knowledge of the playboard, and beat him with proper use of your 'units' if you will. Nope, it requires your opponent to make a mistake. Games of chess are rarely won by brilliant moves, even at the highest level, they are won by questionable moves by the opposing party. Show nested quote +SC2 cheese requires the exact opposite, it requires you not to be seen and for a quick win in which the opponent cannot react to, due to a lack of knowledge of where the units are. This is fundamentally the opposite of why chess is a game of skill. Chess is a game of skill because both players have the same knowledge and use tactical choices to beat the other player's movements. So what you say is that SC2 would fair better without a fog of war? Show nested quote +If both players had full vision of each other, map-hack style, then perhaps the statement would be closer to an analogy, but then you have to ask yourself -- if both players could see exactly what the other player was doing, would cheese ever win a game? Would taking an expansion ever win the game then? Show nested quote +And that, is why it is skilless, and why chess is not, and why you cannot use the two in a real analogy, much less one defending cheese. Ah, so taking an expansion is skillells, as is droning up hard, as is taking a watchtower, as is knowing how to scout, as is knowing how to hide your spire, as is observer placement and supply depot placement, after all, it doesn't win you a game anymore in a maphack-style variant of SC2.
I don't see what point u r trying to make here. Lochat disproved that horrible analogy, while u defend the mechanics of sc2. Completely different things.
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On the other hand macro game as protoss are so painfull... gateway units are OP (thx warp) unit 7-8min, but then toss need to reach t3 to fight out of his base :/ add, toss don't have cool harass like T or insane mobility like Z (prism+zeal is too expensive imo), or macro good mechanism - chronoboosting too much probes make your army weak cause you need lots of mineral to make probes+pylon -
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France12466 Posts
On January 25 2011 21:05 imbecile wrote: I say play any style you like and have most fun with, and try to do it as well as you can, and train the skillset you need for your style.
Criticising stylistic choices is stupid, especially when those choices work. Cheeses/allins is a stylistic choice? That works cuz protoss is broken from a long time and they still get buffed, it's a bit sad.
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On January 25 2011 20:37 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:33 Poopi wrote: Funny thing is that anyone in diamond/masters who doesn't even play toss as his main race can probably create an account and become master with protoss all in/cheeses. I did it with a spare account, I main Z at the time with no P experience at all. Diamond in 40 or so games using proxy 2gate vs all races, masters league took 30 games after the patch, using a mix of proxy 2gate and 4gate vs all races. The funny thing is, all the protoss on my friend list in masters/diamond, when i check their match history, all the games are like 7-8 mins, usually 4gates.. They get very very defensive when you ask them about it.. they "swear to god" that they only 4gate 5-10% of their games, when in reality its like 80% of their wins It does feel like the race is holding up these players compared to T/Z.
Yes the problem is that most Protoss cheese is so very easy to execute, yet powerful and with very little drawback if it does not work. If a Protoss player manages to go pylon->Gateway in a Terran players base he will win the game. But if the Terran players notices and attacks the pylon before the gateway is finished he can just cancel the Gateway without having lost anything.
Same thing if he goes chronobosted early zealots on a small map, he attacks you just as get your first marine out, you must micro like hell to not lose the game right there while Protoss can just A-move into your base. And if his attack does not work he is still on even grounds + have scouting information on your base.
Also warpgates are also a kind of cheese since it negates the defenders advantage completely. In Age of Empires if you wanted to get units to the front faster you needed a forward base and if you lost that forward base you had a real disadvantage. In SC2 if you destroy his forward pylon he has lost almost nothing.
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On January 25 2011 21:05 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:56 Tibson wrote:To the chess/sc2 discussion: how 'bout a map without the fog of war? Could produce some interesting (and boring) games Neither. All you would see is 1 basing as expanding would be virtually impossible.
There was a maphack thread in the BW forums, specifically relating to zvz, where the guy said that he played someone and both of them used maphacks. They had something like 6 hatcheries/bases each before they put down a spawning pool, because they could see what their opponent was doing.
In zvz at least you would get more expansions. As it is, a lot of people on Scrap, Metal and LT close air have the overlord sitting over their opponents base before it's pool time, and they can respond to what the opponent does (oh he got a pool -> I'll get another drone then get my pool) in order to get an advantage early on.
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so 3 gate rush 4 gate
still works vs all races?
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On January 25 2011 21:48 snafulator wrote: so 3 gate rush 4 gate
still works vs all races?
proxy gate works better vs terran
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On January 25 2011 21:48 snafulator wrote: so 3 gate rush 4 gate
still works vs all races?
My TvP games are 60% of the time 4gate/3gate robo allins, so obviously people are still winning with it else they wouldn't be doing it. 3gate robo is more of a PvT thing because of the robo and how immortals just eat bunkers/marauders I guess ZvP is much more normal 4 gates.
And DT's are actually a big thing ladder these days, I would say 1/10 games the P goes DT's, but just in such a way that he is basicly hoping for the DT's to win on their own.
(this is mid to high diamond, could be different in master's league)
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On January 25 2011 20:07 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Nope, it requires your opponent to make a mistake. Games of chess are rarely won by brilliant moves, even at the highest level, they are won by questionable moves by the opposing party.
So what you say is that SC2 would fair better without a fog of war?
Ah, so taking an expansion is skillells, as is droning up hard, as is taking a watchtower, as is knowing how to scout, as is knowing how to hide your spire, as is observer placement and supply depot placement, after all, it doesn't win you a game anymore in a maphack-style variant of SC2.
As someone with a BA in philosophy with a focus in logic, I'd very much appreciate you to keep the logical fallacies to a minimum, if you want to have a discussion.
It's pretty obvious the point of my post was the idea of using an analogy between chess and cheese was absurd, nor did I claim the fog war was inherently bad. It would be bad in chess, it's not bad in SC2, because they are completely different games. Again, they're not analogous.
As for your statement about your opponent making a mistake, last I checked, not making a mistake for a very long time happens to be what makes someone good at something. Making mistakes often is what happens to people who are not good at something. Being bad at chess means you make lots of mistakes (though ignorance or bad play, either way), being good means you don't make mistakes -- and exploit the opponents, though one could probably call not exploiting those mistakes a mistake in itself, but then we're down into Inception areas.
No one claimed that any of those things were skilless, again, chess and SC2 are not analogous systems, which was the entire point of my initial post. I'm not sure, exactly, why you're utterly ignoring my point to... defend cheese, I guess? I'm not sure why you're attacking straw men.
It is, however, the point chess is considered a skill game due to the fact chess is a static system in which both players have the same knowledge and resources. SC2 isn't analogous, but if it was, the closest thing would be that of a long macro game, rather than cheese, still the comparison is pretty much moot, since they're not really similar at all.
If you want to attack my fairly undefended statement that cheese is skilless, you're more than welcome to, I admit I didn't back the point out but rather made it an implicit (and explicit, really) statement. However, I'm not sure why you'd defend cheese.
Cheese is a tactic with ends or wins the game with little time and minimal effort. It takes the vast majority of strategy out of a strategy game, unless you consider "scouting" the epitome of strategy (it's important, however I don't think I want to play a RTScouting game.) While the term is abused quite a bit, cheese is not only bad because it allows bad players to win (which is probably a hint it requires significantly less skill, I think there was a post about a bronze league guy going to platinum on the front page -- or was by only proxy-gate cheesing non-stop) due to a comparatively minor lack of skill (not scouting their entire base at the right time) compared to an overwhelming lack of competence by the cheeser, but...
It. Removes. The. Fun. From. A. Video. Game. From my perspective, and I'm sure many others, I'd wager the majority of SC2 players, though I have no data for that.
I can see cheese as being used to win in a tourney and being effective, and in pro players cheese is in fact less cheesy, oddly enough, because it doesn't inherently put the worse of the two players at a comparative advantage -- though it still may. Doing it on the ladder, however, as far as I'm concerned, bad for the game. Doing something like that in a game, to get arbitrary points that serve no real reward... is... I just can't comprehend why someone would do that on a regular basis on a game you're supposed to be playing for fun. Maybe it's simply something I can't relate to and the problem is with me, but I can't see why people would play a video game, for fun, then cheese for no rewards.
Also, wow that's a long post.
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On January 25 2011 21:56 Icx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 21:48 snafulator wrote: so 3 gate rush 4 gate
still works vs all races? My TvP games are 60% of the time 4gate/3gate robo allins, so obviously people are still winning with it else they wouldn't be doing it. 3gate robo is more of a PvT thing because of the robo and how immortals just eat bunkers/marauders I guess ZvP is much more normal 4 gates. And DT's are actually a big thing ladder these days, I would say 1/10 games the P goes DT's, but just in such a way that he is basicly hoping for the DT's to win on their own. (this is mid to high diamond, could be different in master's league) I'd rather see DTs than banshees any day. Both are potentially game ending, but going DTs at least puts you substantially behind, while getting banshees is just a unit on a Ts normal tech route. At worst he wasted 200/200 on cloak, and maybe the 50/25 on the tech lab, but 99% of Ts get a starport anyways, and banshees are great units even without cloak.
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On January 25 2011 21:41 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:37 Scrimpton wrote:On January 25 2011 20:33 Poopi wrote: Funny thing is that anyone in diamond/masters who doesn't even play toss as his main race can probably create an account and become master with protoss all in/cheeses. I did it with a spare account, I main Z at the time with no P experience at all. Diamond in 40 or so games using proxy 2gate vs all races, masters league took 30 games after the patch, using a mix of proxy 2gate and 4gate vs all races. The funny thing is, all the protoss on my friend list in masters/diamond, when i check their match history, all the games are like 7-8 mins, usually 4gates.. They get very very defensive when you ask them about it.. they "swear to god" that they only 4gate 5-10% of their games, when in reality its like 80% of their wins It does feel like the race is holding up these players compared to T/Z. Yes the problem is that most Protoss cheese is so very easy to execute, yet powerful and with very little drawback if it does not work. If a Protoss player manages to go pylon->Gateway in a Terran players base he will win the game. But if the Terran players notices and attacks the pylon before the gateway is finished he can just cancel the Gateway without having lost anything. Same thing if he goes chronobosted early zealots on a small map, he attacks you just as get your first marine out, you must micro like hell to not lose the game right there while Protoss can just A-move into your base. And if his attack does not work he is still on even grounds + have scouting information on your base. Also warpgates are also a kind of cheese since it negates the defenders advantage completely. In Age of Empires if you wanted to get units to the front faster you needed a forward base and if you lost that forward base you had a real disadvantage. In SC2 if you destroy his forward pylon he has lost almost nothing.
I dunno.. I've seen plenty of pro games where a proxy gate has lead to defeat. You make it sound like it's some kind of wonder build. Also it's pretty standard to scout your own base..
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On January 25 2011 21:05 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:56 Tibson wrote:To the chess/sc2 discussion: how 'bout a map without the fog of war? Could produce some interesting (and boring) games Neither. All you would see is 1 basing as expanding would be virtually impossible.
In ZvZ you would only see expanding. The first one building units falls behind in macro and looses.
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: vs Zerg : -pylon wall in + cannon -4 gate blink stalkers -Dts -5 gate
vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy -Dts
vs Protoss: -modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate
I'm not really sure how the underlined builds count as cheese. It seems like you really stretched the meaning of 'cheese' in order to create this discussion with a cute title. I'm surprised you were able to get to Master's using only these builds, but just because these builds are a bit gimmicky doesn't make them cheese. I find it perplexing that you apparently have the skills to get into Master's but your definition of cheese reminds me of Bronze league players. Kudos regardless.
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France12466 Posts
I just get promoted to diamond on a friend account with 2gate proxy against some terran (I dont play toss), without micro or anything. Masters soon o/, thx to the easy strong race.
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On January 25 2011 22:50 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: vs Zerg : -pylon wall in + cannon -4 gate blink stalkers -Dts -5 gate
vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy -Dts
vs Protoss: -modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate
I'm not really sure how the underlined builds count as cheese. It seems like you really stretched the meaning of 'cheese' in order to create this discussion with a cute title. I'm surprised you were able to get to Master's using only these builds, but just because these builds are a bit gimmicky doesn't make them cheese. I find it perplexing that you apparently have the skills to get into Master's but your definition of cheese reminds me of Bronze league players. Kudos regardless.
Already answered to this.
Cheese = a strategy that if scouted will produce no tangible results and put you behind.
If my opponent has scouted DTs, i'm pretty sure that rushing in his base with 7-8 DTs is going to fail miserably.
If my opponent scouts my hidden 3 gates (making 5 total), and i try to push anyway, i'll have a fun time watching my gateway units die to 5 spine crawlers. Same thing for 4 gate blink stalkers.
Most smart people would not procede to massing DTs, or blink stalkers, or army out of 5 gate once scouted and try to transition into something else. That doesn't mean the initial plan was not cheesy.
I can place a proxy pylon in my opponent's base and hope he won't see it and too bad if he does. The ability to transition doesn't take away the cheesiness.
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If it's a cheesy metagame, then if you're decent you win so many free games from early scouts.
On SEA which is cheesy as Korea, I routinely scout on or before 11. I take an eco-hit, but I win SO MANY games with fast scouted cheese, easily worth it.
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Is there really a skill cap or could you potentialy compete at the highest level using massive amounts of cheese (ActionJesuz ?) The answer to the question at the end of your post can be found at the beginning of your post.
eventualy, people will learn to counter cheese.
Anyways, cheesing should still be a part of your repertoire. Being unpredictable is an important part of playing at the high level.
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On January 25 2011 23:01 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 22:50 Obsolescence wrote:On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: vs Zerg : -pylon wall in + cannon -4 gate blink stalkers -Dts -5 gate
vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy -Dts
vs Protoss: -modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate
I'm not really sure how the underlined builds count as cheese. It seems like you really stretched the meaning of 'cheese' in order to create this discussion with a cute title. I'm surprised you were able to get to Master's using only these builds, but just because these builds are a bit gimmicky doesn't make them cheese. I find it perplexing that you apparently have the skills to get into Master's but your definition of cheese reminds me of Bronze league players. Kudos regardless. Already answered to this. Cheese = a strategy that if scouted will produce no tangible results and put you behind. If my opponent has scouted DTs, i'm pretty sure that rushing in his base with 7-8 DTs is going to fail miserably. If my opponent scouts my hidden 3 gates (making 5 total), and i try to push anyway, i'll have a fun time watching my gateway units die to 5 spine crawlers. Same thing for 4 gate blink stalkers. Most smart people would not procede to massing DTs, or blink stalkers, or army out of 5 gate once scouted and try to transition into something else. That doesn't mean the initial plan was not cheesy. I can place a proxy pylon in my opponent's base and hope he won't see it and too bad if he does. The ability to transition doesn't take away the cheesiness.
Release your cheese account name #EU and a pack of replays please. :o You can find them in the "Unsaved" folder. Thanks.
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These look more like all-ins than cheese too me, and the difference can often be very small at times between the two, but it is still there. Personally I really am not at all surprised this happened, high Diamond and Master league are so often touted as the 'place where the best players in the world play', and on the Korean server that would probably be true. In the case of the other servers the vast vast vast majority of players even in Master league are playing at a level well below what the given league intended it is quite often that a mid-platinum player who plays occasionally but studies pro play hard could in a standard/macro game totally destroy a Master league player in every conceivable way. The problem isn't balance, it is even necessarily player skill, the problem is, and will continue to be - the map pool. One cannot play exclusively on relatively small maps with rush favored layouts and expect play other than hard, all-in rushes to occur - except from pro-gamer level players.
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most of this isnt even cheese. Proxy gate, cannon rush, korean 4 gate is what I would consider cheese. 4 gate or DTs or blink stalkers...not even close to cheese.
I am not a great player. I am in diamond but I dont have a lot of games played. I watch a lot of streams and GSL. I 4-gate every game I can. I dont see a reason to stop until it doesnt win anymore. A win is a win especially on ladder.
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I think it will take sometime until people stop cheeseing. In the begainning of BW, there are a lot of cheese too. But people will eventually figure the game and became less effective.
untile then, we just have to suffer from all the bad game.
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This is not so much "cheese to master" as it is "can you perform well executed one base plays to master" and the answer is of course yes. Telling bronze leaguers to do plays like this isn't a bad idea at all, as it is much easier to learn the game with shorter build orders. It's far easier for a new player to learn how to 4 gate than 3 gate expand into collosus.
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Can someone compete at high level with only cheese? Yes, just look at BitByBitPrime, he cheeses most or all of his games pulling scv's and winning quite a bit. He got to the semi's or finals of the gsl, don't remember. Is he a respected player with a ton of fans trying to learn to play like him? NO!
You can win with just cheese and this is a game. If you have fun cheesing, do it. But you just won't get as much respect as a "solid" macro player would.
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On January 26 2011 05:32 Krayze wrote: Can someone compete at high level with only cheese? Yes, just look at BitByBitPrime, he cheeses most or all of his games pulling scv's and winning quite a bit. He got to the semi's or finals of the gsl, don't remember. Is he a respected player with a ton of fans trying to learn to play like him? NO!
You can win with just cheese and this is a game. If you have fun cheesing, do it. But you just won't get as much respect as a "solid" macro player would.
My dreams are shattered, I was hoping that Id be a fan favorite player. Calm down, we are just a bunch of dudes who want to play starcraft. I am not actually trying to become a starcraft progamer who is respected by the starcraft community and has thousands of fans.
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... People keep saying this means cheese takes skill, what it really means is that cheese takes so much skill to stop that it still works even at the top of the ladder,
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Also SichuanPanda mid platinum players are terrible masters players are amazing and diamond, my skill level, is mediocre at best but still miles ahead of platinum
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I just want to say that the definitions of what is what make topics like this impossible to quantify. The original poster counted strats (proxy air) as cheese when even pros don't think they are (Jinro said the proxy starport was not cheese by MKP).
We'll never agree, but there are
1) Cheeses (offensive cannons, 6 pool, etc) 2) 1 Base all ins (scv + marines, Korean 4 gate, etc) 3) Early Timing Rushes (5 roach rush, 4 gate, stim push) 4) Early Tech Rushes (banshee rush, dt rush, etc) 5) Early macro builds (1 rax expo, 15 hatch, gateway/forge expo)
We can argue a bit about what goes where, but these are definitely different concepts.
For me "Cheese" is any opening strategy that is an all in or close to an all in that would turbo lose if the opponent was using a map hack. Obviously offensive cannons, 6 pool (obviously would lose to say 9 pool or 9 pylon 10 forge or whatever terran does against it) And then hybrids of all of those. I reject the Tastosis "2 base all in" when they are often are talking about someone who either is 2 base maxing out OR doing an involved 2 base timing push.
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Cheese is almost always early game and by the time you get DT it is considered mid game, same goes for void rays.
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Why did you need to prove this? BitbyBit.Prime got into the GSL...
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On January 26 2011 12:37 LAN-f34r wrote: Why did you need to prove this? BitbyBit.Prime got into the GSL... BitbyBit doesn't cheese. He 1-base all-ins.
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On January 30 2011 08:58 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 12:37 LAN-f34r wrote: Why did you need to prove this? BitbyBit.Prime got into the GSL... BitbyBit doesn't cheese. He 1-base all-ins.
That's sorta like saying, "He doesn't cheese, he Goudas"
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1 base isnt cheese TvP. toss has lots of time to scout with obs and prepare his defense
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If you're talking about pure cheese, it will be very hard to get to masters on pure cheese alone. I'm assuming your talking about cheese and not all in/semi all in's.
As you get up to masters, players get far better at scouting/knowing how to "read" a build order. For example, while you can get up to masters on 4 gates(unfortunately), I doubt someone could dt rush every game and get to top masters. '
Of course, really its the top masters, probably top 2%, that cheese, that pure cheese alone can't work.
So by your "cheeses":
-pylon wall in + cannon Already known to be a great strat, your not showing anything here. Plus its been patched. Finally its not cheese because even if scouted you can't stop it. You have to stop it then and there.
-4 gate blink stalkers Not really so much a "cheese" as this would be an all in. And everyone knows that you can get to masters through pure 4 gates (unfortunately.) -Dts
-5 gate See above(4 gate)
vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy-Okay, its cheese, but are you sure terrans are losing to this? I doubt you would win many games just on this higher up. -Dts
vs Protoss
-modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate Yeah PvP is cheese fest, in fact playing standard is far harder. While technically if you play a matchup that's full of cheese, you are getting to masters on "cheese" alone, this doesn't raelly count. I will count the last two, but again, I doubt the majority of your wins are from that.
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On January 30 2011 09:19 Pandain wrote: If you're talking about pure cheese, it will be very hard to get to masters on pure cheese alone. I'm assuming your talking about cheese and not all in/semi all in's.
As you get up to masters, players get far better at scouting/knowing how to "read" a build order. For example, while you can get up to masters on 4 gates(unfortunately), I doubt someone could dt rush every game and get to top masters. '
Of course, really its the top masters, probably top 2%, that cheese, that pure cheese alone can't work.
I saw someone in masters who only does one base baneling busts. Every single game, every map, every matchup, the exact same build. His macro and micro are terrible. I played him in a 2v2 and absolutely destroyed him, so I had a replay to watch exactly how he plays. He didn't even use hotkeys and his apm was slow. I think the only reason he is in masters is because he plays a new game every 5 minutes.
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On January 30 2011 09:19 Pandain wrote: If you're talking about pure cheese, it will be very hard to get to masters on pure cheese alone. I'm assuming your talking about cheese and not all in/semi all in's.
As you get up to masters, players get far better at scouting/knowing how to "read" a build order. For example, while you can get up to masters on 4 gates(unfortunately), I doubt someone could dt rush every game and get to top masters. '
Of course, really its the top masters, probably top 2%, that cheese, that pure cheese alone can't work.
So by your "cheeses":
-pylon wall in + cannon Already known to be a great strat, your not showing anything here. Plus its been patched. Finally its not cheese because even if scouted you can't stop it. You have to stop it then and there.
-4 gate blink stalkers Not really so much a "cheese" as this would be an all in. And everyone knows that you can get to masters through pure 4 gates (unfortunately.) -Dts
-5 gate See above(4 gate)
vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy-Okay, its cheese, but are you sure terrans are losing to this? I doubt you would win many games just on this higher up. -Dts
vs Protoss
-modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate Yeah PvP is cheese fest, in fact playing standard is far harder. While technically if you play a matchup that's full of cheese, you are getting to masters on "cheese" alone, this doesn't raelly count. I will count the last two, but again, I doubt the majority of your wins are from that.
I really have no clue how you guys define what is cheese and what is not cheese :D But for me 4WG korea is definatly cheese as is cannon rushing :D Hiding 3 WG somewhere accross the map so the zerg player doesn't scout the 5 WG is also pretty cheesy.
As for winning against terran with 7pylon 8gate, you'd be surprised :D Well actualy it never wins the game but a majority of the time i end up with a 5 to 10 worker advantage after the rush.
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Can you post some replays plz ?
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On January 24 2011 20:26 Geiko wrote: These are the only strats i have been using. However, when you reach diamondish level, one cheese doesn't cut it anymore. You have to transtion into some other cheese. My last game which placed me in master went like this : failed cannon rush into scouted darkshrine into raping his base with proxy void rays.
YES! recurrent cheese! an endless loop of cheese!
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so most of the strategies you use are all-ins not cheeses and if u have the skill required for master league u can get there whatever strategy you use
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On January 30 2011 22:44 Joseph123 wrote: so most of the strategies you use are all-ins not cheeses and if u have the skill required for master league u can get there whatever strategy you use
The difference between cheese and a one-base all-in is a bit like the difference between Cheddar and Swiss.
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On January 30 2011 19:20 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 09:19 Pandain wrote: If you're talking about pure cheese, it will be very hard to get to masters on pure cheese alone. I'm assuming your talking about cheese and not all in/semi all in's.
As you get up to masters, players get far better at scouting/knowing how to "read" a build order. For example, while you can get up to masters on 4 gates(unfortunately), I doubt someone could dt rush every game and get to top masters. '
Of course, really its the top masters, probably top 2%, that cheese, that pure cheese alone can't work.
So by your "cheeses":
-pylon wall in + cannon Already known to be a great strat, your not showing anything here. Plus its been patched. Finally its not cheese because even if scouted you can't stop it. You have to stop it then and there.
-4 gate blink stalkers Not really so much a "cheese" as this would be an all in. And everyone knows that you can get to masters through pure 4 gates (unfortunately.) -Dts
-5 gate See above(4 gate)
vs Terran : -7pylon 8gate proxy-Okay, its cheese, but are you sure terrans are losing to this? I doubt you would win many games just on this higher up. -Dts
vs Protoss
-modified 4WG korea into Dts -cannon rush -Proxy void rays -proxy 2 gate Yeah PvP is cheese fest, in fact playing standard is far harder. While technically if you play a matchup that's full of cheese, you are getting to masters on "cheese" alone, this doesn't raelly count. I will count the last two, but again, I doubt the majority of your wins are from that.
I really have no clue how you guys define what is cheese and what is not cheese :D But for me 4WG korea is definatly cheese as is cannon rushing :D Hiding 3 WG somewhere accross the map so the zerg player doesn't scout the 5 WG is also pretty cheesy. As for winning against terran with 7pylon 8gate, you'd be surprised :D Well actualy it never wins the game but a majority of the time i end up with a 5 to 10 worker advantage after the rush.
Korean warp gate: Not cheese, just really all in. Furthormore, its PvP so its null. Same with cannon rushing.
Finally, you could hide four barracks in a TvZ match, and then scv marine all in them, but even though you added an "element" of cheese, its first and foremost an all in, and not so much a cheese.
On January 30 2011 22:56 Lochat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 22:44 Joseph123 wrote: so most of the strategies you use are all-ins not cheeses and if u have the skill required for master league u can get there whatever strategy you use The difference between cheese and a one-base all-in is a bit like the difference between Cheddar and Swiss.
Not really. They are alike in that their both retarded strategies that people who lack skill use to get an easy win, but the difference is that for a cheese, if its scouted you lose. For an all in, it can still be scouted and you can still easily lose(see: four gate.)
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I think the definition of cheese, all-in, and semi all-in are as follows:
Cheese: absolutely depends on not being scouted - you MUST surprise your opponent to win (e.g. 6 pool, proxy gates / rax, cannon rush, hidden stargate voidray, DT rush)
All-in: an attack (usually a rush) that almost certainly will cost you the game if its a failure / doesnt do significant damage (e.g. 2 rax + scv, 7 roach rush)
Semi all-in: an attack (usually a rush) that will put you behind economically or in tech if its a failure (e.g. 5 roach rush)
I am not sure whether 4 gate is all-in, despite cutting probes, because if you do some damage / force defences you can always pull back and start macroing up, using your decent army and production capacity to defend. 2 rax pulling SCVs is all-in (though if you do damage, you can use MULEs to crawl your way back into the game).
Also recently I've been thinking about these 'retarded' strategies. I think its the way the game is supposed to be played - on a knife edge and a battle to get to the mid and late game. You only need to watch Idras stream to see that on the Korean ladder it is a huge part of the game and not frowned on at all.
To give an analogy, in European warfare culture in the 18th and 19th century there was a lot of foo-fah about 'decorum' and manners and rules of engagement. It was almost as if war were a gentlemen's sport. Contrast this to the native american indians, who were seen as brave and honorable if they committed 'underhand' attacks such as assassinations, stealing of horses / supplies, etc. Are we not in the same situation here? We see cheese as cheap and not 'sporting' according to our gentlemen's code, but if it wins the game... its surely the effective strategy.
Hate the game, not the players! Cheese is strong and viable to get to the top leagues because that's how Blizzard designed cheese / all-ins. It's not an accident, there are plenty of RTS games where those kind of strats are almost always suicide. I suppose you could make the argument that the rationale is these kind of strats provide a more exciting game, meaning more sales, but I'm not the expert on Blizzard's design choices.
Props to Geiko for doing so well . Personally I think early aggression adds an interesting dynamic to the game in that it causes more 'on the spot' thinking rather than it being build order a vs build order b.
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On January 30 2011 22:56 Lochat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 22:44 Joseph123 wrote: so most of the strategies you use are all-ins not cheeses and if u have the skill required for master league u can get there whatever strategy you use The difference between cheese and a one-base all-in is a bit like the difference between Cheddar and Swiss. I like swiss better
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cheese is OK if opponent loses to cheese it's his fault some people even fast expand without checking for cheeses, it's so insane i cheese myself once in a while and cheese does not bother me when i lose losing bothers me, but i never talk trash to a guy for cheesing me whatever he did i check out in the replay/build order screen and i know better next time
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On January 31 2011 01:30 Dreaming11 wrote:I think the definition of cheese, all-in, and semi all-in are as follows: Cheese: absolutely depends on not being scouted - you MUST surprise your opponent to win (e.g. 6 pool, proxy gates / rax, cannon rush, hidden stargate voidray, DT rush) All-in: an attack (usually a rush) that almost certainly will cost you the game if its a failure / doesnt do significant damage (e.g. 2 rax + scv, 7 roach rush) Semi all-in: an attack (usually a rush) that will put you behind economically or in tech if its a failure (e.g. 5 roach rush) I am not sure whether 4 gate is all-in, despite cutting probes, because if you do some damage / force defences you can always pull back and start macroing up, using your decent army and production capacity to defend. 2 rax pulling SCVs is all-in (though if you do damage, you can use MULEs to crawl your way back into the game). Also recently I've been thinking about these 'retarded' strategies. I think its the way the game is supposed to be played - on a knife edge and a battle to get to the mid and late game. You only need to watch Idras stream to see that on the Korean ladder it is a huge part of the game and not frowned on at all. To give an analogy, in European warfare culture in the 18th and 19th century there was a lot of foo-fah about 'decorum' and manners and rules of engagement. It was almost as if war were a gentlemen's sport. Contrast this to the native american indians, who were seen as brave and honorable if they committed 'underhand' attacks such as assassinations, stealing of horses / supplies, etc. Are we not in the same situation here? We see cheese as cheap and not 'sporting' according to our gentlemen's code, but if it wins the game... its surely the effective strategy. Hate the game, not the players! Cheese is strong and viable to get to the top leagues because that's how Blizzard designed cheese / all-ins. It's not an accident, there are plenty of RTS games where those kind of strats are almost always suicide. I suppose you could make the argument that the rationale is these kind of strats provide a more exciting game, meaning more sales, but I'm not the expert on Blizzard's design choices. Props to Geiko for doing so well . Personally I think early aggression adds an interesting dynamic to the game in that it causes more 'on the spot' thinking rather than it being build order a vs build order b.
depends how people do 4 gates really as my 4 gate is pretty all in. (only make 20 probes) usually if people see 4 gate they cut workers anyways so idk haven't really thought about it. usually just leave if i 4 gate and don't crush him.
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I've reached master league as zerg, ranked 2000th in the world, very easily by playing many strats that are often considered cheese (although I don't believe in cheese) : 6pool, 7pool, 8pool, 5RR, 7RR, 8RR, baneling bust, one base baneling all-in ZvZ, 6pool spine crawler rush, proxy hatch, early nydus play, etc. I don't play these every game but roughly half of my games and win a lot of time with it. Sometimes I try for example to play 20 games in a row only 8RRing against any race and find myself winning actually more than with my usual macro style. And I play the least cheese-oriented race. So I think yes, most players, low or high level, underestimate early aggression, which is a big part of that game.
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Obviously if you're master you can make another account and only do cheese and still go to master because you already have the mechanics to execute the strategy.
I doubt a bronze player can even get to platinum with cheese only as his ability to execute the cheese is not up to par with a master that does it.
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thanks for this topic about Protoss cheese , it help me a lot
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