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At the DSL castings, Day9 frequently mentioned something called the 6 gate push. I was at dreamhack so I asked day9 himself and all he said is that it's when you push with 6 gates on two base, three gas and you only have 38 probes divided in the two bases. He also told me to watch NonY's games more info. I didn't find any replays of him doing this though.
So I searched the internet and all I found was that its basically a newschool, really strong push that not many people have encountered before and that NonY created it. It might be hard for Zergs to stop if it is as new as people say.
Do any of you have any of you know how to execute this build? Is it like 3gate expo into 6 gates? FE into 6 gate? Are there any vids or replays on this build?
Any info will be very appriciated (really awsome if Nony
himself replied)!
Thanks in advance! (this is my first thread on TL so it would be really nice if I could get some informative and good replies :D)
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Actually the 6 gate what TTone does off a 14 nexus build. Nony's build, check out his showmatch vs idra on shakuras, its 3 gate expo into 5 warpgate and you constantly use your 3 warpgates then cut probes and add 2 more with chronos on them to use your income surge.
They both hit 100 food around the 10 minute mark.
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Yeah, Watch the showmatch vs Idra. Should be able to Google the vods. He basically does a 3gate then expo while building alot of sentries to save minerals. Then he transfers probes to the natural but doesn't take the gas. So he's on 2 gas with about 30ish probes on minerals. Then he adds 2 more gates, pumps out a few cycles and pushes.
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Ok, but day9 told me that it was something NonY did wich 6 gates, not TTone, im getting kinda confused. And NonY uses 6 gates on the build not 5. But against Idra I guess he does something similair and also very powerfull!
Have you watched the games from DSL? There I think he does a 6 gate push but kinda fails in the beginning (lol, I asked him at dreamhack and he told me, should have asked about the 6 gate aswell).
But now I remember that when he told me his standard opening vs Zerg (!) I think he also said something about expanding off 3 gates and then adding some more gways, kinda hard to remember cause I talked with a lot of Pros  .
But still, thnxs a lot slayer and Mute!
Any1 else know something more?
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I like this build a lot, I tend to expo quicker if Z goes hatch first. 5gate + forge and a +1 timing attack can also be deadly on this, the forge will allow you a spare bit of cash for another tech path or maybe quick twilight council as you are not constantly making gateway units from another gate
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Sounds very much like a FE. Its very strong ofc but still not this certain build I wanna know more about, 6 gates on 2 base and stopping probe production when you have 38.
Still thnxs a lot!
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When trying to learn from pros, it helps a lot more if you try to understand why they do what they do instead of just blindly copying the build. For everything below the top level, things like 5 gates versus 6 gates, or 2 gas versus 3 gas matter very little.
For example:
3 gate expand versus 15 nex: if you go 3 gate expand, you can harass the zerg only on, plus you get sentries earlier and you start stockpiling energy so you'll have tons for that mid game push. If you like sentry-heavy play and/or options for early aggression, go with the 3 gate expand. If you just want a mass of zealot/stalker, go with the 15 nex. Note that on the majority of maps, 15 nex is practically just as safe as a 3 gate expand.
Cutting probes after 38: there is a huge drop in returns going from 2 probes per min patch to 3 probes per min patch. If you're going for a timing push, it makes a lot of sense to cut probes at this time, since 38 probes = 16 min patches (2 probes each) + 2 gas (3 probes each).
5 gates versus 6 gates: with 38 probes on minerals, if you have perfect macro and use all chrono on gates, 5 gates is actually all you can support. Nony's macro is no doubt in top shape, so that's why he goes for 5 gates. However, if your macro isn't as good, you should definitely get 6 or even 7 gates for this push.
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The nexus first gives zerg a lot more freedom to power drones as well, though TTone's build tends to invite early game pressure which is hit back hard with the build.
My impression was day[9] was confusing ttone 6 gate and nony 5 gate, but the number of gateways is only give or take a zealot anyway.
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Anihc your reply is good and very informative. I understand that you nned extremely good macro wich i don't have at all. I feel like the 3gate expo is better (cause NonY told me that it's very good and lets you get sentries early on xD).
I understand that 6 gate player with a good macro beats a Zerg as good as a 5 gate player with very good macro, but that doesn't explain to me why NonY still decides to go 6 gates. Cause both Day9 and the internet say so.
And Slayer your completely right it's just that I don't agree with you 'cause I specificly askedhim about a 6gate push and he very clearly told that it is when u push with 6 gates on 2 bases and that you stop making probes on 38. He then told me: ''Watch NonY's a.k.a. Tyler's games for more info.'' So he was pretty clear on that point.
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A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push.
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On November 30 2010 03:42 Slayer91 wrote:
The nexus first gives zerg a lot more freedom to power drones as well, though TTone's build tends to invite early game pressure which is hit back hard with the build.
My impression was day[9] was confusing ttone 6 gate and nony 5 gate, but the number of gateways is only give or take a zealot anyway.
If you nex first zerg can power drones but you can power probes just the same. You can pretty much match a zerg's drone production with dual nexus chrono'ed probes.
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On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push.
NonY told me to go 3gate expo cause u get those sentries early and they can hold early pushes and also later be used. But that kind of transition is very smart. But I wanna combine the 6 gate woth some early pressure so the 3gate expo seems a lot better. A good option still though for the ''fast expander''
Thnxs for a good reply
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No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily?
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On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily?
Its meant to be a really powerfull push that gives a lot of pressure with mass gway units. Good forcefields and stalkers combined can also deal with roaches, and when doing this you'll have more then enough of both, but then again, its hard and unknown of me HOW to do it.
It is kinda an all-in strat 'casue failure will put you so much behind unless you do some serious damage.
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On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push.
There's no need to cut probes and get 15 nex 15 forge if you scout a 14 hatch. Against hatch first it's safe to chrono probes 3 times and drop your nexus at 17, and then pylon - gate before you add the forge.
Upgrades are definitely great though, and you should always invest in them if you're doing this kind of mid-game timing push (and if you non-stop chrono them you can even get 1-1 upgrades in time).
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On November 30 2010 03:54 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push. There's no need to cut probes and get 15 nex 15 forge if you scout a 14 hatch. Against hatch first it's safe to chrono probes 3 times and drop your nexus at 17, and then pylon - gate before you add the forge. Upgrades are definitely great though, and you should always invest in them if you're doing this kind of mid-game timing push (and if you non-stop chrono them you can even get 1-1 upgrades in time).
Ofc +1 can easily be added if it not already is.
But doesnt leave the question why NonY does it on 6 gates instead of 5
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On November 30 2010 03:45 basic369 wrote:
Anihc your reply is good and very informative. I understand that you nned extremely good macro wich i don't have at all. I feel like the 3gate expo is better (cause NonY told me that it's very good and lets you get sentries early on xD).
I understand that 6 gate player with a good macro beats a Zerg as good as a 5 gate player with very good macro, but that doesn't explain to me why NonY still decides to go 6 gates. Cause both Day9 and the internet say so.
And Slayer your completely right it's just that I don't agree with you 'cause I specificly askedhim about a 6gate push and he very clearly told that it is when u push with 6 gates on 2 bases and that you stop making probes on 38. He then told me: ''Watch NonY's a.k.a. Tyler's games for more info.'' So he was pretty clear on that point.
He went with 6 gates because his economy had the room for it. Because it was what he was most comfortable with, and because it was the decision that made the most sense. Bridging that gap between good player and very good player is about being able to improvise a cookie cutter build. Opening four gate and realizing you are going to need to cut your losses and convert into 3 gate robo or knowing when it might be a good idea to drop a stargate. Whether to drop 2 more gateways to go for the kill or a nexus to keep up for the long term.
If you consider the fact that a player with excellent macro and boost only needs 5 gates for this build, consider this:
150m is not a big price to pay for another gateway. If you need focused macro with 5 gates to spend your money, the 6th gate gives you some breathing room.
Why would a pro need breathing room. All I know is if I can afford an extra gate or two I'll drop them. In exchange for losing 150 to 300 minerals, I gain the ability to focus entirely on my micro in combat when I need to, and drop units when its convenient for me. If I'm on 5 gates and I miss a cooldown, that units is effectively lost forever. If I'm on six gates, I can recover that time quickly without a hiccup in my production. This allows me to focus on the zerglings at hand and then warp in units while my FF's are down.
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On November 30 2010 03:58 basic369 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 03:54 Anihc wrote:On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push. There's no need to cut probes and get 15 nex 15 forge if you scout a 14 hatch. Against hatch first it's safe to chrono probes 3 times and drop your nexus at 17, and then pylon - gate before you add the forge. Upgrades are definitely great though, and you should always invest in them if you're doing this kind of mid-game timing push (and if you non-stop chrono them you can even get 1-1 upgrades in time). Ofc +1 can easily be added if it not already is. But doesnt leave the question why NonY does it on 6 gates instead of 5
You are worrying way too much about the little details. Plus I already answered this question. Get 5 gates if you have PERFECT macro. No one has perfect macro, and even pros slip up sometimes. That's why they get 6 gates.
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Maybe I get too many probes while doing it, but personally I can't spend my resources with 6 gates.
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So basically, 5 gates are needed if you are macriong perfectly, but 6 gates if you feel like your macro isnt good enough or that you simply ccan afford another gateway, like in tylers case I guess. I keep warping units and stop making probes when there are 38 of them and then i just warp in units and push. Sounds failry simple to me.
Whats so hard about this build or is it just so easy? What are the counters Zerg have or is it as i've read, something completely new?
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On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily?
Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4.
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Well, no, the reason you need 6 for the 15 nexus build is that you suddenly start them all as your income boosts over what you need to keep pumping probes. Off a 3 gate your infrastructure is already there so you can spend a little more money earlier on but spend a little less later on.
I think the only reason 5-6 is enough is it tends to use saved chrono boots and perfect macro, you'd want 7-8 if you're not a macro beast.
You need roaches with burrow and move speed if you want to beat this, i really doubt you can get enough hydras out quick enough to deal with it, and obviously its not good if you went muta because gateway is pretty standard against muta so skipping robo and twilight isn't a big deal, considering the only way he s urvives is behind spinecrawlers and on 2 base.
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On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4.
I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less.
In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis.
I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link?
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On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link?
Nony beat idra when idra went straight roaches, the timing doesn't always work out you need to know exactly what's going on and cut drones as far as i know, if you attempt to get hydras//infestors//muta//a third base you probably won't be in time.
No chance you'll get +1 ranged attack, but this isn't necessary. Just for reference this attack arrives around the same time the 3 gate robo with 3-4 immortals in early beta arrived.
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On November 30 2010 04:50 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? Nony beat idra when idra went straight roaches, the timing doesn't always work out you need to know exactly what's going on and cut drones as far as i know, if you attempt to get hydras//infestors//muta//a third base you probably won't be in time. No chance you'll get +1 ranged attack, but this isn't necessary. Just for reference this attack arrives around the same time the 3 gate robo with 3-4 immortals in early beta arrived.
I'd like to see that game, where can I download the rep/VOD?
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I really do wonder what happens if the Zerg goes for tunneling roaches. Maybe you need to add early pressure before the actual push?
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On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily?
Nah it doesnt. Stalker range + lots of Forcefields > roaches.
Its strength varies on the map a bit, of course its better on maps that have somewhat of a choke in front of then natural.
It is not all that hard to hold off with burrowed roaches though. I wouldnt even say that burrow move is necessary (of course it helps, and should be at least done after protoss "tech switched" and got his observer out)
That's how Bamboocha or what his name was knocked out Nazgul in TL open #3.
Cant remember if nazgul went 5 or 6 gate, he also might have expanded before 3rd gate simply cause it was jungle basin, cant quite remember.
About the 5/6 gate discussion it should be noted that Nony saved up Chrono boosts to use them on his warpgates, that's how he could keep his money low with only 5 gates and get a nice amount of additional units.
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Somehow, I highly doubt that you'll be able to spend all your resources with 38 probes, 16 divided minerals with 5 gates, with just zealot/sentry/stalkers. Where exactly are your other resources going into....?
EDIT: Nevermind, I missed the part of using chrono on gateways. Still, chrono energy doesn't regenerate that quickly. Even if you pool, you'll go through that energy in a couple of minutes at best. It's time to tech after the push.
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It's definitely a strong attack, but I feel that IdrA made some key mistakes in Game 1 & 3:
In Game 1, he tried to attack too early, fighting off creep, no +1 attack, no burrow, and was caught off guard before he could put his spines down.
In Game 3, he gets spire & +1 air attack but never makes a single mutalisk, so that was a big waste. That's 300/300 in wasted resources. No burrow, no +1 attack. +1 attack & burrow & tunnel is 350/350, so he could have at least had +1 attack & burrow by the time the attack hit.
The attack hits around 9-10 minutes, that's plenty of time to get +1 attack
I think this build can be fairly easily scouted as well, since protoss stays on 2 geysers. Thus, if you scout a large amount of sentries, and only 2 geysers, you can expect a 2base timing attack. Getting overseer at lair, and scouting and seeing no robo-fac + no stargate confirms.
If you're unprepared you will lose of course, but I think this build can be beaten on a consistent basis by pure +1 attack burrowed speedroach.
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I don't know about Tyler having 'invented' the 6gate push. There was a long time before 15nex became popular that I was doing FE or FFE builds into a very similar timing push that hits pretty much right before Mutas.
With +1 attack and Warpgate finishing at almost the exact same second, enough Psi space (kinda important for newer players to account for this) and a Proxy Pylon, this attack feels damn near unstoppable unless they did some heavy heavy roach play, and even then you are in an amazing position with 2Nex.
I wish people would stop taking regular builds that any joe-blow can figure out and giving all the props to well-known players :/
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On November 30 2010 05:45 BlasiuS wrote:It's definitely a strong attack, but I feel that IdrA made some key mistakes in Game 1 & 3:
IdrA was unprepared for this. It wasn't a commonly used strategy at that time, but it's getting more spread out.
One of the strengths of this build is that you'll have the income to support a transition into obs+immos to deal with burrowed roaches. Also, Zerg has to make several units to hope to fend this push, thus less drones. If your push is repelled, resume probes production and tech while securing a 3rd. You'll be in far better position than a 1basing robo or blink stalkers protoss.
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On November 30 2010 05:50 yarkO wrote:
I wish people would stop taking regular builds that any joe-blow can figure out and giving all the props to well-known players :/
Joe-Blow can figure all the openings he wants, he won't be the one popularizing it if he's a bronze player.
And for what it's worth, I think Tyler credited the build to Nazgul, who started doing it during BETA.
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On November 30 2010 05:50 yarkO wrote:
I don't know about Tyler having 'invented' the 6gate push. There was a long time before 15nex became popular that I was doing FE or FFE builds into a very similar timing push that hits pretty much right before Mutas.
With +1 attack and Warpgate finishing at almost the exact same second, enough Psi space (kinda important for newer players to account for this) and a Proxy Pylon, this attack feels damn near unstoppable unless they did some heavy heavy roach play, and even then you are in an amazing position with 2Nex.
I wish people would stop taking regular builds that any joe-blow can figure out and giving all the props to well-known players :/
Im also not so sure if NonY is the creator of this build. All I know is that day9 told me to watch NonY's games for more info about it. Makes sense he's therefore the player who also created the build.
Btw, ive won 5 zergs in a row on ladder (im a gold though) when doing this build. I'm still practising it but that atleast whows that it works in gold and NonY show that it works in the higher leagues aswell.
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On November 30 2010 06:03 Phrencys wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 05:45 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 04:56 Phrencys wrote:On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:
I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? IdrA vs Tyler showmatch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165609 It's definitely a strong attack, but I feel that IdrA made some key mistakes in Game 1 & 3: One of the strengths of this build is that you'll have the income to support a transition into obs+immos to deal with burrowed roaches. Also, Zerg has to make several units to hope to fend this push, thus less drones. If your push is repelled, resume probes production and tech while securing a 3rd. You'll be in far better position than a 1basing robo or blink stalkers protoss.
disagree. You cut probes in order to maximize your army, and you stay on only 2 geysers while making a lot of gas-heavy units (sentries) along with stalkers, so you won't have the income to support a transition.
Notice that the build doesn't get robo-fac at all, meaning you won't even be starting your robo-fac until after your timing attack is repelled. And zerg doesn't really have to make several units, pure +1 attack burrowed speedroach is enough.
If the attack is repelled, protoss will be behind; this is true of any timing attack that cuts workers, this build is no different. You won't be able to secure a 3rd if you're scrambling to make 2 additional geysers + robo-fac + obs + start making probes again + rebuild your army =/
Also I didn't even see a forge in those games, which means no cannons. Honestly if zerg beats this back, he can just attack-move his roaches into the expansion and win (assuming he has +1 attack and burrow of course).
One last point: this worked well on SP & LT, because both of those maps have easy-to-defend nats, meaning you can just use 5-7 sentries and skip cannons, and still be ok. On a map with wide-open nat like Xel'Naga Caverns or metalopolis, you'll need cannons in addition to sentries to stop a roach/ling attack (notice that on XC & metal, NonY doesn't even go for this 5gate attack, but instead opts for different builds).
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You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know.
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On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know.
The thing is that you cut probes at 38 to maximize unit production wich i think is pretty unorthodox.
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On November 30 2010 06:17 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:03 Phrencys wrote:On November 30 2010 05:45 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 04:56 Phrencys wrote:On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:
I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? IdrA vs Tyler showmatch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165609 It's definitely a strong attack, but I feel that IdrA made some key mistakes in Game 1 & 3: One of the strengths of this build is that you'll have the income to support a transition into obs+immos to deal with burrowed roaches. Also, Zerg has to make several units to hope to fend this push, thus less drones. If your push is repelled, resume probes production and tech while securing a 3rd. You'll be in far better position than a 1basing robo or blink stalkers protoss. disagree. You cut probes in order to maximize your army, and you stay on only 2 geysers while making a lot of gas-heavy units (sentries) along with stalkers, so you won't have the income to support a transition. Notice that the build doesn't get robo-fac at all, meaning you won't even be starting your robo-fac until after your timing attack is repelled. And zerg doesn't really have to make several units, pure +1 attack burrowed speedroach is enough. If the attack is repelled, protoss will be behind; this is true of any timing attack that cuts workers, this build is no different. You won't be able to secure a 3rd if you're scrambling to make 2 additional geysers + robo-fac + obs + start making probes again + rebuild your army =/ Also I didn't even see a forge in those games, which means no cannons. Honestly if zerg beats this back, he can just attack-move his roaches into the expansion and win (assuming he has +1 attack and burrow of course). One last point: this worked well on SP & LT, because both of those maps have easy-to-defend nats, meaning you can just use 5-7 sentries and skip cannons, and still be ok. On a map with wide-open nat like Xel'Naga Caverns or metalopolis, you'll need cannons in addition to sentries to stop a roach/ling attack (notice that on XC & metal, NonY doesn't even go for this 5gate attack, but instead opts for different builds).
Gotta agree with you in some points but you actually do this on 3 gas. Anyways, the burrowed roach is indeed a very dangerous threat to players doing this build. I hope I can apply some early pressure forcing the Zerg to make units and to delay the tunneling upgrade.
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watch TTOnes PvZ games from MLG Dallas, and watch nony's showmatch vs idra. really solid gateway focused strats there.
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On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know.
Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base:
-cut probes
-stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time
-no T3 tech (stargate, robo)
-no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons
There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire).
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On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link?
If you look at the Day 3 Loser Brackets (I believe) LiquidTyler replays from MLG Dallas, you can see at least one (probably several) of the 3 gate expand to 5 gate varieties. Compare that to WhiteRa's 3 gate expand in the same tourney... pretty sure WhiteRa gets a forge but I can't recall precisely. I found Tyler/Nony expanding slightly earlier (before warpgate finished, just before) where as WhiteRa would do it right after. If the first push gets repelled a lot of P get robo for one observer as soon as they smell burrow coming since burrow negates FFs pretty badly.
As for the 5 gate 2 gas only build, I think it is to punish greedy over-droning zergs. I think it is close but will lose to someone going the Zerg version of the build which is 2 base, 2 gas, speedling, roaches eventually into burrow movement. I think it also loses to roach + hydra... it's probably closer though because it seems like hydras pop around the first push... so probably map dependent. I haven't tested times thoroughly though, so anybody that has should chime in. But if Zerg can just hold on for about 30 (?) seconds of pressure, often they will win since if Protoss didn't win with that initial push the cost effectiveness of lings, roaches, or hydras will come into play quick against non-upgraded weapons/armor gateway units with less sentry support. Wouldn't be surprised if muta builds also beat it if spawn positions favor muta harass.
All in all, the 5 gate build has its place but seems to be very counterable by Zerg since they should be able to scout no gas and see what is coming. Best used against zergs that want economy above all else and haven't learned the perfect place to cut drones and army up.
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On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire).
Very true, its a lot different from other 2 base pushes 'cause it's very all-in(ish) and thats what makes it so interesting and risky. Btw, NonY actually lost a game to daboo who played a very unorthodox play with banelings vs Protoss. Nony i belive 6gate here. Can any1 plz watch and confirm. Nony later told me (i actually had a 1 minute PvZ ''lesson'' with him and later a 30sec long discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that he failed at the beginning.
Thoughts? Is this a way to deal with 6gate?
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On November 30 2010 06:37 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? If you look at the Day 3 Loser Brackets (I believe) LiquidTyler replays from MLG Dallas, you can see at least one (probably several) of the 3 gate expand to 5 gate varieties. Compare that to WhiteRa's 3 gate expand in the same tourney... pretty sure WhiteRa gets a forge but I can't recall precisely. I found Tyler/Nony expanding slightly earlier (before warpgate finished, just before) where as WhiteRa would do it right after. If the first push gets repelled a lot of P get robo for one observer as soon as they smell burrow coming since burrow negates FFs pretty badly. As for the 5 gate 2 gas only build, I think it is to punish greedy over-droning zergs. I think it is close but will lose to someone going the Zerg version of the build which is 2 base, 2 gas, speedling, roaches eventually into burrow movement. I think it also loses to roach + hydra... it's probably closer though because it seems like hydras pop around the first push... so probably map dependent. I haven't tested times thoroughly though, so anybody that has should chime in. But if Zerg can just hold on for about 30 (?) seconds of pressure, often they will win since if Protoss didn't win with that initial push the cost effectiveness of lings, roaches, or hydras will come into play quick against non-upgraded weapons/armor gateway units with less sentry support. Wouldn't be surprised if muta builds also beat it if spawn positions favor muta harass. All in all, the 5 gate build has its place but seems to be very counterable by Zerg since they should be able to scout no gas and see what is coming. Best used against zergs that want economy above all else and haven't learned the perfect place to cut drones and army up.
Disagree with the last part because we can see pros like NonY do this build vs Zergs that are really good, players like IdrA
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On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire).
What I'm saying is if you know the fundamentals of protoss economy and the particular timings of the opponent's race (in this case zerg), the build doesn't require any special memorization or build order.
You should know that cutting probes at X number and staying on X geyers supports X gateways from your experiences 4-gating, e.g. you can support a 1-base gateway army with 1 geyer. And with this build, just like in a 4-gate, you can choose to cut probes or continue them. You can choose to delay your push and/or have a smaller army in exchange for +1 weapons here or in a 4-gate.
So basically I'm saying that you shouldn't treat this "build" as a strict build order as it is basically a pretty standard opener for protoss. Sure when you all-in timing is critical and you can treat this build as an all-in build just like a 4-gate by cutting probes and staying on 2 gas or whatever, but that is selling it short. You want to be able play in the flow of the game and decide during the game what you're going to do.
For example I've seen pros do blink stalkers off 2-bases vs zerg, and it is something you can do on the fly if you know the economy needed for 1-base blink stalkers and the timings you need to hit. Or for another example you should know that if you opened 15 nexus instead of 3-gate expand that you generally will have to hit them earlier in the game than if you 3-gate into expand since you won't have the early army to do an initial push and force him to make lings/roaches/crawlers and delay their mutas or hydras.
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On November 30 2010 04:10 Anihc wrote:You are worrying way too much about the little details. Plus I already answered this question. Get 5 gates if you have PERFECT macro. No one has perfect macro, and even pros slip up sometimes. That's why they get 6 gates.
Also more gates means quicker response in distress times. I think it's HuK the one that told that to day9. Even if he can support X gateways, he adds a few more to be able to pump units if he needs too (cutting drones / upgrades / tech)
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On November 30 2010 06:42 basic369 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:37 Blacklizard wrote:On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? If you look at the Day 3 Loser Brackets (I believe) LiquidTyler replays from MLG Dallas, you can see at least one (probably several) of the 3 gate expand to 5 gate varieties. Compare that to WhiteRa's 3 gate expand in the same tourney... pretty sure WhiteRa gets a forge but I can't recall precisely. I found Tyler/Nony expanding slightly earlier (before warpgate finished, just before) where as WhiteRa would do it right after. If the first push gets repelled a lot of P get robo for one observer as soon as they smell burrow coming since burrow negates FFs pretty badly. As for the 5 gate 2 gas only build, I think it is to punish greedy over-droning zergs. I think it is close but will lose to someone going the Zerg version of the build which is 2 base, 2 gas, speedling, roaches eventually into burrow movement. I think it also loses to roach + hydra... it's probably closer though because it seems like hydras pop around the first push... so probably map dependent. I haven't tested times thoroughly though, so anybody that has should chime in. But if Zerg can just hold on for about 30 (?) seconds of pressure, often they will win since if Protoss didn't win with that initial push the cost effectiveness of lings, roaches, or hydras will come into play quick against non-upgraded weapons/armor gateway units with less sentry support. Wouldn't be surprised if muta builds also beat it if spawn positions favor muta harass. All in all, the 5 gate build has its place but seems to be very counterable by Zerg since they should be able to scout no gas and see what is coming. Best used against zergs that want economy above all else and haven't learned the perfect place to cut drones and army up. Disagree with the last part because we can see pros like NonY do this build vs Zergs that are really good, players like IdrA
Idra is famous for losing to aggressive builds when he doesn't have them figured out. I would be confident that having lost to them, he's done his homework and would respond better now if he knows they are coming. Of course if Nony changes it up and or hides what he is doing... don't know how you hide no gas at expo tho.
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With strong forcefield play becoming more and more common, any of you protoss dealing with early burrow+speed or burrow+tunnel roaches?
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i have watched nony reps where he does this very closely, you should too
he almost always goes 5 gate, i personally have never seen him get 6 gates but he probably did one game and that's why day9 thinks he does that
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On November 30 2010 06:38 basic369 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire). Very true, its a lot different from other 2 base pushes 'cause it's very all-in(ish) and thats what makes it so interesting and risky. Btw, NonY actually lost a game to daboo who played a very unorthodox play with banelings vs Protoss. Nony i belive 6gate here. Can any1 plz watch and confirm. Nony later told me (i actually had a 1 minute PvZ ''lesson'' with him and later a 30sec long discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that he failed at the beginning. Thoughts? Is this a way to deal with 6gate?
I personally really dont think so.
with the 3 gate sentries you get the energy for a lot of forcefields which should be able to deal with the banelings quite well.
Nony screwed up with his force fields that game, got sandwiched and only forcefielded one side, not the other, even though he wouldve had enough energy.
burrowed roaches are a better way to deal with it
afterwards he was also a little bit unlucky that his robo got killed by baneling counter push, significantly delaying his colossus push.
Since people talk about transition in both that game and the game Nazgul lost they did end up transitioning into robo tech, and they both could've won the game even though the attack sort of failed.
You wanna kill him with the push but its not automatically over if you dont, the good part is that Zerg has to stay on 2 base for a long time.
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Well, I Forge FE (or sometimes just straight 15 nexus) into a 6gate timing push that moves out around the 9:00 mark, right when the zergs first mutas are popping, and they're still in low numbers, it's very powerful.
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On November 30 2010 08:32 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:38 basic369 wrote:On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire). Very true, its a lot different from other 2 base pushes 'cause it's very all-in(ish) and thats what makes it so interesting and risky. Btw, NonY actually lost a game to daboo who played a very unorthodox play with banelings vs Protoss. Nony i belive 6gate here. Can any1 plz watch and confirm. Nony later told me (i actually had a 1 minute PvZ ''lesson'' with him and later a 30sec long discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that he failed at the beginning. Thoughts? Is this a way to deal with 6gate? I personally really dont think so. with the 3 gate sentries you get the energy for a lot of forcefields which should be able to deal with the banelings quite well. Nony screwed up with his force fields that game, got sandwiched and only forcefielded one side, not the other, even though he wouldve had enough energy. burrowed roaches are a better way to deal with it afterwards he was also a little bit unlucky that his robo got killed by baneling counter push, significantly delaying his colossus push. Since people talk about transition in both that game and the game Nazgul lost they did end up transitioning into robo tech, and they both could've won the game even though the attack sort of failed. You wanna kill him with the push but its not automatically over if you dont, the good part is that Zerg has to stay on 2 base for a long time.
Burrowed roaches really are the threat to this build. I've noticing in my ladder games that puahing onc ei expo with 3 gates and then going for the killing 6 gate push is really important. It can really make a lot of damage and usually the Zerg is forced to make mire units, wich even fourther delays any sort of tech imo.
But you're right when you say it's not over. 'Cause i just failed with the push but managed to cripply enough of his economy so I could easily rebuild my army. But if you push and the Zerg has spines and a shit load of units waiting for you, you probably fail and THEN i believe your pretty much dead, put hopefully good ff control can prevent that.
I do think that a third expo might save you if you manage to get your economy back though if your attack completely fails.
But thnxs for a good post. Anyone here tried it out on the ladder yet? Replays would be awsome
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EPT
