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On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know.
Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base:
-cut probes
-stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time
-no T3 tech (stargate, robo)
-no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons
There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire).
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On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link?
If you look at the Day 3 Loser Brackets (I believe) LiquidTyler replays from MLG Dallas, you can see at least one (probably several) of the 3 gate expand to 5 gate varieties. Compare that to WhiteRa's 3 gate expand in the same tourney... pretty sure WhiteRa gets a forge but I can't recall precisely. I found Tyler/Nony expanding slightly earlier (before warpgate finished, just before) where as WhiteRa would do it right after. If the first push gets repelled a lot of P get robo for one observer as soon as they smell burrow coming since burrow negates FFs pretty badly.
As for the 5 gate 2 gas only build, I think it is to punish greedy over-droning zergs. I think it is close but will lose to someone going the Zerg version of the build which is 2 base, 2 gas, speedling, roaches eventually into burrow movement. I think it also loses to roach + hydra... it's probably closer though because it seems like hydras pop around the first push... so probably map dependent. I haven't tested times thoroughly though, so anybody that has should chime in. But if Zerg can just hold on for about 30 (?) seconds of pressure, often they will win since if Protoss didn't win with that initial push the cost effectiveness of lings, roaches, or hydras will come into play quick against non-upgraded weapons/armor gateway units with less sentry support. Wouldn't be surprised if muta builds also beat it if spawn positions favor muta harass.
All in all, the 5 gate build has its place but seems to be very counterable by Zerg since they should be able to scout no gas and see what is coming. Best used against zergs that want economy above all else and haven't learned the perfect place to cut drones and army up.
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On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire).
Very true, its a lot different from other 2 base pushes 'cause it's very all-in(ish) and thats what makes it so interesting and risky. Btw, NonY actually lost a game to daboo who played a very unorthodox play with banelings vs Protoss. Nony i belive 6gate here. Can any1 plz watch and confirm. Nony later told me (i actually had a 1 minute PvZ ''lesson'' with him and later a 30sec long discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that he failed at the beginning.
Thoughts? Is this a way to deal with 6gate?
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On November 30 2010 06:37 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? If you look at the Day 3 Loser Brackets (I believe) LiquidTyler replays from MLG Dallas, you can see at least one (probably several) of the 3 gate expand to 5 gate varieties. Compare that to WhiteRa's 3 gate expand in the same tourney... pretty sure WhiteRa gets a forge but I can't recall precisely. I found Tyler/Nony expanding slightly earlier (before warpgate finished, just before) where as WhiteRa would do it right after. If the first push gets repelled a lot of P get robo for one observer as soon as they smell burrow coming since burrow negates FFs pretty badly. As for the 5 gate 2 gas only build, I think it is to punish greedy over-droning zergs. I think it is close but will lose to someone going the Zerg version of the build which is 2 base, 2 gas, speedling, roaches eventually into burrow movement. I think it also loses to roach + hydra... it's probably closer though because it seems like hydras pop around the first push... so probably map dependent. I haven't tested times thoroughly though, so anybody that has should chime in. But if Zerg can just hold on for about 30 (?) seconds of pressure, often they will win since if Protoss didn't win with that initial push the cost effectiveness of lings, roaches, or hydras will come into play quick against non-upgraded weapons/armor gateway units with less sentry support. Wouldn't be surprised if muta builds also beat it if spawn positions favor muta harass. All in all, the 5 gate build has its place but seems to be very counterable by Zerg since they should be able to scout no gas and see what is coming. Best used against zergs that want economy above all else and haven't learned the perfect place to cut drones and army up.
Disagree with the last part because we can see pros like NonY do this build vs Zergs that are really good, players like IdrA
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On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire).
What I'm saying is if you know the fundamentals of protoss economy and the particular timings of the opponent's race (in this case zerg), the build doesn't require any special memorization or build order.
You should know that cutting probes at X number and staying on X geyers supports X gateways from your experiences 4-gating, e.g. you can support a 1-base gateway army with 1 geyer. And with this build, just like in a 4-gate, you can choose to cut probes or continue them. You can choose to delay your push and/or have a smaller army in exchange for +1 weapons here or in a 4-gate.
So basically I'm saying that you shouldn't treat this "build" as a strict build order as it is basically a pretty standard opener for protoss. Sure when you all-in timing is critical and you can treat this build as an all-in build just like a 4-gate by cutting probes and staying on 2 gas or whatever, but that is selling it short. You want to be able play in the flow of the game and decide during the game what you're going to do.
For example I've seen pros do blink stalkers off 2-bases vs zerg, and it is something you can do on the fly if you know the economy needed for 1-base blink stalkers and the timings you need to hit. Or for another example you should know that if you opened 15 nexus instead of 3-gate expand that you generally will have to hit them earlier in the game than if you 3-gate into expand since you won't have the early army to do an initial push and force him to make lings/roaches/crawlers and delay their mutas or hydras.
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On November 30 2010 04:10 Anihc wrote:You are worrying way too much about the little details. Plus I already answered this question. Get 5 gates if you have PERFECT macro. No one has perfect macro, and even pros slip up sometimes. That's why they get 6 gates.
Also more gates means quicker response in distress times. I think it's HuK the one that told that to day9. Even if he can support X gateways, he adds a few more to be able to pump units if he needs too (cutting drones / upgrades / tech)
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On November 30 2010 06:42 basic369 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:37 Blacklizard wrote:On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote:On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? If you look at the Day 3 Loser Brackets (I believe) LiquidTyler replays from MLG Dallas, you can see at least one (probably several) of the 3 gate expand to 5 gate varieties. Compare that to WhiteRa's 3 gate expand in the same tourney... pretty sure WhiteRa gets a forge but I can't recall precisely. I found Tyler/Nony expanding slightly earlier (before warpgate finished, just before) where as WhiteRa would do it right after. If the first push gets repelled a lot of P get robo for one observer as soon as they smell burrow coming since burrow negates FFs pretty badly. As for the 5 gate 2 gas only build, I think it is to punish greedy over-droning zergs. I think it is close but will lose to someone going the Zerg version of the build which is 2 base, 2 gas, speedling, roaches eventually into burrow movement. I think it also loses to roach + hydra... it's probably closer though because it seems like hydras pop around the first push... so probably map dependent. I haven't tested times thoroughly though, so anybody that has should chime in. But if Zerg can just hold on for about 30 (?) seconds of pressure, often they will win since if Protoss didn't win with that initial push the cost effectiveness of lings, roaches, or hydras will come into play quick against non-upgraded weapons/armor gateway units with less sentry support. Wouldn't be surprised if muta builds also beat it if spawn positions favor muta harass. All in all, the 5 gate build has its place but seems to be very counterable by Zerg since they should be able to scout no gas and see what is coming. Best used against zergs that want economy above all else and haven't learned the perfect place to cut drones and army up. Disagree with the last part because we can see pros like NonY do this build vs Zergs that are really good, players like IdrA
Idra is famous for losing to aggressive builds when he doesn't have them figured out. I would be confident that having lost to them, he's done his homework and would respond better now if he knows they are coming. Of course if Nony changes it up and or hides what he is doing... don't know how you hide no gas at expo tho.
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With strong forcefield play becoming more and more common, any of you protoss dealing with early burrow+speed or burrow+tunnel roaches?
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i have watched nony reps where he does this very closely, you should too
he almost always goes 5 gate, i personally have never seen him get 6 gates but he probably did one game and that's why day9 thinks he does that
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On November 30 2010 06:38 basic369 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire). Very true, its a lot different from other 2 base pushes 'cause it's very all-in(ish) and thats what makes it so interesting and risky. Btw, NonY actually lost a game to daboo who played a very unorthodox play with banelings vs Protoss. Nony i belive 6gate here. Can any1 plz watch and confirm. Nony later told me (i actually had a 1 minute PvZ ''lesson'' with him and later a 30sec long discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that he failed at the beginning. Thoughts? Is this a way to deal with 6gate?
I personally really dont think so.
with the 3 gate sentries you get the energy for a lot of forcefields which should be able to deal with the banelings quite well.
Nony screwed up with his force fields that game, got sandwiched and only forcefielded one side, not the other, even though he wouldve had enough energy.
burrowed roaches are a better way to deal with it
afterwards he was also a little bit unlucky that his robo got killed by baneling counter push, significantly delaying his colossus push.
Since people talk about transition in both that game and the game Nazgul lost they did end up transitioning into robo tech, and they both could've won the game even though the attack sort of failed.
You wanna kill him with the push but its not automatically over if you dont, the good part is that Zerg has to stay on 2 base for a long time.
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Well, I Forge FE (or sometimes just straight 15 nexus) into a 6gate timing push that moves out around the 9:00 mark, right when the zergs first mutas are popping, and they're still in low numbers, it's very powerful.
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On November 30 2010 08:32 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:38 basic369 wrote:On November 30 2010 06:29 BlasiuS wrote:On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote:
You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. Sorry, but this build has too many differences from standard 2 base: -cut probes -stay on 2 geysers for an extended period of time -no T3 tech (stargate, robo) -no forge, which means no upgrades and no cannons There is no '2 base economy' with this build. It's designed to maximize your army and hit zerg before he can get his mid-game going ('mid-game' meaning, 3rd base, spire). Very true, its a lot different from other 2 base pushes 'cause it's very all-in(ish) and thats what makes it so interesting and risky. Btw, NonY actually lost a game to daboo who played a very unorthodox play with banelings vs Protoss. Nony i belive 6gate here. Can any1 plz watch and confirm. Nony later told me (i actually had a 1 minute PvZ ''lesson'' with him and later a 30sec long discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that he failed at the beginning. Thoughts? Is this a way to deal with 6gate? I personally really dont think so. with the 3 gate sentries you get the energy for a lot of forcefields which should be able to deal with the banelings quite well. Nony screwed up with his force fields that game, got sandwiched and only forcefielded one side, not the other, even though he wouldve had enough energy. burrowed roaches are a better way to deal with it afterwards he was also a little bit unlucky that his robo got killed by baneling counter push, significantly delaying his colossus push. Since people talk about transition in both that game and the game Nazgul lost they did end up transitioning into robo tech, and they both could've won the game even though the attack sort of failed. You wanna kill him with the push but its not automatically over if you dont, the good part is that Zerg has to stay on 2 base for a long time.
Burrowed roaches really are the threat to this build. I've noticing in my ladder games that puahing onc ei expo with 3 gates and then going for the killing 6 gate push is really important. It can really make a lot of damage and usually the Zerg is forced to make mire units, wich even fourther delays any sort of tech imo.
But you're right when you say it's not over. 'Cause i just failed with the push but managed to cripply enough of his economy so I could easily rebuild my army. But if you push and the Zerg has spines and a shit load of units waiting for you, you probably fail and THEN i believe your pretty much dead, put hopefully good ff control can prevent that.
I do think that a third expo might save you if you manage to get your economy back though if your attack completely fails.
But thnxs for a good post. Anyone here tried it out on the ladder yet? Replays would be awsome
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EPT
