EPTWhats so hard about this build or is it just so easy? What are the counters Zerg have or is it as i've read, something completely new?
NonY's6 gate push vs Z - Page 2
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basic369
Sweden119 Posts
Whats so hard about this build or is it just so easy? What are the counters Zerg have or is it as i've read, something completely new? | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote: No robo-fac? No stargate? Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I think the only reason 5-6 is enough is it tends to use saved chrono boots and perfect macro, you'd want 7-8 if you're not a macro beast. You need roaches with burrow and move speed if you want to beat this, i really doubt you can get enough hydras out quick enough to deal with it, and obviously its not good if you went muta because gateway is pretty standard against muta so skipping robo and twilight isn't a big deal, considering the only way he s urvives is behind spinecrawlers and on 2 base. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On November 30 2010 04:25 bobcat wrote: Force Fields my good sir. If you open 3 gate expand you will have a fair number of sentries with at least 100 energy if not 200 or 150. Thats about 20 FF's. And roaches do not like 20 forcefields. They don't even like 4. I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote: I have no problem beating pure gateway units with mass +1 attack speedtunnel roach, even with forcefields. Add in burrow and it becomes even more one-sided. Unless it's a map like jungle basin, where almost any spot on the map can be FF walled using 4 FFs or less. In my experience a protoss that doesn't get immortals or void rays almost always gets overrun by mass roaches in the mid-game. Then again I don't play NonY on a regular basis. I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? Nony beat idra when idra went straight roaches, the timing doesn't always work out you need to know exactly what's going on and cut drones as far as i know, if you attempt to get hydras//infestors//muta//a third base you probably won't be in time. No chance you'll get +1 ranged attack, but this isn't necessary. Just for reference this attack arrives around the same time the 3 gate robo with 3-4 immortals in early beta arrived. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On November 30 2010 04:50 Slayer91 wrote: Nony beat idra when idra went straight roaches, the timing doesn't always work out you need to know exactly what's going on and cut drones as far as i know, if you attempt to get hydras//infestors//muta//a third base you probably won't be in time. No chance you'll get +1 ranged attack, but this isn't necessary. Just for reference this attack arrives around the same time the 3 gate robo with 3-4 immortals in early beta arrived. I'd like to see that game, where can I download the rep/VOD? | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 30 2010 04:43 BlasiuS wrote: I'm still pretty skeptical, but based on the title of the thread, I assume there are some reps/VODs of NonY successfully doing this build? Does anyone have a link? IdrA vs Tyler showmatch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165609 | ||
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basic369
Sweden119 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote: No robo-fac? No stargate? Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily? Nah it doesnt. Stalker range + lots of Forcefields > roaches. Its strength varies on the map a bit, of course its better on maps that have somewhat of a choke in front of then natural. It is not all that hard to hold off with burrowed roaches though. I wouldnt even say that burrow move is necessary (of course it helps, and should be at least done after protoss "tech switched" and got his observer out) That's how Bamboocha or what his name was knocked out Nazgul in TL open #3. Cant remember if nazgul went 5 or 6 gate, he also might have expanded before 3rd gate simply cause it was jungle basin, cant quite remember. About the 5/6 gate discussion it should be noted that Nony saved up Chrono boosts to use them on his warpgates, that's how he could keep his money low with only 5 gates and get a nice amount of additional units. | ||
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OfficerTJHooker
Canada97 Posts
EDIT: Nevermind, I missed the part of using chrono on gateways. Still, chrono energy doesn't regenerate that quickly. Even if you pool, you'll go through that energy in a couple of minutes at best. It's time to tech after the push. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On November 30 2010 04:56 Phrencys wrote: IdrA vs Tyler showmatch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165609 It's definitely a strong attack, but I feel that IdrA made some key mistakes in Game 1 & 3: In Game 1, he tried to attack too early, fighting off creep, no +1 attack, no burrow, and was caught off guard before he could put his spines down. In Game 3, he gets spire & +1 air attack but never makes a single mutalisk, so that was a big waste. That's 300/300 in wasted resources. No burrow, no +1 attack. +1 attack & burrow & tunnel is 350/350, so he could have at least had +1 attack & burrow by the time the attack hit. The attack hits around 9-10 minutes, that's plenty of time to get +1 attack I think this build can be fairly easily scouted as well, since protoss stays on 2 geysers. Thus, if you scout a large amount of sentries, and only 2 geysers, you can expect a 2base timing attack. Getting overseer at lair, and scouting and seeing no robo-fac + no stargate confirms. If you're unprepared you will lose of course, but I think this build can be beaten on a consistent basis by pure +1 attack burrowed speedroach. | ||
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
With +1 attack and Warpgate finishing at almost the exact same second, enough Psi space (kinda important for newer players to account for this) and a Proxy Pylon, this attack feels damn near unstoppable unless they did some heavy heavy roach play, and even then you are in an amazing position with 2Nex. I wish people would stop taking regular builds that any joe-blow can figure out and giving all the props to well-known players :/ | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 30 2010 05:45 BlasiuS wrote: It's definitely a strong attack, but I feel that IdrA made some key mistakes in Game 1 & 3: IdrA was unprepared for this. It wasn't a commonly used strategy at that time, but it's getting more spread out. One of the strengths of this build is that you'll have the income to support a transition into obs+immos to deal with burrowed roaches. Also, Zerg has to make several units to hope to fend this push, thus less drones. If your push is repelled, resume probes production and tech while securing a 3rd. You'll be in far better position than a 1basing robo or blink stalkers protoss. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 30 2010 05:50 yarkO wrote: I wish people would stop taking regular builds that any joe-blow can figure out and giving all the props to well-known players :/ Joe-Blow can figure all the openings he wants, he won't be the one popularizing it if he's a bronze player. And for what it's worth, I think Tyler credited the build to Nazgul, who started doing it during BETA. | ||
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basic369
Sweden119 Posts
On November 30 2010 05:50 yarkO wrote: I don't know about Tyler having 'invented' the 6gate push. There was a long time before 15nex became popular that I was doing FE or FFE builds into a very similar timing push that hits pretty much right before Mutas. With +1 attack and Warpgate finishing at almost the exact same second, enough Psi space (kinda important for newer players to account for this) and a Proxy Pylon, this attack feels damn near unstoppable unless they did some heavy heavy roach play, and even then you are in an amazing position with 2Nex. I wish people would stop taking regular builds that any joe-blow can figure out and giving all the props to well-known players :/ Im also not so sure if NonY is the creator of this build. All I know is that day9 told me to watch NonY's games for more info about it. Makes sense he's therefore the player who also created the build. Btw, ive won 5 zergs in a row on ladder (im a gold though) when doing this build. I'm still practising it but that atleast whows that it works in gold and NonY show that it works in the higher leagues aswell. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On November 30 2010 06:03 Phrencys wrote: One of the strengths of this build is that you'll have the income to support a transition into obs+immos to deal with burrowed roaches. Also, Zerg has to make several units to hope to fend this push, thus less drones. If your push is repelled, resume probes production and tech while securing a 3rd. You'll be in far better position than a 1basing robo or blink stalkers protoss. disagree. You cut probes in order to maximize your army, and you stay on only 2 geysers while making a lot of gas-heavy units (sentries) along with stalkers, so you won't have the income to support a transition. Notice that the build doesn't get robo-fac at all, meaning you won't even be starting your robo-fac until after your timing attack is repelled. And zerg doesn't really have to make several units, pure +1 attack burrowed speedroach is enough. If the attack is repelled, protoss will be behind; this is true of any timing attack that cuts workers, this build is no different. You won't be able to secure a 3rd if you're scrambling to make 2 additional geysers + robo-fac + obs + start making probes again + rebuild your army =/ Also I didn't even see a forge in those games, which means no cannons. Honestly if zerg beats this back, he can just attack-move his roaches into the expansion and win (assuming he has +1 attack and burrow of course). One last point: this worked well on SP & LT, because both of those maps have easy-to-defend nats, meaning you can just use 5-7 sentries and skip cannons, and still be ok. On a map with wide-open nat like Xel'Naga Caverns or metalopolis, you'll need cannons in addition to sentries to stop a roach/ling attack (notice that on XC & metal, NonY doesn't even go for this 5gate attack, but instead opts for different builds). | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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basic369
Sweden119 Posts
On November 30 2010 06:18 Skyro wrote: You guys are nitpicking way too much. 3-gate expand, 5-6 gate push off 2 bases, 15+ nexus, it's all been done before. I've seen 3-gate expand into (most of the time) 5-gate push vs zerg from pro replays quite a few times and it's not an exact build order. It's expand behind your 3-gate aggression and then again behind your 2 base economy with 5-gates. It is designed to hit before mutas and any significant amount of hydras come into play. That's all you really need to know. The thing is that you cut probes at 38 to maximize unit production wich i think is pretty unorthodox. | ||
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basic369
Sweden119 Posts
On November 30 2010 06:17 BlasiuS wrote: disagree. You cut probes in order to maximize your army, and you stay on only 2 geysers while making a lot of gas-heavy units (sentries) along with stalkers, so you won't have the income to support a transition. Notice that the build doesn't get robo-fac at all, meaning you won't even be starting your robo-fac until after your timing attack is repelled. And zerg doesn't really have to make several units, pure +1 attack burrowed speedroach is enough. If the attack is repelled, protoss will be behind; this is true of any timing attack that cuts workers, this build is no different. You won't be able to secure a 3rd if you're scrambling to make 2 additional geysers + robo-fac + obs + start making probes again + rebuild your army =/ Also I didn't even see a forge in those games, which means no cannons. Honestly if zerg beats this back, he can just attack-move his roaches into the expansion and win (assuming he has +1 attack and burrow of course). One last point: this worked well on SP & LT, because both of those maps have easy-to-defend nats, meaning you can just use 5-7 sentries and skip cannons, and still be ok. On a map with wide-open nat like Xel'Naga Caverns or metalopolis, you'll need cannons in addition to sentries to stop a roach/ling attack (notice that on XC & metal, NonY doesn't even go for this 5gate attack, but instead opts for different builds). Gotta agree with you in some points but you actually do this on 3 gas. Anyways, the burrowed roach is indeed a very dangerous threat to players doing this build. I hope I can apply some early pressure forcing the Zerg to make units and to delay the tunneling upgrade. | ||
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
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