|
At the DSL castings, Day9 frequently mentioned something called the 6 gate push. I was at dreamhack so I asked day9 himself and all he said is that it's when you push with 6 gates on two base, three gas and you only have 38 probes divided in the two bases. He also told me to watch NonY's games more info. I didn't find any replays of him doing this though.
So I searched the internet and all I found was that its basically a newschool, really strong push that not many people have encountered before and that NonY created it. It might be hard for Zergs to stop if it is as new as people say.
Do any of you have any of you know how to execute this build? Is it like 3gate expo into 6 gates? FE into 6 gate? Are there any vids or replays on this build?
Any info will be very appriciated (really awsome if Nony
himself replied)!
Thanks in advance! (this is my first thread on TL so it would be really nice if I could get some informative and good replies :D)
|
Actually the 6 gate what TTone does off a 14 nexus build. Nony's build, check out his showmatch vs idra on shakuras, its 3 gate expo into 5 warpgate and you constantly use your 3 warpgates then cut probes and add 2 more with chronos on them to use your income surge.
They both hit 100 food around the 10 minute mark.
|
Yeah, Watch the showmatch vs Idra. Should be able to Google the vods. He basically does a 3gate then expo while building alot of sentries to save minerals. Then he transfers probes to the natural but doesn't take the gas. So he's on 2 gas with about 30ish probes on minerals. Then he adds 2 more gates, pumps out a few cycles and pushes.
|
Ok, but day9 told me that it was something NonY did wich 6 gates, not TTone, im getting kinda confused. And NonY uses 6 gates on the build not 5. But against Idra I guess he does something similair and also very powerfull!
Have you watched the games from DSL? There I think he does a 6 gate push but kinda fails in the beginning (lol, I asked him at dreamhack and he told me, should have asked about the 6 gate aswell).
But now I remember that when he told me his standard opening vs Zerg (!) I think he also said something about expanding off 3 gates and then adding some more gways, kinda hard to remember cause I talked with a lot of Pros  .
But still, thnxs a lot slayer and Mute!
Any1 else know something more?
|
I like this build a lot, I tend to expo quicker if Z goes hatch first. 5gate + forge and a +1 timing attack can also be deadly on this, the forge will allow you a spare bit of cash for another tech path or maybe quick twilight council as you are not constantly making gateway units from another gate
|
Sounds very much like a FE. Its very strong ofc but still not this certain build I wanna know more about, 6 gates on 2 base and stopping probe production when you have 38.
Still thnxs a lot!
|
|
|
When trying to learn from pros, it helps a lot more if you try to understand why they do what they do instead of just blindly copying the build. For everything below the top level, things like 5 gates versus 6 gates, or 2 gas versus 3 gas matter very little.
For example:
3 gate expand versus 15 nex: if you go 3 gate expand, you can harass the zerg only on, plus you get sentries earlier and you start stockpiling energy so you'll have tons for that mid game push. If you like sentry-heavy play and/or options for early aggression, go with the 3 gate expand. If you just want a mass of zealot/stalker, go with the 15 nex. Note that on the majority of maps, 15 nex is practically just as safe as a 3 gate expand.
Cutting probes after 38: there is a huge drop in returns going from 2 probes per min patch to 3 probes per min patch. If you're going for a timing push, it makes a lot of sense to cut probes at this time, since 38 probes = 16 min patches (2 probes each) + 2 gas (3 probes each).
5 gates versus 6 gates: with 38 probes on minerals, if you have perfect macro and use all chrono on gates, 5 gates is actually all you can support. Nony's macro is no doubt in top shape, so that's why he goes for 5 gates. However, if your macro isn't as good, you should definitely get 6 or even 7 gates for this push.
|
The nexus first gives zerg a lot more freedom to power drones as well, though TTone's build tends to invite early game pressure which is hit back hard with the build.
My impression was day[9] was confusing ttone 6 gate and nony 5 gate, but the number of gateways is only give or take a zealot anyway.
|
Anihc your reply is good and very informative. I understand that you nned extremely good macro wich i don't have at all. I feel like the 3gate expo is better (cause NonY told me that it's very good and lets you get sentries early on xD).
I understand that 6 gate player with a good macro beats a Zerg as good as a 5 gate player with very good macro, but that doesn't explain to me why NonY still decides to go 6 gates. Cause both Day9 and the internet say so.
And Slayer your completely right it's just that I don't agree with you 'cause I specificly askedhim about a 6gate push and he very clearly told that it is when u push with 6 gates on 2 bases and that you stop making probes on 38. He then told me: ''Watch NonY's a.k.a. Tyler's games for more info.'' So he was pretty clear on that point.
|
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push.
|
On November 30 2010 03:42 Slayer91 wrote:
The nexus first gives zerg a lot more freedom to power drones as well, though TTone's build tends to invite early game pressure which is hit back hard with the build.
My impression was day[9] was confusing ttone 6 gate and nony 5 gate, but the number of gateways is only give or take a zealot anyway.
If you nex first zerg can power drones but you can power probes just the same. You can pretty much match a zerg's drone production with dual nexus chrono'ed probes.
|
On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push.
NonY told me to go 3gate expo cause u get those sentries early and they can hold early pushes and also later be used. But that kind of transition is very smart. But I wanna combine the 6 gate woth some early pressure so the 3gate expo seems a lot better. A good option still though for the ''fast expander''
Thnxs for a good reply
|
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily?
|
On November 30 2010 03:52 BlasiuS wrote:
No robo-fac? No stargate?
Doesn't pure +1 attack upgraded roaches beat 5/6 gate pretty easily?
Its meant to be a really powerfull push that gives a lot of pressure with mass gway units. Good forcefields and stalkers combined can also deal with roaches, and when doing this you'll have more then enough of both, but then again, its hard and unknown of me HOW to do it.
It is kinda an all-in strat 'casue failure will put you so much behind unless you do some serious damage.
|
On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push.
There's no need to cut probes and get 15 nex 15 forge if you scout a 14 hatch. Against hatch first it's safe to chrono probes 3 times and drop your nexus at 17, and then pylon - gate before you add the forge.
Upgrades are definitely great though, and you should always invest in them if you're doing this kind of mid-game timing push (and if you non-stop chrono them you can even get 1-1 upgrades in time).
|
On November 30 2010 03:54 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push. There's no need to cut probes and get 15 nex 15 forge if you scout a 14 hatch. Against hatch first it's safe to chrono probes 3 times and drop your nexus at 17, and then pylon - gate before you add the forge. Upgrades are definitely great though, and you should always invest in them if you're doing this kind of mid-game timing push (and if you non-stop chrono them you can even get 1-1 upgrades in time).
Ofc +1 can easily be added if it not already is.
But doesnt leave the question why NonY does it on 6 gates instead of 5
|
On November 30 2010 03:45 basic369 wrote:
Anihc your reply is good and very informative. I understand that you nned extremely good macro wich i don't have at all. I feel like the 3gate expo is better (cause NonY told me that it's very good and lets you get sentries early on xD).
I understand that 6 gate player with a good macro beats a Zerg as good as a 5 gate player with very good macro, but that doesn't explain to me why NonY still decides to go 6 gates. Cause both Day9 and the internet say so.
And Slayer your completely right it's just that I don't agree with you 'cause I specificly askedhim about a 6gate push and he very clearly told that it is when u push with 6 gates on 2 bases and that you stop making probes on 38. He then told me: ''Watch NonY's a.k.a. Tyler's games for more info.'' So he was pretty clear on that point.
He went with 6 gates because his economy had the room for it. Because it was what he was most comfortable with, and because it was the decision that made the most sense. Bridging that gap between good player and very good player is about being able to improvise a cookie cutter build. Opening four gate and realizing you are going to need to cut your losses and convert into 3 gate robo or knowing when it might be a good idea to drop a stargate. Whether to drop 2 more gateways to go for the kill or a nexus to keep up for the long term.
If you consider the fact that a player with excellent macro and boost only needs 5 gates for this build, consider this:
150m is not a big price to pay for another gateway. If you need focused macro with 5 gates to spend your money, the 6th gate gives you some breathing room.
Why would a pro need breathing room. All I know is if I can afford an extra gate or two I'll drop them. In exchange for losing 150 to 300 minerals, I gain the ability to focus entirely on my micro in combat when I need to, and drop units when its convenient for me. If I'm on 5 gates and I miss a cooldown, that units is effectively lost forever. If I'm on six gates, I can recover that time quickly without a hiccup in my production. This allows me to focus on the zerglings at hand and then warp in units while my FF's are down.
|
On November 30 2010 03:58 basic369 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 03:54 Anihc wrote:On November 30 2010 03:46 panzzzzz wrote:
A variation on this against Z would involve a +1 upgrade. Assuming you scout 14 hatch, you respond with a 15 nexus and 15 forge. The forge lets you survive early pressure and doubles as your venue to a +1, which you would use in conjuncture with a 2 base, 5-gate push. There's no need to cut probes and get 15 nex 15 forge if you scout a 14 hatch. Against hatch first it's safe to chrono probes 3 times and drop your nexus at 17, and then pylon - gate before you add the forge. Upgrades are definitely great though, and you should always invest in them if you're doing this kind of mid-game timing push (and if you non-stop chrono them you can even get 1-1 upgrades in time). Ofc +1 can easily be added if it not already is. But doesnt leave the question why NonY does it on 6 gates instead of 5
You are worrying way too much about the little details. Plus I already answered this question. Get 5 gates if you have PERFECT macro. No one has perfect macro, and even pros slip up sometimes. That's why they get 6 gates.
|
Maybe I get too many probes while doing it, but personally I can't spend my resources with 6 gates.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
