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I apologize if this discussion is redundant, I searched for posts and couldn't find one:
Let me preface this by saying I don't have a replay handy as I'm at work, but if one's needed (I think it's pretty straight forward) I can post one later.
In a 1/1/1 build as Terran, one cheese I'm having a hard time with is a proxy rax rush. With other Terran builds, I can usually hold it off no problem, but I find that while doing a 1/1/1 build, I can never get enough marines out to fend off a proxy rax marine rush. Even if I execute very smoothly, they hit me right about when I start building my starport, and I usually have 3-4 marines at this point. Usually I get rushed with 6-7 marines (reinforced from the proxy raxes) and can't hold it off.
Is the 1/1/1 build just inherently vulnerable to this? 9/10 times I know the cheese is coming because it's pretty obvious when you scout his base and only see a supply depot. When I realize this cheese is coming, should I switch up and instead of throwing down a starport, throw down another barracks? Or is there a better way to handle this with the 1/1/1 than what I'm doing?
Any help is appreciated.
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I just wanted to add that I have also encountered this problem on Blistering Sands a few times where they proxy their raxes near my backdoor rocks. Going 1-1-1 I get pushed by about 7 marines right when my Starport is about to finish. I'm thinking perhaps a bunker could be useful at the ramp if no gas / rax are spotted in base with the initial scout.
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Have you tried throwing down a bunker in your mineral line?
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Well, harassment is good against 1/1/1 or any fast-tech builds because it's supposed to be. When one sees the enemy going this way, he will automatically think "Well, he can't have as many units as me." And they are right.
But if he proxies you beforehand, the only way to stop it is scouting it and adapting your strategy. You mentioned you knew the cheese was coming, but why did you continue with 1/1/1 anyways? You need to adapt to all situations, and make more units instead of teching if you know what's coming.
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I actually should have mentioned that in my original post. I've tried a bunker at my mineral line when I didn't wall off, but one thing I haven't tried is a walloff WITH a bunker. I usually don't wall against Terran anymore, but maybe on 2 player maps it makes sense. That seems pretty obvious and I'm kind of embarrassed I haven't tried it, haha.
Thanks, I'll report back if I run into it again.
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On October 01 2010 04:56 PatouPower wrote:
You mentioned you knew the cheese was coming, but why did you continue with 1/1/1 anyways? You need to adapt to all situations, and make more units instead of teching if you know what's coming.
Yeah so that was exactly what my question was, whether or not I should abandon the build entirely if I know cheese is coming, or if there's a way to slightly modify my strategy and continue with my plan.
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Have you tried scouting to make sure there is no chance of cheese especially on blistering sands. Also on blistering sands if you have a supply depot down at the rocks you can probably run an scv over to the depot and prevent the barracks from landing if you're quick enough by staying under it.
Just an idea. I haven't much experience with the proxy barracks rush so I'm just spitballing here.
Regards
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I don't usually use the 111 build, so I can't be sure that this is the best plan, but it seems legit from a theorycraft point of veiw.
The minute you see your opponent proxy raxxing, delay your Starport until you get a fair amount of stuff. You dont need to abandon the build, just stall the starport. This is so you can afford to be making hellions as well as marines. Engage with your marines first, preferably in the open (maybe the clearing at the top of your ramp?) and flank his marines with you hellions once he starts shooting your marines. If you have the gas, get blueflame too. If you can get blueflame, you dont need as many hellions. Without blueflame, I feel like 5 hellions is the perfect number, so you can 1shot his marines.
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The second you see a non standard BO in a TvT, put down a bunker ASAP. This will stop a lot of cheesey plays and will you put ahead in the long run. The reason the proxy barrack rush is so good is because in TvT, no one scouts early enough to adjust to it.
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This makes no sense. Your starport shouldnt even be started when they attack. You should have scouted their base by the time you are about to start factory. If you didn't scout, then start scouting.
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7 marines is pretty damn late, you should probably have a few marines in a bunker and a hellion by then right? Once the bunker is up you should be fine on most maps. Pull scvs to repair or attack, you can afford to lose a few since his Econ will be behind yours if he cheesed.
The scarier cheese is the proxy rax that has a marine in your base before your rax is even done. Then you have to pull workers and get that bunker up.
I hate getting cheesed by proxy rax in TvT, unfortunately it happens in at least half of them (the other half are cloaked banshee rushes :D)
You probably should post a replay when you can or the mods might close the thread.
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You have to place the bunker to cover the ramp. Doesn't need to be a full wall, it will do enough damage to marines trying to run past to make it a bad idea. If you bunker your mineral line the rushing player will just stay out of range of the bunker and shoot things
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I love how there's so many people in this thread giving me shit for not scouting when I clearly said in my post that I scouted and saw it coming. Again, my question was about the build order itself and if I could continue it with some small modification. Thanks to the people who had constructive input after reading my entire post.
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It costs 100 minerals and you already mentioned it ...
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I pretty much always open 7 or 8 rax proxy on 2 player maps and it's relatively easy to hold off but it throws people off. The reason I do 7 rax proxy is because I know that any terran who is teching gets a bunker @ ramp and mass marine fails HARD. You don't need to wall it, just stick a bunker there and you will stop mass marine openers.
Besides if you're going 1/1/1 the minerals aren't going to hold you back, it's the gas. So you can easily throw down the bunker.
Also I'm fairly sure that the reason that pros don't delay into mass marine (7-8 rine push) is because 1 bunker pwns you and you're behind. I tested this out on steppes (shortest distance) and there's like a 6s window where you can get 3-4 marines up and into the base (assuming no scout) before a bunker will typically be COMPLETED. Read that it is placed and almsot done building and once it finishes you're done.
If anything the 1/1/1 is practically broadcasted cuz as soon as you see a bunker @ ramp you can expect a banshee into expo and can prepare accordingly.
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Tried against IA on stepes of war it takes 2m24s to arrive at opponents main after doing depot. it takes him 3m28s to have 2 rax 5 rines and 1 scv plus 8 scv mining (eternal 2 rax marines pumping + depot) u have a window of about 15 seconds to do a bunker and it will finish before rines arriving with, when he attacks u will 2 marines already wich will be enough with repair ....
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@ mrk
7 proxy rax sounds like a terrible idea... how does this compare to the bbs cheese? I once held off a poorly executed bbs on steppes of war after running a scv into 3 marines...
@ babolatt
as soon as you scout it, you have to make a bunker immediately and as many marines as possible, while cutting scvs. While the bunker is going up, move your marines away from his and pull 3-4 scvs to reinforce your marines. Set them on auto repair and attack his marines with the scvs with your marines supporting from behind. If he fails to focus fire your marines, his marines will attack your scvs. If he does move to shoot your marines, he risks getting hit by your scvs, and will have to micro well to avoid getting sandwiched. Once the bunker is done, hop in and win.
Also, never try to wall off with supply depots against terran, this was discussed in another post, but their marines can shoot your supply depot while your marines behind the depots won't be able to fire back.
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In TvT if I see the opponent put down two raxes before a gas, I will ALWAYS add another rax and immediately put up bunker(s) at my ramp. Depending on how all in seems (you can tell with scouting) I usually pull off gas as well.
Just played this game on Steppes: http://www.mediafire.com/?r523w3btbtwgvtp
He tried to open 2rax cheese but stopped when he noticed I knew how to deal with it, and it developed into a longer game.
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As a Terran player that proxy Marine rushes in TvT I'm going to tell you that you aren't getting rushed early enough for it to be unstoppable. As soon as you scout his base and it becomes obvious that you are getting cheesed you should immediately pull your scvs off gas, drop a bunker, and build an extra barracks and you shouldn't have a problem.
Now, the way I do the proxy marine rush is to move up your ramp with 2 Marines which is usually right after the first Marine is built from your original barracks (assuming you went the standard 12 barracks) and right about the same time your scv scouts the cheese. At this point the player will chase me out with his scv's and try to drop bunkers and get another barracks up but with my 2 proxied barracks flooding Marines into the base I can usually dance around any bunkers that were managed to get dropped and snipe scv's, barracks, and supply depots until the opponent eventually rage quits. This strategy works well because it is so early and there is so little time to react to it. I'm only a platinum level player but I get matched against diamond Terrans all the time and most of them still lose to this, granted they are lower level diamonds but its still a very effective TvT strategy. The only way to really stop it is to send one of your starting scv's to your opponents base at the start of the game and detect it then.
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Yeah thanks guys, I'm pretty sure the bunker idea should work. I don't have much space in the build for it, but I think delaying the starport is probably better than cutting SCV's because it's going to be pretty hard for him to come back after this being held off as he's cut so many SCV's already. I think I was just overconfident as some of the other builds I typically use allow me to hold off this type of cheese pretty easily without a bunker.
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You shouldn't really be worried about your build timings if you are being proxy Marine rushed. All you have to do to win is stop the rush. If you can effectively keep him out of your base it's basically gg because the guy that rushed is way too far behind in scv production to be able to keep up.
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EPT
