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Allot of talk goes on about Zerg's weak early game. Some of these are balance related but allot of threads revolve around the many options the other races(mainly Terran) have at their disposal. Many harass options as well as mechanics such as walling off, etc. This isn't really a balance problem in it's self but creates a domino affect that makes Zerg appear to be not quite on par.
This thread will take a look at the "Problem" from the Zerg side with three easy fixes that are already in the game that could open up Zergs options and bring new life to the stale early game. None of these are new. They've all been discussed before and I take credit for none of them. Some were even already this way in beta but changed for reasons that are not known to me.
More Options Please
By moving three upgrades from Lair Tech to Hatchery Tech I think Zergs early game could expand exponentially.
Pneumatized Carapace Burrow Glial Reconstitution
Pneumatized Carapace(Overlord Speed)
Overlord Speed would give zerg the ability to scout when they need it the most. This free's up the Zerg to make good decisions. And free's them to play different styles rather than the prepare for everything style. The "reaction race" can now react accordingly.
Burrow(Burrow)
EDIT: Some people have pointed out some problems with Burrow at T1. Namely with Roaches with their regen which could be imbalanced. And Banelings burrowing in creative spots such as your opponents mineral line. These are valid points that sound strong on paper but I'm not sure if they would be imbalanced in game or not. Wall offs prevent allot of in base baneling problems. But Roach regen would most likely have to be nerfed a little. Burrow was already moved away from T1 by Blizzard so it's obvious they saw some problems. I still think it could be viable with a few tweaks though.
Burrow has many functions. Scouting, trapping, etc. I'll talk about the "closing the distance" aspect of burrow briefly. This allows burrow to overlap with speed upgrades in the early game where they would be to powerful. Most notably on the Baneling. Which would be one of the main reasons for getting early burrow. The strategies it unlocks are quite imaginative and require reactions from both players. If people start burrowing three banelings behind a mineral line, then a Meta might develop where Terran players start to put a little more thought into their harassment techniques and choices. Two Banelings burrowed on an obvious Reaper cliff hoping spot can start to change the way these units interact on a much more dynamic level then just nerfing numbers.
Glial Reconstitution(Roach Speed)
Glial Reconstitution allows roaches to be functional off of creep. Having speed at Hatchery Tech gives Zerg a more aggressive early game option which they currently lack. It would also help Roaches to stand up to Stalkers/Marauders outside of Wall offs.
Opening up the Early Game Betters the Entire Game
The coolest thing about these changes is the options that are opened up in the early game are carried into the mid/late game as well.
Examples:
Ventral Sacs(Overlord Transporting) is 200/200. Pretty expensive. But hey I already researched the speed. A more natural transition is set in place.
If you opted for burrow in the early game tunneling claws is only 1 more upgrade, and you probably already have a bunch of Roaches if you chose that tech path. Not to mention that this[Burrow] is something that you can find uses for now that you already have it. Burrow some Ultras. Set some traps. If it was part of your early game strategy then it's essentially just there(or free) for the rest of the game. And players will find new and interesting ways to use what is there.
Have a bunch of Ling/Roach/Bane from the early games slaughter? Why switch to spire tech when the units you already have(and have invested upgrades in) work better with Nydus Canals.
Giving the Power back to the Zerg
The upgrades at Hatch tech will not only give you more options for your gas spending but also keep you at hatch tech longer. Suddenly different styles could emerge such as choosing to expand twice before lair. Roaches with speed, Speedlings, and Banelings with Burrow will allow you to survive. And Overlord scouting will let you know if it's going to be possible or not. See air coming? Make more queens. If your going for the two fast expands and a heavy T1 army then your going to want more Queens for early creep spread. And you'll need them for your early expands anyway. You might also need some anti-air if scouted. Everything begins to develop synergy.
But not to the point, I believe, of being overpowered. They all come at a cost. And thats the real beauty of it. Cost vs reward.
If you spend gas on overlord speed then you give up lair tech. You gain the ability to scout but the tech is coming later. Spend gas on burrow and harass can be deterred or even shut down. Allowing you to expand and take a more aggressive nature. But your stuck with Lings, Roaches, Blings, and Queens for a while. Leaving you vulnerable to mass air or stealth. There are trade offs and I think the trade offs are great. They allow for so much better game play then what were currently working with. Which is in my opinion, very restrictive.
Current Problems with Zerg Early Game
A problem thats been discussed before is Zergs lack of T1 options suddenly explodes into a plethora of T2 options. Everything is expensive and every upgrade is required to make a tech path work.
Tech paths include Nydus Warren, Spire, Infestation Pit, Hydra Den. Upgrades to make units usable include Roach and Baneling Speed, Overlord Speed and Transportation, Burrow, etc. And then any upgrades from your chosen tech path. Hydra Range and Infestor energy upgrade, etc. All essential if your going to use those units.
Tons of options. All requiring major commitments in gas and time. If your given many options like this all at once then you are always going to choose the best ones. Thats one of the reasons Zerg is fairly one dimensional at this tech level. You may not think anything is wrong with always getting Muta vs Terran but consider all the options you have. No one is going to gimp themselves by getting burrow so they can be fancy instead of a spire. And if they do, then they are gimping themselves.
By spreading out upgrades you give more options, make more choices available to the players, and make a more dynamic game. Transitions become more natural. Strategies are built upon rather than just decided once you hit T2.
You would never choose burrow at T2 over another T2 option(unless your specifically going mass roach) but you'd be happy to use it if you already got it when it was good back at T1. And you don't feel so frustrated when an observer spots your trap because you know that upgrade already payed for itself back in the early game. It's just icing on the cake now. And making you feel more Zergy.
Would They be OP'd?
We will have to ask though. Are these upgrades to strong to be at Hatchery Tech. Burrow was once there but was nerfed in cost, tech level, and I think even research speed. Does the simple act of burrowing a ling at your opponents natural make this to strong? Roach Speed allows roaches to be aggressive off creep and help to close some of the gaps between them and their other T1.5 evil twins. The Marauder and the Stalker. It's sometimes puzzling why these units come out of the box owning roaches. With a speed upgrade at hatchery Roaches would stand more on par with Marauders and Stalkers off of creep. This advantage would be negated as soon as concussive shells was researched. Or by a wall off. And I think thats just fine. I can't think of one thing wrong with Overlord Speed at T1. Given it's cost of 100 gas and the research time, it becomes a huge early game investment. A great cost but at a great reward.
Some extra thoughts on Burrow
It may be that I'm viewing Burrow with the wrong mindset. In Broodwar it only granted the ability for most ground units to go underground. In SC2 it has that same function but some units gain other benefits. Mainly, the Roach(increased regen and movement), Baneling(ability to detonate underground), and Infestor(fast movement and spell casting). Only the Banelings ability(if you could call it that) is available before T2 anyway. So perhaps burrow is just an extra upgrade to allow the special abilities of 3 units. And the fact that it happens to affect all the Zerg ground units to a lesser degree is just a bonus. With this mindset it doesn't make sense to be at T1 since it's main function cannot be realized at that tech. On the other hand it seems a little on the expensive side.
In Conclusion
In conclusion I say let Terran keep their tech lab's and wall offs. Let them have their many harass options and excessive amount of openings. But give Zerg the ability, in choice, to defeat these things. We don't want these tools for free. Were willing to pay a high price for them. But right now they are nonexistent until a certain Tech is reached. Which makes reaching this tech the main focus of every Zerg player's game. Second only to surviving.
Thanks for Reading.
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I was ready to come in and yell at you for making yet another "how to fix zerg" thread, but this actually brings up a lot of good points, particularly regarding smoother transitions and the like.
I have few specific comments to leave other than that if roach speed were to be moved to tier 1 it might need a cost increase (150/150 sounds reasonable) to keep it from being overpowered-- speed roaches are VERY good against anything that can be thrown against them in the early game.
Of course all this is ultimately pointless because there's not a chance in hell of any of this actually being implemented, but I agree with you that these changes would simultaneously more firmly establish transitions between the early and mid game and open up zerg's options without really breaking anything. I think part of the reason why early game zerg can be so stressful is the fact that there are really very few options pre-lair and as such there's a sort of tension between affording both drones and sufficient army, and building queens, while needing to harvest a lot of gas quickly to be able to afford a pretty quick lair in order to have options, good scouting and efficient units.
Keeping more powerful units/upgrades at lair tech would maintain the need to tech to lair relatively early on in the game, and at the same time the gas tension would mean that still only one or two upgrades would end up being researched. Some interesting builds involving skipping ling speed for fast burrow or Ovie speed while maintaining current "normal" lair timing would likely spring up. One way or the other it would make zerg play a little more varied and unpredictable without introducing any overly powerful upgrades early on.
This is a pretty well thought-out set of upgrades to be available at hatchery tech. I'd love to see this implemented, and it's a damn shame it won't be.
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I agree with you that overlord speed should be moved up to hatchery tech so us zerg players can actually scout what our opponents are doing and have the ability to actually choose a counter strategy. I cant tell you how many times ive been raped due to a banshee cheese and there was no way of scouting it as all the terran has to do is make 3-4 marines and keep them near the ledges of there base. sacrificing a overlord early game is also very disruptive and waiting for lair tech for an overseer is sometimes too late. This change would improve the issues zerg is having very fairly.
Burrow on the other hand is an issue. If burrow were moved up to hatch tech roaches would be extremely OP imo. Every zerg would rush to roaches off of one base, skipping ling speed and going straight to burrow. They could be overly agressive and with proper micro would be extremely hard to kill because weakened roaches would regenerate in no time and then it would be pretty easy to disrupt the terran as you could constantly bombard his wall off. Protoss would have an even bigger issue because every zvp matchup would mean that the protoss would be forced to 1 gate or 2 gate robo just so he could get an observor to deal with the roaches insane regeneration ability.
Overall though good proposals.
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I don't see how moving OL speed to hatch would improve scouting for Z. The upgrade takes forever, teching to Lair is cheaper. Well you need to invest in an overseer for 50/100 (which means that you end up at 200/200 cost anyway). and while researching blocks your hatch from teching, teching to OL speed at hatch wouldn't be something I'd do anytime soon.
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I am a terran player and I support this. Something might have to change with the regen on roaches however. Perhaps the regen is a lair tech?
Seriously though, excellent, excellent suggestions.
EDIT: To the people saying its impossible to break a wall to find terran teching to banshee "cheese" (not really cheese), and that the overlord sac is too costly, I must disagree. The wall should be breakable if he's teching to banshees, whether by banelings, roaches, lings or all three. If he is teching to banshees, you should easily be able to make an army capable of breaking through, you would just need to be aggressive, and if his army is really large at his ramp, you have a good idea that he is not teching to banshees. And you can retreat and replan.
Also, Overlord costs 100 minerals, Scan costs 200+. And you dont even have to sac an overlord. Alot of the time, if you put an overlord on either side of their base and just keep popping in and out every so often you can spot key things, saccing the overlord is only neccessary when you arent getting enough intel to feel safe.
Also, I think there is a misunderstanding of the people who play zerg in a "reactionary" style. First of all, every race must react to the opponent at sufficiently high level of play. Secondly, I think the "reaction" is less about the simple unit combinations of "he made x so I'll make y" and more of the "he is pushing down the right side, but his army is slow so I will send a small harassment force to run by the left side" type of thinking.
Unit combos only get you so far, especially when your playing as Zerg.
Back on topic though. Great ideas.
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Roach speed and overlord speed at T1 would be excellent, but burrow at T1 would make roaches too overpowered due to lack of detection that early, unless they changed it so roaches only get increased regen after the burrow move upgrade.
What's interesting is that many Korean zergs already play in a style that stays on T1 for a long time for ZvP and sometimes ZvT, preferring to use ling/roach armies to defend. What sometimes happens though, is that they just suddenly lose to void rays or cloak banshees if you watch a stream of them playing. If overlord speed were available earlier, they wouldn't have this clear (and frankly unfair IMO) vulnerability and can afford to stay on T1 longer safely, just like Terrans can stay on MM or P can stick with warpgate tech for quite a while if they choose to do so.
BTW, I actually think this was written very well and you should consider posting it on BNet forums or something just for the chance that someone from Blizz reads it.
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I can't find a reason why those changes shouldn't be implemented in the game. Zerg has by far the weakest early-game and way too less options to choose from.
Roach-Speed would be very useful. I used to think it's impossible to make such an expensive Upgrade early on and still tech fast enough to be safe against stuff like cloaked banshees, but to fight off mass-reapers, it would be very useful (cuz If a player goes mass-reapers, he won't have enough gas to switch to banshees very fast, so you'd be safe if you'd stay on T1 for a while).
The Burrow would also help to defend against any sort of IMBA-harrassment of the Terran/Protoss, so they at least can't totally cripple your eco by killing harvesters n' stuff.
I don't think Overlord-speed that costs 100/100 would be viable on T1, it's just too expensive just for scouting-purposes, so I guess it should be 50/50 again. It would be a pretty cheap upgrade, but then again, by the time the upgrade is done, all the other races have enough Options to scout (floating Buildings, Reapers, Scans, Observers...) and Upgrades that are just as cheap for what they offer (Stim, warpgate-tech, Protoss Weapons Upgrade etc.)
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Burrow would be overpowered in tier one imo but I think they defiantly think they should have given it a go late beta. I would love to see zerg have more options if only to stop all the crying that goes on everytime a terran wins.
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I was looking at some of the research times for other tech from other races. Lair takes 80. Overseer 17 ling speed 110
roach warren 55 glial (speed) 110 tunneling 110
baneling nest 60 baneling speed 110
Hydra den 40 Hydra Range 80
Infestation pit 50 energy up 80
Barracks 60 Reactor 50 Tech lab: 25 Stim packs take 140 Nitro packs take 100 Combat shield 110 Concussive shells 60
Factory 60 Starport 50
Gateway 65 Cybernetic core 50 Warp gate 140 (although they have chrono. it's about ~85 if they chrono 3 times) Robo 65 Bay 65 Twilight 50 Dark shrine 100 Templar 50
As far as getting the ability to produce units, Zerg kinda has it easy with their buildings, as they are done quicker than most of the other buildings. It's hte upgrades that take ridculously long.
I think if we got a lot of stuff early on, it'd make it kinda of imbalanced. Especially burrow + banelings. It took a factory + addon + research to get mines for vultures in BW. Not something at marine level. And even then, with proper micro, you could combat the mines. With banelings, a user controls it, and it can be very deadly. If I had burrow at hatch tech, I'd always contain my opponent with banelings. They'd never move out until they got detection, which meant missile turrets, cannons, ravens, observers. Scans won't cover all the paths. And those things take a long time, or cost a lot, to get, especially early on.
Gotta be careful with what you give us Zergs, or it becomes too powerful.
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On September 11 2010 17:22 zhouzhou wrote: If I had burrow at hatch tech, I'd always contain my opponent with banelings. They'd never move out until they got detection, which meant missile turrets, cannons, ravens, observers. Scans won't cover all the paths. And those things take a long time, or cost a lot, to get, especially early on.
Gotta be careful with what you give us Zergs, or it becomes too powerful.
In BW, Terran had Spider Mines, which came out at around the same time as burrow Banelings do, for far less cost, and dealing FAR more damage. Spider Mines two-shotted Dragoons for 25 minerals apiece, while Banelings take five to kill a simple Zealot for 50/25 apiece. That's a huge cost difference. Burrow Banelings would only be good at shutting down certain 4gates and preventing early MM pushes. That's hardly game-breaking. Early Burrow Banelings would probably straight-up improve the game, by forcing it to go on longer and forcing detection from the opponents. That's all, really. Players always had to move out with detection in SC1, so why not in SC2 as well?
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Brilliant thread, well put points, sensibly written and I feel your suggested changes will actually address alot of zerg's problems in the early game, namely scouting, weaker units against timing pushes etc.
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On September 11 2010 20:02 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 17:22 zhouzhou wrote: If I had burrow at hatch tech, I'd always contain my opponent with banelings. They'd never move out until they got detection, which meant missile turrets, cannons, ravens, observers. Scans won't cover all the paths. And those things take a long time, or cost a lot, to get, especially early on.
Gotta be careful with what you give us Zergs, or it becomes too powerful. In BW, Terran had Spider Mines, which came out at around the same time as burrow Banelings do, for far less cost, and dealing FAR more damage. Spider Mines two-shotted Dragoons for 25 minerals apiece, while Banelings take five to kill a simple Zealot for 50/25 apiece. That's a huge cost difference. Burrow Banelings would only be good at shutting down certain 4gates and preventing early MM pushes. That's hardly game-breaking. Early Burrow Banelings would probably straight-up improve the game, by forcing it to go on longer and forcing detection from the opponents. That's all, really. Players always had to move out with detection in SC1, so why not in SC2 as well? Well, there is one difference. Burrowed banelings in a mineral line mean that you're effectively shutting down all mining until the victim has detection. Spider mines, on the other hand, couldn't be set off by workers (since they hovered).
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Burrow and Glial Constitution DEFINITELY need to be tier 1. Roaches are destroyed by everything, no question. Stalkers and Marauders will kite them, and even if they don't, an MM ball will instantly annihilate roaches. They only thing that the roach has in its advantage in early game is NOTHING. mid/late game you can get speed and tunneling claws, but by then, they are useless (not talking about zvz here). for exmaple, roaches do not counter reapers. Why? because reapers can kite them with their superior speed and range. What would be so imba about adding these to upgrades to tier 1? Nothing, Blizz should do it. Pne-howeva-da-hell-its-spelled Carapce isn't needed for tier 1 imho. Zerg can always run units up ramps and suicide overlords to get information. Blizzard should at least move roach speed to tier 1. I'm not so sure about burrow, because then zerg can actually put a contain on other races at tier 1 with burrowed banelings. That might be a little OP.
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Its really hard to change something like a timing for a building or an upgrade without completely changing the game completely like the people above have mentioned. what i would like to see is cheaper upgrades i mean stim is only 100/100 concussive shells are 50/50 compared to 150/150 for just hydra range i mean the two dont really compare. i like when overlord speed was 50/50 having faster overlords is always nice but when u hit lair you want to be saving gas for mutas getting roach speed or getting hydras/banelings u dont really have the gas to sink into speed when u dont really NEED it right away. I think the overlord speed or even morph overseer should be tier 1 giving zerg some nice early game options to contaminate a building to stop a timing attack would be nice or just scout with fast overlords.
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I edited the original post with some peoples thoughts on Burrow. It may be true that Burrow in general is just too strong to be at T1.
Thanks for the discussion so far.
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This will honestly revolutionize the way Zerg is played in the early game, allowing us to put some pressure at a high cost, allowing us to risk certain things to gain an advantage. All these upgrades are well thought out and can be implemented, sure it could use some tweaks with the burrow roach regen. but hey that gives Zerg to micro more in the beggining now. Early game Zerg almost requires no micro with Roach now in T1 we get some type of it just like Stalker and Marader already do. Since these upgrades are more gas heavy it could open up new openings that require you to go double early gas changing the way the game is played. Also scouting will be so much easier, but the only issue is it might be too easy. Normally Overlord speed will make the overlord fast enough to see what it needs to and leave. That might need some fixing idk because then we can freely scout whenever. But yeah Burrow + Glial Reconstitution will be really awesome to have in T1 allowing us to make up new BO's new Strategies and new Tactics, and in the end have a whole new Zerg!
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I agree that burrow (or any cloaking for that matter) at tier 1 would not work out well. On the other hand, the other two upgrades could be put at tier 1 without breaking anything. The ability to make roaches good and the option to get (not an obligation mind you) better scouting would be very nice and not game breaking as far as I can tell.
The ability to burrow roaches earlier with their regen would definitely cause problems (and the ability to burrow banelings in mineral lines or burrow a ling at an expand too early).
It would also be nice to see choices other than ling speed and lair. For example bypassing ling speed for fast roach speed into lair would be better. It would also help zerg fend off the early harass options we are having so many issues with (reaper/hellion).
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I really like this idea a lot. If anything the OL Speed and OL Drop should be T1 upgrades. That way the threat of a drop is actually something that could happen. I don't think anyone really fears an OL drop currently. The 300/300 and the absurd amount of time it takes to research, the first 20 min of a game against a zerg player will not have a drop.
Hell give me roach speed at t1, an early roach push with speed would be awesome.
Honestly at this point anything to change up early game zerg will make me happy. As zerg I feel so limited and it is making me so frustrated I am considering a switch to Protoss...
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Burrow as T1 wouldn't be OP if burrow-move-heal was still a lair tech.
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the only thing i could imagine is roach speed...burrow would be imbalanced beacuse of the regen imo..with overlord drops a wall off would become totally useless in early game..
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Lets try and steer away from OL drops at T1. Thats just asking to destroy the thread. The Roach Regen could be nerfed slightly but there are other problems with T1 Burrow as well. Maybe it's best left be.
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On September 11 2010 21:02 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 20:02 Acritter wrote:On September 11 2010 17:22 zhouzhou wrote: If I had burrow at hatch tech, I'd always contain my opponent with banelings. They'd never move out until they got detection, which meant missile turrets, cannons, ravens, observers. Scans won't cover all the paths. And those things take a long time, or cost a lot, to get, especially early on.
Gotta be careful with what you give us Zergs, or it becomes too powerful. In BW, Terran had Spider Mines, which came out at around the same time as burrow Banelings do, for far less cost, and dealing FAR more damage. Spider Mines two-shotted Dragoons for 25 minerals apiece, while Banelings take five to kill a simple Zealot for 50/25 apiece. That's a huge cost difference. Burrow Banelings would only be good at shutting down certain 4gates and preventing early MM pushes. That's hardly game-breaking. Early Burrow Banelings would probably straight-up improve the game, by forcing it to go on longer and forcing detection from the opponents. That's all, really. Players always had to move out with detection in SC1, so why not in SC2 as well? Well, there is one difference. Burrowed banelings in a mineral line mean that you're effectively shutting down all mining until the victim has detection. Spider mines, on the other hand, couldn't be set off by workers (since they hovered).
For that to work, you need to get Banelings in the mineral line, which should be pretty much game ending in most circumstances. If you manage to Baneling bust and leave some burrowed in the line, then your opponent deserves to lose (breaking to a bust that sank 6 banes of gas into Burrow). Maybe some weird as hell Overlord drop into the mineral line would work, but that's only gonna happen at T2 in any case.
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Banelings burrowing in the mineral line would be a huge issue.
Think of a baneling bust, I knock down a pylon/depot with 5 banelings and have 3 sitting behind them with 20 zerglings.
While I sac my zerglings to your fighter units, I work my banelings towards your minerals, I don't care if you run your workers away, I am just going to burrow right there and it's gg.
This is a HUGE issue, especially in ZvZ, where ling/bling is already the standard and moving your drones off the line away from banelings typically happens in every game.
My problem with burrow is, it just doesn't work as is right now.
I am not going to spend 100/100 on burrow at lair tech, I have other more important things to get. But burrow is SUPPOSED to be a staple ability of Zerg.
I think it is a little too powerful for roaches and blings at T1, but doesn't fit at all in T2.
This seems to be the theme of Zerg though, having abilities and units that just don't fit anywhere.
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Burrow used to be available at Hatch level during beta and Blizzard knocked it up to Lair. They won't change their minds and they probably shouldn't unless they made ling speed even more attractive.
Glial constitution constitution being available at the Hatch level wouldn't be an issue.
Overlords shouldn't have Pneumatized Carapace that early. Using a drone to scout is viable enough.
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I think this is a really good idea, especially considering that Terran have access to all four of their barracks unit upgrades before even getting their factory. We get Metabolic boost and... well, I think that's it. Having access to fast roach speed would change the entire early game so dramatically in a positive direction IMO.
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I like all of these ideas.
Maybe for Burrow - The research at tier 1 ought to require an evolution chamber?
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On September 12 2010 08:50 mutantmagnet wrote: Overlords shouldn't have Pneumatized Carapace that early. Using a drone to scout is viable enough.
The Overlord Speed would address a period of time where Zerg have complained about having limited ability to scout their opponents. The only option being an Over Lord sac that may or may not work.
Drone scouting or ground scouting in general isn't possible once the wallin goes up. The best you could do is run lings up the ramp to gain limited vision is certain scenarios.
All of these scouting tactics are well known but Zerg still has problems scouting during this time window. The Overlord Speed at Hatchery Tech may be a way of addressing that.
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With burrow at tier 1, its not like the roaches are moving or putting out damage while burrowed. You should know exactly where they are. They can just tank damage a little better which should be fine because they take tons from kiting stalkers and fast marauders with conc shells. As usual, burrowed banes wouldn't do much vs terran. They have the scan and hellions. If you wanted to, you could just force fire on your command center and have the linear splash kill the bane at the min line? Toss doesn't have the same options but they have shields and wont get 1 shotted by banes.
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I just want to reply on this.
First of all: you have to be VERY VERY careful with nerfs. They ahve the possibility of completely screwing up the balance. Each race has 3 matchups, 2 of which balance can be messed up, 1 of which variety can be messed up.
There are 3 ways of changing balance: nerfing existing stuff, buffing existing stuff or chaging/adding stuff.
I dont like the first two since they dont add variety and complexity to a game. This is how I feel about 1.1.
By the way, I think people have to give the game more time, in order to let strategies evolve. Dont change too much at the same time.
The problem with Zerg atm is that there is no need to be afraid of them in early/early mid. They have no initiative. Terran only needs to be afraid of 6pool ( lol ) and baneling bust. Same with Protoss. Zerg has to worry about proxy, rine/rauder timing attack, raper, LIFFURAUCDS ( lol i force field your ramp and you cant do sh*t ). Just a lot of things. Zerg needs to get some initiative and the early game needs to be opened up. Good point OP.
I suggest splitting up Burrow. One hatchery research to burrow roaches, lings ( maybe not banelings i dont know the timing ). Another lair research to boost regen and burrow Infestor/Elefants. I dont know what they should cost but you can figure it out. This would make Terran more weary of attacking since they can walk right into a trap/need to use a scan instead of Mules. Protoss can be contained. It opens up the Zerg instead of nerfing P and T.
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On September 11 2010 21:17 Antares777 wrote: Blizzard should at least move roach speed to tier 1. I'm not so sure about burrow, because then zerg can actually put a contain on other races at tier 1 with burrowed banelings. That might be a little OP.
Oh no!!! Not a contain at Tier 1. /s
I think a contain in early game is exactly what Zerg could use, because clearly, our early game sucks (and against Terran, even mid to late game sucks). If we could deny our opponent from leaving their base, that would allow us to get a fast third if we wanted it, and that would significantly open up our options, and actually put us on an even footing against T.
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If we are worried about burrow banelings being too dangerous and powerful at hatchery tech, why can't we change the way burrow applies to banelings? Perhaps banelings would require their lair tech speed upgrade to be able to burrow? This seems not too difficult to code as it requires two conditions to unlock baneling burrow (speed and burrow). Banelings won't become more powerful in the early game. It prevents banelings from becoming too dangerous in hatchery tech (and making zvz quite a bit of nightmare with baneling mines early in the game). At the same time, it does not affect the usage of banelings mid-game except encouraging Zergs to abuse burrow more to force detectors from the other two races.
With burrow as an option at hatchery tech, counterattacking with burrow zerglings and roaches in hatchery tech enough of a threat to Terran and Protoss where they either take a risk while moving out early, or commit more resources to defenses/detection which gives Zerg a little more breathing room in the early game.
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Burrow and Roach claws Should stay in tier 2. They are too powerful. The Only thing that needs to move to tier one is Overlord speed. Other races wall in are too powerful and tier one scouting is needs to be buffed for zerg.
The only other change I would make is: Hatcheries that are morphing to lairs or upgrading should be able to train Queens at the same time. Because Queens are for defense only I don't see how this can hurt other races. And This would make ZvZ a much better match-up instead of constant all in banelings.
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At this point in time I think the best changes that can/should be made should be very slight in comparison. Changing tech trees by moving them across tiers would be a huge change, and I don't think Zerg really needs that much of a change. The only changes i think should be to make it a little quicker or safer to get to tier 2, because as it is right now going to tier 2 is your only option besides going all in. Most (non-all in) tier 1 play against a walloff is a choice between getting to tier 2 faster or safer.
Slowing down 4gate and easing up reaper play will make it a little easier on Zerg. But it's up to the players to figure out strategies with what they have, not just say "If only this, then I could do this." The game is the way it will be for the most part until Heart of the Swarm.
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As for the comment about roach regen is imba, how about marauder 1A?
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On September 12 2010 03:39 TechDeft wrote: Burrow as T1 wouldn't be OP if burrow-move-heal was still a lair tech.
100% agree
and burrow would be useful on t1 for banelings and counterattacks
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On September 13 2010 07:57 kef wrote: The only changes i think should be to make it a little quicker or safer to get to tier 2, because as it is right now going to tier 2 is your only option besides going all in. Most (non-all in) tier 1 play against a walloff is a choice between getting to tier 2 faster or safer.
In my opinion this is a problem. And the changes outlined in the OP attempt to address that problem. You can't do anything with T1. The only reason you build any T1 is to get to T2 alive. I don't think thats very good design.
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I think roach speed alone at t1 would be more than enough to deal with terran but it would probably be too much vs toss.
To some extent, I kinda wish banelings were a little more well-rounded in their damage output, even if that meant they didn't smash light units so hard.
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On September 12 2010 08:59 wail wrote: I like all of these ideas.
Maybe for Burrow - The research at tier 1 ought to require an evolution chamber?
I was busy thinking something slightly different ...
Would it break the game if Zerg got burrow automatically with a lair (like the overlord creep spewing). This would make it much more used ...
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