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Hello,
This is my first topic so don’t be too rough on me please =)
Yes, I did some search before making this topic and I didn't find any topic about it (If I missed it, please redirect me to it and delete this topic obviously)
Now, let's get back on the main topic.
As the title says, when you build an hatchery and cancels it, there are 3x3 tiles of creep for a short time.
Here are the key things to note :
- You must have at least 300 minerals to do it.
- When you cancels it, you get 225 minerals back (hence it costs 75 minerals).
- You have enough time to make any 3x3 building (Spawning pool, Baneling nest, Roach warren)
- You have enough time to make a spine crawler and a creep tumor together.
- This becomes useless at Tier 2 once you have lair, since overlord vomiting creep is free.
Here are two things I looked into :
1/ "cheesing" with a relativery fast hidden spawning pool
So I made some tests with a build-order tester and here are the timings I got for when the spawning pool starts :
+ Show Spoiler +6 pool : 0:42
7 pool : 0:50
8 pool : 0:59
9 pool : 1:05
10 pool : 1:12
6 hidden pool : 1:12
7 hidden pool : 1:14
8 hidden pool : 1:21
9 hidden pool : 1:27
13 pool with a 9 over : 1:49
Of course these number depends on a few minor things and may vary a little, if you're not happy with them, you are welcome to do the tests yourself 
The main point I get out of these timings is that an hidden 7 pool (that seems the most interesting one) is approximatively as fast as a 10 pool.
I don't know how efficient an hidden pool can be, as I didn't get to try it while the beta was still open, so I'd like to know you guys' opinion about this
Oh, and, one last thing I want to note is that buildings off creep dies slowly, so you'll have approximatively 5 minutes to either win the game or put a creep tumor to keep your spawning pool alive.
2/ Agressive spine crawler push
With this technique, you can basically build a spine crawler in front of your enemy base.
But one spine crawler alone will die slowly without creep and I don't think it would be very efficient. However, maybe you can work on a build order where you make 2 queens relatively fast and send one in front of your opponent base (yes this might only work on short rush distance maps), well then you could make a spine crawler and a creep tumor at the same time.
The creep will keep your spine crawler alive, will slow down your opponent from expanding, will make your units in front of his base faster, and you'll also have a queen as anti-air and to transfuse the spine crawler.
Last thing I want to note, is that since it requires 300 minerals in advance, you might want to to this trick just before your set of 4x larvaes pop out (since you would have kept some money for building the units for those larvaes).
Same as 1/, I didn't get to try this on the beta, so I can't provide any replay and this is all theory crafting, but I think this might open up to some cool new strategies and I'd like to know what you guys think about it.
Thanks for reading, cya.
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I've heard about getting the 3x3 creep, but I'm not sure its easy to justify. I think the best reason would be to place it at your opponents nat, lay down a tumor and spine crawler contain. With queens moving so slowly off creep, though, it's not the easiest thing in the world. It is doable, however.
Wouldn't bother vs Terran with siege tanks, but maybe vs Toss.
EDIT: Or maybe all-in ZvZ 6pool crawler rush. If you try to crawler at the edges of the creep they usually see it, but if you get that 3v3 block just outside of the creep, cancel the hatch then you can lay down 1 crawler. When its done building, it can offer protection to build more crawlers. Kind of the epitome of cheese though, I wouldn't bother.
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Nice idea, but low chances of this working.
Also good player will notice that you don't have expansion and SP but so low on workers.
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nice catch. what about blocking terran or protoss before they build gate?
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I like this, this could be some sort of "Manner creep tumor" for zerg, which would make it really difficult for the protoss to get their expansion, or even impossible until they either invest in a cannon or get a robotics facility for observers.
The problem I can forsee is, as Nokarot said, that queens move quite quite slow off creep, so you'd need close positions or just sacrifice a queen for this.
But I think sacrificing a queen might even be worth it.. I really would like to try this out in game because it sounds like it could be an excellent tactic!
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I really like the creative thinking that is brought up here. Thinking like this can cause the game to evolve. And while you get an A for effort, I just think the timing might be a little slow.
Also, doesn't a spine crawler start to bleed and die when the creep starts to receed? Or does this only happen with buildings? (Or am I completely wrong, and this doesn't happen at all?)
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I remember a post like this from a few months back it suggested something very similar to the spine crawler rush, but never thought of it as a way to hide the pool, thats kinda clever, the best is if you do it fast enough, you can spend that 225 minerals on drones while your pool builds you opponent will just think you are going for a late pool build when he scouts.
edit: here is the post i was talking about. similar idea but he thought it was a bug "Spine Crawler Push Bug?"
oh it also includes a replay
Edit 2: there is also another thread about this play style use in ZvZ b/c you can build on the other players creep, but it also talks about how with the hatchery trick it can be put to in all match ups
Build on other creep in ZvZ
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I think it could be a good idea for a hidden baneling nest or roach den, but for the pool, I think its a little slow to wait for the extra 100 minerals for a tech structure that is necessary and they know you have to get anyway. Baneling/Roach is more optional and better choice to hide.
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On July 26 2010 22:52 ThreeSixDrew wrote:
Also, doesn't a spine crawler start to bleed and die when the creep starts to receed? Or does this only happen with buildings? (Or am I completely wrong, and this doesn't happen at all?)
Uprooted spine crawlers don't bleed, rooted ones bleed.
That's why I suggested to have an additional queen to put a creep tumor there.
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On July 26 2010 22:52 ThreeSixDrew wrote:Also, doesn't a spine crawler start to bleed and die when the creep starts to receed? Or does this only happen with buildings? (Or am I completely wrong, and this doesn't happen at all?)
I think that's why he suggested building a crawler with a tumor.
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On July 26 2010 22:47 v4nd4l wrote:
nice catch. what about blocking terran or protoss before they build gate?
No point of that. You won't have 300 minerals when they get 1 gateway.
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They don't bleed in the morphing/building stages, just saying.
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On July 26 2010 22:57 Nokarot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2010 22:52 ThreeSixDrew wrote:Also, doesn't a spine crawler start to bleed and die when the creep starts to receed? Or does this only happen with buildings? (Or am I completely wrong, and this doesn't happen at all?) I think that's why he suggested building a crawler with a tumor.
I think the crawler can walk off creep and not lose any life however it will be extreamly slow and not able to burrow and attack.
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Not a zerg player here, is lair required to get overlord speed & overlord carrying units upgrade?
If not you could get those and airlift your queen where needed. Heavy investment but having a creep tumour on your opponents expo seems pretty harsh
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I can see this as a viable way to get a couple of spine crawlers up at a base's ramp entrance. Could this be a possible way to create a quick wall in for zerg?
Such as, throw down a hatch, cancel, put down a creep tumor, build an evolution chamber in a position similar to where you would place a gateway or pylon as Protoss, build a spine crawler (or 3) behind the evolution chamber then choke up the wall in with zerglings.
I've been toying with the idea of using a hatchery to block off a ramp partially but I think this would be more economical.
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On July 26 2010 23:07 shammythefox wrote:
Not a zerg player here, is lair required to get overlord speed & overlord carrying units upgrade?
If not you could get those and airlift your queen where needed. Heavy investment but having a creep tumour on your opponents expo seems pretty harsh
Yeah you need a Lair, 300/300, and several minutes of research time for the overlords to move quickly and carry units.
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Messed around with it some and don't see how it can be really useful without a queen to do a creep tumor and they are just too slow to make it work. By the time the queen walks all the way up to a forward position you could just get lair.
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I don't see the hidden pools being useful really... It weakens the strength of the rush so much, 7 pool becomes 10-pool and is completely all in, a 10-pool isn't cheesey enough to outright win most of the time.
Also the scout can still see how few workers you have and know something's up.
I think the best use of the creep would be to 6(or 7/8)pool with spine crawlers vs non-zerg
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On July 26 2010 23:16 General-Gouda wrote:
I can see this as a viable way to get a couple of spine crawlers up at a base's ramp entrance. Could this be a possible way to create a quick wall in for zerg?
Such as, throw down a hatch, cancel, put down a creep tumor, build an evolution chamber in a position similar to where you would place a gateway or pylon as Protoss, build a spine crawler (or 3) behind the evolution chamber then choke up the wall in with zerglings.
I've been toying with the idea of using a hatchery to block off a ramp partially but I think this would be more economical.
this. omg this. i've been thinking about that too, and i think this has awesome potential for hiding baneling nests and roach warrens in addition to creating the first ever zerg wall off
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This is exactly why they nerfed the Queen's movement off creep - players would bring a couple drones and queen to the opponent's base, make this creep pile, plant a tumor, and build spine crawlers. Reinforce with an army, grow the tumor and push with the spine crawlers.
Now that the queen is an idiot, there's no viable way to get persistent creep down unless you proxy hatchery or tech to lair - and neither of those are fast enough really.
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EPT
