EPTMy only issue right now is if a really good Terran does a marine/tank push. I can fend off the first push (the one with like 6-8 marines and 1 tank) really easily, but once he has ~3 tanks and siege mode, I have major issues, which I'm trying to work out... I'm thinking that there might be some hope in just holding his push as long as possible, and going for a warp prism really quickly. I may be able to do a storm drop and get enough time to retake my front, but it's going to take some practice.
Twilight Council Builds? - Page 2
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Khrane
United States127 Posts
My only issue right now is if a really good Terran does a marine/tank push. I can fend off the first push (the one with like 6-8 marines and 1 tank) really easily, but once he has ~3 tanks and siege mode, I have major issues, which I'm trying to work out... I'm thinking that there might be some hope in just holding his push as long as possible, and going for a warp prism really quickly. I may be able to do a storm drop and get enough time to retake my front, but it's going to take some practice. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
But if I see a mass of marauders... well you're basically forcing yourself into a tight spot by massing a unit that is hard countered by your opponent's current army. If you don't want to go quick robo for early immortals then going stargate for voids is just as viable. One transition from blink stalkers I've had success with (I'm mid diamond atm) stargate -> phoenixes if they go early robo in PvP. You can really overwhelm them by lifting up the Immortals and if you can't beat them outright you can really confine them in 1 base and expand and just take it from there. My best suggestion though is if you absolutely must open w/ blink stalkers every game, is to thumbs up/down (I forgot how it works exactly) so that you only play maps where you can abuse blink like Kulas, Blistering, Desert Oasis, etc. | ||
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Seltsam
United States343 Posts
But like a lot of people have already mentioned, it really depends on scouting and what your opponent is up to. Still, a few HT will basically always be of benefit. Just be careful you don't commit too heavily without scouting first. Additionally, a HUGE amount of situations can be helped with either Charge or Blink. Blink helps take out air and get good surrounds/concaves, and Charge makes Zealots really strong against almost any ground unit. I've done Gates into Robo into Council into Colossi before pretty effectively. I think it's totally plausible to go gates > robo > council and then tech switch from there, provided you're not trying to end up with carriers or something. But that covers most if not all general situations. You've got detection, strong anti-infantry, decent sniping ability... Basically if you're opening with warpgates, as long as you properly support whatever you tech to, you will have a very versatile build. I really think it works well. | ||
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Surrealz
United States449 Posts
A- Change to chargelots and take templars? B- Robo? C- Stargate? (one thing that is awesome about ur phoenix suggestion is that it will give me vision for my stalkers' blink, very useful) Basically I'm looking for the best combos to go with my blink stalkers in different situations. I really like using them though, cause I abused the shit out of sentries/zealots the first few weeks I had the beta. Seltsam, there is no possible way I could support that economically in the early game. 3gate 1robo is already pretty difficult to keep streaming out units, I cant really see too much extra minerals/gas to get the council AND a bay. Also, the blink stalkers go down and down in utility as the game goes on. I'm still trying to weigh the pros/cons of HT tech vs Robo after the stalkers. I'm thinking vs Terran robo is probably better (well at least against MMM or M&M), but against zerg I'm probably gonna be boxed into HT, cause robo + collosi just takes so long to tech and such a high mineral/gas/research commitment. Thoughts? | ||
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Kratisto
United States199 Posts
As an aside, watch out for cloaked units when you skip the robo. You need a Forge to keep you safe if you scout anything at all that could imply cloaked units before you get towards late game and can afford the robo and observers. | ||
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Seltsam
United States343 Posts
On May 25 2010 18:14 Surrealz wrote: Seltsam, there is no possible way I could support that economically in the early game. 3gate 1robo is already pretty difficult to keep streaming out units, I cant really see too much extra minerals/gas to get the council AND a bay. If you're really set on this type of build, and the problem is eco, then maybe it's time to start thinking about how to incorporate an earlier expansion into your build? Like 3gate > robo > maybe push (depends on timing obviously) > expo > council. or gate > council > expo > robo. Or something along those lines. If your initial investment is in a robo, then the big one is out of the way. A council is 150/100, which is not too bad for a tech building. Another useful thing to note is that if you're going to be getting mostly gateway units, th council opens up more upgrades. Being 2-1, 2-2, or even 3-2(if you're a rich mofo) can really really help. And the later you get those upgrades, the less useful they will be. Here is an example of one of my builds I usually go 2gate > robo > gate > expo > council > robo bay > expo > templar archives Obviously that's WAY simplified, but the general idea is that once I get up a third base, I can usually afford to start producing templar, and i start saving some gas around the time I geta robo bay. I produce 1-2 colossi, used mainly for defense at first, and typically don't move out until I have 3 or 4 HT and a third colossus. A chargelot/stalker army backed by colossi and templar can be a giant pain in the ass to deal with. HTs tend to soften up units in a bunch, and the colossi's splash quickly finishes them off. I often see several of their units die at once. It's definitely resource-intensive, but if you can get out an army like that (if you cut back on sentries and zealots a bit you can probably fudge 2-basing it), your opponent will be hard-pressed to stop you, regardless of what race they are. You're right -- you can't support it in the early game, but as you said, Blink loses a lot of its utility in the late game. So focus on Blink and maybe an obs and an immortal or two, but with a heavy focus on gateway units. Then transition later into a heavier robo/council build. Just a thought to hopefully at least give you some new ideas of your own. EDIT: For clarification, when I say, I "typically don't move out until I have 3-4 HT and a third colossus," I mean I don't move out with my colossi/HT. Obviously I don't just sit in my base and macro up until I have 3 bases and a bajillion colossi/HT >.> | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
I haven't made a Robotics Facility before my Twilight Council in a looooong time, it just works for me. | ||
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Ryhn
United States509 Posts
): This thread brought me great pain to read. That said, I think people love DTs too much to -not- find a way to incorporate them into a build order. Hopefully with time or patches someone will find the magic combination to form a TC based build. | ||
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Seltsam
United States343 Posts
On May 25 2010 19:10 Ryhn wrote: That said, I think people love DTs too much to -not- find a way to incorporate them into a build order. Haha yeah this is frighteningly way too accurate. I have played against protoss players who go for gateway units + void rays... +DT. They don't even harass with them or try to use them for map control. They sometimes just stick them with their army and let 'em go. | ||
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Surrealz
United States449 Posts
What do you do with your blink stalkers on steppes of war? There is...a choke..thats it. I guess their nat is pretty open to harassment, but only from the front. There are a few maps like this where I can't seem to find an exploit to take blink to its advantage harass wise. Also, when do you usually start pushing out? Do you wait for that large army with 3 gates (10+ stalkers?) or just push out as soon as blink is done? I can never seem to get any kind of timing down, even though it IS situational. I don't like the DTs as much as others, which is why I've been trying to get some kind of fast high templar or fast robo switch down, but none seem to be consistent against good players. As far as what you said about Mutas/Lings being really good against HTs- Yea they are, but hydras get raped by storm. I really hate boxing myself into a stargate vs terran because an MMM ball will RAPE stalkers + lots + voidrays, easily. I feel like my chances are infinitely better with HTs mixed in instead of 4-5 voidrays. Whats your opinion on this? | ||
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LeChat
11 Posts
Mid-Late game? Fuck yeah i'll go templar tech in every match up except maybe against mass hydras 'cause extended thermal lances are just so fucking glorious against them or if it's a map where i can exploit colossi cliffwalk a lot | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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Kerm
France467 Posts
For mid-late game i'd say that you can go pretty much any way you want, and that's what i like with this build : if my zerg opponent goes Hydra i can send colossus with stalker fast enough, for Terran i'd like Templar better, with phoenixes to lift tanks. Council is probably not the ultra-optimal-best build whatever, but at our 'not the best player' levels, what counts is more your macro/micro talent than the 'build' your making, as long as your unit composition is versatile enough, and stalker is the word for 'versatility' in Protoss language, so i was told by my buddy Tassadar  -Kerm | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On May 25 2010 18:14 Surrealz wrote: @ Skyro - yea its pretty ignorant of me to want to open with them every game (and I don't do it EVERY game, just a vast majority of them =P). However, like you said, its an opening. That is the main reason I made this thread. If I see my opponent is massing marauders with my blink stalker poke, is it best to: A- Change to chargelots and take templars? B- Robo? C- Stargate? (one thing that is awesome about ur phoenix suggestion is that it will give me vision for my stalkers' blink, very useful) Basically I'm looking for the best combos to go with my blink stalkers in different situations. I really like using them though, cause I abused the shit out of sentries/zealots the first few weeks I had the beta. Seltsam, there is no possible way I could support that economically in the early game. 3gate 1robo is already pretty difficult to keep streaming out units, I cant really see too much extra minerals/gas to get the council AND a bay. Also, the blink stalkers go down and down in utility as the game goes on. I'm still trying to weigh the pros/cons of HT tech vs Robo after the stalkers. I'm thinking vs Terran robo is probably better (well at least against MMM or M&M), but against zerg I'm probably gonna be boxed into HT, cause robo + collosi just takes so long to tech and such a high mineral/gas/research commitment. Thoughts? Really depends on the point in the game and what unit composition you see. If it's early on before you choose to go TC, you can slap down a robo and have 1-2 immortals by the time they do their timing push with concussive shells (mix in some zealot and sentries as well). If you're already later into the game and already have a bunch of stalkers out, I think void rays are a better "reactionary" tech as most players go heavier on the marauders so all you have to do is wipe out the marines and you can stop the initial push. Plus you can pump out phoenixes to counter tanks which have become very popular in PvT atm from what I've seen. Then when they start making unit compositions with more marines then a transition from there into late-game HTs works pretty well for me. I would avoid teching fast HTs. They aren't the best vs mass marauders early on unless you can get them at your choke or something. In the open field w/ stim it's not great. Where it shines is late game when you're clashing with 100+ supply armies where the micro gets stressed and there's just so many units on the field that they can't move groups of units that well. | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
On May 25 2010 19:35 Surrealz wrote: tozar, I've spent a frightening amount of time watching your stream/VODs lately lol, and it seems you are ALWAYS on friggin DO, Lost temple, Kulas, Blistering Sands, etc. What do you do with your blink stalkers on steppes of war? There is...a choke..thats it. I guess their nat is pretty open to harassment, but only from the front. There are a few maps like this where I can't seem to find an exploit to take blink to its advantage harass wise. Also, when do you usually start pushing out? Do you wait for that large army with 3 gates (10+ stalkers?) or just push out as soon as blink is done? I can never seem to get any kind of timing down, even though it IS situational. I don't like the DTs as much as others, which is why I've been trying to get some kind of fast high templar or fast robo switch down, but none seem to be consistent against good players. As far as what you said about Mutas/Lings being really good against HTs- Yea they are, but hydras get raped by storm. I really hate boxing myself into a stargate vs terran because an MMM ball will RAPE stalkers + lots + voidrays, easily. I feel like my chances are infinitely better with HTs mixed in instead of 4-5 voidrays. Whats your opinion on this? I use the map preferences so I can get the most out of my build. I mark off blistering sands (because of the backdoor), metalopolis (because of the short walking distance between the natural expansion and the main), steppes of war (very little terrain for getting the most out of blink, main is nearly untouchable if they turtle), and scrap station (because of how difficult it is to fight off air units and drops when sitting outside the enemy base). My push generally comes when I am ready. I try to start a new tech building (i.e. dark shine) and spend all my money on stalkers or an expansion before I move out. Since I will be microing a lot it is important that I cram in as much macro as possible before I attack. The earliest I will push is when Blink is just about done. This will let me escape marauders, zerglings, or forcefields should I run into them. You will want to take any xel'naga towers outside your opponent's base so you can can make sure the coast is clear before sending out any unblinkable stalkers. As for HT's I find them really hard to use. I'm always mismanaging them because they are so slow. I would like to try and get better about using them, because I think they can be really effective against some builds that have been giving me trouble. I always feel like I'm rolling dice when I throw down the templar archives (more so than DTs, which I am very comfortable with using). I feel like void rays compliment blink stalkers nicely because you can jump in with your stalkers and pick off marines, plus they can deal with marauders, ravens, and banshees quite nicely. | ||
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orgon
United States20 Posts
I'm convinced it does have a higher DPS since I rip through hydras of the same number but without charge I get owned. But I never tested this. | ||
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HoroBoro
United States91 Posts
On May 26 2010 04:05 orgon wrote: I know that chargelots move faster but do they also have a higher DPS, and if so, how does that change your guys' BO? I'm convinced it does have a higher DPS since I rip through hydras of the same number but without charge I get owned. But I never tested this. Hydras are glass cannons. Zels get raped by hydras because they fire so fast. If your zeals can engage fast, they rape hydras because hydras have very low hp. Nothings changed about the DPS of zeal. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44257 Posts
 I've found this easier to pull off than psi storm tech (and less gas-demanding too). | ||
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Surrealz
United States449 Posts
as far as the HTs go, next time you stream I'd love to see some pro HT use, as I'm really crossing my fingers for this build to work at plat/diamond (whatever the hell its called now) levels. | ||
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