Basic question is: How do I counter stalkers supported by colossus? I tried and failed with bio blob + vikings although that is probably more to do with how poorly I played than a weakness in the strat.
I understand theoretically how TvP is supposed to work and have read all the strat threads, but I still find myself losing to even fairly poor players. I'll post one replay that highlights this in some detail -- Toss turtled in his base with mass cannons and then made a few colossus with stalkers. I went vikings and MM/ghost blob to counter, harassed his main and expanded, and ended up just getting my bio butchered to his colossus. I couldn't make great use of my vikings since he protected his colossi with stalkers.
It's embarrassing to lose to someone who starts off building 5 cannons, so yes I suck and feel free to tell me why :-). Thanks for any help!
On March 20 2010 17:09 Krikkitone wrote: From what I've heard Tanks (mix of Siege and Not), Banshees Thors+un sieged tanks/marauders for the Stalkers
I would definitely not advocate this strategy
You have the exact right strategy already and are likely not executing it correctly. Remember vikings have a 9 yard range so try to get as many shots on the colossus before it is on top of you as possible. When your armies engage, EMP everything (don't be afraid to EMP twice if you have the energy, colossus have 150 shields and emp can only do up to 100), stim, run in and target the colossus with everything. Vikings and marauders and marines can drop colossus extremely fast. If you want to micro it especially well try to have your maruaders in front of your marines as they can absorb the hits more easily. Stalkers are incredibly weak against all terran infantry dollar for dollar.
at 7:00 u could have killed him. don't get scared of canons. he didn't make immortals so u going marines was a big mistake against his ground game with collosus. u should have made more marauders. ur expanding was good. but it wouldn't have taken much to kill him off early game.
Thanks for all the tips, and thanks ahcho00 for watching my replay. I agree that it wouldn't have taken much to kill him off early game... this often happens where I do very well early on and have all but won and then end up losing in mid/late game.
I'll definitely try with more marauders and fewer marines next time.
One other thing to note, mauraders will do just fine against collossus if the collossus is not well protected. You can stim, rush in and snipe a collossus pretty quickly.
Marauders will completely demolish a stalker/colossi army. Marauders are very good against stalkers and colossi at the same time. A stalker/colossi army is effectively countered by MM.
Excellent, thanks again for the tips. Yeah, I'm not used to thinking of marauders as high-health units (since I'm used to the SC1 paradigm where infantry is weak). But yeah, it's pretty clear that I should stop pumping rax-reactors' worth of marines and instead focus more on marauders.
Marauder is the way to go. They eat Stalker and very good against colossus. Remember to upgrade stim and heatlh and weapon if possible. But stim is priority. And bring some Medivac with you... Marauder and Medivac army can sweep pure stalker and colossus out of the game at 10 or 11 minute marks
marine, marauder, ghost, viking, medivac is all you need. Also, if a guy opens with 5 cannons you're free to take an expo and say gg.
edit: watched the rep. 1800 mineral 0 gas means it's time to build your 3rd and 4th refineries and put a 3rd scv on your top left one. When you attacked the guys base you could have literally stood there and built a nuke at your base and nuked him. His army was totally dependant on you walking into his cannons. Your initial scout looked at his base then stood at the expo doing nothing. If it was sitting in his main you would have seen those cannons coming and could have just FE and/or reacted better for it imo. I would just mass games and get more used to the game coz that's the only way I think you can fix this type of mistake.
On March 21 2010 12:06 NotJack wrote: Just saying there's more you have to do than mass marauders to take them down
If P go stalker only...mass Marauders will eat the Protoss alive. Maurauders+stim>>stalker...really you dont need to do anything else. Even a ghosh is overkill
If you see that his Robotics Bay is vulnerable, as it was at 9:30, kill it and slow down his Colossus production.
Definitely build more Marauders, however if for some reason you find yourself heavy on Marines against Colossus, you have to stay ahead on upgrades so they 3-shot you instead of 2-shot you. Makes a world of difference.
Its very important to be careful with your early Vikings. If you keep them safe it won't be long until you reach a critical mass of Vikings, which is what it takes to really counter Colossus once they get 3 or more. You never want to stop making them as long as Colossus is in play.
Its not unusual for me to suicide my Vikings and kill all his Colossus and then immediately send my army in.
Advice has already been given in this thread, but I just had to say what's up to shockwave.xpow, one of the oldest of the old school SCGD Battle.net forum regulars!
Before engagements it's also helpful to send your vikings in ahead of your main army to take potshots at the colossi as they're closing in. Because of their superior range vs stalkers unless your opponent has blink you should be safely able to heavily damage or even take out a few before your main armies even clash. Be really careful once he does get blink however, as stalkers will just eat up vikings.
EMP is really good against Stalker and Collosus. Get lots of marine/marauder and SPREAD them. It's good to know that you know what "a-moving" is, but when it comes to Collosus that just wreaks Bio units, you have to spread your units. Use stim, and just create a nice arc around the Stalker/Collosus army.
If your macro and your build order is good, then you should be able to take down the army with half to 25% of your army left....maybe 10 because Collosus is imba! (jk) ^_^
On March 21 2010 11:34 NotJack wrote: You guys act like a marauder is a hard counter to a stalker, which isn't the case.
In TvP you should definitely have ghosts ready, and if you think you need it vikings are the easiest way to snipe of collosi.
Well, okay, stalkers get that damage bonus vs them, they do OMG 13 damage. Considering +1 marauders 4 shot emp'd (why not have ghosts anyway?) that's just brutal, especially with stimmed marauders hitting like twice as fast as stalkers. Colossus also aren't AS great against marauders than marines. (good, but not omg wtf 1 shot bbq good)
The only reason stalkers are used vs marauders is because you can have lots that take all the damage and are good against marines while stalkers do more damage against marauders. (Well, they do 1 less but I assume the ranged bonus results in more damage done, and possibly they hit faster)
I agree completely re: ghosts as they are hurting me in almost every late game now. I can elevator them, but the cost compared to the ghost is no good.
Who needs Ghosts to deal with Collossi? Spend the gas on Tanks + Medivacs + a ridiculous amount of Marauders. Make sure to get upgrades ASAP. Stimmed Marauders rush down Collossi and are amazing at kiting Zealots, Marauders have longer range than Marines and have a lot more HP so don't flop over instantly to someone who can micro his Collos. Vikings work amazing aswell if he's starting to get a lot of Collossi.
When you seriously have a shitload of Marauders he'll be forced to drop Collossi for Immortals, at which point Ghosts seriously start to shine as they let your Marauders roll over his army.
Honestly, I'm building less and less Marines vs Toss unless I'm going for a fast push before he can get the Robo bay units out.
On March 21 2010 12:08 jackofclubs81 wrote: the terran counter to protoss: GHOSTS
yea dude. learn how to use ghosts. just one or two peppered into your ball is enough to make protoss retreat and if they are bad they will just throw their army away with no shields instead of retreating.. either way is good.
The only reason stalkers are used vs marauders is because you can have lots that take all the damage and are good against marines while stalkers do more damage against marauders. (Well, they do 1 less but I assume the ranged bonus results in more damage done, and possibly they hit faster)
You're actually wrong about everything you said there. Zealot > Stalker in terms of dps regardless of the situation.
Can someone provide a replay with a nice Marine/Marauder/Ghost Build? Thanks in regards.
Edit: i just found a nice TvP from CowGoMoo vs. some protoss called aLT. The Protoss is pretty bad in terms of macro (huge minerals//gas overflow) but cowgomoo played a solid marine, marauder, ghost combination
Here's another replay of Cowgomoo using viking/marauder/medic against colossus/stalker/zealot. I learned a lot from watching this just now: , 3:40 mark
BTW ive been trying to play some of CGM's replays and it keeps telling me i need a file that isn't available locally.. any idea where to get them? i have the maps..
Stalker w/ Blink and range up Collosus can equal M3 + Viking. It comes down to positioning and micro, which is why there's so many mixed "solutions" posted here. Theoretically, you're better off with siege tank+Banshee support rather than viking support, but picking up that tech isn't always practical. This last sentence is for a conclusive statement that will solve your difficulty, but honestly there isn't one.
Hmm is there a "standard" opening build for TvP? I know there are tons of variants, and I get confused watching all the replays, so I'm just curious to get one that's fairly basic for someone who's learning the matchup?
On March 23 2010 04:42 shockwave.xpow wrote: Here's another replay of Cowgomoo using viking/marauder/medic against colossus/stalker/zealot. I learned a lot from watching this just now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZltCnantkcE , 3:40 mark
Oh god that announcer was unbearable. That fight was more protoss error than anything CGM did right. Toss ran back his collosi and then had his stalkers attacking the terran's ground foce which made running back the collosi pointless. All it accomplished was giving the vikings free hits while taking the collosi out of battle.
EPT
