On October 24 2015 06:24 Xatalos wrote: Seriously rayn, you hosted the game where he was scum and only trolled all game. You even talked to me on Skype how he didn't really play at all. Here his effort level was like 20-30x higher, yet you are mad about it. Following your logic, half of the players in this game are useless trolls, since he put in more effort than most. Especially Onegu/Hopeless/gumshoe.
Bro I've put way more effort into this game than you and def more than slam and thats Besides the fact that I wasn't pushing for a retarded lynch like half of town.
I've provided plenty of solid reasons all throughout day 1 for why I deemed gb, rayn and slam town. I scum read you initially and then realized I was flat out wrong before my idiocy impacted the lynch (something you could learn from).
Worst thing is, now you fucking group me with the people I wanted gone? That is total bullshit.
apologize to gumshoe + Lynch yamato/hopeless day 2= eat crow and profit.
What could I learn from? I was right.
But I agree that you have actually posted some stuff in this game. Although it's mostly been about policy lynching lurkers.
Maybe I should take a small break now. I don't usually get invested enough in games to insult people.
your wrong about Rayn / : if things had gone your way it would have been just as bad, only slam wouldnt have started crying green tears like Rayn.
Also scum have a harder time just talking than town / : whats wrong with looking at lurkers who have shit reads on top of being lurkers?
Also I deduced why Gb is town, I meta read rayn, I gut read slam, worked through some suspicions with Bh, didnt tinfoil against marv, accused Yamato of making a mafia play based off forbidden knowledge, went back and forth on chrom and you and ritoky. I've done tons of thinking and posting and you boiling it down to me accusing lurkers is super shitty
I hope you die tonight. And I dont mean in the game.
On October 24 2015 06:56 gumshoe wrote: Also I deduced why Gb is town, I meta read rayn, I gut read slam, worked through some suspicions with Bh, didnt tinfoil against marv, accused Yamato of making a mafia play based off forbidden knowledge, went back and forth on chrom and you and ritoky. I've done tons of thinking and posting and you boiling it down to me accusing lurkers is super shitty
I hope you die tonight. And I dont mean in the game.
...... Okay. But that's really what it boils down to, since the other stuff didn't have much impact during the day. At most it gathered responses like "scum post" or "useless wall of text" (not by me, mind you).
I have no power over how people chose to take what I've said. But I have been trying, and you of all people who have been harping about my lurker meta should appreciate that as opposed to taking low blows against me.
I will be back later with ANOTHER case against hopeless and Yamato. Others can feel free to call them lurker tunneling or shitty wot's if that makes them feel better. Cause you know who gets called a shitposter by everyone till thier blue in the face? The guy whose onto scum : D but isnt good enough to convince town to listen to him ) that or just a shitty player). Regardless I will continue to push the people I think are scum. Not the small horde of poor bastards town will likely go through in the days to come if they all act like you.
On October 24 2015 10:02 ritoky wrote: xata is right about this. slam was the least chupazi he has been in recent games. he was in fact significantly more serious than normal resulting in an around a 50% serious post rate which is astounding for him. as desperate as i am to try and ignore everything rayn posts, when he posts for 3 straight pages....anywayz his reaction is overblown and worthless.
Ritoky's switch onto Onegu last second makes very little sense as scum, if Onegu is town and gets bussed last sec, Ritoky looks terrible. If Onegue is scum, he just helped kill his teamate 0_0 seems like a dumb and unnecessary risk when town is already fixated on slam.
It's possible Ritoky was super confident Bh's lynch wouldn't go through, but then why bother at all? Just to distance himself from the slam lynch? Could backfire huge if Onegu actually did get lynched (would look like a last second buss off of Ritoky's buddy slam)
On October 24 2015 11:15 gumshoe wrote: Ritoky's switch onto Onegu last second makes very little sense as scum, if Onegu is town and gets bussed last sec, Ritoky looks terrible. If Onegue is scum, he just helped kill his teamate 0_0 seems like a dumb and unnecessary risk when town is already fixated on slam.
It's possible Ritoky was super confident Bh's lynch wouldn't go through, but then why bother at all? Just to distance himself from the slam lynch? Could backfire huge if Onegu actually did get lynched (would look like a last second buss off of Ritoky's buddy slam)
This post makes absolutely no sense. First do you really think with the 5 minutes in which BH came in people were going to switch.
And lets say there were last second switch onto me. Why is ritoky going to look terrible. Everyone knows voting analysis is terrible day one. And once I flip town what are you dumbasses going to do? You arent going to lynch ritoky you are going to be like everyone is terrible and we should have lynched slam yesterday we are going to lynch him today. Ritoky is scott free.
Every point here is bad. What looks worse is you giving me a town read but then saying you would vote me but then not.
Ritoky also voting because someone says so then once the mislynch is secured he moves onto another townie because it makes him not on a town play during the flip.
Gumshoe pointing this out and trying to make him look better bothers me alot.
Blazinghand gets the same thing as Ritoky. Why try to shennanie on me. Because BH knows if there is shennanies from a player like slam onto another town player means that slam is the focus for most of day 2. It is a win win.
Out of the 2 though I would say ritoky is the more suspicious of the 2. And would lynch him first.
There are a few more things I want to look into.
I really dont get xata's attacks of rayn and Marv. Like are his reads just that shit. Like most of my body wants to believe that.
I dont see a way Rayn is scum here. I just dont. The way he reacted to me. The way his reads are changing. His reaction to Slam being town and being lynched. This all comes from town rayn.
I am 99% giving my soul read on him.
Could also lynch hopeless here. Like I baited him and he did nothing about it and just went after easy lynches even after threatening me. His reads seem to just go along with thread sentiment.
Everyone else is fairly null to me.
I need to look at a few more things.
Really need to take a new look at Yamato. Really had a town feeling yesterday but meh.
use your brain plox, slam has a enough of wagon to get lynched. Ritoky jumps on a last second train to avoid the slam lynch. You flip town, Ritoky looks like he was bieng super oportunistic scum saving a player enough people considered scummy to lynch, he flips scum????? he kills his buddy for no reason? Ritoky coulda just afked through the lynch which was already set up for scum.
The only reason to get tangled up in a last second vote switch in that postion is to try and lynch actual scum. Only way it wasnt is if Ritoky is certain the lynch will fail, which again, is retardedly risky. Ritoky is town 0_0 if you dont see it your dumbs.
Personally the part where Rayn antagonizes the host feels really out of char for mafia. It's one thing to feign anger to avoid actually scum hunting after a mislynch. It's another to invite warnings from the host when your not even actually angry.
Like, that's the thing we have to consider above all. If Rayn is actual scum, then hes not even mad one bit. Hes happy in fact. I've seen Rayn easily get back on his feet as scum after a post mislynch (I was the mislynch) hes good enough a player that he doesn't have to explode into uselessness.
compare this post right after my mislynch-
Thank you Sentinel for listening to me on thrawn (or good job or whatever your reasoning was ^^). Apologies guys for D1 lynch, i was really bad and that was bad from me.
I'll shut up for some time so people can actually talk and we don't end up with a clusterfuck like D1 lynch. I was roleblocked.
to the shitstorm that we had after the slam lynch.
In that same scum game, he would go on to post reasonable shit like this soon after.
so this is what yamato is suggesting.
There are three blue claims. Me, Mr.SexyCake, and Sentinel can't all be mafia, so there are 2 scenarios he is considering:
1) Mr.CC and Sentinel are both fake-claiming and i am telling the truth. This can't possibly be true because that would mean there would be another blue claim and they would have shot their own scumbuddy. Town mislynched on D1 so instead of trying to mislynch on D2 they are giving town a mislynch by shooting their scumbuddy and instantly losing the game if someone claims blue on D2 (if someone claims we lynch one of Sent/CC or the blue claim - if the blue claim turns up blue, scum lose). This is ridiculosu to even consider.
2) I decided to fakeclaim parity cop 1h into the game instead of just not claiming. This makes no sense given that yamato knows how confident i am at my scumplay. Let's entertain a scenario that i did something very stupid (which i would never do) as mafia. The only reason i would do that as mafia is to assume there is no parity cop in the game - because one-one trade is ridiculous in a game where i can just mislynch 2 townies and win the game. There is no counter-claim. I have gained the town credit i was looking for. Good. What's my next move. I decide to buss my teammate thrawn by asking a vigilante to shoot him on N1. I already know there is no parity cop in the game because noone counter-claimed me, so the reasonable assumption is that there is a vigilante in the game. So i made a stupid and a risky claim that could end up in a 1-1 trade, when it worked, i make a stupid move that risks my scumbuddy being shot or lynched on D2 for town-credit i have already gained from my fake claim. In addition to all this stupidness thrawn, my scumbuddy, does not give me the town credit from my fake claim (which was the point of my scumteam in the first place) but instead attacks me and we go 1vs1 with him ensuring we pretty much tunnel each other on D2 - that will most likely end up in one of us getting lynched. So me, raynpelikoneet, did this as mafia, instead of... just lynching townies and playing scum as i normally do, by controlling the thread. Ridiculous.
Based purely on yamato even considering something this stupid he is mafia, 100%.
As opposed to spending all his time flaming Xatalos. Ignoring the fact that town Rayn has been known to implode on a regular game basis (I'm not super sure he doesn't do this as scum, the above post was only to demonstrate how level headed he could act as mafia) all the shitty inconsistencies hes making, such as how slam is a troll when really slam was super reasonable, are contradictions he doesn't need to fucking make if hes scum and level headed, after my lynch he doesnt go all "FAAAAK GUMSHOE YOU SCRUUUUB" he just moves onto the next point in his agenda. The only reason one would go off the handle and say all this stupid shit that is likely to get them lynched, is if they are emotional and why the fuck would a scum rayn be emotional? He won, he got his way, theres no need for the stupidity hes showcasing.
So whats more likely, that a scum Rayn would further antagonize a town already super biased against him post a mislynch he was responsible for, then bother the bloody host, thereby risking things for his team as well himself AND THEN fucking shoot his number one support(marv) when he couldve just shot xata and been like "of course scum shot xata, they are trying to fucking frame MEEEE FUCK SHIT FUCK TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLS!!!!!!!!!"
Or that Rayn is just super shit this game and is throwing a temper tantrum as Rayn tends to do? It is super super easy to lynch a townie on the principle of their behavior, it is also a fantastic way to lose.
Please townies, use dem heads. Would a happy scum Rayn (a player that you all think is pretty great at this game,( but I honestly feel is far too shit more often than not to justify his occasionally fantasitic scum hunting) forfiet all thread control in some kind of mad meta gambit? Nop, he would probs not. So lets all do ourselves a favour and not collectively pull a Rayn -_-
Hopeless has been truly worthless, Yamato has been next to worthless, we have 3 more mislynches left. How about we spend a day lynching a lurker? See how that works out pwease.
On October 26 2015 05:05 Blazinghand wrote: The part where rayn argues with the host doesn't sit right with me either, true. But if gas town rayn where has he been thus whole time?
Rage quitting, what else? Scum Rayn was in a fantastic position, he had Marv at his back, he couldve shot xata and taken the win out of the Rayn train, and just used meta as a reason for why Xata got shot and then he coulda just hustled like he tends to do as scum. At the very least a scum Rayn could've entirely prevented the possibility of a day 2 lynch of on himself.
Town Rayn just sees us as either stupid, or trolls. He has no desire to help us and at this point he wants to get mislynched because it will prove his point. I think for now it would be best to treat him as a jester, if a lynch on yamato or hopeless fails, then we can return to this retardation. But till then, show some respect/disgust for Rayn and leave the true troll alone to sulk under his brige.
On October 26 2015 05:25 ritoky wrote: wifom wifom wifom wifom wifom. scum rayn wouldn't risk modkill to the point where he got warned. wifom wifom wifom wifom.
I established that mafia Rayn can play objectively, then I proved that his play this game was objectively bad as scum, I showed how he could have easily put himself in a good position and instead shat the bed.
This isnt Rayn faking emotion as scum, because scum has no reason to fake emotion when they have better options/obvius. Rayn is just playing emotionally which scum have no reason to do because they are happy with the outcome of the lynch.
1)If you want to boil actual thought and effort down to wifom, please do, but understand that by acting like a total fucking douche instead of responding to my argument in a respectful way you are basically slaying our chances to consolidate on mafia together if were both town.
2). If you still think I'm scum then by all means please lead a lynch on me, if not then stop antagnonizing someone you probally need to win. Unless you care more about petty spite then winning / : in which case refer to the one.
ritoky you don't think Onegu is a suspect? I think he looks worse than Hopeless at least, and probably worse than yamato....
You all assume mafia has to look awful / : it really doesn't, it can even look fantastic (look at holyflaires games for example, he plays so well most times he makes it to to top of everyone's town lists with ease). Personally the dangerous ones are usually in the lower middle of the pack, my reason for suspecting Hopeless isnt as much hes a lurker as much as who hes lightly tied to, but I'll go into that in a bit.
On October 26 2015 05:40 ritoky wrote: i wanna take a moment to talk about xata, and why he isn't in the top of my town list; but why i cannot support a lynch on him today unless epiphanies are delivered upon me from the holy mafia mother.
xata might be town because he hasn't stopped thinking and posting thoughts even if they go too far into the future. he is considering things to the point of wasted brain power. further his activity is 1/4th of the entire thread (which makes it slightly unreadable at times). it is clear that the effort level is there, and as of now with how few people are actually attempting to solve the game, i am completely compelled to give out modest effort based reads alone. in terms of content he has thought more extreme versions of what i have thought on multiple occasions and has pushed for his word to be law.
why i am hesitant about xata is because of a game i played somewhat recently. there was this guy who some1 invited from another forum playing on TL for the first time i think. he came into the thread, spammed non-stop, yelled at everyone, didn't read what anyone typed, made multiple people want to quit/sub out of the game, and pushed some of the dumbest and most forced crap i have ever read. to me he was obvious mafia, but every1 else was all like "no way 1st time player on forums does x or is this toxic". he then subbed out and was replaced by a nice quiet dude on N2 or D3 who we never lynched and got rekt. the point of this whole story and references that i didn't look up is that xata has given me ripples of those same feels at points this game.
also i realized...i am getting shot in the face tonight aren't i? that blows.
I hate you, I hate and your town and I hate and I hope you get shot. But we really should work together, personally I think Xata is someone to look at late late once weve exhausted all other options. Going by the night 1 (marv/active townie) trend he might actually be shot in the next two days. Basic rule of thumb, dont lynch someone who who seems likely to get shot before the game ends. Atm we have 8 townies and 3 scum.
Which means we have 3 mislynches left till, which also means there going to be two more shots provided hit scum. Bh and xata are two people I could see dying via shot, in Xata's case if only to kill thread activity and throw shade on Rayn. Even if they are both scum, that still leaves a third member who we can lynch, so there's no reason to kill them till we have to. If scum directly avoid killing them by shooting players like me or you who aren't totally as clear, we can probally just call that a win for town without diving into wifom wifom wifom as you say.
On October 26 2015 05:52 ritoky wrote: i think you misread a lot of what i typed or something. but nice to know i have fans.
i wanna lynch gb, hopeless, rayn, and yamato atm.
might as well start somewhere, voted gb.
I read everything you said, "Xata is scum cause there was a dude this one time in another game who was all like, rude and talkative and totes mafia"
my reply was simply that theres no reason to kill someone who has a good chance to get shot and thats all the response I feel I needed to give to your argument.
As for Gb, he town.
think it's too early to lynch slam
This should probally tell you that Gb is totes town. The lynch momentum is falling off him, and what does he do? "Hey that guy whose supposed to die instead of me? Maybs lets him live."
Even if there scum buddies it makes no sense.
This is all I need to prove it, my argument was true then and is truer now. Gb was literally in the sites of Rayn Marv Yamato ect. The heat was completely on him, then it switches to Slam and what does he do? Protects a townie whose acting as a shield for him. He didn't even need to attack slam, all he had to do was not talk / : or go off on someone else. Gb also doesnt strike me as someone with an agenda, hes hot headed and walks into the flame as a result. Def not my first choice for scum.
On October 24 2015 01:00 GlowingBear wrote: I think it's too early to lynch slam
Your argument is that GB, as mafia, would never defend the lynch target like this because it would turn suspicion back towards him. This post is literally never going to convince anyone not to vote Slam. Like... as mafia he's 100% safe making this post because it will have 0 effect on whether people vote Slam or not.
He says that Slam is town again later closer to lynch, but at that point there were 0 votes on GB and 4 on Slam, so GB isn't even a lynch target at all.
You assume Gb is bieng totally level headed / : as a scum player, I personally feel tremendous fear to do things that directly contribute to my death or the death of my teamates. We can deduce that Gb was emotional, which is not impossible to be as scum (especially when your actually in a losing position, as opposed to where Rayn was) off his outburst in thread. When the Slam wagon switched, unless Gb is a tremedous actor immense releif would have rolled over him. To then have right away have the peace of mind to recognize your own powerlessness and do something that directly hurts your cause is something I do not think scum Gb could accomplish on his own, given his mental state, and I doubt he would be coached to do by his team.
That and I read him as a fuck up townie, not a desperate scummer / : but thats more a feel thing that comes from lots of games of bieng a fuck up townie than anything else, so its harder to elaborate on.
Alright, well I figured I wasn't gonna get shot last night even if Yamato is scum, because it would be a spotlight on him when the focus was already on Rayn, but I should've made this case before then just to make sure.
Yamato has only two pages of filter, we are rapidly reaching what could be the midway point of the game and I think it's not unfair to say that as of yet he has not contributed in any meaningful way. Beyond that, he has committed several grave sins in his short span of posts. My argument against him will center around these sins : P This post will talk about the first sin.
Sin 1: The sin of vague self affirming reads(and a dash of Hypocrisy as a bonus).
Yamato generally has made super vague shallow reads this game, but one could write that off as just his post style, so I'm going to focus on the most suiting event to avoid wasting yalls time : P Early on in the game, Yamato passively gave off a scum read on Slam, if you missed it I dont blame you cause it was super vauge and pretty hard to pin down.
Slam I don't really agree on.
(in response to somebody town reading Slam)
we get confirmation on this soon after,
Ritoky, slam, bh, onegu all likely mafia? I disagree on at least one
We can assume based off how Yamato hinted at his displeasure with Slam earlier, that Slam was not the one person he would take off this scum list / : from these two quotes, we can reliably piece together what was and is an extremely vague scum read. One that he never actually provides reasons his own reasons for.
He says this as well
I disagree on ritoky and I don't have a solid read on any of BH, slam, or Onegu
which means at some point his Slam read was downgraded from not town to fuzzy? Again there's nothing to hint at the thought process behind this fluctuation.
Later on, once the wagon started up on Slam Yamato chimed in
slam not a terrible lynch given his insistence on being "unreadable"
I think as town he becomes indignant and actually mad if people try to lynch him, this seems more like a mafia tactic.
Issue is, this isnt his read, it's basically Marv's that was made several hours before.
like the post I quoted from Slam up there - I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong, but it doesn't feel at all how town Slam reacts to someone like rayn voting for him?
Yamato puts his own spin on it, but the sentiment of "this isn't how Slam reacts to pressure" is identical. He doesnt ever offer up his own reasons for why Slam is scum, which is strange because as we established he all but scum read Slam at the start.
So naturally, seeing this wierd gap of reasoning I asked him what was going on. This was his reply.
you bore me
what do you think about them?
going back now and explaining why I thought those things at that time is pointless
not much has changed
Not much has changed confirms he did find slam scummy at the start, but has no reasons for it but what Marv provided? Also this is the only time this game that somone has actually refused to answer a question 0_0 doesnt that bother you people?
compare this to my talk with bh at the start.(its long, you can just take my word for it but if you want it's here)
Bh, question, if your town please be honest : D were you planning this from the get go? Did you have your post pre written? When did you conceive the idea to use the random tl tag info? Would you have done this if you were mafia?
if this was all pre thought up (which it seems to me it was) than it might not be any better than a glorified "hi, im town."
not that this at all detracts from your argument for rng(which has it's convincing points but I still feel is a last resort) it's the possibility of you using this opening banter as an aegis that worries mah / :
"From the get go" --> I wasn't particularly thinking of using RNG, but it's one of my most useful tools for hunting and lynching scum. I'd say I use it more often than not nowadays when I play. When the game started, I was like "you know what would be great here? Given the setup and the player list, this is perfect for RNG" and then I did it.
"pre written" --> I copied/pasted it from the last time I used RNG, then filled in the names and list size from this game. The second RNG post where I announced the result, I also copied/pasted, so in a sense, yes, this was prewritten
"when did you think of random tl tag info?" --> I first thought of this idea in September of 2013, and I used it for the first time in November 2013. Since then I've used it probably 5-10 times in games here on TL.
"would you have done this if you were mafia?" --> the answer to this question is always "yes". I'm willing to lie, cheat, steal, doctor photographs, put items in boxes, fake plane tickets, pretend to have depression, a death in the family, etc, whatever it takes to win regardless of alignment. I'm one of the few players that does not pull punches as mafia. So yes, as mafia, I'd be fully willing to RNG if I percieved it to be a good idea (which it isn't; I've outlined why RNG is pro-town this game)
Yamato may be lazy, but when one townie asks another townie questions, the above is the usual result (ie one townie answers as honestly as possible and the other townie reacts to those answers) Yamato is not so bad that he wouldn't recognize the shitstorm inherent in straight up refusing to answer another player trying to figure out your alignment.
Maybe, just maybe hes so lazy and apathetic that he doesn't care, but you know what? It's more likely that Yamato a) felt that any answers he would give were going to be shit derived from a bull and would just weaken his currently strong position and b) that he could get away with not answering because town had given him a total pass and was focused on Slam (seriously, everybody was town reading yam at this point, it was uncanny.) These fears and considerations do not belong to a town player. They are the machinations of a scum player who gave a bullshit read at the start (which it most certainly was, especially considering Slam was playing better than I have ever seen him play) and then justified it as he went with someones elses case. If the slam train hadnt started up I'm certain Yamato would have never pointed out Slams reaction / : he probs woulda carried on and found someone else to nib at. This I feel is backed up by that post where he secretly down graded his slam lynch (probably in concert with Slam not really offering much to go after)
To qoute Yamato himself
. I think mafia GB randomly decided to scumread someone and fabricated the reason over multiple posts.
I bilieve this is exactly what was going on with Yamato's slam read(yay hypocrisy!)
THIS HAS BEEN, THE FIRST SIN, OF YAMATO COMING UP YAMATO, AN ALL SEEING GOD??!
I'm only gonna post the second sin after responses to the first to avoid thread clutter. I wanna focus discussion on the following- Based off Yamato's undeniably sketchy interaction with Slam, plus his overall lack of contribution to town, why would he not be todays best lynch?
Even if you do consider the points vs players like Chrome, GB, Rayn and Onegu(player I would most want to lynch after Yamato) valid, which I dont in most cases / :, how are any of them a superior lynch to a shitty lurker who had a very obviusly scummy dynamic with the day 1 mislynch?