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On July 13 2013 07:41 jrkirby wrote:Ok. I've been studying this long and hard, and I think I have enough evidence to make a clear case. hzflank is scum+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2013 04:04 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 03:22 WaveofShadow wrote:On July 09 2013 03:20 hzflank wrote:On July 09 2013 02:13 Stutters695 wrote:Obligatory USE YOUR COACHESWe're great guys and here to help With WoS as the scum coach, I do not think that town will need your assistance. Uh, ouch? Need I remind you that you won a game with Ace as the scum coach too? I meant it as a compliment. Sometimes the greatest players are the worst coaches because you just cannot teach pure brilliance. Clearly, hzflank is lying about this compliment. Liars are always scum. And look who he's talking to: the scum coach. Obviously he's in league with them. He goes on, still talking to the scum: On July 09 2013 04:22 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2013 04:09 Hurricane Sponge wrote: If you vote for an hzflank lynch based on pregame meta, I will fall instantly in love with you. Then scum should night kill the first person to vote for me, because as their lover you will also die. This is an obvious admission that he wants town to die. Anyone who wants town to die is scum, end of story. On July 13 2013 04:19 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:09 Chromatically wrote: I won't be here for two hours after start. Then who will call my first post scummy? I will. Right here, right now. And for his first post: On July 13 2013 07:11 hzflank wrote: So we are using a majority vote system. As we all know there is much more chance of a No Lynch with this system than with plurality voting.
I think it is in our best interest to try to lynch someone every day. This may seem a bit odd at first, because a mis-lynch is obviously better for scum than for town. However, the only way that town will win is by lynching scum, and we will never be sure if we are lynching town or scum unless the lynch actually goes through. If we narrowly fail to lynch then we end up spending the next day discussing it and do not move forward as much.
Also, scum already know who they are. When someone is lynched the alignment information from their flip benefits town, but not scum.
Therefore, I suggest we work together as much as possible to actually get lynches through, if they are in doubt. He's trying to get us to sheep together and follow a Bandwagon instead of looking for evidence and finding scum. Finally: On July 13 2013 07:31 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 07:26 Koshi wrote: Are there experienced players here? People that played a decent amount of games. Everyone here has played 3 or less games. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 07:24 Koshi wrote: Hi all. I played 1 newbie game in the TL+ forums and I am atm also playing in the nuclear mafia game. I am with Rainbows on the lynching of lurkers. The tl+ game got RUINED because nobody posted. So if you are town, I want you to make around 10 posts a day. Try to make posts that are aggressive and confront people with your thought. Don't be afraid to be wrong. If you are town, please consider doing this to help town and force scum to make posts.
I think it is a bit early to be thinking about policy lynches on lurkers. Policy lynching can stifle discussion and we need discussion today. Once we get 24-36 hours in then we can consider it. Also, sometimes RL just happens for a day or two. Also, I think that there will be enough activity here. There are several players who I know will post a lot and we (the active players) cannot all die really early. Trying to defend one of the scum who is planning to lurk. You can't ignore all this evidence guys. hzflank is scum. ##Vote: hzflank
Sometime's it's hard being green . If only I had a Donkey companion to help me.
I would like to commend you for voting in this thread as well as the voting thread, as it will make it easier to read back through the game later.
I am highly confident that there will be a lurker in this game, but knowing that does not make me scum, it means that I have played with StimAddict before and he lurked hardcore while being town. Lurkers are a pain, but I just don't want to keep discussing lurking at this very early stage, when half the players have not even posted yet.
Thanks for the vote though, it should help us get things moving.
Oh, and I assume that you are not serious about the no-lynch stuff. If that's the case then no need to mention it, but if you seriously think that no lynches would be good then I would like to hear why.
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Sponge, we cannot know for sure if that was actually written pre-game so I am treating it like it was written after the game started.
On July 13 2013 08:03 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Upon realizing the importance of identifying my own biases, I am hereby disclosing everything I think I know now. If you catch me treating you based on any of the following, ask me to support it with analysis from this game if you feel I'm being unfair or displaying bias
Why are you giving people advice on how to refute your cases against them, before you even make the cases?
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On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote: While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on.
How does the cop inform the town without letting the scum know that he is the cop?
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On July 13 2013 08:42 Umasi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 08:40 hzflank wrote:On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote: While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on. How does the cop inform the town without letting the scum know that he is the cop? That's not even specific to this no lynch strategy, or whatever how will the cop EVER let town know the result without revealing he's a cop? (I certainly have no fucking clue)
To get this out of the way right now, if anyone has any questions such as this regarding blue roles then I suggest you talk to a coach. We are all VTs in here.
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I think Jrkirby's and Sponge's opening posts had the same motivation: to get discussion moving. Both have done this and we have multiple discussions taking place.
Since then, Sponge did a little coaching. Sponge has come under pressure from multiple people (for his opening post), and has dealt with it while being reasonably open. The only time that he has not been open is by refusing to post the other version of his opening post. Sponge did a little coaching again as he tried to stop Umasi from defending him. So far my read on Sponge has moved very slightly towards town.
Since his opening, Jrkirby has attacked Sponge for his opening post, and done nothing else. That's fine because it is early and Jrkirby is pushing to get a reaction from someone. This is not scummy to me, null read.
Umasi has defended Hurricane, which cannot be viewed as scummy at this point. Umasi has attacked Superfluous. I would say that this attack could be scummy as it is based on nothing, but it could just be to get Super to post more (he only has one post). Umasi then repeats that he thinks Super's post is scummy and votes for him. The problem I have with this is that Umasi claims Super's only post was scummy, when I do not think that it was.
On July 13 2013 08:33 Superfluous wrote: While I agree that we should lynch someone if they are super scummy, I'd like to point out that voting for no lynch is an option. Assuming I'm interpreting the rules/setup right, mafia only has 1 kp so there's no immediate motive for lynching such as reducing kp. It may be a stronger play to not lynch and hope that cop(if there is one) gets a turn to check before lynch. It is a risk though because I believe we are not guaranteed to have a cop. Just an idea I wanted to throw out and get your guys' thoughts on.
If Umasi was looking for a reaction then I do not understand why he posted:
On July 13 2013 08:59 Umasi wrote: Where the hell are you. You popped in, gave a single post, that I think is scummy as crap, still haven't show back up. Pretty confusing, because the post you gave was irrelevant.
How was Super's post scummy as crap? I do not think that Umasi is looking for scum, and if he is not just fishing for Super to respond then I think that Umasi is just looking for a neutral place to put his early vote. Unlike Jrkirby's, Umasi's vote is not a troll vote.
I have a slight scum read on Umasi.
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On July 13 2013 09:44 Rainbows wrote: What do you think about Stims reaction, HZ? He kinda derailed to some soft pressure :/
The first thing to note is that Stim was unsure of whether Jrkirby's post was a joke or not. Stim reacted very different than everyone else did, but this could be because he viewed it as semi-serious while everyone else viewed it as a joke.
After that Stim tries to defend himself. Again Stim's reaction seems odd at first, but normal if you consider that Stim thinks the original case was serious. Stim is posting in an aggressive manner but that is more of a personality tell than an alignment tell.
I cannot help but be wish-washy here and conclude: I am eager to see more from Stim because I have absolutely no read on his alignment at this point.
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Stim was caught lying about the motivation behind his posts. In my opinion, lying about motivation is one of the scummiest things a person could do on day 1. Stim's defence was to martyr, and I am not willing to give anyone credit for martyring.
As far as I am concerned that is a red mark against Stim. During the course of the game everyone gets red marks against them. The important thing is to look at each red mark and ask 'Could that have come from a town position?'. In this case I think it could of come from a town position, based on my earlier assumption that Stim took the original post too seriously and later tried to invent justification for his posts based on a less serious early position. A red mark, but not enough to make me highly confident that he is scum.
The other important thing about red marks is to get a feel for how many there are compared to green marks and posts in general. This is where the martyring is a problem, as we need Stim to continue to contribute.
@Stim,
I suggest that you move on. Instead of discussing what has already happened, dive some filters and form the best reads that you can. Then post your reads, showing as much of your reasoning as you can. This will give us new things to discuss with you, so that you do not have to keep talking about that happened yesterday.
If you do not post again then the red mark will still be there but there will not be any green marks to balance it.
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On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank
Anything specific?
On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy.
I disagree. When I made that post Umasi had not really done anything that I thought was pro town. He may have since been pro town, but I am not finished with my catch up and analysis so I will comment on that later. Additionally, I think my original point on Umasi was a good one at the time it was posted.
On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of.
I disagree again. My first three posts might be viewed that way, but in fact we were trying to stimulate discussion at the time and I believe that it was beneficial to make those posts in the hope of starting more discussion.
From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association.
You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me.
Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read.
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On July 13 2013 21:54 Koshi wrote: Reading Umasi his filter after the Chroma filter makes me want to lynch one of these 2 guys. Umasi and Chroma are either bromancing it up on the stimaddict lynch, or they are both scum. Here is Umasi his game till now: --> Defend Sponge while pushing lynch on Superfluous. --> Argue with Sponge about Chroma while pusing a lynch on StiMaDDict.
Try to stay away from day 1 associations. I have some prior with this and I can tell you that you cannot read anything into it until you see a flip.
I have been looking into Umasi. He has posted a lot of fluff and there seem to be some inconsistencies with his scum-hunting where he provides good reasoning for some reads but not for others. He also seems a little too sure that certain other players are town.
My conclusion on Umasi was that I do not want him to be lynched at this time. Notice that is not me saying that I have a strong town read on him. I think it is unlikely that scum would of posted as much as Umasi has. I think it is unlikely that scum would be so willing to sheep at this early stage of day 1. Mostly, I think that Umasi will continue to be active and certainly has the capacity to post some good analysis in the near future. I think that there are at least 2 players who are more likely to be scum than Umasi, not counting the lurkers or people who I have not yet fully read into.
Therefore, I do not want Umasi to be lynched at this time.
As for Chrom, I think his interactions with Stim seemed to come from a town point of view. He pushed a little and then when he voted he did so with a genuine reason. Chrom pushed his read for a while which I think is standard.
Koshi, what do you think of Super?
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On July 14 2013 01:51 StiMaDDict wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2013 10:32 jrkirby wrote:Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read.My vote on hzflank was kinda a combo of joke/pressure as you guys pointed out. It got a bit of discussion, but didn't get much of a rise out of hzflank, who I currently have null read on. I guess I should unvote him now, since the pressure obviously didn't do too much. ##unvote: hzflank A list of suspicion list that doesn't have "legitimate" reasons or evidence. So he does feel suspicious about Sponge afterall about him not sharing his opening post in time, I'm assuming. About Rainbow, I am not sure. He words in a confusing way. In last game, jkirby thought Rainbow was scum but he was a town. So in this game he thinks Rainbow is a town but he could be a scum or vise versa? Concerning Umasi, his reasoning it not satisfying either. Also he doubts his ability to read other people.
This is a point in Stim's case that I think deserves extra attention. Kirby says he suspects three people and provides a weak reason for one of them and no reason for the others. If I had three scum reads then I would know why I thought them to be scummy, or at the very least I would investigate further to see whether my read held up to analysis.
Kirby, can you tell us why you had a scum read on Rainbows and Umasi? Do you still have scum reads on them (or Sponge)?
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Thanks Sponge, your take on Gotard is roughly the same as mine.
On July 14 2013 03:30 Rainbows wrote: I think Gotard is mafia
I don't think that anything in Rainbows' case is strong. However, I think that Gotard looks really scummy for other reasons.
I don't mind lists if they are useful. The problem that I have with that list is that I do not see a single scum read on it, even though in Gotard's next post he mentions that he has 'biggest scum reads'. I am wondering: who are his biggest scum reads?
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On July 14 2013 04:29 Superfluous wrote: I don't see how hzflank and xzavier have contributed substantially more than me. While knowing everyone's scum reads is good, I don't like it when people show up, say their scum reads, then expect other people to act on them.
I expected you to act on one of my posts. I posted this for you: + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2013 00:38 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank
Anything specific? Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. I disagree. When I made that post Umasi had not really done anything that I thought was pro town. He may have since been pro town, but I am not finished with my catch up and analysis so I will comment on that later. Additionally, I think my original point on Umasi was a good one at the time it was posted. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of.
I disagree again. My first three posts might be viewed that way, but in fact we were trying to stimulate discussion at the time and I believe that it was beneficial to make those posts in the hope of starting more discussion. From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association. You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me. Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read. .
You did not respond to me. How can you accuse me of not acting on my reads when you refused to answer my question?
You still have not answered my question, which leads me to believe that you are unable to provide a believable answer. To be clear, the question is: why did you initially find me scummy?
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On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank, cloud 9, night cat and other lurkers I've forgotten. Koshi and Gotard have euro time zones so it makes sense that they weren't active early on
On July 14 2013 04:45 Superfluous wrote: I am suspicious of Hzflank because he had posts which didn't contribute or add anything (he defended it by saying it's his style of getting discussion started) and because he posted early on then didn't post much afterwards.
So you are suspicious of me due to the times of the day that I post, but other Europeans do not get suspicion for the same reason?
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Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's SuperScum.
Super introduces himself as a player who understands that people cannot always respond to posts quickly and as a player who thinks that applying pressure on other players is a good thing. His later posts do not exhibit these traits at all.
On July 13 2013 09:53 Superfluous wrote: I apologize for not answering sooner, the other forums I have played on move much slower and there arent 2 and a half pages of posts after being gone for just 3-4 hours. I would be annoyed at your pushing but I think in general its a good town move as it forces information out of people.
Before even starting to scum-hunt, Super is concerned with self-preservation. He is not even interested in getting good conversation flowing to produce information. Self-preservation comes first.
On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 09:55 Umasi wrote: Superfluous, do you have any current scum reads? At the moment no, as I said I was gone for a couple hours then came back and just skimmed through the thread . I mean to go through it again in more detail once I'm finished defending myself or w/e.
One of the first things that Super says comes to his mind is that Cloud has not posted yet. Why is this the next thing that Super thinks of, after self-preservation? He later gives a reason but I cannot understand how he arrived at that train of thought.
On July 13 2013 10:05 Superfluous wrote: Two things are on my mind though. One is that I think you are town (not just to suck up to you b/c you are pressuring me). Reasons being that in my personal experience those who are most aggressive are generally town, and also that this is a semi-noob game so I'm unsure if a mafia would have the confidence to go out and control the game/ put pressure on early on. Another thing is that I dont think I've seen much (if anything) from Cloud 9. He may be in same situation as me and I'll give him Benefit of the doubt though.
On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: Cloud 9 was a name I didn't see when comparing the posts I saw to the player list, so I pointed it out.
Next Super says that he has not yet scum-hunted, but so far I was his biggest scum read. That would be fine if his reads were fluid after he actually did some scum-hunting. As we will see later though, his read on me persists until I really hammer home the point that there is no good town motivation for his read on me.
Also, why is he so worried that posting this early read might push him to being lynched? I think that it is because he already knows that he cannot actually justify his read on me.
On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: In my own post I said that I was going to look it over again and get reads, obviously meaning that I hadn't looked that hard for scum yet.
Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. If it pushes to me actually being lynched I think that I'd still feel this way. He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of.
Next, Super calls me a lurker but says that the other Europeans should be excused for not posting much. I had already made several posts at this point and am a European myself.
He says that he wants to see more from me, but does not give any indication of what he wants to see. When I later make posts directed towards him he completely ignores then as though they are invisible. If he had a scum read on me and wanted to see more, why does he not reply to my posts?
On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank, cloud 9, night cat and other lurkers I've forgotten. Koshi and Gotard have euro time zones so it makes sense that they weren't active early on, and right now they are trying to contribute something so they're town reads for me.
On July 14 2013 00:38 hzflank wrote: From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association.
You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me.
Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read.
Next Super says that he still thinks I am scum. His reasons are that I have not posted anything which contributed to finding scum. I may be biased on this point, but I do not see how a town Super could say that I had not been contributing. Note that I stopped playing at around 2 AM my time last night, but Super seems to think that it was scummy of me to stop posting. Why would a town player think that?
On July 14 2013 04:45 Superfluous wrote: Maybe I didn't make it clear enough in my posts, but my reasons for Hzflank and xzavier were not only because of association. I am suspicious of Hzflank because he had posts which didn't contribute or add anything (he defended it by saying it's his style of getting discussion started) and because he posted early on then didn't post much afterwards.
Now, Super is still more concerned with self-preservation that with finding scum. He also gently suggests that we should consider a no lynch. If a town player was under pressure at this point they would push a scum-read as hard as they could, but they would not try for a no lynch. Super switches his primary scum read from me to Xzavier, without ever saying why I suddenly became less scummy or Xzavier became more scummy (as Xzavier has not posted in a long time). This is still self-preservation without pushing a scum target with any significant force.
On July 14 2013 05:14 Superfluous wrote: Admittedly I am giving reads more to get off my back than to help us. I'm trying to get reads, but nothing is super strong so I'm not going to jump to lynch someone. I would vote for xzavier right now because he's my strongest read, but thats because we have to vote not because I feel he's 100% scum It really hurts us to lynch town day one, which is the same reason I brought up the idea of no lynching, and the same reason I'm trying to relieve pressure from myself.
To conclude, Super's priorities seem to be 1) Stay Alive 2) Find a person to vote for 3) Find justifications for voting
That is how scum plays and that is not how town plays.
##Vote: Superfluous
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On July 14 2013 07:04 Chromatically wrote: Trying to stay alive isn't a scumtell though. Let's say that you come back to the thread and see a case on you. Your forat order of business, as would be any townie's, is to defend yourself.
I really think that Super is just new. His posting doesn't feel like scum. He makes an honest effort to scumhunt, he points out things that he thinks are scummy (ex: one random sponge post).
When the game starts on day 1 the first order of business is not to stay alive, but to create an environment in which scum can be found. The second order of business is to find scum. If you do these things then you do not have to worry about staying alive. While Super may be new he does say that he has experience on other forums. There was not a case on him, only some very light pressure. There was no need for him to defend himself rather than looking for scum.
I feel like I gave him a chance to explain his reads and he failed to do so. He did not have to give me reasoning that I fully agree with, he just had to show me reasoning that I can understand from a town point of view. It is very scummy that he avoided the questions and later gave answers that I cannot understand.
He says that Xzavier is his current scum read, which is obviously a reasonable town position at this point. Super's reasoning there is understandable, but has not yet attempted to strengthen the read. What does he expect people to do about gut feelings?
I cannot see anything in Super's filter that looks town.
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On July 14 2013 05:56 Chromatically wrote: Kirby Stim's case on Kirby takes a lot of stuff that's not scummy and says it is, but it also has good points (some of which are probably repeated here).
Here's what I don't like: a) fluff about Sponge's first post b) wishy-washy reads c) lurker list d) Stim interactions
Kirby was probably 3rd on my radar, so I am not surprised that you posted this. I will explain why I thought that he was scummy in relation to your points, and add something regarding Stim that you missed.
a) I do not mind the early fluff. The problem I have is that Kirby's filter is full of fluff. Apart from the Stim stuff it's basically all fluff. If Kirby had improved his posting without this prompt I would have been more comfortable with him.
b) I think that having flexible reads is a good town sign, although that might be because I prefer to remain flexible myself. I agree with your point though, a town player would give a read at any point in time and then later change that read based on developments.
c) I don't mind lists so I just included that post in the fluff pile.
d) To me, the biggest thing about the Stim interactions is that Kirby called Stim stupid. There is no reason to call Stim stupid unless he is trying to fan the flames and there is no reason to do that while he was seemingly trying to get Stim to remain calm and post.
On the whole I agree with your case and I am looking forward to seeing Kirby's response to it. However, I am not convinced that Kirby has more chance of flipping scum than Super. I will consider it some more.
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On July 14 2013 07:39 Umasi wrote: Are you still going to stick with Gotard when there are more compelling cases out there to be on? (At least, ones that I think are more compelling)
Let's not let Gotard off of the hook that easily. He still has not given us a firm scum read with reasoning behind it.
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On July 14 2013 13:31 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote + To conclude, Super's priorities seem to be 1) Stay Alive 2) Find a person to vote for 3) Find justifications for voting
This is literally a list of objectives as either alignment. Town obviously wants to stay alive. Finding a person to vote for with reasoning is also town.
That list does not apply to either alignment. The first objective for town is to hunt scum, because that is the only way that town wins and we should all be playing to win. As town, if you are scum-hunting then there is a reasonable chance that no one will make a case against you, and even if they do it is not a terrible thing. When a town player has to defend themselves they should do so as strongly as they can and then continue with their scum hunting.
A town player should not put survival first, but a scum player should. If you want to argue that it was bad town play that is one thing, but you (Chrom) should not be telling newbie players to put their survival before their scum-hunting, because that reduces the quality of town's play and reduces the chance of us winning the game.
On July 14 2013 13:31 Chromatically wrote:In particular, I really like these two posts: Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 04:29 Superfluous wrote:Going back through the posts, I'm a little alarmed at Hurricane Sponge's change of tone. In this post he disagrees with my opinion and says it casts suspicion on me, but doesnt state that I'm a huge scumread or anything. Here I interpreted his post as acknowledging that while we disagree, I was still trying to state my opinion and reasons for having that view. He then says some weird things here though. For instance, he says that he agrees with others' view of me who had semi-defended me, and in the same list puts me as the only scum read. I realize his view may have changed, but it strikes me especially considering in the second post I listed he acknowledged the possibility of a bandwagon on me just because of differing opinions. We also have a mutual disagreement on reads as well. I don't see how hzflank and xzavier have contributed substantially more than me. While knowing everyone's scum reads is good, I don't like it when people show up, say their scum reads, then expect other people to act on them. As for Stim I think he's more likely bad town then mafia. Then again everyone else is saying the same thing, so could be mafia excuse for not lynching him. Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 04:37 Superfluous wrote: Also, idk what is up with jrkirby. If there was a third party that'd be my guess for him, right now just null read I guess though. This is because his play has been somewhat erratic with no clear goal to me other than tunneling on Sponge, which didn't really do much. He strikes me as the type of player who could be dangerous late game for us because he seems hard to read. Im curious jrkirby, what has been your goal with your posts thus far? Super wasn't under any pressure when he posted these. He's actively reading the thread, looking for scum, and most importantly sharing his thought process with the thread. This is very, very genuine and townie.
Actually, Super was under a little pressure when he posted those as I had already posted this:
On July 14 2013 00:38 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 23:56 Superfluous wrote: I'd still like to here some more from Hzflank
Anything specific? Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: Right now my biggest scum read is HZflank, because I still think Umasi is doing mostly pro town moves yet hz says its scummy. I disagree. When I made that post Umasi had not really done anything that I thought was pro town. He may have since been pro town, but I am not finished with my catch up and analysis so I will comment on that later. Additionally, I think my original point on Umasi was a good one at the time it was posted. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 12:24 Superfluous wrote: He also had an early post or two that distracted somewhat from the discussion, which I'm always suspicious of.
I disagree again. My first three posts might be viewed that way, but in fact we were trying to stimulate discussion at the time and I believe that it was beneficial to make those posts in the hope of starting more discussion. From what I can tell, your thought process was: Super thinks that Umasi is town and hzflank thinks Umasi was scummy, therefore Super thinks that hzflank is scummy. Now Super needs to add reasons for why he thinks hzflank is scummy because Super's read should not be based on that weak day 1 association. You may notice that since the conversation really started to flow in the way that we want it to, I have not made many posts but every single post I have made is dedicated to finding scum. Yet, of all the people you could find scummy for posting distractions you chose me. Please tell me where I am wrong? To be specific, I do not believe your reasons for having me as your biggest scum read and I want to understand how I actually came to be your biggest scum read.
That is me putting pressure on Super before he ever did any scum hunting. Super also completely ignored it, which means that either: he is not properly reading the thread, he was scared to reply to me because he knew that I was on to him, or he thought that it was not worth defending because the quality of his town play meant that he would not be a lynch candidate anyway.
As town he should be properly reading the thread and as town he should not be scared to reply to me. I am surprised if he thought he could not be a lynch target today.
I still think that Super is really scummy.
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Also Chrom, What is this?:
On July 14 2013 13:31 Chromatically wrote:
Finding a person to vote for with reasoning is also town.
No it is not! Finding a reason to vote for someone is town. Finding a person to vote for with reasons is very much not town.
What concerns me right now is that you know that. I cannot believe that you believe that.
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I'll drop it for now, to avoid messing up the thread at a time where it is not constructive.
On July 15 2013 00:25 Chromatically wrote: I'm really tempted to do a large defense of Super where I go through your cases point by point, but I'll leave it up to you if you'd rather hear from Super first.
Your defense would be valuable so you should definitely post it at some point. The best thing is probably to write it and save it until Super posts, or if he doesn't then post yours a few hours before deadline.
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