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On June 26 2013 14:10 Alakaslam wrote: ...
Medic, I really hope you exist. You should know who to protect right now. If you think I'm asking for guard you are daft, but I assume you know who needs it. There is no medic in this setup (check the OP). There is the possibility for a Jailkeeper, which is similar.
I'm not interested in discussing who they should or shouldn't target and I suggest nobody else discusses this either. This is because unlike the Vigilante a Jailkeeper can't do much harm to town and can do a lot of good, especially if scum have absolutely no idea who they are or who they're targeting.
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On June 26 2013 14:42 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 14:24 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 26 2013 14:19 hzflank wrote: EBWOP:
@Hurricane
Correction to that question:
If you had to Vig kill someone tonight, but all players looked equally scummy, who would you shoot? This is WIFOM hell. If I pick a target, say 'StiM' and that target is actually town, the mafia will let me shoot away and bury my team. If I pick a target, say 'hzflank' and that target is mafia, the mafia can roleblock me tonight and send a Goon to kill me. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that you look SUPER DUPER like scum right now, unless you're actually the Vig. ... My point was: Aqua is bulletproof tonight (from the scum NK). Even if they are both town and the scum want Onegu lynched day 2, they still will not NK Aqua tonight. I'm curious to know why you think this is so.
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On June 26 2013 14:48 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 14:46 Aquanim wrote:On June 26 2013 14:42 hzflank wrote:On June 26 2013 14:24 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 26 2013 14:19 hzflank wrote: EBWOP:
@Hurricane
Correction to that question:
If you had to Vig kill someone tonight, but all players looked equally scummy, who would you shoot? This is WIFOM hell. If I pick a target, say 'StiM' and that target is actually town, the mafia will let me shoot away and bury my team. If I pick a target, say 'hzflank' and that target is mafia, the mafia can roleblock me tonight and send a Goon to kill me. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that you look SUPER DUPER like scum right now, unless you're actually the Vig. ... My point was: Aqua is bulletproof tonight (from the scum NK). Even if they are both town and the scum want Onegu lynched day 2, they still will not NK Aqua tonight. I'm curious to know why you think this is so. Please, dear god no. Before anyone starts down this line of thinking, indulge me: Tell me how this gets us closer to finding scum? I asked the question to hear your reasons for thinking I won't be shot tonight, so as to get a better idea of how seriously you're analysing the game. I can see your point though about direct relevancy and the answer isn't vitally important to me at the moment, so I'm willing to let that question go.
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On June 26 2013 16:11 Hurricane Sponge wrote: (Quick note, Spicy definitely defended fyfy from Tofu for WAY longer than any sane person would have, much less a mafia. Based on that encounter, Spicy is supertown. I didn't manage to quote the entire exchange in the broken case post, but if you don't believe me, it's pretty easy to find. Just control-F 'Hitler' and work your way backwards.) Could you explain to me how defending a townie is a "supertown" move? I see it as a pretty good way for a scum to be seen sincerely arguing something (because they know they're right about a townread), while not actually contributing to finding scum. A quick glance over Spicy's posts indicates to me that all he's saying is "fyfy isn't the scummiest person in the thread" which is a long way from a committment to fyfy being town (which could be inconvenient for scum later). Townies can defend other townies, but scum can do it too IMO.
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On June 26 2013 16:30 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 16:25 Aquanim wrote:On June 26 2013 16:11 Hurricane Sponge wrote: (Quick note, Spicy definitely defended fyfy from Tofu for WAY longer than any sane person would have, much less a mafia. Based on that encounter, Spicy is supertown. I didn't manage to quote the entire exchange in the broken case post, but if you don't believe me, it's pretty easy to find. Just control-F 'Hitler' and work your way backwards.) Could you explain to me how defending a townie is a "supertown" move? I see it as a pretty good way for a scum to be seen sincerely arguing something (because they know they're right about a townread), while not actually contributing to finding scum. A quick glance over Spicy's posts indicates to me that all he's saying is "fyfy isn't the scummiest person in the thread" which is a long way from a committment to fyfy being town (which could be inconvenient for scum later). Townies can defend other townies, but scum can do it too IMO. Yeah, that was an ASSUMPTION alright. But what of this: as you are active, whose filter do you read at this time aqua? I'm not reading filters at the moment, I'm living the rest of my life and occasionally checking the thread to see if anything interesting pops up.
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@Spicydinosaur: What is your read on FormTofu?
I'll reply to Onegu's above case later, don't have time at the moment.
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I don't see either of these "cases" written by Onegu as real cases at all. All I see is random sniping at isolated posts in my and FirmTofu, often taken completely out of context. I don't see any actual explanation of what makes any of this stuff scum-indicative. I'll reply to a few of these to illustrate my point, but I don't see the point in replying to all of them.
Show nested quote + It is even better to vote for people who have posted some stuff but haven't been useful, since you'll probably get a reaction out of them (and others) which will help you find scum. Voting a lurker doesn't accomplish much at this point in the day.
Actually pressureing people who lurk at that point in time is one of the best things we can do because again makeing people interact is pro town allowing for lurkers at this point lets it be ok for scum to lurk also because there will be no pressure to post and give up information. So why defend lurking here? Again, if you actually read my post I am not defending lurking. I am saying that one can bring out more information in the thread by voting someone who is actually present than by voting a lurker, which is a statement of fact. If a lurker isn't actually available they can't post and so pressuring them accomplishes nothing. If somebody is in the thread, but saying nothing of value, THEN you pressure them.
Show nested quote + Meta in newbies is of limited usefulness, particularly for assessing scuminess directly - people's scumgames could change dramatically. However, if someone has demonstrated a capability for making cases/scumhunting/not being utterly useless/etc. there is no reason why that capability should disappear. I won't magically choose to start playing worse just for the sake of changing my playstyle.I am making the point that I can and will make cases to justify my vote when necessary, which I can prove by citing previous games.
You cant use meta to prove your case. You even say it is only limited in usefullness but you will use it to prove your case, sorry it doesnt work that way. And it does dissapear just look at xzavier this game compared to last game he was town both games but played much different this game and he played worse this game. Useing something that has almost no usefullness in a newbie game to prove something is scummy. If you look at my post in context I was using MY previous meta to say that I can and will make cases when the need arises. This IS a valid use of my meta. I have made cases in the past; therefore, I am capable of making cases. It's a direct, logical proof. There is NO WAY in which this is wrong or scummy.
And again, my read on Xzavier was NOT strongly dependent on his play in previous games. From my perspective, his play in this game deserved to be lynched on its own merits. I do keep having to repeat myself when I talk to you...
Show nested quote +Lastly, who says scum play has to be finely calculated? He said himself he was pressed for time - there's no reason why that shouldn't negatively impact the quality of his planning and calculation if he's scum. This actually seems like you are covering for scum teammates who aren't playing calculated. I don't think there's any reason to believe I'm covering for anyone besides wild speculation on your part. The subject of this statement was Xzavier, who flipped town. Who would I even be covering for?
Show nested quote + There's a pattern here of wanting not to lynch people based on their strong play in previous games... which has absolutely no relevance to this game. Could be a side-effect of him not having time to read this thread properly, but not wanting to commit to anything relevant to this game is characteristic of scum.
He says this is a characteristic of scum but he contridicts himself here when he talks about past meta and useing it to prove his cases, because you can be useful in a previous game and not useful in this game but that doesnt automaticly make you scum. There's a difference between my argument and the one Xzavier was using. My argument: Xzavier was useful in a previous game and isn't being useful here, in a way that indicates scumminess. This is an indication that he is scum, so we should lynch him.
Xzavier's argument: Spicy and I were useful in a previous game, you should leave us alive because I might be useful later.
However, somebody's good play in a different game doesn't make them any townier in this one by extension. Xzavier's argument made absolutely no sense, whereas mine did.
Show nested quote + Like I said, a Vigilante is unlikely to be mislynched since he can claim, and the odds of him being shot are relatively low. A Vigilante is likely to be alive in the next night phase, and being able to take a shot when there is more information to decide a target is a good thing.
Why put the claim part in here, so you want the NN and Vig to claim? Blues claiming this early is the worst possible thing for town, scum already have more information than us why give them more? Also I really dont like directing blue actions especially in a noob game that is what coaches are for, also there is a great guide on teamliquid forum about vig role and who and when to shoot, we dont need to tell them who or when to shoot, have confidance they will figure out the right thing to do. 1) I have no idea why you're bringing up the NN in relation to this 2) If you'd actually read my post and understood it I'm saying that the vigilante claim is only in the case that he is about to be lynched. What makes you think I want the vigilante to claim now? I never said anything of the sort. 3) What about this post is more "directing" blue actions than the posts I was replying to? Directing blue actions is as a general rule bad I agree, but what I said does not benefit scum to know in any way and was important for the vigilante to know. It is important to consider the specific case rather than applying blanket rules. 4) I don't have any way to know that anyone else in this game has read any guides (as I recall the guide, it doesn't talk about this particular situation anyway) or is talking to their coach.
Show nested quote + I'm not reading filters at the moment, I'm living the rest of my life and occasionally checking the thread to see if anything interesting pops up.
So you are bleimeing people for not seriously scumhunting when you arent doing it yourself? Do you seriously expect me to be playing the game and reading into everyone 24/7? Are you bloody serious? I can't even fathom why you think this is noteworthy, unusual or scummy.
I'm not sure if I kept these points in order, and I didn't reply to all of them, but frankly I'm bored of repeating myself.
In short, Onegu's case on me is largely speculation as to possible (and in some cases, unlikely) scum motivations which some of the things I've said could conceivably have. Again, I don't see any reasons why what I've done (or what FirmTofu has done) are definitely scum-motivated.
These cases read to me like Onegu is trying to pull something together to justify his predetermined scumreads, rather than determining his scumreads by the quality of the cases he can present (which is obviously an awful plan from a town perspective). I still don't know that he's scum for it (townies do the daftest things) but if he is scum I would be disgusted to lose to this play.
I honestly don't think he understands my posts and arguments at all. Whether that's because he's incapable/lazy as town, or incapable/lazy/deliberately obtuse as scum, I'm not sure at this point.
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On June 26 2013 23:14 hzflank wrote: @Aqua: Do you realize how many negative little posts you made about Onegu on day 1? If you are town then this is a good reason for someone to start a wagon on Onegu on day 2, because you were on the wrong wagon on day 1 and it looks like someone can easily get you on Onegu's wagon on day 2. Then you get outed on on the day 3 lylo and the scum get an easy win. If you are town, I would suggest you make yourself very sure of Onegu's guilt before you jump on his wagon, because I think that you are being played. Believe me, I'm not anyone's patsy. I read Xzavier's filter myself and came to my own conclusions. I'll do the same for any prospective wagon on Onegu.
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I was going to do this anyway, but I decided I just had to quote these as titles. (Honestly I doubt I'm going to die tonight, but between unknowable scum motivations, overzealous vigilantes and inscrutable Serial Killers one can never quite be sure...)
If I die tonight, town should increase their scum-read on "X" and "Y" because of "Reasons" Spicydinosaur. See the section on him below.
In case I die tonight, for the record, I believe "Z" and "B" to be very town. Chromatically and, to a lesser extent, Hurricane Sponge. Hurricane has picked up his play a lot since the lynch (which is a little odd) but both of them and I are too much on the same wavelength.
In case I die tonight, give "L" some space to play: LoneMeow. I've liked what I've seen of his play so far, but there just hasn't been enough of it. Apparently he's been on vacation, but the fact that he hasn't felt the need to say it ingame, let alone use it as an excuse, is a good sign.
@LoneMeow: You mostly weren't here day 1 and you've got some catching up to do in terms of proving your credentials as a townie. I appreciate there are some people <glares at StiMaDDict> who've done even less than you, but don't use that as an excuse. If I live through tonight, I look forward to speaking with you.
If I die tonight have a good long think about your scumread on "V": Onegu. See the section on him below.
If I die tonight, "κ" and "∅" are still basically policy lynches in my view: Alakaslam and StiMaDDict. Alakaslam's incessant martyring is really making me grind my teeth, but... fundamentally it's just another of those things I wish was scummy. He is posting some arguments and thinking about the thread a little, but is the analysis he's provided something scum could cook up? I still have no idea. StiMaDDict continues to do sweet fanny adams. We may just have to lynch him, or threaten to enough that he bloody well talks to us.
If I die tonight I never got around to thoroughly reading " " and " ": FirmTofu and hzflank. I'm feeling townish on both of these two but if I'm wrong on my townreads I think it's probably these ones.
On Spicydinosaur + Show Spoiler +The point was made early in the thread that Spicy was playing defensively. I would rather term his play as "reactive". Spicy's reply to this was as follows: On June 24 2013 12:39 Spicydinosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 12:36 FirmTofu wrote: I actually do believe Spicydinosaur is scummy, but not for the reasons that Hurricane Sponge states.
In all of his posts, he is extremely defensive. At the slightest mention of someone accusing him of anything, he flares up in his own defense. This could be due to his personality or it could be that he is extremely afraid of getting lynched. If it is indeed the latter, he is likely to be a powerful role, town or mafia. This is my preliminary assessment.
(It's funny that this real analysis is in agreement with my fluff analysis at the beginning of the game)
I do this in all my games, check out Les Mafiafor a good example. Though i don't see how that is alignment indicative as no one wants to get lynched. I thought maybe I should actually go and read Les Mafia. Oh boy..... In Les Mafia, Spicydinosaur was a Parity Cop. I would characterise his play in the following way: - He offered a lot of his own reads. I think this is partly because he was asked for his opinion a lot in Les Mafia - however, he does offer some up of his own volition.
My feeling is that in Les Mafia Spicy is giving reasons for his suspicions, whereas in this game he is giving justifications for his vote. The distinction is slight, but it's there. Another way to say the same thing is that I haven't seen Spicy try to persuade anybody else of anything this game.
- He doesn't really ask many questions at all, which is similar to his play here. I don't see any reason for him to ask more questions as scum, so this is null.
- Number of posts which I would characterise as defensive over-reactions: ZERO. That's right, absolutely none.
At one point in Les Mafia, more than a quarter of the thread was voting for him and he barely batted an eye. Perhaps this was because he always knew he could claim Parity Cop and escape the lynch. However, even in reaction to more moderate pokes (similar to what he received in this game) his response was measured, logical, and mostly in defence of himself, in contrast to this game in which his replies to pressure have largely been to claim that whoever pressuring him is scummier.
I strongly suggest that everybody read Les Mafia and get your own feeling for Spicy's play in that game. (Before anyone yells out that meta isn't a valid tool for analysis, Spicy provided this HIMSELF to justify his actions. Obviously, he thinks that it is a valid tool to analyse his play.) His argument with FirmTofu (you know the one) isn't particularly alignment-indicative to me. He is flinging a lot of shit at FirmTofu, but I can't say that he wouldn't do this as town too. This section of his filter could bear further analysis I feel. Spicy's reads so far (shortly summarised) are as follows: - Initial case on FirmTofu, which was trash. About half of it is based on the following:
He claims I'm scummy because i am defensive when accused of being scum.
On June 24 2013 12:36 FirmTofu wrote: I actually do believe Spicydinosaur is scummy, but not for the reasons that Hurricane Sponge states.
In all of his posts, he is extremely defensive. At the slightest mention of someone accusing him of anything, he flares up in his own defense. This could be due to his personality or it could be that he is extremely afraid of getting lynched. If it is indeed the latter, he is likely to be a powerful role, town or mafia. This is my preliminary assessment.
(It's funny that this real analysis is in agreement with my fluff analysis at the beginning of the game)
He acknowledges that it could just be my personality, yet when I link past games to show exactly that, he ignores it. At this point he just backs off his scum claim.
On June 24 2013 12:44 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 12:39 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 24 2013 12:36 FirmTofu wrote: I actually do believe Spicydinosaur is scummy, but not for the reasons that Hurricane Sponge states.
In all of his posts, he is extremely defensive. At the slightest mention of someone accusing him of anything, he flares up in his own defense. This could be due to his personality or it could be that he is extremely afraid of getting lynched. If it is indeed the latter, he is likely to be a powerful role, town or mafia. This is my preliminary assessment.
(It's funny that this real analysis is in agreement with my fluff analysis at the beginning of the game)
I do this in all my games, check out Les Mafiafor a good example. Though i don't see how that is alignment indicative as no one wants to get lynched. I won't bother looking at your past games, because I believe you should only be judged on your actions in this game. As I mentioned before, you could very well have a defensive personality, so I am not saying you are definitely scum or anything like that. FirmTofu ignores it AND backs off his scum claim? This is OMGUS paranoia at its best. The rest of the case isn't relevant to FirmTofu being scummy at all. I honestly don't see the point in this case besides flinging shit back at someone who's mildly suspicious of him.
- Some short, meaningless stab at LoneMeow.
- A pretty wishy-washy stance on Xzavier:
On June 25 2013 23:11 Spicydinosaur wrote: I'm not liking Xzavier as a D1 lynch but i see why others are voting him. Before chrom threw a vote down on him he did 0 scum hunting and his posts were just policy and/or fluff. With that i can clearly see a vote. However what he has done since the votes started piling on has convinced me he's town. An unproductive town before the vote, but a townie no less.
Insulting 1/2 the people in the thread is not the best way to stop a lynch on you, in fact its a good way to guarantee it. Then he throws a quick vote on aqua with a weak reason to back it up. The vote felt very reactionary like he was going for the first scummy thing he could find, not very calculated. I know some people dont like meta in newbie games, but here i feel Xzavier was just being a lot more cautious with his scum hunting after what happened last game which didnt go so well. I also feel that a scum xzavier would be more self conscious of his 0 scum hunting up to this point and would have put something down at this point.
He sees why Xzavier is being voted but doesn't like the lynch? His following arguments are bad, though I think it's just plausible that a townie would believe them... but this would be a classic scum reaction to a leading townie wagon.
- Never gets around to giving his read on me until after the deadline when it's mostly irrelevant.
- His case for Hurricane is that Hurricane has only posted fluff so far - Hurricane was AFK since the time when nobody had posted anything but fluff. A distinct lack of critical thought about this case.
I may have missed some reads but I don't think any of them were significant. In short, none of these reads make me think "town" and they all seem pretty convenient from a scummy perspective. Do I think Spicy's scum for not arguing harder for a switch away from Xzavier onto Hurricane? Not really, the thread sentiment was pretty strong against Xzavier at that point and it would take an awfully strong townie to face up to that. But it certainly isn't a towny indication, either. tl;dr I haven't found much of anything in Spicy's filter which makes me strongly think town, and unlike Onegu I'd expect there to be something if he was town. My gut says scum, but I want to look for more before drawing final conclusions.
On Onegu + Show Spoiler + As far as I can tell the case on Onegu boils down to a few main points: 1) His 'apathy' to the day one wagons - generally indicative of scum not wanting to take responsibility. 2) The less-than-persuasive nature of his cases Is this a plausible interpretation of Onegu's actions if he's scum? I think it is. However, it is not the only possible interpretation.
1) Onegu did, and always has had, a scumread on me. I suspect it's mostly a gut read, since the reasons he's raising are not very strong. He was at one point the primary force behind my wagon, I'd say; at least he was arguing his point. However, at a certain point he jumped off my vote and went to Alakaslam instead. If he's scum, he could have convincingly stayed on my wagon for a great deal longer than he did - hell, he could have rode that wagon all the way to a mislynch without looking terminally scummy. He wasn't under a great deal of pressure to move his vote at that point, except from me - I have difficulty seeing the direct scum motivation for this move.
Question: After switching vote to Alakaslam, do you think Onegu *could* have switched his vote back to me without looking absolutely awful, whatever his actual alignment? As such, was he actually as apathetic to the lynch as the final place his vote ended up might indicate? Onegu had already taken a fair bit of responsibility for his read on me.
Furthermore, do you think Onegu was capable of effectively arguing against the strong prevailing thread sentiment towards the end of the day? I don't.
2) Just because he's wrong, and hasn't made accurate cases, is no guarantee that Onegu is scum. The question you have to ask yourself is "Is Onegu honestly searching the thread and trying to find scum?". Again, for me, this is a definite maybe. I still want to see Onegu play some more to convince myself whether he is sincere in his accusations. Other people in this game are reading filters and making high-level, rational conclusions from their overal understanding of the game, and that's a town indication for me. Scum prefer to nitpick because it's harder for them to be caught out in a lie or inconsistency, and is inherently less work. They're not interested in That being said, just because someone isn't effectively hunting for scum doesn't mean they aren't trying to hunt for scum. I think the most important thing in trying to read Onegu is to assess whether he is honestly and sincerely trying to find scum.
tl;dr I think there is a reasonable explanation for Onegu's actions from both a town and a scum perspective.
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@Chromatically: What makes you think that "mostly agrees with you, but doesn't have time to fully flesh out his ideas and make his own thread impact" isn't a reasonable explanation for LoneMeow's play to date?
Also, I think Spicy would have looked a LOT worse if he'd backflipped on his Xzavier read. In fact I can't see any reason why he'd vote Xzavier if he was scum.
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@Spicydinosaur: What is your read on hzflank? Why have you given reads on everybody else but not him? (I'm aware FirmTofu doesn't appear in your post there but you gave your read on him earlier.)
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@Hurricane Sponge: I would be awfully careful about drawing conclusions from who the mafia choose to target with their NK. When all is said and done, the scum have control over the NK, and town drawing direct conclusions from who they choose to target may be entirely their intention in choosing that target. Especially in a case like this where I don't think there's a single obvious target that scum really should shoot, trying to second-guess their reasons for choosing one plausible target over another is pretty heavy WIFOM.
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On June 27 2013 10:40 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 10:23 Aquanim wrote: @Chromatically: What makes you think that "mostly agrees with you, but doesn't have time to fully flesh out his ideas and make his own thread impact" isn't a reasonable explanation for LoneMeow's play to date?
Also, I think Spicy would have looked a LOT worse if he'd backflipped on his Xzavier read. In fact I can't see any reason why he'd vote Xzavier if he was scum. In theory, there's a somewhat plausible town explanation for every scum action. That doesn't mean that it's likely. I think that Meow has been trying to stay under the radar too much to by town (by completely sheeping town sentiment and leaving his lynch options open). I disagree with most of your reasoning on Spicy. First of all, I'm not looking at his meta. According to Xzav's meta, he was scum. I could make an argument that you're scum based on meta, because you're not as much of a town leader that you were in XXXIII. You could make a meta argument that I'm scum because I haven't used associations and I opened differently. Meta is not useful in newbie games. His stance on Xzav wasn't wishy-washy at all, it was that Xzav was town. He believed this enough to argue it against me, and logically stand his ground. Spicy might have looked worse if he had switched to Xzav, but if you read his reasoning, there's no reason to think that it's fake because it looks very genuine. I'm surprised that you see nothing townie in his filter. Look at the giant fight he had with Tofu, look at how he interacts with me about my cases and his cases. I think he's town. I have read it and I say again there is nothing about it I can't believe from a scum Spicy.
Look at the giant fight he had with Tofu, and think to yourself: what would Spicy have done differently if he was scum? That argument was mostly just those two flinging mud at one another, with not a whole lot of rational thought. I don't see any reason to believe he's town over that - I think he played that exactly as scum Spicy would.
Again, look at his discussion with you and think to yourself: what would Spicy have done differently if he was scum? Backing off his Xzavier read would have been SUICIDE considering how defiantly he'd defended it earlier. His argument to you that Xzavier was town basically consisted of "I said he was town before for those shitty reasons and I stand by them" and for some reason you're buying this. I don't see how or why you think defending a townie with bad reasons, and resisting all arguments to the contrary with "You're wrong" without any further justification is a town indication. At best it's null.
You think he's genuine apparently - I don't.
If you feel the need to ignore meta, then let me rephrase it: If player Y says that player X is one of his more likely speculative scumreads, very early in the game, and player X responds by throwing an ill-thought-out case at player Y mostly based on "he said I'm scum so he's scum" and other assorted rubbish without actually defending his own play, is that a scummy or towny thing to do? I think it's pretty obviously more likely from scum, regardless of Spicy's meta.
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On June 27 2013 10:55 Hurricane Sponge wrote: And alakaslam, if I die, listen hard to Chrom. He won't screw with you. Seconded. Hell, I wouldn't say it only to Alakaslam.
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well, shit. That makes his reads 100% confirmed sincere. Guess I'll go back and read Spicy again and see if I can see what he was on about.
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On June 27 2013 11:02 FirmTofu wrote: Okay we probably have a 4 mafia team, am I correct? No, there's almost certainly three.
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On June 27 2013 11:06 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Spicy is town. This is a winnable game. It's super bad luck that our best role happened to be our most skilled player (easily drawing the mafia shot), but the game is close to being figured out. I guess I'll start the wagon, if no one objects.
##Vote: Onegu As far as I can tell, your entire town read on Spicy is based on Chromatically being the shot rather than you. As you said, he was in general the best shot. I don't see how this argument makes sense at all.
hz and onegu are my worst reads. You're on your own for them until I can collect my thoughts better. I haven't breadcrumbed some secret message about them, so if I'm about to go down, you all have to sort out that mess on your own.
I'm going to need an actual case from you on Onegu, including a reply to my comments about him here before I take your vote seriously. For that matter, I'd like to see your opinion on my comments on Spicy, too.
If we start a "wagon of justice" on Onegu, ride it all day, and he flips town, we're pretty screwed. I'd like to at least discuss other options.
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For the moment:
##Vote: StiMaDDict
This is no more nor less than a pressure vote, which is something I don't normally do, but we badly, badly need StiMaDDict to get in here and play the game seriously. If nothing else, I refuse to let him win by playing like this if he's scum.
I will continue to assess Onegu and Spicy (as well as other vague reads).
Disturbing thought: If we mislynch and StiMaDDict (or any other townie) is modkilled we lose the game. Immediately. Don't edit any posts guys
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On June 27 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 11:12 Aquanim wrote:On June 27 2013 11:06 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Spicy is town. This is a winnable game. It's super bad luck that our best role happened to be our most skilled player (easily drawing the mafia shot), but the game is close to being figured out. I guess I'll start the wagon, if no one objects.
##Vote: Onegu As far as I can tell, your entire town read on Spicy is based on Chromatically being the shot rather than you. As you said, he was in general the best shot. I don't see how this argument makes sense at all. hz and onegu are my worst reads. You're on your own for them until I can collect my thoughts better. I haven't breadcrumbed some secret message about them, so if I'm about to go down, you all have to sort out that mess on your own.
I'm going to need an actual case from you on Onegu, including a reply to my comments about him here before I take your vote seriously. For that matter, I'd like to see your opinion on my comments on Spicy, too. If we start a "wagon of justice" on Onegu, ride it all day, and he flips town, we're pretty screwed. I'd like to at least discuss other options. Aqua, Chromatically and I have made the case for Onegu's lynch extremely clear. Please read our respective filters for more information. I wouldn't expect Hurricane to be the one to justify the wagon to you. You can just see that confirmed town flip Parity Cop Chromatically wanted him dead. Being confirmed town makes him sincere, not right. Every townie has believed cases from the bottom of their heart and been wrong. Hell, Chromatic has done it once this game already. I'm not going to lynch Onegu just on his say-so.
As I've said, I can easily see Onegu as an newby and ineffective town player, as I suggested earlier. It's on you, Hurricane, and anyone else who votes Onegu to convince me that I'm wrong; I've done my work on Onegu and come to my own conclusions, it's not my job to convince myself that you're right.
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EBWOP: I have read your cases made during the night already. My impression was that they give a pretty convincing narrative as to how Onegu could be scum, but they don't show that he can't be town.
Show me things Onegu has done that there is no reasonable town explanation for and I'll take them into consideration.
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