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On June 13 2013 09:17 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 23:05 Oatsmaster wrote: KILL GK.
KILL IT WITH FIRE.
He never talks about me, shiao pi/vayne/axle.
I wanna kill GK, and then BH if he continues being a useless sack of shit. I didn't have time to read the game until last night, and by the time I was done and posted, like no one was around in thread... The reason I haven't really talked to you this game is you haven't provided any real case points for why I'm scum, or anyone else for that matter... You seem content to capslock and spam the word kill 2-3 times, which is entirely unhelpful and unproductive. If you truly believe I'm scum, make some casepoints so I have something to actually discuss with you. I am here the next few hours, and it looks like people are actually in thread right now, so if you or anyone else have something to discuss I'm here.
Have you looked at what happened with the D1 voting and what do you make of it?
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On June 12 2013 14:37 goodkarma wrote: I finally read through everything. Here are my current thoughts.:
[.....delteia... ]
Regarding BH:
You seem to have a few people you'd like to have shot. But I'm having some trouble understanding your thought process... I see lots of shitslinging and dinner-eating, but very limited analysis...
I'd say your play here does resemble The Game in that you seem to be just going completely aggro on players with unproductive tunnels. I believe you even referenced this once or twice, like how you'd rather tunnel Hapa as scum or something. But I remember how you tunneled ThePeashooter in that game, and he was hardly a town leader or anything... Scum BH loves to shit up threads, and that's exactly what I see here.
I'm leaning scum on you. You proved to me last game you can play like complete shit as town, but the way you're playing this game is similar enough to your The Game scumgame I believe there's a decent chance you'll flip red.
Regarding Syl:
As far as more lurkerish players, there's Syl who's been sheepish this game to the exclusion of much of any analysis. He's flown completely under the radar, and if he shamelessly continues to do so I believe he'd be a decent vigishot.
Can you explain how these things show the scum motivation of the person involved.
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On June 13 2013 09:35 GravityMan wrote:Sorry Corazon Axle, I answered you here. Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 08:10 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 08:02 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote: [quote] As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset.
If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really. Snide = Sorry. Ok. it will take a little bit for me to get the stuff. but without links to where or what. So that post gets the thread to see Bh has ego etc. (he said to me back then he is talented guy...) How does that interact with him beign scummy or town. Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM. Specifically, the section where he backs down from Hapa yet is belligerent towards Oats got me thinking about how in general he interacts with people. I believe I spoke about it last night---as scum he tends not to give people he thinks are beneath him the time of day. He does this as town as well, but when he's serious about hunting scum he will eventually interact with everyone in the thread in some form of a positive way. Essentially I was trying to display this without the ability to dive into BH's meta and prove this---again, Les Mafia is a good example--- and show that he can't act that way towards Hapa as Hapa is a very skilled town player and will not put up with his bullshit, yet will shit up the thread towards anyone else he can when he can get away with it. Without even using meta I can tell you that the way BH has been acting in this way towards people is not town-aligned in the slightest; the meta only makes it stronger when you can see that's how he acts in various games. I admit it's not exactly the clearest line of thought but I know it's true, I've played with BH a ton recently and feel that I've learned to read him well (despite me lying about it as GM). It doesn't mean much but I've said it before, if I was town in Les there is no way I would have voted to lynch him when he acted the way he did at the end of the game. He has not acted even a fraction as towny this game as he did in that one. In fact, I have been nothing but forthcoming considering everything asked of me all game. Has BH been as considerate? I REALLY don't understand what is so hard for all of you to see here. Oh and Axle, by definiton, you saying 'mislynched' means you think BH is town. I want to know why you think he is town. It has nothing to do with what you want from me.
I think I prefer to do what you wanted me to do a little while ago.
On June 13 2013 08:13 GravityMan wrote:
Axle can you answer my question? You've been doing too much analysis and questioning and not offering enough in terms of reads and stances taken. Who is scum and why?
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On June 13 2013 09:50 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 09:45 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 09:35 GravityMan wrote:Sorry Corazon Axle, I answered you here. On June 13 2013 08:10 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 08:02 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote: [quote] Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really. Snide = Sorry. Ok. it will take a little bit for me to get the stuff. but without links to where or what. So that post gets the thread to see Bh has ego etc. (he said to me back then he is talented guy...) How does that interact with him beign scummy or town. Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM. Specifically, the section where he backs down from Hapa yet is belligerent towards Oats got me thinking about how in general he interacts with people. I believe I spoke about it last night---as scum he tends not to give people he thinks are beneath him the time of day. He does this as town as well, but when he's serious about hunting scum he will eventually interact with everyone in the thread in some form of a positive way. Essentially I was trying to display this without the ability to dive into BH's meta and prove this---again, Les Mafia is a good example--- and show that he can't act that way towards Hapa as Hapa is a very skilled town player and will not put up with his bullshit, yet will shit up the thread towards anyone else he can when he can get away with it. Without even using meta I can tell you that the way BH has been acting in this way towards people is not town-aligned in the slightest; the meta only makes it stronger when you can see that's how he acts in various games. I admit it's not exactly the clearest line of thought but I know it's true, I've played with BH a ton recently and feel that I've learned to read him well (despite me lying about it as GM). It doesn't mean much but I've said it before, if I was town in Les there is no way I would have voted to lynch him when he acted the way he did at the end of the game. He has not acted even a fraction as towny this game as he did in that one. In fact, I have been nothing but forthcoming considering everything asked of me all game. Has BH been as considerate? I REALLY don't understand what is so hard for all of you to see here. Oh and Axle, by definiton, you saying 'mislynched' means you think BH is town. I want to know why you think he is town. It has nothing to do with what you want from me. I think I prefer to do what you wanted me to do a little while ago. On June 13 2013 08:13 GravityMan wrote:
Axle can you answer my question? You've been doing too much analysis and questioning and not offering enough in terms of reads and stances taken. Who is scum and why?
I'm fine with either for now, but I will not be letting this go. I have seen nothing remotely towny about BH's play right now and that fact that you see as such or are making a preflip association based on the fact that you think I'm scum is not good.
My views are not preflip association based. They are also not 100%, but I would need to either see more or understand the cases against him better before i'd lynch today. yeah he went all "dinner" "dinner" and hapa fake shot him... and he and oats are being he and oats. What I dont yet see is the scum agenda and intention.
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On June 13 2013 10:01 Oatsmaster wrote: So who is your other scumread GK?
oats are you here for little bit there is something i want to clear up. (BTW no this isnt going to be like our first game, where i wanted chat)
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On June 13 2013 10:29 Oatsmaster wrote: yes yes im here.
and no GK, SHOW ME where his play is similar.
This post of yours. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18863859 "I love syls filter. LOOOVE."
"Why? Cause he says a lotta sensible things."
"Just read his filter and form a conclusion, I dont like explaining town reads. "
This was sarcasm? or real? sorry cant tell.
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On June 13 2013 10:32 Oatsmaster wrote: at that point, it was real.
Sorry reads like sarcasm in my head. just be a sec i think I know what chnaged your mind then.
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@Oats
Was it this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18865624
On June 12 2013 01:11 Oatsmaster wrote: Why syl. Whyyyy.
Whos scum?
in reply to this + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2013 00:38 Sylencia wrote: Alright, clarification statement here: Here is what I meant about erratic behaviour: - BH starts out the game lurker style but then comes out guns blazing against Oats in a flamefest war which I frankly don't understand the point of. Neither of them really got their point to each other. - Hapa attacks Vayne then goes 'nah all cool' and moves on like nothing happened. Vayne is pretty much confirmed town at this point, but at the time when it happened I had no idea what to make of it. - Stutter's lurkiness is similar to LXI, hard to make out anything from it - this is probably the most normal thing about this town during D1. - Vayne goes scum style posting into blue claim, weirdest play to date (I missed the hints, but apparently everyone did) - Axle is actually making sense for once, which is the weirdest thing unless I haven't played with him long enough for him to be more normal like this? - I don't think I've played a game with Hapa before, but he's probably the most level headed player in this group from what I've seen.
None of this actually really helps in the end with scumhunting, but it just threw me off guard to see these changes. For tonight, about the potential shot, probably best not to use it if you're not sure Hapa. If things go wrong and we're looking at an SK or something in the mix, town numbers could be at an all time low in just 1 day/night cycle. Which is pretty why why why
didnt Syl quote My post that specifically asked Syl for that information....
+ Show Spoiler +On June 11 2013 15:21 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 09:25 Sylencia wrote:Ok... day 1 claim is unfortunate ##unvote is the obvious first move GravityMan: On June 11 2013 01:14 GravityMan wrote: Sylencia. Hello. If you are not currently otherwise occupied, I have some queries for you that I feel would help me gain a better understand of you. If you would answer them I would be greatly pleased. Do you have any reads on scum other than this VayneAuthority? What do you make of the altercation between the Oatsmaster and this Blazinghand? You mention that you are often lynched early in other games. Why is this? 1) No, not really, everyone is acting really erratically this game and it's making things kind of difficult to work out. 2) That argument was actually rather annoying - flamefests just spam up the thread uselessly and demoralises the town side most of the time. I don't even feel like there was anything productive that came from it... 3) Lurkerish, lynchbait, scum jump on my weak cases etc. etc. Unless Jampi shows up soon (he said he would be here around now right?), I'm going to put a vote on him going mostly on Hapa's reasoning. ##vote Jampi Syl said: 1) No, not really, everyone is acting really erratically this game and it's making things kind of difficult to work out. please clarify the meaning of the word erratically, in what sense are what people behaving erratically. id suggest choosing one or more, person or period in the thread, as an example. Was it only the BH oats thing id prefer another example as you said everyone. They dont have to be scum indicative. The problem is normally I read your posts and they make sense to me, that bit does not.
My question was ways back so it would be real easy to miss.
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On June 13 2013 10:33 AxleGreaser wrote:Sorry reads like sarcasm in my head. just be a sec i think I know what chnaged your mind then.
Actually i dont know if your mind changed or not ,the above reads like that (sheesh this getting silly)
Anyway if your read is based on your "why? why? Why Syl?" post then you may need to re-examine it yet again
Kind of an FYI: thing as I think you missed something.
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On June 13 2013 10:35 Oatsmaster wrote: KK.
What do you think of GK?
earlier you asked
Ok. GK lives in the pool of lynchbait targets, so I am not real keen to fan sentiment and make things easy. (people should have to make up their own minds) I was interested to see the reasons given on the question I asked or what else GK chooses to do instead as well. The decisions made will be what tells.
I thought there was little more to what happened on D1 regarding the voting than GK has found.
You don't like the first post, I don't know for sure why, (maybe I do) but i think its something i don't know about replacements and how they initially post, I imagine that has something to with being shy to talk about everyone. I dont know how hard the various wines are to drink.
I don't like posts that start: "Catching up with the thread now."
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@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice.
Here is mine
##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details.
The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative.
What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read.
GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 read this post and decide if you think that was provocative.
GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432 "For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic."
Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking?
WHy was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124 "There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations."
prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it?
Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed.
Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1
+ Show Spoiler [some more of the details] +
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This post is also interesting
On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such.
That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are suppsoed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink
I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink
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On June 13 2013 23:41 Sylencia wrote: In any case, things look grim with BH being the one up for vote, I'm moving mine to gk for now
Syl, would you care to do two things.
more clearly indicate your votes in this thread.
attach some reasons at the point when you do so that later people can find out why you did things.
Do you wish to seek say some clarification from me about the information in the post which is presume the reason you voted for me earlier?
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EBWOP
On June 13 2013 23:45 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 23:41 Sylencia wrote: In any case, things look grim with BH being the one up for vote, I'm moving mine to gk for now Syl, would you care to do two things. more clearly indicate your votes in this thread. attach some reasons at the point when you do so that later people can find out why you did things. Do you wish to seek say some clarification from me about the information in the post which is I presume the reason you voted for me earlier?
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On June 14 2013 00:44 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 22:18 AxleGreaser wrote:@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice. Here is mine ##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details. The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative. What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read. GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699read this post and decide if you think that was provocative. GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432"For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic." Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking? Why was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124"There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations." prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it? Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed. Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1 + Show Spoiler [some more of the details] + Axle, my problem here is you are also misrepresenting everything I do.The reason I was trying to 'lead' BH to talk about what I wanted him to is the artificial restraints I put on myself. Without the ability to talk about his meta I was forced to get him to talk about how he might act in certain situations so I could then bring it up as an example. I already had in my mind the idea that he was scum here but I wanted to try and flesh out more evidence. Yes it's 'leading the witness,' but it's for a good cause: getting my scumread lynched. You can call that a scum agenda if you want, but it's not. Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 23:03 AxleGreaser wrote:This post is also interesting On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such. That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are supposed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink As far as not responding to you immediately, I don't really see how that's scum indicative either. This is confiramtion bias and you are simply believing what fits your read of me. I simply said it because it was the truth, and upon looking back through the thread I realized I missed some queries you had of me. Nothing more. Vote me if you must Axle, but I would recommend you at least look into who else in this game is scum for once, because if I eventually flip town you are going to be completely lost, especially if you think BH is town.
While the delay was concerning especially when repeated
You appeared to miss the point so I adjusted the bolding in the quote. Gravman Said: "Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such." My problem was that you referred to it as 'supposed' to the use of that word seems wrong for town player acting alone, but makes sense if it is as a result of discussion elsewhere such as in the scum QT.
Also This is your case (I believe) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18867420
What kind of answers could have been given to these questions that would supported your case. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699
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On June 14 2013 02:16 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 00:44 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 22:18 AxleGreaser wrote:@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice. Here is mine ##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details. The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative. What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read. GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699read this post and decide if you think that was provocative. GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432"For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic." Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking? Why was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124"There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations." prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it? Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed. Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1 + Show Spoiler [some more of the details] + Axle, my problem here is you are also misrepresenting everything I do.The reason I was trying to 'lead' BH to talk about what I wanted him to is the artificial restraints I put on myself. Without the ability to talk about his meta I was forced to get him to talk about how he might act in certain situations so I could then bring it up as an example. I already had in my mind the idea that he was scum here but I wanted to try and flesh out more evidence. Yes it's 'leading the witness,' but it's for a good cause: getting my scumread lynched. You can call that a scum agenda if you want, but it's not. On June 13 2013 23:03 AxleGreaser wrote:This post is also interesting On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such. That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are supposed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink As far as not responding to you immediately, I don't really see how that's scum indicative either. This is confiramtion bias and you are simply believing what fits your read of me. I simply said it because it was the truth, and upon looking back through the thread I realized I missed some queries you had of me. Nothing more. Vote me if you must Axle, but I would recommend you at least look into who else in this game is scum for once, because if I eventually flip town you are going to be completely lost, especially if you think BH is town. While the delay was concerning especially when repeated You appeared to miss the point so I adjusted the bolding in the quote. Gravman Said: "Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such." My problem was that you referred to it as 'supposed' to the use of that word seems wrong for town player acting alone, but makes sense if it is as a result of discussion elsewhere such as in the scum QT. Also This is your case (I believe) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18867420What kind of answers could have been given to these questions that would supported your case. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 Oh I see, so you think I scumslipped, huh? Ok, good luck with that. Haha you picked a point that even BH wouldn't support. As for the 'fishing for answers,' honestly....I guess I don't have a sufficient way to prove this to you but you'll see in postgame or after I flip---you're looking way too deeply into this as though I had some mega overarching agenda here. With my questioning about his stance towards Vayne, had I been able to use meta I would shove it in his face that both Vayne AND I had beaten him in Les Mafia. I knew personally the only reason he thought at that point that Vayne was a good player was because of Les Mafia, which is a terrible reason. Scum play does not equal town play, and a SINGLE game of good play is not a good example to overall good play. I was trying to make it evident to the thread that BH's initial reasoning to calling VA a good mayoral choice was inherently flawed and his trumped up ego, thinking "well, he beat me, the best player of all time last game, so he MUST be good" is making the decisions for him. As I've pointed out, when dealing with players supposedly better than him he will suppress the egotistical nature but when dealing with anyone else it comes out to play. He uses it as it suits him. Axle I'm willing to continue to follow your endless questions until the cows come home, but is it ever going to stop? Are you ever going to contribute to the thread in any other way? It honestly worries me because I know I'm town and I'm pretty sure you are, and this is wasting a shot ton of time that could be put to more productive use. What can I do to get you to at least look elsewhere even if you keep your vote on me?
Find one of your scum buddies and lynch him?
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On June 14 2013 02:16 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 00:44 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 22:18 AxleGreaser wrote:@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice. Here is mine ##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details. The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative. What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read. GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699read this post and decide if you think that was provocative. GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432"For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic." Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking? Why was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124"There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations." prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it? Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed. Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1 + Show Spoiler [some more of the details] + Axle, my problem here is you are also misrepresenting everything I do.The reason I was trying to 'lead' BH to talk about what I wanted him to is the artificial restraints I put on myself. Without the ability to talk about his meta I was forced to get him to talk about how he might act in certain situations so I could then bring it up as an example. I already had in my mind the idea that he was scum here but I wanted to try and flesh out more evidence. Yes it's 'leading the witness,' but it's for a good cause: getting my scumread lynched. You can call that a scum agenda if you want, but it's not. On June 13 2013 23:03 AxleGreaser wrote:This post is also interesting On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such. That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are supposed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink As far as not responding to you immediately, I don't really see how that's scum indicative either. This is confiramtion bias and you are simply believing what fits your read of me. I simply said it because it was the truth, and upon looking back through the thread I realized I missed some queries you had of me. Nothing more. Vote me if you must Axle, but I would recommend you at least look into who else in this game is scum for once, because if I eventually flip town you are going to be completely lost, especially if you think BH is town. While the delay was concerning especially when repeated You appeared to miss the point so I adjusted the bolding in the quote. Gravman Said: "Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such." My problem was that you referred to it as 'supposed' to the use of that word seems wrong for town player acting alone, but makes sense if it is as a result of discussion elsewhere such as in the scum QT. Also This is your case (I believe) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18867420What kind of answers could have been given to these questions that would supported your case. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 Oh I see, so you think I scumslipped, huh? Ok, good luck with that. Haha you picked a point that even BH wouldn't support. As for the 'fishing for answers,' honestly....I guess I don't have a sufficient way to prove this to you but you'll see in postgame or after I flip---you're looking way too deeply into this as though I had some mega overarching agenda here. With my questioning about his stance towards Vayne, had I been able to use meta I would shove it in his face that both Vayne AND I had beaten him in Les Mafia. I knew personally the only reason he thought at that point that Vayne was a good player was because of Les Mafia, which is a terrible reason. Scum play does not equal town play, and a SINGLE game of good play is not a good example to overall good play. I was trying to make it evident to the thread that BH's initial reasoning to calling VA a good mayoral choice was inherently flawed and his trumped up ego, thinking "well, he beat me, the best player of all time last game, so he MUST be good" is making the decisions for him. As I've pointed out, when dealing with players supposedly better than him he will suppress the egotistical nature but when dealing with anyone else it comes out to play. He uses it as it suits him. Axle I'm willing to continue to follow your endless questions until the cows come home, but is it ever going to stop? Are you ever going to contribute to the thread in any other way? It honestly worries me because I know I'm town and I'm pretty sure you are, and this is wasting a shot ton of time that could be put to more productive use. What can I do to get you to at least look elsewhere even if you keep your vote on me?
and even if it was true how did that make him scum?
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@Gravman You do see i asked you to explain your case To me, and how your point makes BH scum.
@BH
On June 14 2013 02:55 Blazinghand wrote: Hello friends. I'm back from dinner and ready to party. I suppose a VA lynch isn't possible today because he'll pardon himself; that's okay, we can still lynch GM.
##unvote ##vote GM
way back http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 GM finished post saying
GM "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you(BH) actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure."
have you any idea what he was thinking?
how is "discarding ego" even related to "lying"?
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Given that it is 4:30am here, I am going to have some brekky brb.
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@Gravman Please note I have read all of BHs end of day posts . BH flipped green is good player, so they have weight with me. I am starting my thoughts again as best I can.
Earlier you made the post below. What I want you to do is think back and explain why you posted this. What was your purpose and intent. How did it benefit town, who needed at that time to know you thought that?
+ Show Spoiler [your post] +On June 14 2013 00:38 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 20:57 Sylencia wrote:On June 13 2013 09:07 goodkarma wrote:Catching up with the thread now. The first thing I'd like to address is this Syl post: On June 12 2013 22:35 Sylencia wrote:On June 12 2013 16:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 12 2013 16:15 Sylencia wrote: @GK: Why are you suggesting to waste a dayvig shot on me when the only reason you have is that I've been lurkier than others? You literally say before your 'analysis' on me that you think BH is scum and yet somehow I'm a more decent target for shooting? Ok.. I said you were flying under the radar, and that when you are here you seem to be content to agree with a stance here and there and not really add anything. It's not about your "lurkiness," but what you aren't doing when you are here. I'm assuming from what Vayne has said he plans to use his vig shot today. Therefore, we need to determine two scum candidates for this cycle. None of this really is that difficult to understand. While you're here, would you mind providing an opinion on anything? Or more specifically, perhaps elaborate on your top scumread? If Vayne wants to use it as a shot, why aren't we lynching a top suspect first, and shooting during the night? Unless there's some sort of claim that can only be checked by death, I don't see a reason why it should be rushed so. (I'm not reading the power wrong, right?) My top read at the time you posted was ShiaoPi, as I said I agreed with a lot of the points made by Stutters. I made that clear end of last night. I haven't fully digested ShiaoPi's response yet, but if I'm wrong on that account, my previous statement feels good: On June 12 2013 01:24 Sylencia wrote: @Oats: If GK doesn't have anything in the next 24 hours, I'd be willing to put money on a lurker scum team - something like him + stutters (maybe +1 if there's a third). The only one that sticks out is Blazinghand for causing chaos for no reason but idk if that's his playstyle - please fill me in there. Reasoning is everything has run too smoothly and there haven't felt like there have been any sort of misdirections so far. We had a blue claim on day 1, so having some sort of mayor takeover would be a pretty good idea in Day 1 for scum to take, as they can reliably target Vayne with no consequence. If he dies, he dies. If he doesn't, everyone just says someone protected him, and no one suspects the mayor. None of this happened, so unless Hapa is scum, everyone active seems town. Any problem with my reasoning? For catching up, only having an analysis of 4 players (2 of which seem like afterthoughts), and a weak scumread based a lot on meta is pretty bad. I've heard from BH enough that you have slow starts, but idk define slow start, how long is it going to take to get the ball rolling, and out of all the players how is it that you've got thoughts on 2 lurky players over someone with a lot more points to consider such as Grav/WoS and Oats? About GravityMan - I am also missing what is obvious about him that makes him scum according to BH, but the only point i"ll take from it is that he is the only one who disrupted Hapa's mayoral campaign with a sort of smear campaign against him. You can make reasons for why he did it if he's scum (potentially take power, and make hapa a suspect), but since that failed, would scum have chosen Hapa as the target of the NK over Vayne to clearly show that? Food for thought, seeing as that was the only real 'major' event that happened regarding mayoral campaigns. First of all, the entire point of mentioning a good vigishot for Vayne is we should be treating this cycle like a doublelynch, as Hapa originally suggested. Even if Vayne opts to wait until the night to shoot, by discussing this now we have that much more information to go on in later cycles. For that reason, everyone should be doing this. So you can't be bothered to review the latest posting of your top scumread, and you fall back on proposing a lurker scumteam if your top read convinces you he's town??? Explain to me how that isn't scum-motivated behavior? Further, I provided a read on Grav in the post you're referencing, so it's clear you aren't reading the thread very closely. This is the kind of disinterest I'd expect from scum. I still believe you'd be a good vigi shot. The fact I can actually rely on something which I believed to have been true from the night before shows the actual lack of contribution that you had brought to the table to this point. If I say you're scummy during N1, and you do nothing to change that view in D2, you're saying it's scum oriented for me to say I still think you're scum? Also yes, turns out I ended up thinking you did an analysis on GK which is yourself (it made perfect sense at the time somehow -_-). In any case: - Axle: How has this guy been able to fly under the radar this entire game? As far as I've read there's been very little suspicious cast on him, he's been questioned about his reads in which he's tip toed around the problem: On June 13 2013 08:23 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:59 GravityMan wrote: Axle, who do YOU think is scum? We haven't had very many reads from you this game at all, just analysis and questions. There is the obvious list, of people who have not contributed much. There is the obvious list of turning Hapas list upside down and saying that. One thing i dont want to do is get all in a low post count townies face, and shut them down. So I wont be doing that. The least clear intention I have is you. I see what "looks" like a tendency to Lynch BH for being BH. I see posts that could well inflame him and make his ego come to the fore as town or scum. This could have been their intention, or not. It alludes to him suspecting GM (pretty much confirmed to be saying he suspects GM next post), but he doesn't push it at all. He said he doesn't want to shut a lurker down, but GM is far from a lurker, so why wouldn't he push a case there? If there's someone in this game who is a prime example of being neutral on pretty much everything, it's Axle. BH has been doing a lot of talking without a lot of pushing, but I'm pretty sure that Axle is a better option over BH. After a slow first half of Day 1, I think if BH was scum he'd easily adapt into a less active role in the game. He brings up points I don't think anyone else would be doing otherwise (possible VA fakeclaim etc.) and just by doing that I feel it's enough to justify keeping him around for longer. Without BH this town will be a dead town, with little to no deviation in thoughts. GK I'm still willing to put my vote on him, idk how slow a start can be, but even his vote on BH didn't have any substance to it. This is terrible honestly. Axle seems like the towniest town that ever towned, and this case misrepresents him entirely. I'm not sure why people are letting this go. He votes him based on the fact that Axle has been flying under the radar, and that he supposedly calls me a lurker? (hint: he's not referring to me) That's his entire reasoning. The whole thing in that one post. Why is Sylencia getting away with that exactly? I mean I'm not a fan of Axle right now because he's tunneled me for about half the game but at least he's doing it in a reasonable way' I don't see scum pushing a read like he has with the analysis that he's done, and I've played with scum Axle before. Now I have to get to Axle's case on me....sigh. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18880452 Link for Thread Context
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