gonzaw, thoughts on shelvocke?
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
gonzaw, thoughts on shelvocke? | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 02:31 Vivax wrote: Not answering for decon. Your play has been delightfully less disruptive this game compared to the last few I've played with you as either alignment. I both want to keep it that way AND want to avoid as much as possible the recently-inevitable point at which you become a scumread for half the thread but never quite enough to lynch you and then discussion about lynching you clogs up real discussion every day. I'd rather put that off, especially when we have a number of other candidates today.Austin I'm not missing the point at all. Decon is a good boy, he can answer for himself thanks. Posts like this from you On April 08 2013 01:28 Vivax wrote: Deconduo I have a question. Since you have S & B as scumread, why did you look so skeptical towards my question? Would expect you to pop in and say: "Yeah I think he's totes scum too, vote him cause bsbsbsb, go read my case and shit, you're on the right track mate". Instead you didn't seem to happy about someone actually liking your own scumread, and even would have FOUND IT SCUMMY if I had been trying to start a bandwagon on him. What gives? show that you DID miss the point, at least what I pick up as the point of decon's post. It doesn't matter that he agrees with you on snb, and you know full well that sometimes, someone agreeing with you on a read but in a way you don't like may indicate that they are scum and your read is town and scum sees a good opportunity to move in on building a scumread/causing a mislynch. So the fact you both have snb as scummy shouldn't mean you don't get questioned at all. At least to some extent, you missed that bit, based on how I read your posts. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 03:41 gonzaw wrote: Was waiting on your response, wanted to see if you picked up on something.I'm null on Shevlocke. I had found some stuff I found a little suspicious of him at first (like his first post I believe), and I guess some stuff others say makes sense about him (like how he pushed VE). But nothing convinces me for a D1 lynch. He hasn't been around for much either, which is not good for him, but it isn't good for me to get a better read on him either. Now I'd like you to return the favor, which is....you know....commenting on the gigantic case I made. I disagree with your ultimate setup discussion conclusion.
We are both wordy, but I don't see the complaints as much and I don't see the need for them to warrant much comment. At the END of your complaint section, I do like you mentioning "cramming all sorts of things into a single post." I have not known scum to do that, tbh, but I can't really fight your conclusion there because I don't have a ledger of all the crammed-together posts and whether they came from scum to town. I know that, when I'm town, I often try to avoid commenting on some things, try to push a few small lines of thought and not get tripped up, but that may be because of my inexperience and it might not be a normal scum thought process. Whatever. Still got nothing pointing me to scumtanis from your case. The geript case is poopy as I look back over it. It's either just not something I agree with or slightly scummy, but it's friggin pregame and early. You've also noted that you were watching artanis before he made this post. That makes it seem like you may be playing up the geript case as an indicator of scumtanis, because you were already scummy on artanis, and I dislike that. Just...I agree that artanis's geript case is not strong like ox, but I'm still not over to scummy on him (this is running commentary on just your case, if I'm taking each point and seeing how it sways me). The backing off point is the first thing that I can see in a scummy light. The weaker the case, the easier to back off, but yeah, he's put a lot of effort into this and he backs off with the not liking your posts comment. I've done that myself as town, when I start to realize a scumread is feeling more town, you've looked at these posts as scummy for a while and it's hard to undo that even once you find someone to be townie, but I can also see the scum point of view there. I will agree that it's a half-assed way to back off. ***EVERYONE IGNORING ARTANIS*** This is why I asked you about Shelvocke. You know who's been ignored? Shelvocke. You know who Meapak ALSO commented on, then I commented on and voted, but has had basically NO discussion today about him? Shelvocke. I wanted to see if you picked up on that, because I read your point here and immediately went "Agree that this can indicate scum" and then "Oh right, this also applies to Shelvocke." Overall, I like the ignoring point and think it CAN point towards scum. The backing off point is fine, and I think it CAN point to scum. Some of the points I'm meh on, and the RNG setup discussion in the beginning is something I find townie. If I just filter Artanis away from your specific points, I see a couple things: His aggression is all confined to like...an hour and a half of activity following his geript case/vote/post. He's gone for 11 hours or whatever, comes back, first thing he does is apparently re-read Geript, what has happened in relation to Geript in the meantime, and respond that he is reconsidering. I actually REALLY like that response. If Artanis is scum I don't see reason for the return to thread to be anything other than pushing a little more, creating a little more chaos, something, rather than just dropping your read. We're not even in the voting phase yet, there's no REAL reason to be changing your reads around if mafia, you're still just sort of dicking around, chatting in scum QT, whatever, and reading through your scumread's response to your stuff, changing your mind, and having that be the FIRST thing you do on return to the thread feels town to me. Thoughts on that? There is my response. I don't want to lynch Artanis. I DO want to chat a little more about Shelvocke, especially with regard to the lack of commentary/votes/whatnot on him and your finding that scummy about Artanis. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 04:37 strongandbig wrote: It's insufficient but so are a number of the votes this game. The thing that I like least about the vote post is that heokay hey austin so i still think that post where shelvocke votes for VE is like super insufficient, apparently his case was "VE is usually rash with KP but he's telling people to be rash with KP therefore he must be scum"? he hasn't said much about much else except for a town read on ryan that doesn't make much sense but that's fine hmmmmm, how about this as a point: he's been around a decent amount and posted a decent amount, but his posting has been very narrowly focused and he hasn't said anything about anything except for his current "focus" - first his focus was "make a case on VE" for several posts, and then he changed over and his next several posts were focused on "have a town read on ryan" - seems kind of like a scum who is very carefully parceling out his "positions" and making sure to milk each of them for posts and attention without actually doing very much, or as someone said in red mini mafia, like he's scum trying to play a "clean" game? idk, something still feels weird about him to me (1) votes VE, because VE "isn't going to play" and "hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town" and (2) Says you look very likely to be mafia because you didn't provide thoughts on what seemed to be an important subject to you and had a dissonance between your pre-game/game posting. The vote post, in all honestly, feels like he has better reasons to be scummy on you, but is voting VE anyway, and it makes it feel like he's not really reading/thinking/scumhunting. His scumhunting turns you up, but he votes VE, who hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town. For reference: + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 05:55 Shelvocke wrote: If VE isn't going to play, we kill him. He hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town and is avoiding discussing anything of value. ##Vote VisceraEyes strongandbig also looks very likely to be mafia. In particular the fact that he considered the number picking strategy to be extremely important but then failed to provide any original thoughts is very suspect. He also seemed very concerned in his pregame posts about roles but didn't provide any insight about them after the game started. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 04:41 gonzaw wrote: After Meapak posts on Shelvocke, here is a summary of talk about shelvocke.People HAVE been talking about Shevlocke. Meapak, you, and some others, ever since D1 started. Scum can "push" any pro-town setup plan they want if they know it will never be implemented. It's also about roles so if implementing that plan gives them enormous town cred why not do it? He didn't push it hard either so that's moot, he just proposed it, and mentioned it in passing in those "fluffy posts" here and there. I won't really comment on Artanis "backing off". It did feel a little off to me if he was scum, but I can't take that as sole evidence he's town or some shit. In MTG 2 Aperture did some stuff that made me back off my scum read on him (there was some stuff that made me and Prome go "Yeah this guy town", like him PMing us out of the game to tell us one of our jokes was funny or something like that) Scum are totally able to do stuff that makes it feel "off" they are scum. Reading his whole play though, it makes me think I should ignore that. I don't mind shevlocke being a lynch candidate or being discussed (hopefully he shows up and does something as well), but I have no reason to lynch him over Artanis today. I also wish someone vigs snoman and/or S&B tonight. This shit is getting ridiculous in terms of activity/caring about the game. I'd prefer sno man dying before S&B though, for reasons previously stated. I also want to know what Obvious concluded about Artanis when he checked his game history. He hasn't concluded anything yet
That's it. I add my thoughts. Meapak asks for comment once. Shelvocke responds to part of my post on him, but that's the sum total of his response to things. Keirathi and Mocsta speak WITH shelvocke about rayn, but aren't analysing shelvocke as a player and shelvocke is dealing with the rayn bits and then poofs away again. So no, gonzaw, and no anyone else who may think that there has been discussion on this. There has NOT been any discussion on Shelvocke. There were reads posted, votes made, and NOBODY commented. He didn't fully address the concerns. It FEELS like there's been discussion on him, but in actuality that entirely untrue and he deserves attention, deserves discussion [and deserves votes]. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 05:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: You have had a lot of posts I've liked, and we have agreed on a couple things this game that make me feel good about you.@austin: you and gonzaw both bring up good points that certain people have cases made about them and then the thread seems to forget or gloss over them. Regardless of who gets lynched today, I think we really need to remember the other suspects from today and address them tomorrow because you're right, there has not been a lot of discussion about people who I feel are very good lynch options. But this post in particular feels weak. You earlier wanted to lynch artanis based on gonzaw's case, with shelvocke as a second choice based on your case and perhaps some of what I brought up. Now you go buddy-mode and say that there are good points being made about "people have cases made about them" that get forgotten, when the "people" at issue are your top and second lynch candidate allegedly. That seems...very uninvested in your reads? | ||
austinmcc
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On April 08 2013 05:16 gonzaw wrote: Not content atm, but not in a way that I think necessitates role usage in order to bring everyone to attention, which may or may not be what you're hinting at.Hmm, one quick question guys (please answer): Are you content with the way this D1 is going? As in, how discussion in general is going, how scumhunting is going, how pressure on players is going, how consolidation is going, etc? How players are part of thread/discussions, etc? I personally don't like it that much. I'd like follow-up on Shelvocke, especially in light of how you felt like there's been a lot of discussion on him when, in actuality, nobody had commented on him before Meapak and I asked about it, and nobody appears to have really looked him back over. | ||
austinmcc
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On April 08 2013 05:35 gonzaw wrote: I went back page by page for like 10, I don't terribly want to go back page by page for the first 60 of the game, but I don't believe this is true. austin, my main point is that Shevlocke was started to being talked about once D1 started. Yes, by the time I made my Artanis case people didn't really talk about him much, but nobody really did anything else other than wagon on S&B and argue with Vivax. I don't think my point on Artanis goes well with Shevlocke because of that. Remember the ONLY time someone called Artanis out was Mepaak and me back in the drafting picking phase basically (and maybe Mocsta when he was arguing with him about geripts case). So until one of us does that, we'll just disagree as to how much discussion there was on each of them. And I'm 100% certain that there was ZERO discussion of him today from the point that meapak and I posted on him until I started poking you about him. And while poking you, nobody else who has been entering the thread appears to really be looking at him either. If you're looking at flying under the radar, ta da! he is. If you're looking for questionable votes, lack of scumhunting in the posts he's made, bursts of activity in which he responds heavily to single discussions (rayn) and then disappears without engaging the thread as a whole, ta da! | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
When I asked you before, you claimed to be null. There were things that originally made you suspicious, according to you, and "some stuff others say makes sense about him," (which btw, was meapak/me saying he was scum). Based on that, you shouldn't just be null. He is a legitimate topic of discussion, he does not have a filter, and he is likely a smurf (I generally assume all new people from odd countries = smurves). That was NOT much of a response from you, tbh. And he's not getting any of the traction you seem to value. Drop your assumptions about how the thread has interacted with him or find those interactions, and then critically read his filter, his vote, and then give me more of your thoughts that "he's null except here are two things that were kind of scummy but apparently don't make me scum on him." | ||
austinmcc
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On April 08 2013 07:11 Restraining Order wrote: Pop open his filter. Look at the times that Shelvocke has interacted with thread.I still don't really understand how people can have a strong read on Shelvocke in either way. Like, everything he's said, and everything people said about him, just looks completely null to me. Is that the crux of the suspicion on him? Because I can see the concern if you look at it from that angle, but it's not a strong indicator in itself either, which is kind of ironic. He talks a little bit about plans, saying to pick what you want, saying that there are lots of roles and stuff that are good, so plans are bad. The plan to put townreads at the top of the pick order is "awful." Doesn't participate at all in the pregame except to just minorly crap on plans. Contrast with, say, Palmar. Palmar very clearly doesn't care about the pre-D1 stuff, whether he's town or scum. Shelvocke seems to care enough to respond and shoot down the occasional post, but he provides nothing that moves FORWARD beyond a very early post saying everyone should do what they want. He wants to talk to gonzaw. About what? The hidden gut scumread. Shelvocke suggests strongandbig, indicating that he is hoping gonzaw's gut read is snb, although that isn't definite. At this point, all we know is Shelvocke is interested in Gonzaw's read, and curious about snb for some unknown reason. Shelvocke finds VE mafia. Is familiar with VE's past play (indicates Shelvocke is a smurf and NOT a new player). Read his post calling VE mafia, do you agree with Shelvocke's reasoning? I still think it's not, because players who sometimes play dumb don't recommend that everyone else play dumb. VE isn't scummy for failing to suggest that people play poorly. Shelvocke then returns, ONE DAY later. 24 hours. He votes VE because VE isn't going to play and "hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town." In other words, Shelvocke has been gone a day. He has returned to thread. He is indicating that he has READ the thread, because he says VE isn't playing/hasn't done anything. But he fails to give any substantive comment on anything VE has said in the last 24 hours, or anything that anyone else has said about VE in the last 24 hours. Instead, he votes snb, noting that snb is "very likely to be mafia." He provides no posts to really show why he thinks snb is mafia, but states some things that can be legitimate concerns - pregame activity into lull during game being sometimes scummy. But he doesn't vote snb. He doesn't seek comment on snb. It's a throwaway read, not fully spelled out with reference to posts or anything specific, and it's basically MORE work than he has done towards VE. To repeat, he votes VE after being gone for 24 hours, but provides no real commentary on VE, and in the same post he provides semi-real commentary on snb, with no vote or anything. Look at his post. Does it make sense to vote VE over snb there if he had to throw a vote? He drops some minor comments. Familiar with PYP Insane, again suggesting a smurf. He asks for mafia games of rayn's. Engages mocsta and keirathi concerning rayn. It's a few posts, and then he's gone agian. That's his filter. It's not empty. It's full a couple things: He feels free to post - little bits, asking Gonzaw about his secret read, asking for old rayn games, etc. He's READING the thread, because he constantly pops in with bits and pieces. However, he hasn't done much as far as most of the action in the game is concerned. He shot down a few posts about plans. He has a scumread on VE (for reasons I don't like), but doesn't seem to comment on VE much except in general terms once he establishes that he's scummy on VE, and he calls snb scum while wanting to vote/lynch VE for not wanting to play/not doing anything to show he's town. One guy is scum. One guy hasn't done anything to show he's town. Who do you vote/lynch in that scenario if those are your two reads? That vote, that vote post, is OFF. It's wrong. Reading the thread but not commenting on much of use? Scummy, especially from someone who appears to be the smurf of at least a somewhat experienced player. Reading the thread but not really bringing specific posts to his points on VE, and especially on snb? Not townie, if he wants votes, if he wants people to vote his scumread, why isn't he really pushing or substantiating his cases? Voting VE for not showing he's town while saying snb is likely mafia? Yes, it's semantics and phrasing there, but to me it shows he's not actually invested in his read/vote, and it's just for show. Outside of his filter, there's the fact that NOBODY wants to comment on him. Lots of lots of dinky little comments about vivax, VE, palmar, etc. Almost no comments on shelvocke until people are FORCED to look at him. That CAN be an indicator that he's scum and his buddies don't want to comment on him, want to see the case blow over. They don't want to call him out as scummy if he's not gonna get pushed. They don't want to associate with him and call him town necessarily. The lack of commentary doesn't MAKE him scum, but it's something to look at and (again imo) it supports the idea that he is. | ||
austinmcc
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On April 08 2013 07:31 gonzaw wrote: It's intentional. @austin: You are being kind of annoying right now dude. I've told you millions of times what I think of Shevlocke (why I'm indecisive on him). I'm waiting to see what he does, or what he doesn't do (the more he fails to drop by here). I won't instantly think he's scum just by rereading his filter again. And I read his filter. I still don't get what makes Shevlocke scummier than Artanis.....like..did I miss a scumslip or something >_> I mean, I get how someone can think of him as scum.....but I'm missing how Artanis looks better than him, and I'm missing that "he's definitely scum" way I feel about scum :/ I will say that the more Shevlocke fails to appear and contribute, the more I feel like I could shoot him as well. I'm torn between sno and shevlocke (although Shevlocke is more of a "yeah he could be scum, but I'm not sure if he should be a lynch (because of stuff explained before); maybe straight up killing him outside of lynch would be better"), leaning on sno. I've told you millions of times what I think of Shevlocke (why I'm indecisive on him) On April 08 2013 03:41 gonzaw wrote: Time #1, You're null on him, except you found some stuff to be suspicious of, and other people calling him out "makes sense." So you're null, or null leaning scum. But that's NOT a strong read, and it's not much of actual thoughts tbh.I'm null on Shevlocke. I had found some stuff I found a little suspicious of him at first (like his first post I believe), and I guess some stuff others say makes sense about him (like how he pushed VE). But nothing convinces me for a D1 lynch. He hasn't been around for much either, which is not good for him, but it isn't good for me to get a better read on him either On April 08 2013 04:41 gonzaw wrote: Time #2 that you mention him. No personal thoughts from you, just a statement that people have been talking about him. I checked the thread to see whether you were correct. I don't believe you were. I have yet to see you post showing that you are correct in thinking this. So what I see is NOT your thoughts on him. I see you thinking he's been discussed when he hasn't. I see you either REMEMBERING him as being more discussed when he wasn't, or outright lying. I'd like to stick with the first, but you (mis)remembering him being brought up this game does NOT equal a read from you on him.People HAVE been talking about Shevlocke. Meapak, you, and some others, ever since D1 started. On April 08 2013 04:47 gonzaw wrote: Time #3. No discussion, he's null-scummy.Anyways this D1 is like a fuckfest, with some null-scummy dudes (Shevlocke, others), and people that don't even show up (snoman, Caller, shevlocke himself, and more and more) On April 08 2013 05:35 gonzaw wrote: Time #4. Your MAIN POINT is that Shelvocke was being talked about. Which I disagree with. Again, you're misremembering or lying. You have provided ZERO posts where he was getting discussed, whereas I have provided 10 pages of "nope, he's not getting discussed." austin, my main point is that Shevlocke was started to being talked about once D1 started. Yes, by the time I made my Artanis case people didn't really talk about him much, but nobody really did anything else other than wagon on S&B and argue with Vivax. I don't think my point on Artanis goes well with Shevlocke because of that. Remember the ONLY time someone called Artanis out was Mepaak and me back in the drafting picking phase basically (and maybe Mocsta when he was arguing with him about geripts case). On April 08 2013 06:31 gonzaw wrote: Time #5. I still want to lynch Artanis. As more people start contributing and doing more stuff (Shevlocke included), we can consolidate better, and maybe even net us another scum via day KP You have mentioned him a couple times. Apart from your very first post, you haven't been telling me what you think of him beyond calling him null-scummy and maybe wanting to shoot him. But when you mention him, you are IN PART relying on some statements that I think are false memories or intentional attempts to prop him up. Despite claiming to have day KP, and seeing him as a potential day KP target, you don't seem to have any desire to actually go back and SEE whether your memory is correct or not. At the very least, I need you to level with me, because I'm also trying to read you off of this. Don't tell me you've told me a bunch of times what you think of him, because you really haven't. Don't tell me that he was discussed a bunch, because he wasn't. DO actually take a moment and go, "Oh man, I'm relying on something in making this read and I'm being told it's wrong. Am I wrong here? Am I relying on something that isn't true? Holy balls, I'm town, and I don't like the idea that I might be remembering people talk about him when nobody did, I better go check to make sure I'm not reading someone based on stuff that didn't happen." THAT is why I'm being annoying. Because I think Shelvocke is mafia, but even if he's not, the way that you are interacting with me about him is showing me that you just don't care. You find his vote null? You find his reading the thread but only commenting on side issues occasionally null? You find him reading thread but voting VE without really addressing 24 hours of activity by VE or about VE null? If not, then you're not really giving me your read here, not discussing this. So I'm being annoying and insistent because I don't like that, ESPECIALLY if you have day KP and are refusing to actually engage and look at someone who is apparently on your short list of people to shoot with the KP you may have. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 07:52 Shelvocke wrote: Nope. I think you're the towniest mofo here.Austin, what is your point? Do you actually think that me having different expectations for VE and strongandbig and people not talking about me are good reasons to think that I'm mafia? Like right now I'm resisting the urge to call you a tunneling moron so much, it's not even funny. Wait, that's wrong. My point is that I think you're mafia. You're following thread by mainly providing minor comments on side issues. I dislike your reason for thinking VE is mafia, but you put it in thread, and me disagreeing with your analysis doesn't make you mafia. But you vote him without saying anything about what he said or anyone said about him over a 24 hour period, while reading thread enough to comment on snb and to say later that VE was asking to be lynched. Your scumread, your vote, seems less important to you than he should be, because instead of commenting on him over that 24 hour period you comment on snb. Your read on snb is fluffy. No posts. No follow-up. Poking gonzaw earlier about snb, so apparently you've been somewhat focused on snb, but two dinky little lines are all you've got about snb? Not buying. Right now I AM tunneling you. I'll address that later. Here, since you're around: (1) Do you continue to to find snb scummy? Can you give me less-fluffy reasons for that read? (2) Do you agree with Gonzaw that you were discussed/suspicified earlier in the game/moreso than Artanis was? If you don't, does that affect your Gonzaw read? (3) How do you feel about any two of the following: mocsta, keirathi, sinani? | ||
austinmcc
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On April 08 2013 08:01 gonzaw wrote: We may be on slightly different pages here, but I don't think I'm missing your meaning as much as you think.@austin: Stop with the "he was discussed off a bunch" thing. Reread that part of my case, and what exactly I mean by it. I'm not meaning what you think I'm meaning. My point was that Artanis wasn't mentioned at all in the rolepicking phase nor D1. Shevlocke was mentioned in D1. There, argument ended. If you think that shelvocke was mentioned in the number picking phase, you would be wrong. At least, I'm all the way back to page 15 ctrl + f-ing for both "shelv" AND "shev" (some people are typoing it like that) on every page and not finding anyone with a read on him. If you think he was discussed during the time where we had numbers and were picking roles, you'd be wrong. He was not. However, if you're just talking about D1, after the first 2+ real life days in this game, then yeah, he was MENTIONED (barely). But not by many, and there was never any followup from anyone. strongandbig says that Shelvocke is scum after Shelvocke starts on VE. No followup, nobody else talked about this but BM who called snb scum based on some association, then filtered snb and decided he wasn't scum. Vivax commented on him as part of thoughts on three folks. Seems to have found shelvocke's actions concerning VE's case on RO to not match up with what he would expect a townie's actions to be. But didn't seek any comment, didn't really say more than that. It's a mention, but it's not a discussion at all. On April 07 2013 09:43 Restraining Order wrote: Vivax mentions him again to RO, asking RO for a read. RO explicitly has no read. I don't have one, really. + Show Spoiler + I don't have any hope at all for the quality of your read on me, so that does not sound very enticing, just so you know. If I'm looking for people who have been mentioned/discussed, I'm looking for more than that. I will go ctrl + F for artanis if need be, but I think you're mistaken in how much each player got mentioned. Shelvocke certainly wasn't mentioned before the start of the actual voting phase, and once that started he got a couple offhand mentions but really nothing until I've been trying to push this. Those couple comments on him are really more than artanis got mentioned? And they count as like...actual mentions and comments? | ||
austinmcc
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austinmcc
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On April 08 2013 09:31 gonzaw wrote: Nooooooooooooooooooo. Stahp with those letters. That is already on my WHAT IS GOING ON list of things in this game. Have I missed a recent reference here? Because as far as I've been able to tell, someone posted that this game out of nowhere, Palmar joined for some unknown reason, and now you're mentioning it.Gonzaw post I went through your case and told you a couple reasons I was townie on him. Scum can look active proposing plans, and not pushing anything hard, but I think that the particular plan that artanis mentioned and pushed was very anti-scum, and he could have posted a different plan/joined someone else's plan if he were scum and wanted to look active. I also find the timing on his geript stuff to be townie. Push him, leave, come back, actually re-read his stuff and change your read at the very very start of the game. No need to do that. No real scum purpose in doing that. Makes the geript bit look like a legitimate read that he then reconsidered later. Honestly that's a lot of the reason I don't like him for scum. I'll take a look at British but probably tomorrow while at work. Poking around elsewhere tonight. Still disagree with you on Shelvocke. I think he HAS posted a lot of fluff. I think a lot of his reads are unsubstantiated and don't feel real (No snb posts, not following up on VE, see the recent bit with rayn/mocsta/keirathi where he just makes this weird comment and that's it with no real reference to WHY he thinks what he says he thinks or what posts make him think what he says he thinks). | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 09:31 gonzaw wrote: All of Artanis's scum games. Unless I'm missing something. Database shows 8 old town games. And I think he's been in some hydra games? Dunno if he was scum in any of those.Also I dunno why but after Obvious reading ALL of Artanis games and concluding the same thing as I do....it makes me feel better about my Artanis read >_> On April 08 2013 09:42 yamato77 wrote: OO's analysis of his meta is decent, and coupled with gonzaw's case, I could see Artanus as scum. Wait, what? I really didn't find the meta post convincing. I did not go look at artanis's games myself, will admit that. But I can never tell whether I'd agree with someone's summaries of another person's meta when they give all these conclusions and like 4 posts TOTAL from 4 games of filter. I don't know what conclusions he's drawing from some of what he posted... Among things that I question, I see that the town games were a mini and a 16-man game, and that one of OO's points from British Empire was that artanis was trying to change his style. That doesn't mean that meta is useless, at all, but OO never addresses that, doesn't explain why IF there was a change in style he feels that the change is because of alignment. I see a post from a scum POSTGAME that Artanis would lurk in a big game, and then I see OO calling Artanis out in a 20+ player game for being barely here. I dunno. I do not know where the characteristics that OO presents are drawn from. I do not know how he reaches the conclusion he does when it conflicts with some of what he found. The 2nd to last paragraph of OO's was the best part of the whole thing for me, not any of the presented characteristics. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 09:54 Mocsta wrote: I fully disagree on this point. For one, town austinmcc is entirely equivalent to this. Rawr. I don't even think we've played many games together when I'm town and have played decently.Disagree. The plan itself was pro-town; but not how he went about campaigning it. There is a distinct lack of conviction. For some reason you are choosing to judge him from his actions; not his motivations. A town AustinMCC is better than this. But aside from that, we don't disagree on artanis's early game plan. He did not push/seem full on conviction on a pro-town plan. We agree there. I put emphasis on the fact that he was the sole person mentioning a heavy RNG plan. I put emphasis on the fact that the plan feels VERY anti-mafia, because no matter what town plans mafia can at least plan around it, except with RNG you're limiting your ability to plan around anything. It's a very pro-town/anti-mafia plan imo. In a vacuum, I do not find it likely that a mafia player looking to be active would choose to lightly push THAT particular plan, or wouldn't hop off it and just parrot some other plan. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On April 08 2013 10:17 gonzaw wrote: I'll go reread some past games, but probably tomorrow while at work. austin, go read British Mafia 2 once and for all before just dismissing it and saying "yeah I haven't read his games yet" :/ I remember Artanis in LI (I forgot he was there if OO hadn't mentioned it lol) accused me of a scumslip as well. I....the most pro-town motherfucker in LI, and he caught a "scumslip" and seriously accused me, using an aggressive serious tone. I instantly knew he was scum after that....it was impossible a townie would do that Now go read his geript case. Geript was pretty much town (in the eyes of many, me, yamato, etc), and Artanis comes up with some "bullshit" stuff (including the scumslip) and goes against him. I had the same reaction I'm going to trust my gut on this one. Mocsta, I really hope you took a vote-altering role; cos politician suits you to a tee. Almost actually, but taking and using a vote-altering role is basically using KP, and I didn't want to do that.No, I hadn't read the post you're referencing when writing mine. Your "another attempt to contribute something meaningful without contributing" is equivalent to my "mafia player trying to look active." It's not enough, to me, to say that someone contributed something that LOOKED meaningful but didn't push it/turns out it wasn't/whatever. They chose to present a particular thing, to try to appear like they were contributing on a particular point. I do not see mafia, trying to appear like they were contributing to the plan discussion, putting forth the RNG plan. It's the thing that got contributed, whether pushed or not, chosen out of all the various posts/plans/comments that artanis could have made, that has me townie on him. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
And YEAH. You can come up with some super pro-town idea in game, release it, and proceed to fuck off. There's a 100% chance that I'll find someone who puts forth a super pro-town idea to be likely town. I may be wrong here. I might be wrong if you ever do that. But I forgot that coming up with super pro-town plans was NOT a townie thing to do. So yes, I may be horribly horribly wrong here. One side of this is. But all in all, I like shelvocke better than artanis for scum, and even if he weren't here I'd be looking at non-artanises for my vote. | ||
austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
THIS POST On April 08 2013 19:44 strongandbig wrote: Pages of chatter about what role must have shot gonzaw, etc. Yet nobody else asked this question? did anyone try to pick assassin and get denied? If you tried to pick assassin and are a VT, you should claim. YES, that opens yourself up to being killed by BC or an Assassin. However: (1) BC role has limited shots. Not unlikely that if we have a scum-BC, he wouldn't use those shots on VTs. (2) Unless you're like 24th or 25th on the list, you claiming gives us valuable information. PYP games always seem to include some reverse-engineering of who-picked-what, and we need to know if you tried to get a role that is almost certainly in scum hands to narrow down where that role is. (3) Per the OP, the assassin gets a kill per cycle. He can't just machine-gun down everyone. So you're not in massive danger of dying to an assassin if you say you tried to get that role and are now VT, because we've already had a couple soft claims as well. You can't get assassinated before next day, and even then, it looks like people are claim happy and the assassin would have other targets with perhaps roles that scum doesn't want active. So please, if you tried to pick assassin and did not get it, and you're not at the very, very bottom of the list, speak up. | ||
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