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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for votes, I can tell you I don't have many. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for scum like you. If you let my town go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not analyze you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will lynch you. That was fun! Now for real stuff: I don't like GreYMisT's first post. A few people had already called out Peashooter's post as not being particularly useful, but even after that, he still feels the need to scold him for it. It looks like he wanted to make a "strong" entrance and needed something to be strong about. I don't like goodkarma's posts so far either. They're quite bland in nature. The first one is a simply policy post pointing out pretty trivial/obvious stuff. I note that at the bottom he says that " I highly recommend we don't waste time on setup speculation and focus on finding scum.". Next post, he calls out VE, but again the way he disagrees with him is pretty uninspired. He's just mentions general things that are supposed to make up good town play, but doesn't give more solid reasoning than that. I contrast that to zarepath's post, in which he provides more solid reasoning for why he disagrees. Again, at the bottom of the post he says, "I humbly request we focus on scumhunting.". This is what sets me off about him, because both times, he only mentions general things that paint decent town play in broad strokes, and mentions that we should focus on scumhunting. However, he doesn't seem like he wants to do that himself yet. The first post is pretty excusable, because it was very early in the game, but before his second post, there was enough people/content in the thread that he could have had some ideas on players. However, he doesn't post any. He posts a general opposition to VE's plan, but doesn't say what that makes him think one way or the other about VE himself. Then after that, he asks the thread to scumhunt. This looks a lot to me like a player who wants to look like they're promoting a good atmosphere without doing anything contributory himself by mentioning good town play, but not making a real effort to promote it or following his own example. So, those are two of the people I'm suspicious of right now that I'd like to share. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 17 2013 01:46 ThePeashooter wrote: Well shucks, I have the approval of a kitaman! Well then, let's get down to business. Coagulation I see no reason for you to continue being in this game. You have posted nothing of value and show no signs of doing so. Annoying spam is annoying. I always hated when people do this and that is not going to change. Why bother saying it? I know making my first post always feels contrived because I never know where to begin, but just saying something stupid and worthless is even worse. Here are his other two gems. Yeah, its only 3 posts. But I don't care. This trend is stupid and I don't feel like letting this game succumb to spam or stupidity. Vote: Coagulation Are you familiar with Coagulation's regular play? | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 17 2013 03:53 goodkarma wrote: Okay. I can understand it was early. But if we were to look in the here and now you still haven't provided anything that suggests who you think could be scum. I think what peashooter, and others here are getting at, is either post something that helps us scumhunt, or don't post at all. I am less inclined than others here to just policy lynch you. But you make it hard for us when you continue to spam the thread with emotional OMGUS responses. Hopefully you see where we're coming from. I would be most interested in hearing about your read on Grey. What are your own reads for scum? You've mentioned twice the need to scumhunt, and here you're chiding Coag for not providing anything in regards to who he thinks is scum, when you yourself have done the same. It's just more of the same general game play talk with no actual stances taken in regards to your own opinions. ##Vote: goodkarma Convince me you're not scum. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 17 2013 05:31 goodkarma wrote: @Mr. Wiggles: Sowy, but I'm not giving you any scumreads until I'm ready to. You claim I haven't been scumhunting, but if you were to look at my posting so far I have: 1) Worked towards establishing a pro-town atmosphere, a reasonable early goal 2) Been pushing others for reads to get a better understanding of their motives and thought process, which is very important to getting scumreads As far as cases go, which aren't the only component of scumhunting: As I said, when I'm ready. And I promise you it will be long before the end of the day. But what I'd recommend you to do right now is to focus some of your energies on getting others to participate (not everyone has even posted yet!), and pursue some of your other scumreads. Because tunneling one read, and going into lurker mode thereafter is in itself pretty scummy... 1) You haven't really worked towards a pro-town atmosphere. Saying "We need to scumhunt" doesn't do much to make anyone do anything. 2) You hadn't been pushing people (which you pluralized) for reads at that point. You asked one person what they thought of Grey. Asking other people what they think without stating any of your own opinion doesn't tell me anything about you. I already had made a post at that point saying that I didn't like that you were talking about how we need to scumhunt without doing any of it that we could see yourself. The rest of this defense is pretty funny. You're basically trying to deflect attention away from yourself and towards me. I'd made two posts at that point. One saying that I thought you were suspicious, and another following it up when you continued the same behaviour. I don't feel that constitutes tunneling. As well, you say I should focus my efforts on getting people to post. But, that is a fruitless endeavor, as saying "Please post", is unlikely to get anyone to. Instead, presenting my thoughts on scum is more likely to get people to post, as this gives them something to actually talk about. Also, doesn't that go against what you've been saying? Why should I stop poking you (scumhunting), and try to do something useless instead? Lastly, you need to look up what lurking is. I don't see a reason to change up my vote. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 17 2013 09:27 Wade Fell wrote: There is a possibility he's a smurf of a younger player who hasn't heard of coag, or he literally made his account just before this game started, just to sign up for the last spot. I consider both of these possibilities somewhat unlikely. And, even considering the apparent vacuousness of his vote on coag, he hasn't taken a stance on GK or Geript or really anyone or anything, ignoring all other discussion in town to tunnel his target. This is an easy way for scum to avoid meaningful interaction with town and giving out reads. We don't know anything about his thought-process, so of course it seems WIFOM-ey-- but his play absolutely prevents us from clearing the wine from in front of us. I'm not saying he's a bad scum player-- this is a clever ruse. But he is scum. Town would have an opinion on GK, ESPECIALLY town pushing another lynch. Can this guy really be considered to be "pushing" coag given that he hasn't tried to stop the GK lynch at all? He's putting forth a simulacrum of what a townie does. Clever, but not enough. The thing about this analysis, is that he hasn't done anything at all since he called out Coag. I think it's disingenuous to say he's tunneling Coag when he made a post calling him out, I asked him if he was familiar with his meta, and he freaked out within a short time frame. I agree that I wouldn't say he's pushing Coag, but we don't know if he's just apathetic to pushing it, or he agrees with other cases since he's gone inactive. So I don't really have warm fuzzy feelings about the guy, but I think your case is somewhat misrepresentative, just because he hasn't posted and it's basing things as though he's actually been around to exhibit that behaviour. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I think I need to wait for him to post some more to get a more solid read. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 17 2013 11:07 Wade Fell wrote: Will your thoughts on him be the same if he's gone for another 6 hours, wiggles? What if he's gone for the rest of the day? I have someone else in mind for the lynch, and then a vig can just get rid of him if possible. He has to post sometime. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 17 2013 13:15 ThePeashooter wrote: So to expand on what I was saying earlier. I think Coagulation has only shown himself to be more scummy. I was more or less making a casual prod at him to get a reaction and his response was horrible. I truly do not know why no one gave it more attention, but I will explain. He basically missed the whole point. I'd prefer he was inactive until he became useful as opposed to just posting worthless dribble. Then he just decides to attack me without actually providing anything useful, continuing to completely miss the point I was jabbing him anyway. He could just be stupid, but in mafia, I have found it's wiser to assume Malice before excusing stupidity. This is the post that really did it for me. I get it, I accused you. You come out at mad as hell, then say you want to lynch me, but immediately try to absolve yourself of responsibility if it goes wrong. When you combine that with Wade Fall wanting to kill me it could easily snowball and he would still have his wishy washy read and be able to deny responsibility. Then he leaves again without ever having said anything constructive or useful. To make a few bullets: 1. Spams and posts nothing of value. 2. In response to that he attacks a strawman. No one ever called him inactive, we said he was posting nothing of value. 3. Thinks I'm really scummy and refuses to actually truly commit on his accusation, which looks like he wants to divert blame if it goes bad. 4. Leaves again without ever actually contributing anything. I truly don't see any reason to keep him around. Which is why I would recommend voting for him over GK, particularly if GK posts something of substance. I am currently leaning more heavily on Coagulation being a better candidate. I would like to hear Mr. Wiggles respond to this case though. I actually find this a little tough to respond to, because most of my stance towards Coag is based on gut feeling, so that makes it harder to put it into words and explain adequately. Basically, Coag makes short posts a lot of the time, and spams sometimes. He will also post emotionally sometimes. It depends a bit on context though. If he's been playing here recently and he got called out for spamming or not being present in the thread 24 hours a day, I could see him making those posts towards you. If he's scum though, he's smart enough to post like that in order to leverage it to his advantage somehow. In my experience, he isn't the most useful player on Day 1, and starts to have better reads and to share those reads and go after players on later days. That's why I'd be hesitant to lynch him right now. I'd rather wait and just see how he plays. If he doesn't do anything, we can lynch/vig him, otherwise, he'll start to pull his weight. He doesn't play the same as a lot of other people, and I guess it's a little similar to Kenpachi or something. Games I've seen sometimes recently have people wanting to kill Kenpachi because he posts a lot of one-liners and some spammy throw-away posts. But, that's just the way he plays, and people aren't used to it. Coag is kind've similar, unless he's changed since I've played with him. So, I can't contradict that his posts haven't had a ton of bearing on the game so far, or that his response to you was a bit disproportionate, but I can't say I want to lynch him for it, since lynching him would basically be a coin-flip at this stage of the game, as I don't think the way he's been playing is really indicative of his alignment. You can try to policy lynch him, but it won't do anything. You'll just do it for a few games in a row, and he'll just stop playing here for a while. I don't see him changing his play-style just because some people don't like it. tl;dr: Wait and see? I can't make a judgement call one way or the other as far as his alignment (i.e. he's null to me), so I think a different lynch is a better bet to hit red. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Since you seem to know his play intimately, BH, is there anywhere I can read where he was put under pressure or threat of lynch? If there's examples as both alignments, that would be nice. I didn't follow any of his games, so I can't find it easily without reading them all. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 17 2013 13:21 Vivax wrote: Yamato i think coagulation is not a good choice for d1 for reasons wf pointed out, gk isnt either i think. Since i think you're the guy i just mentioned i might actually change my mind about you. Could you look at cosmicomics when you have time? Also sandro and especially his town meta. Never seen him make such an entrance. It's not like he just calls him Yamato in passing, he calls him Yamato and then says he thinks that's who he is. I'm not going to get into the WIFOM of how he guessed him or not, because I have no idea how close they are, how much they've played together, etc. Can someone provide some additional reasoning on how this actually makes him scum, and how this is enough to lynch him? I'm not really seeing it. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:24 Coagulation wrote: he could of easily put that in when he seen his slip to cover his ass. in fact thats what it looks like. seems out of place for sure. why did he not discuss this in the post where he uhh you know made the wild random accusation. What? If he saw a slip, why wouldn't he just not click up a line and hit backspace a few times instead of leaving it in and typing another line? That doesn't make any sense. That's also the first place I see him calling Peashooter Yamato. Did he call him Yamato before? | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
For the points you bring up against him, I don't think they necessarily point to him being scum. We had a couple people voting for others because of them doing things they perceived as being anti-town. I don't think it's good play, but I don't think it necessarily points to the people doing it as scum, since it's something people tend to do commonly. Then, I don't see him being that inconsistent. He says that he doesn't like the post GK had just made, but that he isn't ready to lynch him yet. He then says that he disagrees with BH's meta case. The reason I don't see this as inconsistent, is because in contrast to BH, he doesn't call GK as being town. DP has a more moderate read of GK, saying that he isn't ready to lynch him, in contrast to BH, who asserts that "This is town GK.". So, he's not questioning it because of meta, he's questioning that BH sounds almost 100% sure that GK is town in that post based only on meta. With reference to the above, I don't really see him as attacking and defending GK in a scummy way. He says he doesn't like his posting, but that he doesn't want to lynch him. He's actually taking a stance on the lynch, which I don't think scum would do if they were playing the middle like you're implying. If he wanted to attack and defend GK, he wouldn't give a definite answer on whether to lynch him, because that means he can't set himself up to pick a side later depending on how popular opinion goes. So overall, I don't think the case is strong enough to lynch DP. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 18 2013 04:57 sciberbia wrote: Wiggles, how would you feel about a GreyMist or zarepath lynch? I'm actually feeling the GreYMist lynch right now. I didn't really like the way he entered the thread, and stated so earlier. When he posted later, he just made a post to Dr.H, and didn't respond to any of the posts against him. His "trap" seems pretty contrived to me. When asked about it by Kita, he doesn't respond. Then, his actions strike me as opportunistic. He hops onto GK, which was the major wagon, then when focus shifts somewhat towards Vivax, he quickly agrees with that case as well. He defends against the Sandroba lynch, but realistically, it wasn't going to happen at that point, because he had gone inactive. So, that makes that lynch really easy to defend, since a lot of it is based on activity. I also like the Ryu's case against him, and agree with a lot of it. On March 18 2013 05:18 VisceraEyes wrote: No I'm fine with GreYMisT for now. He might be scum but the way he's approaching scumhunting feels genuine and I'm not interested in a GM lynch today. This nonsense about a "trap" is completely manufactured. I read GM's post about "I've been waiting for this" as "You've been saying you're scumhunting and I've seen no proof. Now you've posted it and I'm excited." How do we know that though? He doesn't have any posts before then mentioning any opinion about GK. Also, kita asked him about the "trap", and GreY completely ignored him. He didn't deny that it was a trap, and didn't provide any explanation at all about what he meant. That seems evasive to me, because instead of clearing up confusion, he just lets it slide, like maybe people would forget about it. As for GK, I'm somewhat less sure of my read now, after his recent posting and BH's meta defense of him. Looking at his past games, he does seem to have a distinction between his town and scum play, and his play this game is closer to his habitual town play. That isn't enough to completely clear him though, but his recent posts have done a bit to make me feel better about him. So right now, I'm not as strongly convinced he's scum, and might move my vote. I need to do some stuff, so I probably won't post for a while. I want to see how the situation evolves and how GreY responds to points brought up against him, and to Ryu's case. I'll be back to post before the deadline. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
The GreY situation has put us in a bad position now, because he's not giving us anything to work with. He's either town who's given up or mafia who isn't going to give any information because he thinks he's dead. So all we have to work with is his earlier posts, and those get me to think he's scum, as per my earlier post. So, that's where my vote's going. I don't know if I'll be back to read or change my vote before the deadline. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I pray the Town my soul to keep, If I shall die before I wake, I pray the Town my soul to take. Then he'll really be dead tired YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I haven't really read too deeply since night time. I've been sort of skimming over the thread and reading a bit more for certain posts/posters, but that's it right now. I won't be awake to post stuff right before the deadline, so I've weighed between posting some stuff now about reads or just waiting, and I've opted to wait. I'm waiting to see what happens with the day post, and I haven't really gotten to pay close attention to the reactions to the GreY flip. Any post I make won't be much better than a Day 1 read, so I don't think it will help much as compared to the possibility of it becoming WIFOM if I die. I noticed some people questioning my decision making regarding GreY's lynch, and my last post before the flip, so I'll go a bit into my thought process. Basically, GreY was someone I was watching throughout the day. I thought he was scummy, and Ryu's post lined up a lot with what I was thinking about him. I wanted to see how GreY would react or try to defend himself, but unfortunately he never did. He just gave up, which put us in a crappy situation, because you can either weigh it as a townie giving up, or as a mafia ploy. Based on how he acted earlier, I concluded he was more likely to be scum, and voted for him. I said it was a bad situation, because when he just martyrs himself and acts apathetically, he doesn't give us anything else to work with, and you can't just drop the case because he stopped posting. I'll watch the thread for a little less than an hour if anyone has questions about some things for me. I don't really want to post a list of reads though. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
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On March 19 2013 13:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Why not? Because if he's town he's a free shot on a strong role paired with a potentially strong player for scum. Makes more sense to wait until day time if you had to do it. @BH/Geript: Can you two cut it out? It's a game, you don't have to get personal. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
About the Peashooter case. Can someone point out the scum motivations in his posting to me? I see there's a case, but some of it seems like it's on an emotional basis, and some it's based on activity, neither of which I see as being valid for calling him scum. Reading through his posts, I don't see scum motivation though. He's not trying to misdirect us, and he's not trying that much to fit in and hide. The feeling I get from him is that he's just pretty angry, but it seem honest. For example, he got all mad at Coag, but then later he gets all mad at Kenpachi for similar reasons. So, he's consistent with it. Deleted a bit about layabout, I like his recent posting. I'm waiting on a couple of other people to continue posting. I'd like to see how they react to recent developments. As for VE/BH, I don't want to lynch into them right now. I'd rather let scum or vigs sort them out for us. I find them hard to read, because they play very emotionally, and they do/say a lot of things I find scummy/disagree with from a play perspective on a regular basis. If VE was actually shot, and BH is a mason, then scum will have to go after them sooner or later. If they don't, they're either going to start to doing good work as town, or else they're going to out themselves as scum, because if I remember right, their scum play isn't the greatest compared to their town play. I think we can find better targets for today. I'm going to do some stuff, and then read through some of the other posters who haven't really caught my attention or who have been avoiding the spotlight. I feel there's a good chance of finding scum among them. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 20 2013 07:38 VisceraEyes wrote: The fact that everyone in that post is null. He has zero scumreads and considering he's good enough to disagree with "a lot of things" I say and do, you'd think he'd have mentioned some of them. Yet he doesn't want to lynch into me. Why? He says he's waiting for others to post "to see how they react to recent developments". If they react the way Wiggles just reacted (no opinion, no conclusions, just wait and see meh whatever) then what use is there for waiting? He's stalling. He doesn't want to contribute, but wants to seem like he's contributing. I disagree with the stuff you do like having silly fights with people, spamming to make a point, making weird emotional appeals to people, "I know you can do better", "I know you're better than this", and jumping around in between targets like you're a rubber ball. I disagree with them, I normally find them scummy, but that's just how you play. I've called you scum in past games for it, and it just devolved into a big argument that provided nothing. Why would I do that again? I'm saying the stuff you do always makes me unsure of your alignment, and I have trouble reading you for it. I'm just being honest. As for not having a bunch of scum reads, the state of the game is a big mess right now. I need to read more. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
He goes from being super-sure that Zarepath is scum and saying I'm his strongest town read, even baiting Zare into saying I'm scum to call him scum again, to wanting to lynch him as the day started, to agreeing with him, when all he did was reiterate the same stuff he said about me last night. So his read on him goes from scum -> town, and the last thing he's saying about him, is that something he did looks scummy. As for me, he's saying I'm town, and then that I'm scum, when all that happened is I made two posts at night, where I said I wasn't going to post reads, and was inactive for a while. His reads did a complete 180s, and the flips happened in line with what's popular at the time. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 20 2013 10:16 kitaman27 wrote: Since I made it pretty clear what I thought about his alignment, I'd be much more interested listening to what you had to say, rather than justifying it for you. Do you have a mafia read on Wave? I think he's scummy, yes. He caught my attention somewhat with his really weird reaction to getting called out by GreYMisT, and the random rage he exhibited, as well as making a weird appeal to the town being bad. On March 18 2013 22:54 WaveofShadow wrote: Also glurio, you're still a newbie in my eyes so maybe I can excuse your immediate contradiction within your post. You imply that it's dumb that people are going for those who originally voted DP (namely, you) and group me along with you, and then IN THE SAME FUCKING POST you accuse me of shit WHEN WE'RE IN THE SAME BOAT? Is this really the town I'm going to have to put up with this game? REALLY? It's not like his Day 1 play was the strongest or towniest in the world, and then when people are pointing some fingers at him, he freaks out and tries to shame them out of doing it by indirectly calling them bad. It seems like a scummy way to try to shut down conversation when coupled with the raginess of the post. He basically gets mad and calls out the people as being bad/undesirable to play with. Then, I think his wishy-washiness with his reads is weird too, as pointed out. It would be different if I was posting between his strong town read of me and his scum read of me, but I wasn't. He also agrees with what I would say he showed to be his strongest scum read prior about the case he made against me, when he made the exact case before, and he vehemently disagreed. This is a weird switch to me, since activity shouldn't really dictate your reads. Then, the only real change with Zare was a big post of short reads, and the same case he had before. It seems weird that would change the guy from being who you want to try to lynch, to someone you trust as town, when that was all he really did in the mean time that was quite different from his prior activity. However, this change did come after more people posted saying they read Zare as town, and I was starting to get called out as scum, which seems to line up with the idea that he was following town opinion. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 20 2013 10:48 Kenpachi wrote: we're all kidding here, goodkarma is still scum. Pretty much, his defense relies on the fact that he's playing like his meta. .. okay .. Day 1, its massively easy for you to fill in as yourself (somebody said this and i can testify but then, my testimonial isn't reliable.) It only makes too much sense to me for him to be scum. if he isn't we figure out a lot about the alignments of all the players because right now, it's all over the place. The last 15 pages was just 1 large pressure fest and i believe we should boldly lynch goodkarma. Goodkarma was a hot topic and was taken seriously as a lynch candidate and was seriously defended by a good amount of players. You think his play past Day 1 points to him being scum? | ||
Mr. Wiggles
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On March 20 2013 10:57 Kenpachi wrote: I think the meta argument in day 1 is weaksauce. Ok, but what about after that? Do you think how he acted after that shows that he's scum, or is your argument based only on the Day 1 stuff? | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I'm tired of people making cases on me based on me not sitting on my ass playing mafia all day to the exclusion of other things. You don't see me blowing up. Because stupid emotional appeals are shit play or scum trying to worm out of a lynch. ##Vote: WaveofShadow | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been: Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any. Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*. Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise. When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting: On March 19 2013 11:59 Ace wrote: I just recently got my role guys, going to read the thread from Day 1 later and start casting votes ^_^ However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia. The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch. Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets. He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE: On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote: Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months. Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds: On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote: We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb. But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand. I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz. On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote: zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved. So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day. Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy: Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion. Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote: lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote: your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party. Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote: I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote: Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote: Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months. Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party. Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia. This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang. ##Vote: Ace Supporting Meta: + Show Spoiler + As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum. Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377 I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling. In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts: + Show Spoiler + On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote: I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote: Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food. I roll auto-town in every game I play. On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote: youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind. In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances. Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum. The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch? Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else. So why would you lynch youngminii? The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player. Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move. But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor. supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum. On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote: supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally). Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good. Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs. Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town. If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with. It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game. As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited. So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On March 21 2013 12:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I want Ace to die. As I'm about to show, he is scum, and his head should roll. Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been: Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any. Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*. Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise. When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting: However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia. The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch. Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets. He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE: He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds: So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day. Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy: Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion. Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote: lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote: your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party. Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote: I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote: Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote: Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months. Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party. Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia. This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang. ##Vote: Ace Supporting Meta: + Show Spoiler + As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum. Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377 I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling. In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts: + Show Spoiler + On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote: I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote: Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food. I roll auto-town in every game I play. On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote: youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind. In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances. Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum. The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch? Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else. So why would you lynch youngminii? The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player. Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move. But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor. supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum. On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote: supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally). Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good. Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs. Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town. If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with. It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game. As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited. So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
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On March 21 2013 13:01 Mocsta wrote: I said it before... Wiggles case reads nice and all but if ace is scum.. hopless1der is scum. I want to see why hopeless1der is scum.. cos id ont recall anyone having him as a scum read. Why do I have to do that? Regardless of how hopeless1der played, I read Ace as scum based on his own play since he replaced in the game. If I go back and look at Hopeless1der, I'm just going to end up with an analysis riddled with confirmation bias anyways because I already think Ace is scum. I don't see how it's useful to my case against Ace. You said it yourself, if Ace is scum, Hopeless1der is scum, which means that I'm going to read him that way because I'm already biased against him. Instead, can you tell me something Hopeless1der did that makes Ace town despite my analysis? Because I skimmed through his filter, and I'm not seeing anything worthy of exonerating him. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
The push-back to the case has been weird, with people saying that it's a strong case, but it's too late to vote for him, when there's now 4 votes on him, and several people have been swapping votes or trying to bring up other counter-wagons at the same time. Remember to think critically about it though, and not just sheep. I want people to vote with me because they agree with the case, not because it becomes some popular bandwagon. Sweet dreams. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On March 21 2013 13:49 geript wrote: Half of these conversations are literally leading nowhere. Lets just cut them out. Here are the wagons I'm seeing: 1. Ace based on being un-Ace-like, not following through on scum hunting and recognizing/assuming 3P. Iirc VE said it was 3P before the logs and the logs looked to indicate 3P to me. 2. Cosmic for no scum hunt, random 180 and no follow up on VE case. 3. Test for martyring is scummy, emotionally detached and safe votes. Martyring should be a policy lynch from here forth but can be done from either side. 4. GK for no scum hunt and meta (although disagreement) 5. VE as possible 3p, making town to nuts, etc. None of these cases are great IMO. Not a single one of them. There are clearly opportunistic reasons to attack or defend against all of them and there's very little to be gained from analyzing much of any of how the opinions are going here. At this point, I really think that I still think that the best lynch is VE for a few reasons: 1. It tells us a lot about the PMs between BH and VE 2. It gets rid of possible scum/3P dependent on what the mirror is exactly 3. It gives us more information for moving forward as then we get to either dismiss all the VE bs or follow up on his looks at wiggles, BH and Ace My case on Ace is based on him promising to scumhunt while failing to do so and simultaneously derailing the town away from scumhunting by focusing them elsewhere. He also doesn't question The Mirror being third party at all, while using that as the basis for his push to kill VE. You'd think he'd at least provide an argument for why The Mirror must be an actual recruiter and can't just be mafia. The meta part is just extra, and the case stands on its own without it. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Also, sorry about your dog, Dr. H. | ||
Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Consolidated reads: Not Mafia Reads (Probably wrong about a couple): ThePeaShooter: I read this guy as town earlier, and I still do. Nothing he has done has caused me to need to change my read since then. There's also supposedly a DT check on the guy, which is ok. layabout: I had initially read layabout as mostly asking questions and not really doing too much, so I was leaning scum on him. I looked into a couple of his past games though, and this is how he typically seems to play. His play since about halfway through Day 2 though has improved and made me think he's much more likely to be town. Coagulation: I read him as town. His play to me suggests that he's invested in what's best for town, and is trying to help. Therefore, he reads as being likely to be town to me. Ryu Suzaku: His posts seem very organic to me, and he's been posting his thoughts in the thread. That gets me to lean towards him not being scum. He hasn't had a great presence in thread though, so you might need to pressure him or interact with him more in thread to get a better read for late game. Kenpachi: I find Kenpachi hard to read normally. This game though, it feels like he's been sharing his reads pretty openly, and he cares what happens to town. He doesn't have much presence or weight behind him though, so he's been pretty ineffectual. I'm leaning not scum on him right now, but like I said, he's hard to read, so take it with a grain of salt. testsubject: He claimed the hit on BH. There hasn't been a counter claim, and the KP doesn't work out any way that would give scum a possible claim or reason to claim. That leads me to believe his claim is truthful, and therefore he's town for now. VE: Claimed that he took a hit night 1. His play hasn't made him look clearly town though, and I'm quite unsure of what his alignment is based on only behaviour. He had a big fight with Wade though, who flipped scum, so I think that's a point in his favour. I'd leave him out of potential mafia suspects for now, but I don't think he's necessarily someone town wants around endgame unless he really steps up his play so that it's obvious he's town. Otherwise he's too hard to read. WaveofShadow: He claimed detective, and supposedly got a read on TPS night 1, and nothing night 2. My behaviour read wasn't towards town before the claim though. Mechanics suggest he's town based on the claim, and Ace read him as town too. Look into him again if he's alive end game though. Note: If there actually are any third parties in the game or the game goes very late, don't forget to look into the people who are read as town mostly because of roleclaims. Roleclaims aren't irrefutable, and don't make someone confirmed. Pool of harder to read people (scum in here): glurio, zarepath, Trancestorm, cosmicomics, DoYouHas, Darthpunk, geript Trancestorm: He asked for a replacement and said he's not playing anymore. I wouldn't spend too much effort on him until he gets replaced. Otherwise, he's gonna be modkilled. For what it's worth, he seems like he's just a bit of a sheep more than scum. Not too sure though. Cosmicomics: Looking at him again, I'm reading him somewhat as scum. My first initial read was new town, but reading a little more closely, it looks more scum motivated. He tunnels VE, which gives him something of an excuse for making "helpful" looking posts. Then, he makes a case on Good Karma based on only his reaction to the Ace flip, which would set him up nicely for later days. He also throws a vote on me without any real justification today. That leads me to think he's more likely to be scum than town. Zarepath: I'm leaning more on the scum side for him right now. He posts a lot of fluff, a lot of summarizing or what's happening in the thread, not really pushing his cases too hard. He's recently been saying we need to do a lot of analysis without posting any of his own, really. He's been tunneling Cosmicomics for a while, and is voting him today. I don't find that contradictory to my read, because firstly, Cosmicomics has not once responded to Zarepath's case that I can find. That seems really weird to me, because if Zarepath was town, I don't think Cosmicomics would just sit around while a townie tunneled him. If it's his team mate, though, it makes more sense, and it makes sense he's voting him today, because then he won't be on the townie wagon of the day. Glurio: This guy just seems to be following his own tune. His reads are meandering and he seems to just be doing his own thing. I read this as town, because he's not very directed, and has been mostly left alone by others. His posts show an easy to follow train of thought that also gets me to lean towards town on him. Darthpunk: I lean towards scum on him. I find it hard to go back through his posts, because there's way too many to get a coherent picture. His reaction to the Ace lynch gets me to think he's scum though. On March 21 2013 15:49 DarthPunk wrote: Yeah I honestly didn't think VE would be tied on 7 votes. I don't like the ace lynch but I like the VE lynch less. ##unvote ##vote: Ace Ugh this whole situation is fucked. On March 21 2013 16:02 DarthPunk wrote: Shameful. We should have lynched goodkarma. On March 21 2013 16:05 DarthPunk wrote: Funny that you promised a mega case post and then tunnelled a townie to death instead. He says he doesn't want to lynch Ace, but does it anyways, making it so that a last minute vote on VE is less likely to happen. He says he likes the Ace lynch better than the VE lynch. Then, he shifts blame onto VE and insinuates he's scum based on how he acted leading up to the lynch. However, that was exactly the same as how VE had acted when DP voted. So, this looks pretty scummy to me. You make a vote to ensure the Ace lynch, and say you like it better than a VE lynch, then you make a post calling out VE because he tunneled Ace, but only after Ace flipped town, and after you said you didn't like the VE lynch. DoYouHas: I lean towards town on him. His posts show a decent town mindset. His shifts in reads seem organic, and not like they're being motivated as much by what's happening in the thread. This gets me to lean towards town on him. Geript: I'm sort of null on him. He has a decent amount of setup speculation and stuff in his posts that reads as null. He seems like he's interacting decently with the thread. For someone with a lot of posts though, I haven't really noticed him at all this game, so that puts me off a bit. Someone to look more closely at in the future or pressure. I'll admit I haven't read that closely into DoYouHas, Geript and DP, because they've had low thread presence so I haven't noticed them that much while just reading the thread normally, and they have a ton of posts so that makes it hard to go back and read through them. So, these three reads are based more on skims of their filters and what stuck out to me. The DP things sticks out quite badly as scummy though, so I feel it would be enough to use for additional pressure regardless of what else he's done. I think it's a pretty big slip. People to really watch out for: Kitaman: Kita's play has actually been pretty passive. He's made cases, but has never really pushed them that much. Day 1, he was going after GoodKarma, couldn't get traction, and just sort of went, "Oh well, I'll vote for GreY then I guess", with only a line of explanation that doesn't even say he's scummy. The same thing happened on Day 2, where he made a case on WaveofShadow, but it was deflected by him claiming DT. So, he just votes for me, but doesn't really make too big of a push and only had a couple posts where he doesn't even strongly call me scum: On March 21 2013 09:02 kitaman27 wrote: I'd support Wiggles or GK as an alternative, but I don't have the couple hours I'd need to put a case together and push a lynch at the moment. On March 21 2013 09:32 kitaman27 wrote: As for today's lynch, Wiggles needs to get in here and tell us who he is voting for. He obviously shouldn't still be voting you, based on the reasons I just mentioned. I want to hear who he wants to lynch. I'd be willing to vote for him if we have the votes. On March 21 2013 09:34 kitaman27 wrote: I also didn't like how Wiggles responded to my case about Wave. Rather than pushing the idea himself, he asked for my confirmation to elaborate for him. On March 21 2013 11:14 kitaman27 wrote: I'm swapping my vote to him since he doesn't seem to care at all about what happens tonight. He uses very neutral language, saying he'd support the lynch, and that he'd be willing to vote if there's enough votes. He says he didn't like one thing I did, and then finally votes me not because he says he thinks I'm scum, but because I'm not around. For someone he wants to kill, and who he voted for, he does a good job of not really explaining his read or of ever calling me scum. He did the same thing with the GreYMisT vote. He doesn't push his reads strongly, he doesn't call the people he switches to later scum, and he just votes on whatever the wagon is at the end of the day His passive play combined with the lack of thread interaction and seeming apathy towards the lynch leads me to believe he doesn't have town's best interests in mind, and is scum. Town should watch out for him, because his posts are nicely structured and he makes nice "cases" on people that he doesn't end up pushing. So, there will probably be people who'd oppose killing him based on the form of his posts rather than the content. I agree that I need to die. I am a liability in late game because I've been playing badly and my scum reads have been shit so far. I need to get shot though, not lynched, because a lynch on me is wasted as I have no probability of flipping scum. I thought someone might shoot me Night 2, but no one did. I don't like the way the Day has gone so far, because everyone is sitting on their hands and not talking because they think I'm scum. I find that pretty dumb, because you're basically giving mafia a free round of kills. If you're going to lynch me, leave your vote on me, but at least talk about who else you think is scum, because I am going to flip green. If you don't talk, you're completely wasting your time. I'm going to vote Cosmicomics because he is the only alternative wagon to me, and I read him as more likely to be scum than town. If I end up getting lynched, I apologize for my poor reads, and want to say, good luck, and have fun. | ||
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I don't really feel like fighting against my lynch, because I feel a lot of it is based off of activity, and I've never had any luck arguing against people when that's the basis before. For some reason, people equate not posting with being apathetic, and not having super strong scum-reads in a game full of spam and bullshit as being not useful. Most of my reads are based off the people who I feel are town in this game, rather than having a lot of strong scum reads, so that made it impossible to write a bunch of cases just to appease people. For example, what are the points you bring up against me? You say I don't care? That comes out because I'm not in the thread posting. But maybe I'm just busy too? Same thing with half your points about the Ace case. The first half of the cycle, I was waiting for Ace to post. How could I make a case based on Ace not following through with his promises and trying to get the town away from scumhunting earlier in the cycle, when he had just replaced in that night? That would be idiotic, so how's it part of your case? Same thing with the timing of my case. You say I "wait" until late to post it, but that's just because I wasn't at home to post it. I got home, wrote it, and posted it. It was near the end of the cycle, but that's when I had time to post it. After a bunch of bad experiences with people being schedule nazis, I've decided I am no longer giving an accounting of my time to people in a mafia game. I'll post when I'm around to and feel like it, and if people don't like that, that's too bad. Unfortunately, the timing didn't work well in this game, and people interpreted it as being opportunistic or delaying. I'll give you the point about not analyzing Hopeless1der, but that was mostly because he read more as town than scum, but it was day 1, so it's not like it's that hard to do as scum. I didn't want to shoot my own case in the foot by saying, "Oh, yeah, that guy Ace replaced looked kind've townie by the way". I was convinced on Ace, so I didn't care about Hopeless. As for you, your posts about GreYMisT, you only have this to say about him before you switch over: I'm going to throw my vote your way to get things started. ##Vote goodkarma I'm also suspicious of GreYMisT. I'll wait to post about him until later since he promised a contribution when he is less busy today. Would I have fallen for your "trap"? I find this scummy. You call him suspicious. You don't call him scum, you don't "express a scum read on him several times", that's a lie. You say that he's suspicious, and you call his trap scummy, but that's really it. You question GreY about the "trap", but you never push it past asking him once. When GreY doesn't answer, you just let it slide completely. You weren't interested in sounding him out or in actually getting an answer, you don't pressure him besides just asking once. It's a very passive style of making a post with a pro-town point or idea, but not following up on it. And lastly, of course I'm voting for my own survival. I've already expressed that I need to die. I'd just much rather be shot than waste a lynch. I posted my reads so you would have them for after I flip. You can interpret that how you want. | ||
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On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote: We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb. But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand. I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz. On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote: zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved. On March 21 2013 02:24 Ace wrote: can you explain how that worked? And if there is a recruiting 3rd party I doubt we'd only have 1 vigi/way to kill at night. An unlynchable anti-town player is all kinds of issues. | ||
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Also, there's a difference between speculating, and saying, "LYNCH VE, HE'S AN INVINCIBLE THIRD PARTY" I'm done, please kill me. | ||
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On March 24 2013 06:07 TestSubject893 wrote: You're not doing yourself any favors here. I don't know why people keep posting lists of town reads. There is no town-motivated reason to do it. After reading this, I feel good about you being the likely lynch ##Unvote: cosmicomics ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles The town motivation is you have it for after I flip. That was pretty easy. | ||
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Well, if we were to assume that scum have a recruiter, then I think that VE being recruited into scum could work. It would make sense if scum tried to shoot him N1 as a town vet, he lived, claimed vet, and then scum recruited him. With how much VE kept bringing up the shot he was supposed to have taken, I could see this fitting in. That was one of the major things that VE kept using in his defense, that he took a shot. If it wasn't VE, I probably would have killed him for it, as pushing that you were supposed to have taken a shot that much would imply that there was something off about it. So, if I was the scum team, recruiting a player who survived a shot could make a lot of sense as they get a lot of free cred. I don't think it had anything to do with BH though, unless it was a one time use, because GK flipped town. So in this scenario, VE would be a townie who took a shot, and then was recruited by scum. I'm not sure if that's what you were thinking or not. If you had something else in mind as far as conspiracy theories go, let me know, it's fun. re: Glurio Basically, reading Glurio, I got the impression that he was newer to the game. Looking at his history right now, that seems like a decently fair assessment. Now, when I read his posts, I don't see any hint of coaching or direction from other players. If he was scum, I would think he would be being directed by his scum team. For example, on the first day, he goes after Sandro after he made two posts. I don't think a scum team would let one of their members do something like that, because it's pretty scummy and draws a lot of attention to yourself, attacking a player with two posts, and one who is a high profile player. There's a whole lot of stuff like that in his filter, where he just sort of does whatever and acts however he feels like, that doesn't feel at all like he has a scum team behind him or someone telling him what to do. Other than that, his train of thought is pretty apparent. He says who he thinks is scummy, and then later on, you'll see mention of the same person again with something like a vote. Also, he isn't careful about his reads. For example, he votes WoS and calls him out, WoS claims later, and this is the post he unvotes with: On March 21 2013 05:47 glurio wrote: Ok i believe WoS's claim and unvote him. There's absolutely zero covering or softening. I would expect a scum player would try to make the transition slower, and make some long winded post saying about how they just only believe WoS, or that they still have their eye on him, or something to imply that they're reluctant to unvote their scum read. Here, he just unvotes him, simple as that. His posting seems quite honest to me, there's no politicking behind it, or trying to make himself look good. Same thing with his reads post today. He just blatantly says, "Here's two guys who flipped town and their scum reads, I'm going to look at these people. I agree with these ones, and not these ones". I think a scum player would be more careful to make his reads look original, or at least not like he was blatantly using dead town players as a starting point. So, my read on Glurio comes mostly from the tone and style of his posts. It doesn't feel like he's being deceptive about what he's doing, and it doesn't feel like he has a scum team pulling his strings. He's not working towards some scum master goal, he's just sort of doing his own thing and posting stuff to explain where his head's at each day. Does that make sense? | ||
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@ryu: Is there anything else you'd like to ask me or have me clarify before I hang? | ||
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Ok, if I could just flip any three players I wanted right now. It would probably be something like: Kitaman VE Cosmicomics or DP Kitaman for reasons stated, Cosmicomics/DP for another scum suspect, and then VE because he's one of the biggest question marks in the game. | ||
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GG, Good Luck, and Have Fun! | ||
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Question though, for people in general: Why is low posting activity linked with being scum? I'm not going to apologize for my activity, but it was silly seeing people go from calling me town to saying I'm scum because I couldn't post for a ~24 hour period. Somehow not posting got linked with being apathetic, which I don't believe to be true. I'm not saying that's the only reason people called me scum, but it was definitely a running theme, and I didn't really get it. It's also impossible to defend against without getting into off-topic arguments that serve no purpose. Nice to see that my reads this game ended up ok, though. Shame I screwed up so badly day 2, I think things could have been different. I ended up having a whole bunch of town reads, but not having entirely strong scum reads because I find spammy people very hard to read, and I found a lot of the posters to be very forgettable when reading through the thread, so that made things harder for me. | ||
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