You've said why shz's vote on you is weak, and I agree, but why does it make him scum? What is his scum motivation?
Newbie Mini Mafia XXXIII - Page 2
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You've said why shz's vote on you is weak, and I agree, but why does it make him scum? What is his scum motivation? | ||
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Comments on Corazon? | ||
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On Corazon, I'm focusing more on his defensiveness and excuse-making as reasons for why he is scum. Do you agree that the things I have highlighted in his posts are more likely coming from mafia? | ||
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On December 20 2012 00:22 Mocsta wrote: Im dead regardless. End of Night 1, I suspect I will be shot. Hopefully we have a medic that likes me *sigh* Is there a particular reason you posted this? | ||
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On December 20 2012 01:21 Mocsta wrote: Yeah, I thought it was pretty clean cut. Perhaps not. Based on the current status quo, I think its reasonable to assume I will be mafia killed Night 1, unless given some form of protection? I was not asking for a medic to step forward, and will not ask them to step forward. [If exists] Asking for protection this early is not town motivated. Blues can decide what to do by themselves. | ||
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Could you elaborate? Do you think my points against him are invalid? I don't like dragging answers out of you like this. | ||
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I also don't really feel scum from threesr either, for some of the same reasons. He's said things that draw attention to himself unnecessarily and is at least posting often (if not very helpfully). Possibility of scum, but not someone we should lynch today. | ||
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On December 20 2012 03:47 FatChunk wrote: [b]@threesr[b] In a game where opinion and discussion are encouraged, you seem to be quite reluctant to contribute. Your respones to questions are often dodged or ill-presented out of laziness, and I think this is not acceptable. You have to be able to develop your reasoning, and the type of posts you create paint a picture of someone trying to get the attention off himself. My attempt to be consistent is important because as town we need to structurally build arguments and if those compounding arguments contradict one another, we cannot make a logical FoS or lynch. Without consistency, why did we discuss policy on LAL and lurking? My opinion on corazon is the following: he's relatively new to the game and any form of aggression toward him will be met with a stiff upper lip. I know this because I am new to the game too. Thus my read on him is questionable at best. My read for threesr stands as per my previous posts and is only amlipified by his recent comments. Mocsta's decision to confirm threesr as scum was a little bit hasty and agressive in my eyes, yet also I don't think that mafia would come out so early as to present a confirmed scum. Thus I lean against the vote for Mocsta, and toward lurkers (Sylencia, aquanim, OrangeRemi?) and threesr as a possible lynch. Why is Corazon different from everyone else? You say that he's relatively new, but he's just as new as OrangeRemi or threesr (basically, modkills don't count). Yet you don't have any problem lynching those people, just you don't want to lynch Corazon. You also say that you want to lynch lurkers, but don't include Corazon in that list. Why? | ||
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You talk about head-hunting as if it's a bad thing. It's not. This is a game of head-hunting. If no one hunts, then we don't lynch mafia and we lose. Why does Aqua's vote on you make you think that he's mafia? Who do you think are the scummiest people right now? | ||
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On December 20 2012 05:49 FatChunk wrote: Okay here we go. OrgangeRemi has posted very little in this game so far, so it is difficult for me to answer your first question with him as an example. Corazon is different from O.R. because he actually posted something in a defensive manner and I am explaining what my read is on this, as per your request. Regarding theesr I have expressed my opinion on him. He is different from corazon because his motives, if he were mafia, can more easily be predicted because of the nature of his posting and his quantity of posts as well. He may share similar qualities as Corazon, but he has quite simply posted more than Corazon and supported his arguments. I simply await more posts from corazon to make a more accurate read. Is this sufficient for you? I am sooo sorry that I didnt put corazon in that list - I either omitted him because I presented my thought on him already, or maybe just to bring light to the fact that we need to discuss other lurkers AS WELL AS Corazon. No need to get all angry and defensive (unless you're scum). Now that Corazon has posted more, how do you feel about him? And does anyone else think that the red wording is really weird? | ||
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Corazon Corazon's first post in the thread is odd in that it ignores the questions that everyone else is answering. As a townie, why would you completely ignore the discussion going on and the questions asked to all players? You wouldn't. As scum, however, you might do this to lie low or just because you are nervous as a first-time scum player. On December 19 2012 10:24 cDgCorazon wrote: I think it should be handled on a case to case basis when it comes to lurking. Sometimes it helps when someone just sits back and tries to figure things out instead of discussing every point. If it comes towards the end of the game, maybe the lurker needs to come out of the shadows. However, lying as town is basically team-killing, especially if it gets another townie lynched. However there can be certain circumstances where lying can get a mafia member to lose focus and say something stupid. Thanks for pressing me for an answer I guess, just curious as to why you needed an answer from me =/ After I ask him the questions specifically, he reacts like scum would- surprised and defensive. Town Corazon would realize that I'm simply asking the questions that everyone else had answered to him, but instead he wonders "why I needed an answer from him". This shows a mafia mindset: he views what I'm doing as 'pressure' and is surprised that I am 'pressuring' him out of all people because he knows that he is guilty. On December 19 2012 12:17 cDgCorazon wrote: When I said "lose focus", I meant as in like trying to come out and saying something that would out them as mafia. I admit that it doesn't sound right when I say it, but of course this is my first time on TL Mafia, and it's all theorycrafting for me. He also preemptively defends himself with "the newbie card". This again shows a mafia mindset. He knows that he's guilty, and he thinks that I suspect him, so he tries to defend himself by saying "I'm just a noob" before I even put any real pressure on him. On December 20 2012 05:18 cDgCorazon wrote: Good to know what I go to sleep and when I wake up and finish school my head is on the chopping block. Lovely. If you guys want a better answer to question number 2, you're not going to find it from me. This is my first game of Mafia on TL, and I'm still not sure of the strategies that scum would use to infiltrate the town. If I had to say anything, it would just be acting like the townies, but more cautious of accusations and trying to stay just enough out of the spotlight where they can be an influence on the game, but won't attract too much attention from the town. I've never been one to jump to conclusions, and to vote someone out on Day 1 just by character analysis sounds like a really silly idea to me. I was going to push for a no-lynch vote, but unfortunately when you're being head-hunted, you need to fight back. For this reason: Vote##: Aquanim He was the first one to start the campaign to lynch me, even when there are people who haven't posted at all. If he's already jumping on me, which one of you will be next if you lynch me? He started an environment of head-hunting that is just going to lead to more town lynches, and ultimately a scum victory. Sorry bud, it's self-defense. This post, his first one after his inital opening posts, is a blatant OMGUS. His "self-defense" justification is total BS. Voting someone does not defend you in any way at all. Corazon is looking for any way to park his vote on a lurker that he thinks is an easy mislynch. On December 20 2012 06:43 cDgCorazon wrote: Are you really going to try to use that as a basis of lynching me? It's a weak argument, you're just hoping to get a lucky lynch so the scum have one less person to worry about. Even if you aren't scum, you are toxic to this town and should be lynched. Soon after, Corazon of course switches over to another easy mislynch, threesr. A big component of his justification for voting threesr is simply that he's making sarcastic replies: not a scum trait. In this quote, he blatantly says that he is fine lynching a townie. Literally what is said: "Even if you aren't scum, you ... should be lynched." Townies do NOT want to lynch other townies. Ever. This shows yet again a scum mindset from Corazon; he looks for any excuse to justify his vote on threesr and push the wagon along. I'd also just like to point out how he starts off being strongly against "head-hunting" but then soon aggressively attacks threesr. He is now "head-hunting" of the same d1 posts that he was initially opposed to using. FatChunk All of FatChunk's posting is limited to two categories: either useless fluff about "atmospheres for scum to thrive" or responses to direct questions asked of him. He has long posts, but most of it is mindless drivel about nothing. Why? Because he wants to look like he's contributing without doing any actual scumhunting. On December 19 2012 22:44 FatChunk wrote: I see your point regarding the reason for lurking. Upon reflection, I agree that lurking should be discouraged and if apparent, you will be questioned and proded. I think its very simple, as Mocsta said: lurking is not a free pas to fly under the radar. I also agree with Kickstart regarding lynching scum leads of randomly lynching lurkers. This, I feel, is obvious. As far as I understand an environment where mafia thrive is that of uncertainty, confusion. An environment which contains people who have split views, people that are not confident in their stance and can be swayed by logic, reason, should the situation call for it. Threesr did a good job of contradicting views regarding lurking, diverting town chat paths, and the town seems to be talking a little bit but we are dancing around constructive discussion (not to mention the fact that Threesr has been quite inactive recently). Perhaps this is scum behaviour. I understand policies on LAL and lurking needs to be discussed, and most of the tough thinking will come when it`s time to vote by ultimately making a read. This makes it really important to present strong arguments when it comes to FoS because others will base their arguments upon the information you present. I think we should be asking ourselves a few questions (whether to find scum or to eliminate uselss town), who is contributing constructively to discussion and who is simply causing the town to get hung up on lesser-than-top-priority thoughts and ideas. Top priorities, to me, are: establishing a wagon using a strong argument, reading into feedback and responses after suspicion has been vocalized, and developing an opinion (certainties are non-existen in this game, right?). The town atmosphere seems to be good so far and this is good for finding scum: perhaps we should start prodding the lurkers and advocates of lurking. I say this because inactivity seems to be common, and as we have all agreed, uncontributing town is useless and detrimental to town goals, whether they are mafia or town. My read is currently for Threesr, but am open to discussion. Would liek to hear more from him regarding lurking and why HE thinks it can be benificial for town to allow. ##Vote: theesr His vote post, prefaced with a lot of fluff to hide the lack of content, provides no real justification for voting threesr. He's just looking for an excuse to park his vote on the least controversial player to lynch at that time. Mafia motivation is of course to push what I see as the easy mislynch of a generally not liked townie. On December 20 2012 05:49 FatChunk wrote: Okay here we go. OrgangeRemi has posted very little in this game so far, so it is difficult for me to answer your first question with him as an example. Corazon is different from O.R. because he actually posted something in a defensive manner and I am explaining what my read is on this, as per your request. Regarding theesr I have expressed my opinion on him. He is different from corazon because his motives, if he were mafia, can more easily be predicted because of the nature of his posting and his quantity of posts as well. He may share similar qualities as Corazon, but he has quite simply posted more than Corazon and supported his arguments. I simply await more posts from corazon to make a more accurate read. Is this sufficient for you? I am sooo sorry that I didnt put corazon in that list - I either omitted him because I presented my thought on him already, or maybe just to bring light to the fact that we need to discuss other lurkers AS WELL AS Corazon. So I ask him a few questions about his reads, and he responds with this. Read that last paragraph. There is absolutely NO reason that a town FC should be taking my questions this personally. He responds to my reasonable questioning very sarcastically and defensively: something a town player would have no reason to do. As scum however, FC is getting nervous and tries to throw off my questioning aggressively. On December 20 2012 07:38 FatChunk wrote: You think my reasoning is weak? Let me fix this. Your answer to the question, "why should lurkers be allowed?" was: That doesn't seem to be a strong argument, yet you constantly refer to yourself as having answered all questions directed towards you. You agree that lurking obviously hurts the town, then you GUESS that it MAY help the town. In my opinion, it's not worth the risk, especially in a game of noobs where posting mafia will make mistakes. When you decide on lurking policy, you do it to pull lurking townies out of the shadows so they can contribute in any way they can, and mafia so they can make mistakes. Then you proceed to FoS Mocsta because he's trying to be "moderator" (your logic is that if town talks too much, they're mafia, and if lurkers lurk, they MAY be town?), Vote Mocsta, unvote mocsta, vote me, unvote me, vote corazon, unvote corazon, vote me, etc. What does this accomplish apart from chaos, confusion? And how can you educatedly possibly change your vote 3 times within... 2 hours (I may be exaggerating)? If theesr isnt mafia, then at least hes not helpful as a townie. These are a couple of reasons for my vote. I would be happy to reconsider if you give explanations to divert my suspicion. And of course, FatChunk is also fine lynching threesr as town. Even though there is still no reason for townies to want to lynch townies, FC will take any justification that he can get. As I said at the top, I'd like everyone's thoughts on these two. | ||
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I am curious as to why you believe that a town Corazon flip would mean that threesr is scum. | ||
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On December 20 2012 09:50 OmniEulogy wrote: Theesr has been pushing him the most, also already getting a scummy read from him but because I believe Corazon is scum without a doubt I'm forced to believe Theesr is just playing town with a really bad mindset of lurking and not contributing. If he latched onto Corazon because he realized he would be extremely easy to put him under suspicion. (followed by Corazon actually stating he's Mafia) I can't really see Corazon being town but if he is and has just made every mistake he could then my reason behind Theesr being shitty town would disappear and he would become my #1 scum read instead of #1 shitty town He's tried to vote for 3 people in quick succession without any real reasons. Or at least he didn't explain them because he doesn't like to... so if Corazon isn't scum I believe Theesr is trying to throw us in multiple directions at once and just hoping something sticks. Luckily for him something did and I'm willing to believe it's just bad town play. Here's where we disagree. I don't see a first time scum player doing as much crazy stuff as threesr has been doing. As scum threesr had no reason to say things like "I'm find with lurking" or to do something like switch his vote three times. Those things attract negative attention to him and don't help push a mafia agenda at all. People say things like "He's causing confusion", but there hasn't really been any confusion caused. I think it's far more likely that he's just a townie who doesn't really know what he's doing. | ||
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We should be lynching the player who is most likely to flip scum, not based on any information we might gain. We can look at association stuff after the flip, but we want to focus on lynching scum before. Based solely on who will flip scum, who do you want to lynch and can you move your vote there? | ||
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Our objective as town is to lynch mafia. What we should not be doing is lynching for information instead of lynching mafia. The information gained from a flip is not great enough that we should lynch a townier player. If you look at what shz's post actually says, there's very little actual conclusions that could be drawn. Most of it is just "x is possible scum". All of it is just worrying about the d2 lynch, which we should do on d2 instead of now. I dislike your post saying that we should "expect a town lynch". Good towns can find scum d1. Good players can be correct in their reads with over "40%" certainty. Your post reads like you're not going to even try to find scum. Who do you want to lynch right now? @Kickstart Come on, you have to do better than that. You're the most experienced player here and you haven't said anything for 24h. What do you think about my cases on Corazon/FC? | ||
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