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On November 21 2012 22:47 strongandbig wrote: So in light of my recently deciding to live, let me ask a framing question
Does it look to anyone else like DP and Djo are setting up for an endgame 1v1? I mean, like they're assuming I'll get lynched and then they'll have to argue which of the two of them is the last lynch?
I suppose this is possible if the two of them are both townies who have town reads on me. But it also makes sense for scum to be doing right now, since he'll presumably have to face a M/LYLO with iamperfection and/or kickstarter who both have really good town cred right now.
So how do we decide if it's "they're both townies who have town reads on me" versus "one of them is a townie with a town read on me, and one of them is scum"? Personally, I would put a lot of weight on the fact that djodref has been saying I'm one of his top scum reads for pretty much the entire game, but now he seems to be assuming that he needs to deal with a 1v1 vs darthpunk at L/MYLO.
@ S&B
Regarding DP, I might have some confirmation bias against him, but his case against me was full of confirmation bias and twisting some of my statements (i.e. the Kickstart part), so it doesn't hold, at the exception of the utter lack of scumhunting in my tread, which I recognize. He is also jumping at everything I post so I guess he really wants mislynch me as soon as possible, regardless of his alignment, but I take this more as a scum tell than a town tell.
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On November 21 2012 22:47 strongandbig wrote: So in light of my recently deciding to live, let me ask a framing question
Does it look to anyone else like DP and Djo are setting up for an endgame 1v1? I mean, like they're assuming I'll get lynched and then they'll have to argue which of the two of them is the last lynch?
I suppose this is possible if the two of them are both townies who have town reads on me. But it also makes sense for scum to be doing right now, since he'll presumably have to face a M/LYLO with iamperfection and/or kickstarter who both have really good town cred right now.
So how do we decide if it's "they're both townies who have town reads on me" versus "one of them is a townie with a town read on me, and one of them is scum"? Personally, I would put a lot of weight on the fact that djodref has been saying I'm one of his top scum reads for pretty much the entire game, but now he seems to be assuming that he needs to deal with a 1v1 vs darthpunk at L/MYLO.
The reason why I assuming a L/MYLO with DP is because I don't think that you are going to flip scum, DP has more chances than you do, but I don't see how I can convince everybody else, especially Kickstart and Hopeless, that you are not tomorrow lynch.
Do you honestly think that we could change Kickstart disposition at your regard ?
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Why I think that S&B is town
My first reason is that I think that the last scum is Darthpunk. I realized that it was likely to be the case thanks to this post from Clarity + Show Spoiler +On November 20 2012 22:58 Clarity_nl wrote: Darth, this isn't snb's meta for town either. All his contributions are very timed with when he's in the spotlight. All that leaves is your gut.
Scummy about your current behavior is sudden emotional involvement in the game, where you showed none before, you have a scum read on me and djo. I'm town and I have a townread on djo. The fact that you think snb is town. This is all a smart way to go about things as scum. As snb will likely be lynched tomorrow if not today, so it behooves scum to keep him alive if possible.
Hopeless is confirmed, bh is confirmed, iamp is town, kickstart is town, djo is neutral, you are neutral You look scummier than djo, currently, because your reads have been the polar opposite of mine all game.
Like I said, I'm focusing on getting snb lynched today and I will do my research in the nightcycle. So that's all I got. . At that time, DP was the only one with a town read on S&B. Mainly because of meta but it would also be in interest of the scum to keep him alive, because if he is indeed town, he is the scummiest town among us.
S&B is starting to get wary of BH during D1, and his reasons stand correct in my opinion, he then proceeds to tunnel BH and uses the setup extrapolation to confound him definitively. These things, I did them as town, and I believe that he did them as town as well.
I've realized that he gave himself what was really incriminating in his posts during D1 by himself in this post. I don't see a mafia player playing like S&B during D1... you should start to get lazy and trolly later if you start to fall apart. But you don't do that from the fucking beginning. What is really suspicious is his reference to Hapa as the "scummiest player" without pursuing him. His few interactions with him don't look good as well. But he preemptively posts a defense against this in this gigantic post here + Show Spoiler +On November 17 2012 06:36 strongandbig wrote:this post took me like more than half an hour to write so yall best actually read it.I go through my filter and look at stuff. Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:01 strongandbig wrote: if zb was scum he would have made a much longer post
##vote: hapahauli
im down with that iamperfection thinkamajig this post makes me look bad. this would be a good argument for me being scum. scum love to vote for their buddies early. In reality, I just thought iamperfection's argument seemed kinda good about the weirdness of Hapahauli's first vote/minicase/whatever-thing.
Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:02 strongandbig wrote: also fuck you zboson i wanted to fakeclaim miller as vt since then people couldn't say "oh he's fakeclaiming miller must mean he's scum" when i fakeclaim miller as scum
but now if i did that people would be like "two millers what are the odds" and then probably lynch you so no good on that one Ahhh, the infamous "accidental claim" post. Seriously if you guys think this was a good idea for a scum player to post, you are not very good scum players. I'm not a very good scum player either, but I'm better than that. The post itself contains the entirety of my motivation. There was one time when I fakeclaimed miller as scum (actually I was traitor, but I showed up as scum to detectives), and ever since then I've been looking for an opportunity to fakeclaim miller as town. I want to be able to claim miller more often as scum, but since the odds are so small of any single player ever actually being a miller, I would first have to establish a background of claiming miller as both alignments. I've actually thought a lot about this, there are some good arguments in favor of fakeclaiming miller as town if you have a lot of time to spend on a game and you think you can make your towniness clear through your actions. It would give town a focus of discussion early on day 1 when they're often aimless, and it would remove you from the list of people that DTs need to think about checking, making their lives easier. The reason I post all those thoughts is to give you some idea where I was coming from. I've thought a lot about the "miller" part, so when I saw zboson claim miller, it triggered me to think along those lines again. The "VT" part really didn't come into it at all. I had no idea at first what debears was talking about when he said I'd claimed something.
One other thing I did a lot day 1 was to point out what I thought were bad arguments. I like doing this as town for a couple of reasons - mostly that it's fun, but I also think that criticizing bad arguments and trying to get them pushed out of the town discourse is helpful. It avoids people starting to build cases and reads on bad foundations, and it stops people from building up a "position" that they can refer back to later unless they have something that's actually worth saying. Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:48 strongandbig wrote:On November 13 2012 10:01 debears wrote:On November 13 2012 09:59 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 09:50 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 09:47 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 09:44 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 09:41 Z-BosoN wrote:Hello, sirs. First of all I´d like to claim miller. There are two very viable options now, regarding my alignment on this game. I am fakeclaiming as mafia. I am in fact a miller. My claim here would be fairly risky as scum, and as town it makes more sense to claim so as to not waste detective checks on me, but of course this is WIFOM. I hope to show my alignment in this game through brilliant, stellar townie play, and hope town uses this factor and this factor alone when scouting my alignment. The only thing I hope to achieve with this claim is to not be checked by an eventual cop, as that check will be guaranteed to turn red. That being said, I look forward to playing this game. Lot's of familiar faces around, and I am curious to hear more from people I haven't played yet. Regarding DarthPunk, don't worry, if he's scum, I'll figure it out HI ZB <3. Yeah ZB will figure me out If I am scum, and Vice Versa. Hapa will figure marv out and marv will figure everyone out. GG scummers But what if me, ZB, and marv are all scum o_O Then Blazinghand, Debears and I will rip you all a new arsehole. <3 Oh noes! Well fortunately I'm not scum. + Show Spoiler +On November 13 2012 09:55 iamperfection wrote:On November 13 2012 09:52 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote: i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. Woah woah hold-up. I'm not liking how you're trusting this claim right away. Claiming miller is a pretty much a riskless play here. We don't know how many millers are in the setup, and as far as I'm concerned, the claim is null until Z-Bo proves otherwise. its what i think so whatever. Zbos scum is gone put himself out there like that i dont think so. It's not "so whatever" - I'm pretty skeptical how you're so willing to think Z-Bo is town off what looks to me like a completely null action. Hapa, last time you did that little spoiler trick (GsL III), you were the role that you put in the spoiler. Here, you put bowser. Now why would you put bowser out of all the scum roles? It seems to me like you were actively thinking of bowser, which you shouldn't be if you are town. I would expect you to put a town role in that spoiler this is stupid Here's one example. Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 11:04 strongandbig wrote:On November 13 2012 11:02 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 11:00 marvellosity wrote:On November 13 2012 10:59 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 10:56 marvellosity wrote:On November 13 2012 10:55 Hapahauli wrote: Oh goddamnit I got sniped by the "kenpachi rule" apparently, but my post still stands since he had his vote on me at the time of the post I reference. this makes no sense. the post was stupid, and that's irrelevant of your alignment. Why doesn't it make sense? I'm just saying that SnB changed his vote to someone else before I made my vote on him (in which I reference his vote on me). Perhaps an unnecessary clarification, but it should make sense. so what if he had his vote on you? the post he commented on was stupid, what does him having his vote on you have anything to do with that? Because it's strange. He was far too willing to dismiss the argument of someone who was taking his side on an issue. He didn't attempt to explain anything about his reads in that post. lol i didnt attempt to explain anything about my reads in a post that consisted entirely of "this is stupid" am i explaining my reads in this post bro? Here's another example. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 03:53 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 01:01 Blazinghand wrote: Marv uf you think Im scum vote me if nog stop beig a babu and vot ZB oh yeah I meant to quote this post that's some great logic right there - vote for me or vote with me. normally i'd find that super scummy but coming from bh it's only mildly scummy There's another one. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 22:57 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 14:46 debears wrote: On iamp
Alright guys, I really need someone to give me a good answer on this question, which everyone has failed to do
Why would town iamp 1) Switch his vote, agreeing with the case of someone he thought was scummy 30 minutes earlier after 1 case?
you idiot I already explained this TL uses military time it was 12 hours and 30 minutes And again. This one I had to do twice. There's a reason why it's important to tell people when their arguments are bad. As well as fun. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 22:43 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 11:21 thrawn2112 wrote: I wanna lynch darthpunk. I remember his town play as somewhat aggressive and stubborn, and what I'm seeing from him in this game is completely different from that impression. I still think the whole snb 4 votes early on thing was a little silly and probably had scum behind it.
I can get behind this part (bolding by me) On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote: I am just throwing my vote around trying to see what's up. I think I explained both my votes on him adequately maybe you disagree with the reasons and that is fine.
The reason I unvoted S&B the first time was that I voted for Clarity for what I perceived to be an easy jump onto an easy wagon. He gave his explanation, I unvoted and then I re-voted S&B. You unvoted snb, who you originally voted for because of a dumb reason, in order to vote for clarity who had voted for snb because of a dumb reason? man though when will people start to realize - "you were inconsistent" is not sufficient to establish that someone is scum. You either have to show that their inconsistency has a scum motivation or you have to show that from a particular player, being inconsistent is a scum tell based on their meta. Townies change their mind too! Just saying "scum like to be inconsistent" is not sufficient! Scum motivations for being inconsistent are things like (-) going along with whatever the thread sentiment is at the time (-) buddying whoever has thread control (-) appearing to contribute without having to take strong positions (-) switching off of scum buddies or onto strong townies when a bandwagon goes further than they expected You can't just say "lol an inconsistency! Scum!" You have to do quite a bit more work than that. On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:I cannot find the townie reasoning behind several things S&B has posted thus far. I cannot reconcile using WIFOM about his scum game as townie behaviour and I do not buy the too scummy to be scum shit.
I am far from certain about him. But if he is town I want him to shape up. I don;t like using FoS's anymore so a vote it is.
Specifically, this is what i'm talking about with dp's tone. This... On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:@blazinghand. Guess I am bad.
...is not what I expect from dp. I expect him to be argumentative and to challenge anyone who accuses him of being wrong. I don't like his votes/unvotes for snb or the explanations for the votes. His last voting action was an unvote, and the next 8 posts contain mainly fluff and jokes, not much information that's pertinent to the thread. this is better - at least it's actually a real argument for him being scum. It's fundamentally a meta case, and therefore it would be better with quotes from other games by darthpunk or at least a guide for what other people should look for in his filter in specific games of his, but darthpunk is usually kind of a character so the case is easier to make here. Summary: He took the easy vote on snb and was wishy washy about it (voting then unvoting then voting then unvoting) because he knows the vote looks bad. After voting the first time, he unvoted then challenged clarity for doing the exact same thing that dp himself did (hasty bandwagon voting for snb) and then he unvoted for a final time and his filter after that point contains no scumhunting or any of his reads/thoughts.
##Vote: Darthpunk
The other people that voted for snb during that time were hapa, clarity, and boson. With boson... the miller claim didn't seem to come at the right time to be a scum fakeclaim. I'd expect fake claims to come along much later after everyone has been given a chance to post/claim. Hapa, I'm wary of. BH made a comment along the lines of "whoever voted for snb is bad or scum," and hapa is definitely not bad. But he as well as clarity continued giving reads and interacting with the thread after the snb stuff, while dp has been wishywashy with his vote and not talked about much of anything else. The snb bandwagon grew so quickly that I think it's very likely that there were scum behind it, and dp looks scummiest out of all of them. There was his original voting/unvoting, not following through with any reads afterwards and having a fluffy filter, and being extremely peaceful and not willing to get in fights. That's the exact opposite of town dp.
Bolding by me - these are the central points of this case. This one was sort of an extreme example, because I actually explained why the argument was stupid and bad. It takes a lot of the fun out if I have to explain it. Next thing to explain: the whole Kenpachi rule thing.Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:53 strongandbig wrote: ummmm so let's vote debears
kenpachi rule
##unvote: hapahauli ##vote: debears actually srs this time btw Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 21:57 strongandbig wrote: yo marv you're gonna have to edit out that post about the kenpachi rule
debears is scum tho
in other developments: seriously, I wasn't really thinking too hard about what I posted last night. Believe me or not, I didn't intend to "claim VT" when I made the post in question.
I'm going in to work in a couple hours, I'll read over the thread more carefully. However, here's my unfiltered thoughts atm marv: i hate trying to read marv, apparently someone caught him on meta analysis a game or two ago so I'll have to look that up but it's so much easier just radfielding him bh: thinks i'm town therefore my first reaction is to think he's town lol. i like his case on zboson though. hapa: scummiest of the actual good players in the thread atm
more reading time Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 22:18 strongandbig wrote: but tbh marv the kenpachi rule has plenty of substance behind it and you know it
i just don't like explaining it because once you explain it it stops working.... T_T So I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna say it just once. And I'll probably come back and edit it out after this game is over. Here's how the Kenpachi rule works: Someone claiming VT for no apparent reason attracts scum like a porch light attracts moths. This is for a very good reason. It's exactly the kind of thing that scum players love to attack. Scum players make cases against scummy behavior. They try and find scummy behavior, not scum, and the random unnecessary VT claim is classic "scummy behavior". It doesn't make sense and doesn't help town in the least, but it also doesn't push any scum agenda. (Scum players, especially new ones, often don't like to attack things that actually do help the scum team push their agenda, either because they want to let it keep getting pushed or because they're afraid of being called out for doing similar things themselves). That's one of the key things about the random VT claim - it doesn't actually hurt town in any way. If you think about it, it really doesn't reveal anything about the alignment of the player who makes the claim, since it's almost always optimal play for anyone in any position to claim VT. Actual VTs don't want to get killed by town for fakeclaiming if they claim blue and get found out; blues want to avoid getting roleblocked; and scum don't want to have to back up a blue claim with actions later on in the game. So you learn nothing from the VT claim. It doesn't distract town from actual scumhunting, because there's really very little to be said about it. But it's such a tempting target for scum! It's easy to attack because it's both illogical and unusual. Plus the people doing it are often easy targets, because they will often do other things that don't make sense. So you ask, why wouldn't that be a tempting target for town as well? You have to think about the different motivations between scum and townies. Townies don't just want to point out when someone does something scummy, they want to actually advance their reads, discuss things in a way which creates a productive town atmosphere, etcetera. But scum have the additional motivation of wanting things that they can safely attack or take strong positions on. They get tricked into attacking the random VT claim because it seems like a safe thing for them to attack - there's little chance of the position coming back to bite them later on, because neither they nor their teammates are likely to randomly claim VT, and because "random VT claims are scummy" is a position that is not likely to interact much with the other positions scum has to take throughout the game. So, there's a much stronger motivation for scum to attack a random VT claim than there is for town to do so. Therefore, people who attack a random VT claim are more likely to be scum than an average player. That's the essence of the Kenpachi rule. The way Marv cited it - the first person to attack the random VT claim is always scum - it's obviously stupid. No rule like that holds true in every case, and there's no reason why the first person or the second person or whatever to do something is more likely to be scum. However, when I kept talking about the Kenpachi rule, I was assuming that Marv understood the reasoning behind it and the proper application of it. Maybe he didn't, and he actually thought it was just some kind of mystical guessing rule. But that's what was going on with me when I kept saying "kenpachi rule" to Marv. Basically, I was hoping he would do my work for my and actually either explain why the Kenpachi rule is a real method, or else use the leads it generated to create actual cases.
Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 21:57 strongandbig wrote: yo marv you're gonna have to edit out that post about the kenpachi rule
debears is scum tho
in other developments: seriously, I wasn't really thinking too hard about what I posted last night. Believe me or not, I didn't intend to "claim VT" when I made the post in question.
I'm going in to work in a couple hours, I'll read over the thread more carefully. However, here's my unfiltered thoughts atm marv: i hate trying to read marv, apparently someone caught him on meta analysis a game or two ago so I'll have to look that up but it's so much easier just radfielding him bh: thinks i'm town therefore my first reaction is to think he's town lol. i like his case on zboson though. hapa: scummiest of the actual good players in the thread atm
more reading time here's another post that makes me look bad for a real reason. Randomly throwing suspicion on hapa without providing any reasons. Looks like I'm setting myself up for good distancing in case he flips before me, but doesn't actually create any danger for him. The actual reasoning that led me to write that line was pretty simple. Hapa's posting just wasn't very good. There was the early thing iamperfection caught, and the stupid post of Hapa's attacking me for "not sharing any information about my reads" or whatever (it's above in the section where I call things stupid). And in general, I expect Hapa to be pretty aggressive and frequently wrong, but to do so in a headstrong and confident way with fewer obvious logical flaws. However, I kind of let up on him later when he started emulating his town posting better, like the following post: Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 03:56 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 02:31 Hapahauli wrote:Catching up on my lunch break. Regarding SnB##UnvoteAfter sleeping on it, I'm starting to agree that his play is too far of a deviation from his normal scum play to be scummy. I don't know what he's thinking, but it's much more reckless of a playstyle than I'd expect of scum SnB. (FWIW, the fact that he's continuing this behavior into today makes me think he's an SK or something. It falls into that "townie but really off" type of play that's common with 3rd party roles.)
On November 13 2012 17:42 Clarity_nl wrote:Hapa, this still bothers me. I asked you what you thought about SnB's claim and if you thought it was bad for town, and you answered: On November 13 2012 10:12 Hapahauli wrote: @ Clarity
Well in a theoretical sense yes, but you remember how well that worked with Cheesecake in Newbie XXX right? It's really not that significant IMO. You compared this to Cheese's claim from NMM XXX even though the situations are completely different. The only reason Cheese claimed was because he thought only VT's knew the VT flavor. So he was trying to claim without alerting scum. SnB just outright claimed VT. After I explain why it's different, you basically give me the same answer: On November 13 2012 10:25 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 10:14 Clarity_nl wrote: It's not like he flavor claimed, thinking others didn't know the flavor. How are those situations alike? You don't think it's a weird move for a VT to claim VT day 1? No I don't find it weird. I think it's just a pointless comment that can be made by either alignment. Again, see Mr. Cheesecake's "odd" VT claim time in the Newbie game. Him trusting Z-Bo's claim so up-front is a bit strange, but again, I don't know if it's just bad logic or scum knowing who's who. I haven't seen anything alignment indicative from him yet. The other thing I don't really like is the use of "theoretically yes" and "IMO" Whenever I've seen you post you tend to be direct and with conviction, but not this time. I still believe both situations to be the same - they are both strangely timed VT claims. Cheese's intent to "signal" other townies isn't a significant difference, as both potentially fall into the category of "scum wanting to look less suspicious despite not being suspicious." The situations are not identical by any means, but they're more similar than not. Regardless, I'm not suspicious of SnB anymore so I don't want to dwell on this. Regarding the Z-Boson CaseI really disagree with it. The case is a giant anecdote for how Z-Boson's actions could be scummy rather than why they're scummy. ZB is setting up to look good as a wagon starter (since scum don't like to stick their necks out) and appear to contribute to town, but if you read his astonishingly short filter, it's clear he's not actually helping. He's flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. All of this isn't valid at all hours into D1. All of the stuff described above is completely non-alignment indicative in the early game. Z-Boson has been less active than I'm used to seeing him, but again early D1 caveats. No reason to vote him. Regarding iamperfectionHis sudden flip-flop on Z-Boson is really strange. He goes from strongly trusting Z-Bo's claim early in the game to a vote for really shitty reasons. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=22#434In his vote post, he first picks a fight with BH - odd considering that he's ultimately going to agree with his read. He puts a lot of stock into one of Z-Bo's early D1 postings and early-game banter (meaningless). He then talks about the "iamperfection rule" and another early D1 wishy-washy post. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't for his discussion about the miller claim: I know i said early on that i thought the miller claim was more of a town tell but well i think zbos actions speak louder. WHAT?!?!? Iamperfection had almost no doubt about Z-Bo's motives, and he's willing to do a complete 180 with the above reasoning. Just take a look at his previous stance, made right after Z-Bo's claim: On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote: i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. He immediately trusted Z-Boson without question the second Z-Bo made that claim. Then all of a sudden now he turns around and can doubt the claim he so strongly believed in earlier. It makes no sense to me, and it looks like scum jumping on someone the second they have the reason to. This would be fine if he had a good case, but he just hinges on a couple of early D1 posts and the "iamperfection" rule as opposed to anything substantial. It doesn't help that the rest of his filter reads really artificially confrontational to me. It feels like he's trying to overcompensate for being caught in GSL III for not showing his "bravado" throughout the game. ##Vote iamperfection this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above
One last thing: Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 03:52 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 03:27 debears wrote: .......
Ok reasoning to switch from insta town read to scum read....
When I get back to my comp I will relook at it. I didnt come to the same conclusion but look at the reasoning for his town read, it was also terrible. it was a visceral (no eyes) reaction, the first thing to come out of his gut, just like "oh i guess zboson is town" was the first thing to come out of my gut when he posted it. So he changes from a weak, gut-reaction-based townread to a scum read. It's not like he was hard defending zboson or even really thinking about it in a way that we should be super concerned about, he was just pooping ideas out onto the thread. this is where I explain why hapahauli's case was bad. it was the same case, it was still bad. . Nobody was mentioning this against him in their cases so far. My conclusion is that he is either honest or suicidal but the two consecutive enormous posts he gave us read more honest than suicidal in my eyes.
One other thing is that he doesn't lynch Z-Bo to save himself. If he didn't care that much as scum, he would have conceded on ages imho.
I liked his setup extrapolation but I didn't like how he stayed with his vote parked on BH when it was clear that the setup was MDVCCTT after the death of debears. But that was just personal
Regarding Clarity lynch, I need to look at it again. I didn't like his case so much at the time.
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I need to go to bed, I'll see you before the deadline
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On November 22 2012 09:12 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote: same question to you dp what are your reasons now i dont feel like digging through your filter to figure it out I think he is town for pretty much the exact reason I think you are town. Meta. Some modicum of scumhunting. Meta. The only thing you have over him is that you were pretty heavily involved in the hapa lynch. <3 That being said I have had a town read on S&B for a LONG time. I think Djo only just admitted he had one on him. He had a vote parked on him for a LONG time. Djo is the last scum.
I'm so jealous.. I didn't get my meta case :s
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On November 22 2012 11:52 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 11:49 Kickstart wrote: If djo was jked would he have been able to kill bh? Yes. Because Scum RB takes priority. He get's roleblocked first and then can't jail. That is why when he jailed me and he was roleblocked I recieed no notification. He jailed Djo because he thought he was scum and if he was not roleblocked it would have prevented a nightkill.
As much as it pains me, I second this post.
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On November 22 2012 11:49 Kickstart wrote: If djo was jked would he have been able to kill bh?
@ Kickstart
Did you change your view of S&B ? What do you think of his 2 long posts during D2 ? What do you think of my defense of him ?
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I'm up for a Darthpunk lynch today ! If you guys still want to lynch S&B, please just do it tomorrow, but this is not going to happen, because the game is going to end today when DP dies.
##Vote DarthPunk
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On November 22 2012 11:42 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:On November 22 2012 09:12 DarthPunk wrote:On November 22 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote: same question to you dp what are your reasons now i dont feel like digging through your filter to figure it out I think he is town for pretty much the exact reason I think you are town. Meta. Some modicum of scumhunting. Meta. The only thing you have over him is that you were pretty heavily involved in the hapa lynch. <3 That being said I have had a town read on S&B for a LONG time. I think Djo only just admitted he had one on him. He had a vote parked on him for a LONG time. Djo is the last scum. I'm so jealous.. I didn't get my meta case :s I don't need Meta to know you are scum.
Yet, that's what you mainly used in your cases against Z-Bo, that's what you use to decide that S&B is town. The reason why there is no meta case against me, it's because you cannot write one, because I'm town and you know it.
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On November 22 2012 12:27 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote: I'm up for a Darthpunk lynch today ! If you guys still want to lynch S&B, please just do it tomorrow, but this is not going to happen, because the game is going to end today when DP dies.
##Vote DarthPunk stfu and listen to the perfect one.
Have you seriously read the case I made against DP ? Didn't you see how much biased was the case he made against me ?
Do you think honestly that we are both town and yelling at each other while being wrong about S&B ? DarthPunk is scum and his plan is to get rid of me first then get the easy S&B mislynch at MYLO or LYLO, that's why his opinion on S&B being town and me being scum is so strong since the time he came back to the thread after I raised some doubts about him.
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On November 22 2012 12:29 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote: I'm up for a Darthpunk lynch today ! If you guys still want to lynch S&B, please just do it tomorrow, but this is not going to happen, because the game is going to end today when DP dies.
##Vote DarthPunk also that was scummy as shit it looks like your just trying to beg for your survival as long as possible and i dont like how both of you seem so certain the other one is the final scum.
Yeah, it's a good point and that's why you have to understand that S&B is more likely to be town than DarthPunk.
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EBWOP: and I'm not begging for survival, I would be glad to be mislynched today if it could prove any point against DP, but you guys are too lazy to reconsider S&B even once that you might mislynch him after me in this case.
So, as long as I'm alive, I'm going to push for a DP lynch ! I'm not voting S&B and I'm strongly opposed to it, we have to lynch DP today !
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On November 22 2012 12:47 DarthPunk wrote: The correct play is to lynch S&B today though. As much as it pains me to say it, and as much as I doubt he will flip red.
##Unvote
##Vote:S&B
I am listening to players whom I respect and have often been right where I have been wrong.
Why would it be the correct play ? Why don't you try to convince the other town members that he is town and that I'm scum ?
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On November 22 2012 13:02 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 12:49 Djodref wrote:On November 22 2012 12:47 DarthPunk wrote: The correct play is to lynch S&B today though. As much as it pains me to say it, and as much as I doubt he will flip red.
##Unvote
##Vote:S&B
I am listening to players whom I respect and have often been right where I have been wrong. Why would it be the correct play ? Why don't you try to convince the other town members that he is town and that I'm scum ? Because, as you say he is an easy mislynch at mylo. Both Marv and Blazinghand told us to lynch him and they are much better players than me. I am not so arrogant to think that I cannot be wrong in my read of him ESPECIALLY when that read is in direct conflict with much better players than myself. Also this ruins any plans you had of an easy S&B mislynch at MYLO which makes me happy if he is in fact town and you are scum like I think.
I don't trust the opinions of dead people. That's the lamest excuse to justify a lynch. Marv died after N1 and he missed a big part of this game. BH might be a better player than you but his play was far from stellar during this game. And I know you are a very capable player, especially when it's a matter of pulling off solo victory as mafia.
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On November 22 2012 13:37 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 13:32 Hopeless1der wrote: you quoted him talking to marv, perfect one. We didn't crack the setup until Z-Bo's flip. Even then It could have been a 5T setup with SK removed. I was worried about it. Now I don't have to be. Tell me if BH had survived to MYLO and say Iamp and Hopeless had been killed without BH dying you wouldn't have been worried.
I would have been not be worried at all, I would have voted the other guy without a blink and said GG. Did you download the tool that Keir use to generate this setup ?
I recommend you to go read this page : Keirathi PUBLIC discussion about his setup
BH was 100% confirmed !
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On November 22 2012 13:35 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 13:29 iamperfection wrote:On November 22 2012 13:26 DarthPunk wrote:On November 22 2012 13:14 iamperfection wrote:On November 16 2012 11:44 DarthPunk wrote: Oh. If there is a DT you should check BH.
Why did you suggest this dp you had recently had said this just a bit earlier in the thread On November 16 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote:On November 16 2012 10:32 marvellosity wrote: I am clearly town and a bigger asset (sorry DP) Not offended at all it is true. But you are not clearly town so stop putting that Idea into peoples heads right now. Also. Blazing hand would be fucking insane to fake claim JK day 1 as scum or as fucking SK. he is JK. So Marv as much as you would like to believe he is scum he is not and you are going to have to deal with that and use your 'assets' elsewhere. You came to this conclusion after long spouting off the bh was scum. Then shortly after you suggested a dt check Whats the deal ? Trying to waste the cops investigations ? I was freaking paranoid about a BH fakeclaim. I am actually relieved in a way that he died tonight because it makes things much simpler. I didn't say anything about it earlier because I wanted scum to kill BH like they are supposed to and not have a situation were BH was alive at MYLO and make us all freak out. If he had not died tonight I would probably have said something along the lines of why isn't he dead yet? And started asking the questions that were never asked in my last game. We knew from setup speculation that bh was already the jk... Your paranoia was not justified. no. I read that set-up shit. It was possible that there were only 2 blues and no roleblocker. If there was no roleblocker that would have made a fake JK claim far less risky for scum. Scum BH could have been a goon. Fake claimed RB and lied about being roleblocked for eternity. There were no roleblock claims at all. There was no evidence of a scum RB apart from the word of BH. I was very paranoid about it and I am relieved I no longer have to be.
This post shows that- Either DP doesn't care about all the work S&B and me have put in to figure out the setup because it shows that he might have read it but not understood our conclusions
- Either DP has understood our conclusions but he doesn't acknowledge them because he cannot afford to recognize that we were actively helping town at that time
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On November 22 2012 13:59 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 13:52 Djodref wrote:On November 22 2012 13:35 DarthPunk wrote:On November 22 2012 13:29 iamperfection wrote:On November 22 2012 13:26 DarthPunk wrote:On November 22 2012 13:14 iamperfection wrote:On November 16 2012 11:44 DarthPunk wrote: Oh. If there is a DT you should check BH.
Why did you suggest this dp you had recently had said this just a bit earlier in the thread On November 16 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote:On November 16 2012 10:32 marvellosity wrote: I am clearly town and a bigger asset (sorry DP) Not offended at all it is true. But you are not clearly town so stop putting that Idea into peoples heads right now. Also. Blazing hand would be fucking insane to fake claim JK day 1 as scum or as fucking SK. he is JK. So Marv as much as you would like to believe he is scum he is not and you are going to have to deal with that and use your 'assets' elsewhere. You came to this conclusion after long spouting off the bh was scum. Then shortly after you suggested a dt check Whats the deal ? Trying to waste the cops investigations ? I was freaking paranoid about a BH fakeclaim. I am actually relieved in a way that he died tonight because it makes things much simpler. I didn't say anything about it earlier because I wanted scum to kill BH like they are supposed to and not have a situation were BH was alive at MYLO and make us all freak out. If he had not died tonight I would probably have said something along the lines of why isn't he dead yet? And started asking the questions that were never asked in my last game. We knew from setup speculation that bh was already the jk... Your paranoia was not justified. no. I read that set-up shit. It was possible that there were only 2 blues and no roleblocker. If there was no roleblocker that would have made a fake JK claim far less risky for scum. Scum BH could have been a goon. Fake claimed RB and lied about being roleblocked for eternity. There were no roleblock claims at all. There was no evidence of a scum RB apart from the word of BH. I was very paranoid about it and I am relieved I no longer have to be. This post shows that - Either DP doesn't care about all the work S&B and me have put in to figure out the setup because it shows that he might have read it but not understood our conclusions
- Either DP has understood our conclusions but he doesn't acknowledge them because he cannot afford to recognize that we were actively helping town at that time
Get off your damn High horse. After all that set-up speculation that 'solved' everything you posted this Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 02:20 Djodref wrote:@ S&BWould you agree that if our setup is TTTTT and that BH is SK then he automatically loses this game ? I mean, you have a "confirmed" JK going into MYLO or LYLO, getting role blocked every night with no evidence of any other blue role, then this "confirmed" JK has to go.
BH at LYLO + no other blue (dead or alive) = automatically lynch BH
If people remember this, then we can safely forget the TTTTT setup for the moment Now you are all over me for thinking of something similar and are painting me as scummy for it. You are the biggest hypocrite EVER. Also you are being frivolous with the facts and manipulative.
lol
debears is dead since. I think it was blue so my equation doesn't count anymore.
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Which part of "no other blue (dead or alive)" do you not understand ?
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On November 22 2012 14:00 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 13:43 Djodref wrote:On November 22 2012 13:37 DarthPunk wrote:On November 22 2012 13:32 Hopeless1der wrote: you quoted him talking to marv, perfect one. We didn't crack the setup until Z-Bo's flip. Even then It could have been a 5T setup with SK removed. I was worried about it. Now I don't have to be. Tell me if BH had survived to MYLO and say Iamp and Hopeless had been killed without BH dying you wouldn't have been worried. I would have been not be worried at all, I would have voted the other guy without a blink and said GG.Did you download the tool that Keir use to generate this setup ? I recommend you to go read this page : Keirathi PUBLIC discussion about his setupBH was 100% confirmed ! Which makes THIS a fucking lie.
I stated that Hopeless and BH were 100% confirmed in this post after debears death. And this was the natural follow-up of all our setup extrapolation. And I have blamed S&B for his vote against BH early D3 because it should have been the only possible conclusion for both of us at this point.
On November 19 2012 12:28 Djodref wrote: Shit guys, are you actually voting me for this ? I admit I didn't explain it well but I don't think its a good reason to vote for someone...
On a side note, I think that our setup is MVCCDTT. This is what makes the most sense right now and S&B should know it as well. I'm totally dropping BH now.
But if there is another blue, he has to claim noaw imo.
On November 19 2012 12:37 Djodref wrote: Anyway, a zero T setup would have less than 1% chance to get rolled at the beginning in a classic C9++ game and the probability is even lower with Keir generator because the one-shot roles are replaced by Ts.
I wanted S&B to say this to me. I don't understand how S&B can have his vote on BH right now given the info we have. MVCCDTT makes more sense, in term of probability and in term of play. Your logic is fallacious right now S&B. Explain me how you can conclude that voting BH is still a good move now and I might unvote you. ##Vote S&B
On November 19 2012 23:23 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 22:46 strongandbig wrote:On November 19 2012 12:37 Djodref wrote: Anyway, a zero T setup would have less than 1% chance to get rolled at the beginning in a classic C9++ game and the probability is even lower with Keir generator because the one-shot roles are replaced by Ts.
I wanted S&B to say this to me. I don't understand how S&B can have his vote on BH right now given the info we have. MVCCDTT makes more sense, in term of probability and in term of play. Your logic is fallacious right now S&B. Explain me how you can conclude that voting BH is still a good move now and I might unvote you. ##Vote S&B The reason that I'm still voting BH is that I'm pissed off at him for insulting me and therefore I want him to die. If we have no more blue claims then he's pretty much confirmed by the setup possibilities - the blues we already know about mean the setup must at least include MCCV. That's only three letters, and a TTT setup wouldn't include a godfather, so there has to be at least one more letter. So either there is another blue, or we have TTMCCDV and BH is confirmed. Unfortunately. @ S&BWell, these are good reasons for putting your vote on someone but that's not going to happen and we have to play to win. There is no other blue in my opinion. Another Jailkeeper would have counterclaimed BH in ages. A Town RoleBlocker would have blocked someone. Another Vigilante would mean MCCVVVV which is unlikely as hell Another Cop would mean MCCCCVT which is also quite unlikely, without adding the fact that we have no sign of an SK and that another Cop with 2 possible checks would solve us the game right away. There is no other, the time for speculation is over. The setup is MVCCDTT, there is no SK and Hopeless is 100% confirmed Luigi the Vig and Blazinghand is 100% confirmed JailKeeper. And the fact that they are 100% confirmed is great and that's what all this setup speculation gave us. So, yes, it is useful ! You should get your vote off BH's back now...
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