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On September 10 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: dude, 3rd party Forumite gets shot n1 in his games because he's too helpful for town while trying to blend in. Town forumite is helpful for town as well. Only mafia forumite is doing apeshit. Third party forumite got shot for being too helpful in a game where I thought he was scum. That was the first case I made in that game before going nuts about your bandaid.
I gave my thoughts on WoF Forumite and this game. Right now I wouldn't vote for Forumite. Reading past town games might change that.
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Things that I don't think: Forumite has been particularly helpful/active/involved. Things I still don't want to do: vote Forumite right now.
strongandbig asked for my thoughts on Forumite/your case. I've got him down as one of my stronger town reads. I think that was a good request for to make, and I've obliged.
You don't need to convince me, right this second, that your case is great or that Forumite is scum. I've said I'm going to go read other games, because I don't like comparisons being made only to a single (mini) game in which Forumite was scum. If I read those games and go, "Gee whiz, Forumite sure is helpful when town and sure isn't playing like he is in LVII!" then I'll be back here voting Forumite.
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EBWOP: "him" in the second chunk there = strongandbig
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On September 10 2012 04:25 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 04:21 austinmcc wrote: strongandbig asked for my thoughts on Forumite/your case. I've got him down as one of my stronger town reads. I think that was a good request for to make, and I've obliged.
Is that the only thing you're basing a town read on? There has been at least few other cases of "Can I please get some opinions on this case here?". I'll admit that I like the opinion request when made in this way, not "Can I get another opinion?" which just sits empty and people might or might not jump on, but rather "X will you comment on Y's case, Y on X's case?" Clear request. Ought to be answered. Gives information on X and Y, as well as on the strengths/weaknesses of their cases.
A lot of the read comes from minor stuff though, posts that I felt came from a townie: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 00:29 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 23:52 Maverick32x wrote: I voted for Matt due to the lying- but I would be curious to hear if he has a defense of some kind?? lol. If matt was going to defend himself he would have said something by now other than "hey guys maybe I'm a VT trying to draw scum shots lol". I've played a bunch of games with Mattchew recently and based on those, I think this is him as scum. For example, if I were going to fakeclaim miller as scum, I would do it very differently. However, you have to remember a couple things about Mattchew: - he's lazy as fuck as scum, except in themed games - he's pretty aggressive as town a lot of the time. The example I was thinking about was from him in TL Mafia LV, where he and I were both town. He lied about taking a shot, and then when I suggested that it made no sense for him to take a scum shot and he might have been vigged, he attacked me like a moron for the rest of the game. Unlike that, in this game his lie doesn't have any follow-up. If it was a planned-out pro-town lie, which I imagine is what he'll pretend it is, he would have been all over the first few people to attack him. Instead he just disappeared. It seems much more likely that what he did was the same thing I did in deathnote - claimed miller without first asking the hosts whether millers are self-aware, and got caught for it. The difference is, I did it in a game with a closed setup. ##vote: mattchew Gives a solid response here. There were some other "Mattchew scum cuz he's not defending himself" posts, but snb gaev a more detailed breakdown that I liked, that felt townie to me. On September 07 2012 19:18 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:59 Toadesstern wrote:
strongandbig: That guy should be scared as shit about me but he isn't. Not at all. To be precise he's even pretty buddy-ish with me. I think he knows I'm not mafia. Do not like. [snip] Ottox definitly is the best lynch if he survives. BKE & S+B are mentioned because I want people to check their filter as well. I'm not set on lynching them yet but they're the best candidates I've got besides the "usual" ones. I'd rather not have people just forget about them.
So why should I in particular be scared of you in particular? Is it because I should be quivering in fear of your particularly stellar scumplay? Cause something about the ridiculous way you died last game makes you seem a lot less scary, as irrational as that is. Now, I'm not sure how you think I'm buddying you. Unless you mean the "we're the only ones in the thread" thing - I see game-related buddying like 'ooh your reads are right on yeah way to lead the town' as being a lot scummier than 'hey man sup in the thread at this european hour or whatever', but whatever. I was actually just going to ignore this whole thing because there's really not much for me to say about it ("you're buddying me! No I'm not! Yes you are!" doesn't really help anything), but it made me think a bit about you this game vs last game, and I wanted to ask something. Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:25 Toadesstern wrote:On August 22 2012 03:19 HiroPro wrote:On August 22 2012 03:13 Toadesstern wrote:On August 22 2012 03:06 HiroPro wrote: Hi toad. Why is your vote on someone who's not going to be lynched today? Why have you not talked about any of the actual cases that have been brought up recently? Because I'm still undecided so far. I'm just don't really like lynching people I never played with before d1 in general so I don't talk about imallinson at all because I want to have more time to get a proper read on him because I don't know what's "normal" for him and what's not. I'm sure you'll find my opinion on every other guy that has been mentioned so far as I actually played with most of the people in this game before. Call a name and I'll copy & paste the quotes but I'm sure you could just search for it yourself. Am I posting too much so that I'm like gonzaw or are you not reading my posts? You haven't said anything about Dirkzor either. I know you've played with Zeph before, VE has brought a case. I guess I just ninja'ed you. Not much of an opinion on Dirkzor right now. He's one of the guys I'd rather have a look at day-2 or day-3. Same goes for Zeph. Last game I wanted to lynch him because I found a couple of posts that read like scumslips to me and he ended up flipping mafia. So pretty much the same as Dirkzor: Rather leave him alive and check out d2 or d3. If he's mafia he'll slip soon enough. I'm really in favor of lynching vets d1 in general. That's why you'll mostly find me comment on those people because I feel more comfortable judging them even with fewer amounts of posts. This is from last game - this game, instead it's Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1. That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline :p What changed? And don't say your alignment, from how highly you talk of your own scum play I know you wouldn't be doing something as simple as coming down on different sides of a policy question as scum vs town. Now in terms of your process of elimination thing - the obvious biggest problem with that is that it assumes you're town. You've done this before, like when we were playing in mtg mafia. You even actually came right out when the last vet was dead other than you and said "but why would I say that as scum, it's setting myself up to be lynched later." That argument worked that time, but it also taught me to watch you when you start talking about vet balance. That said, I think forumite is looking scummier than you are atm. I still really don't like his "don't use meta on vets" comment, and I don't think that's been addressed since I brought it up last time Yeah I think the same person is looking bad as you do even though you just accused me of buddying you, deal with it. Stayed away from the buddying stuff, noticed a contradiction in Toad's policy posting. On September 08 2012 08:20 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 07:28 grush57 wrote: AWWW SHEEEEEEEEEET. I KNOW WHY TOAD CALLED ME SCUM I FORGOT STARSENSES. lol i was worried Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 06:52 Toadesstern wrote: grush is mafia. BKE's probably; if BKE's not mafia it's probably foru?
But I had almost no time today as friends came over so I'll have to reread things tomorrow. Haven't even read what happened the last 4 hours so far except for an incredible fast read. toaaaaad why do you say grush is mafia? ps this is a serious question. grush is like by far the easiest rando free scumread to throw around. Not letting someone get away with "Grush anti-town" or "Grush scum." I think this is major town points, and something I should have been doing harder. I don't like a thread filling up with people parroting a half-read when they don't seem to have taken the time to really substantiate their own thoughts with clear references to what the guy's been doing. On September 09 2012 02:25 strongandbig wrote: I don't think grush is scum. As far as I can tell the case on him from toad started off as "grush is trying harder to look/be townie than he usually does, therefore he must be scum." The alternative explanation is that maybe he's just trying harder to look/be townie? I played/obsed the recent PTP game, where grush survived until almost the end - that game, trolly as it was, was the towniest grush has ever been.
I'm still not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush.
The claim, I don't know about. It's a very easy claim for mafia to make, and we can't prove it false or true, especially since he'll be able to claim roleblocked. There's the fact that if he checked the person who was suicide bombed he should be dead, but I give zero weight to the argument that's been made by some people that his claim is too weird to be made by mafia. If the claim is fake, it's possible that he was the one who delivered the KP on BC - or one of the two if he was double stacked - and the claim is designed to be safe against trackers and real watchers.
Anyway, I don't think we should ignore the case on him just because he claimed a PR. I agree with whoever it was up above who said that if we do that, then scum can just always claim PRs and get free extra life by claiming to be roleblocked.
So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe
pre-edit Reading over Austin's post right above mine it looks like some decent arguments on z-boson as well - big lists, not following up on his own stuff, inconsistency, etc. Also someone to consider. Again, finds Grush townie. Which I like. Notices the weakness in any kind of case on Grush. Is wishy-washy on BKE, bad, but goes through some reasoning as to why, chooses a decent line of reasoning to vote on - what's the case before the claim. Not my favorite, but all right.
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On September 10 2012 04:50 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 04:36 austinmcc wrote:On September 10 2012 04:25 Kreb wrote:On September 10 2012 04:21 austinmcc wrote: strongandbig asked for my thoughts on Forumite/your case. I've got him down as one of my stronger town reads. I think that was a good request for to make, and I've obliged.
Is that the only thing you're basing a town read on? There has been at least few other cases of "Can I please get some opinions on this case here?". I'll admit that I like the opinion request when made in this way, not "Can I get another opinion?" which just sits empty and people might or might not jump on, but rather "X will you comment on Y's case, Y on X's case?" Clear request. Ought to be answered. Gives information on X and Y, as well as on the strengths/weaknesses of their cases. A lot of the read comes from minor stuff though, posts that I felt came from a townie: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 00:29 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 23:52 Maverick32x wrote: I voted for Matt due to the lying- but I would be curious to hear if he has a defense of some kind?? lol. If matt was going to defend himself he would have said something by now other than "hey guys maybe I'm a VT trying to draw scum shots lol". I've played a bunch of games with Mattchew recently and based on those, I think this is him as scum. For example, if I were going to fakeclaim miller as scum, I would do it very differently. However, you have to remember a couple things about Mattchew: - he's lazy as fuck as scum, except in themed games - he's pretty aggressive as town a lot of the time. The example I was thinking about was from him in TL Mafia LV, where he and I were both town. He lied about taking a shot, and then when I suggested that it made no sense for him to take a scum shot and he might have been vigged, he attacked me like a moron for the rest of the game. Unlike that, in this game his lie doesn't have any follow-up. If it was a planned-out pro-town lie, which I imagine is what he'll pretend it is, he would have been all over the first few people to attack him. Instead he just disappeared. It seems much more likely that what he did was the same thing I did in deathnote - claimed miller without first asking the hosts whether millers are self-aware, and got caught for it. The difference is, I did it in a game with a closed setup. ##vote: mattchew Gives a solid response here. There were some other "Mattchew scum cuz he's not defending himself" posts, but snb gaev a more detailed breakdown that I liked, that felt townie to me. On September 07 2012 19:18 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:59 Toadesstern wrote:
strongandbig: That guy should be scared as shit about me but he isn't. Not at all. To be precise he's even pretty buddy-ish with me. I think he knows I'm not mafia. Do not like. [snip] Ottox definitly is the best lynch if he survives. BKE & S+B are mentioned because I want people to check their filter as well. I'm not set on lynching them yet but they're the best candidates I've got besides the "usual" ones. I'd rather not have people just forget about them.
So why should I in particular be scared of you in particular? Is it because I should be quivering in fear of your particularly stellar scumplay? Cause something about the ridiculous way you died last game makes you seem a lot less scary, as irrational as that is. Now, I'm not sure how you think I'm buddying you. Unless you mean the "we're the only ones in the thread" thing - I see game-related buddying like 'ooh your reads are right on yeah way to lead the town' as being a lot scummier than 'hey man sup in the thread at this european hour or whatever', but whatever. I was actually just going to ignore this whole thing because there's really not much for me to say about it ("you're buddying me! No I'm not! Yes you are!" doesn't really help anything), but it made me think a bit about you this game vs last game, and I wanted to ask something. Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 03:25 Toadesstern wrote:On August 22 2012 03:19 HiroPro wrote:On August 22 2012 03:13 Toadesstern wrote:On August 22 2012 03:06 HiroPro wrote: Hi toad. Why is your vote on someone who's not going to be lynched today? Why have you not talked about any of the actual cases that have been brought up recently? Because I'm still undecided so far. I'm just don't really like lynching people I never played with before d1 in general so I don't talk about imallinson at all because I want to have more time to get a proper read on him because I don't know what's "normal" for him and what's not. I'm sure you'll find my opinion on every other guy that has been mentioned so far as I actually played with most of the people in this game before. Call a name and I'll copy & paste the quotes but I'm sure you could just search for it yourself. Am I posting too much so that I'm like gonzaw or are you not reading my posts? You haven't said anything about Dirkzor either. I know you've played with Zeph before, VE has brought a case. I guess I just ninja'ed you. Not much of an opinion on Dirkzor right now. He's one of the guys I'd rather have a look at day-2 or day-3. Same goes for Zeph. Last game I wanted to lynch him because I found a couple of posts that read like scumslips to me and he ended up flipping mafia. So pretty much the same as Dirkzor: Rather leave him alive and check out d2 or d3. If he's mafia he'll slip soon enough. I'm really in favor of lynching vets d1 in general. That's why you'll mostly find me comment on those people because I feel more comfortable judging them even with fewer amounts of posts. This is from last game - this game, instead it's Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1. That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline :p What changed? And don't say your alignment, from how highly you talk of your own scum play I know you wouldn't be doing something as simple as coming down on different sides of a policy question as scum vs town. Now in terms of your process of elimination thing - the obvious biggest problem with that is that it assumes you're town. You've done this before, like when we were playing in mtg mafia. You even actually came right out when the last vet was dead other than you and said "but why would I say that as scum, it's setting myself up to be lynched later." That argument worked that time, but it also taught me to watch you when you start talking about vet balance. That said, I think forumite is looking scummier than you are atm. I still really don't like his "don't use meta on vets" comment, and I don't think that's been addressed since I brought it up last time Yeah I think the same person is looking bad as you do even though you just accused me of buddying you, deal with it. Stayed away from the buddying stuff, noticed a contradiction in Toad's policy posting. On September 08 2012 08:20 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 07:28 grush57 wrote: AWWW SHEEEEEEEEEET. I KNOW WHY TOAD CALLED ME SCUM I FORGOT STARSENSES. lol i was worried Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 06:52 Toadesstern wrote: grush is mafia. BKE's probably; if BKE's not mafia it's probably foru?
But I had almost no time today as friends came over so I'll have to reread things tomorrow. Haven't even read what happened the last 4 hours so far except for an incredible fast read. toaaaaad why do you say grush is mafia? ps this is a serious question. grush is like by far the easiest rando free scumread to throw around. Not letting someone get away with "Grush anti-town" or "Grush scum." I think this is major town points, and something I should have been doing harder. I don't like a thread filling up with people parroting a half-read when they don't seem to have taken the time to really substantiate their own thoughts with clear references to what the guy's been doing. On September 09 2012 02:25 strongandbig wrote: I don't think grush is scum. As far as I can tell the case on him from toad started off as "grush is trying harder to look/be townie than he usually does, therefore he must be scum." The alternative explanation is that maybe he's just trying harder to look/be townie? I played/obsed the recent PTP game, where grush survived until almost the end - that game, trolly as it was, was the towniest grush has ever been.
I'm still not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush.
The claim, I don't know about. It's a very easy claim for mafia to make, and we can't prove it false or true, especially since he'll be able to claim roleblocked. There's the fact that if he checked the person who was suicide bombed he should be dead, but I give zero weight to the argument that's been made by some people that his claim is too weird to be made by mafia. If the claim is fake, it's possible that he was the one who delivered the KP on BC - or one of the two if he was double stacked - and the claim is designed to be safe against trackers and real watchers.
Anyway, I don't think we should ignore the case on him just because he claimed a PR. I agree with whoever it was up above who said that if we do that, then scum can just always claim PRs and get free extra life by claiming to be roleblocked.
So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe
pre-edit Reading over Austin's post right above mine it looks like some decent arguments on z-boson as well - big lists, not following up on his own stuff, inconsistency, etc. Also someone to consider. Again, finds Grush townie. Which I like. Notices the weakness in any kind of case on Grush. Is wishy-washy on BKE, bad, but goes through some reasoning as to why, chooses a decent line of reasoning to vote on - what's the case before the claim. Not my favorite, but all right. Agreed on the "feeling" townish. But I cant help noticing S&B seemed to be opposed to Toads claim of him buddying Toad, and then follows it up by "voting Toad for mayor". Though maybe thats all small talk. I read joke, based on Toad's tiny "vote me for mayor" text. I almost responded in the same way.
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May as well post a little about Toad.
There were a few things I was worried about in his filter. Some bits that were fine as town, but could also be read as him setting up mafia objectives. This was also one reason I wasn't going to vote forumite, and still might not, because I was worried about Toad, and probably overly so.
The way he was asking blues to congregate on himself/BC last night worried me, in a game where scum went for a suicide bomber on outspoken townies (DrH was as outspoken and towny on my list as BC was). He wants medics on him and BC. If you're a watcher, you might want to watch those people to see who visited and either find shooters or blues if the guy doesn't die. So a request like that MIGHT = a bunch of blues stacked up. However, DrH got suicided and not BC, so the more I reread the less paranoid I am.
He also wanted all vigis stacked on ottox.If Ottox somehow manages to survive the night you've got to lynch him no matter what. It's actually quite possible that we've got vigs thinking "well we probably got a bunch of vigs who want to shoot him so I don't need to as well. No need to quadrupel-stack him". I've been in that situation as well and ended up shooting my #2 reads instead of my #1 reads (AC comes to mind ) because I thought someone else would take care of the #1 read anyways because the guy was pretty much confirmed mafia. Same as with stacking on himself/BC, you get a nice juicy suicide bomber target. Moreover, you could ensure that extra bullets were wasted on Ottox, who you knew to be town. Again, perfectly townie thing to say - we need to have this guy gone before D2, please don't everyone think someone else will take care of this, because that's happened before. But just nagged at the back of my mind.
A lot of the rest of what I didn't like were some conversations between Z-BosoN and Toad. Toad rushing in to start up conversation about vets when Z-BosoN was trying to not be a topic of conversation, couple other instances. But, I'm still thinking Z-BosoN third party, so Toad looks better there.
All in all, I don't think Toad would have asked everyone to stack himself and BC, yet suicide DrH, if he were scum. So I'm townie on him at the moment after a couple rereads, no longer thinking of pursuing him.
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Awwww, I always expected to go in a sane fashion
gg
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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
gg all, thanks hosts for a fun game.
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