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On September 08 2012 23:15 Toadesstern wrote: Supposedly mafia only used 1KP yesterday. BC got killed by suicidebomber. I hiiiiighly doubt ottox was a mafiahit and think he was hit by town, which leaves us with DrH. But According to BKE only one guy visited him and he did not get doublestacked. Neither do we have a claim from someone else who got protected or shot n1. So one shot is missing
This. GK as suicide bomber could still deliver a kill. And if you're scum and you lose mattchew D1, you're suiciding GK N1, you're 100% gonna use him as a shooter because he can't get caught delivering a kill, he's gonna be dead.
We're basically narrowed down to BM24 being double stacked and BKE lying OR BM24 single shot, BKE watcher, and a medic save.
Unless mafia shot Ottoxlol, which seems...unlikely.
On September 08 2012 23:29 Shady Sands wrote:Other than BKE, my other main read is GRush. It starts here: Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:50 grush57 wrote: K. Medics on Toad and BC and BM. Vigi kill in the pool of scummy people/ scummylurkers. Ex: Ottox, Maverick, Do you has.
This comes before GK suicide bombs into BC/BM. To me it almost sounds like he was trying to draw a blue into the bombing. I'm pretty sure Grush wasn't the only one doing that. Toad did it at one point (or multiple points), everyone and their mother discussed vigi shots on half the town. Morning laziness means I'm not finding those quotes for you, but I'm almost certain there were a decent number of similar posts, but less concise.
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On September 08 2012 23:46 Toadesstern wrote: If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we? I hope not. No offense to BKE, but if the medic claims then it's a bad deal. Medic backs up BKE's claim; we don't mislynch BKE. We get an almost confirmed town in the medic's target, scum gets a medic and a watcher identified. We could still mislynch today even after all that.
It's a bad trade. If we had a medic save, from a medic who possibly got an intelligent protect N1 and might get some more, guy should stay quiet. Scum comes out ahead in that trade, because they get lots of blue info whereas town just goes from a definite mislynch to a maybe mislynch with the next target.
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On September 08 2012 23:48 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 23:46 Toadesstern wrote:On September 08 2012 23:41 austinmcc wrote:On September 08 2012 23:15 Toadesstern wrote: Supposedly mafia only used 1KP yesterday. BC got killed by suicidebomber. I hiiiiighly doubt ottox was a mafiahit and think he was hit by town, which leaves us with DrH. But According to BKE only one guy visited him and he did not get doublestacked. Neither do we have a claim from someone else who got protected or shot n1. So one shot is missing
This. GK as suicide bomber could still deliver a kill. And if you're scum and you lose mattchew D1, you're suiciding GK N1, you're 100% gonna use him as a shooter because he can't get caught delivering a kill, he's gonna be dead. We're basically narrowed down to BM24 being double stacked and BKE lying OR BM24 single shot, BKE watcher, and a medic save. Unless mafia shot Ottoxlol, which seems...unlikely.
On September 08 2012 23:29 Shady Sands wrote:Other than BKE, my other main read is GRush. It starts here: On September 06 2012 07:50 grush57 wrote: K. Medics on Toad and BC and BM. Vigi kill in the pool of scummy people/ scummylurkers. Ex: Ottox, Maverick, Do you has.
This comes before GK suicide bombs into BC/BM. To me it almost sounds like he was trying to draw a blue into the bombing. I'm pretty sure Grush wasn't the only one doing that. Toad did it at one point (or multiple points), everyone and their mother discussed vigi shots on half the town. Morning laziness means I'm not finding those quotes for you, but I'm almost certain there were a decent number of similar posts, but less concise. If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we? Any yes you're correct, I said something along those lines as well. I said I want medics on BC+myself. Got it. I just found it strange that both of the N1 kills were listed in his post requesting medic protection, and part of the N1 body count was delivered via suicide bomber. Oh, I don't think it's wrong to find that strange at all. It's not enough for toad to be scum, and I'm paranoid so I'm trying not to buy into it, but it certainly looks bad to ask town's blues to congregate on a couple people, one of whom was then suicided. It's been in the back of my head.
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On September 08 2012 23:51 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 23:49 austinmcc wrote:On September 08 2012 23:46 Toadesstern wrote: If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we? I hope not. No offense to BKE, but if the medic claims then it's a bad deal. Medic backs up BKE's claim; we don't mislynch BKE. We get an almost confirmed town in the medic's target, scum gets a medic and a watcher identified. We could still mislynch today even after all that. It's a bad trade. If we had a medic save, from a medic who possibly got an intelligent protect N1 and might get some more, guy should stay quiet. Scum comes out ahead in that trade, because they get lots of blue info whereas town just goes from a definite mislynch to a maybe mislynch with the next target. Doesn't this also mean that scum could read anyone who defends BKE heavily as a potential medic? I guess it increases the chances, yeah.
Also hadn't thought about that, and wish you hadn't mentioned, lol.
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On September 08 2012 23:56 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 23:49 austinmcc wrote:On September 08 2012 23:46 Toadesstern wrote: If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we? I hope not. No offense to BKE, but if the medic claims then it's a bad deal. Medic backs up BKE's claim; we don't mislynch BKE. We get an almost confirmed town in the medic's target, scum gets a medic and a watcher identified. We could still mislynch today even after all that. It's a bad trade. If we had a medic save, from a medic who possibly got an intelligent protect N1 and might get some more, guy should stay quiet. Scum comes out ahead in that trade, because they get lots of blue info whereas town just goes from a definite mislynch to a maybe mislynch with the next target. Not the medic is supposed to claim. The guy who got hit should claim being hit, if there is someone like that to begin with. That doesn't reveal the medic. It gives an almost confirmed townie for the medics point of view and a decent town read for everyone else judging the guy. There's no reason not to claim being hit as a townie, therefore I'd say there was noone being hit and we've got another screw up lol. Gotcha.
OP so sparse We had no claims of being roleblocked, even though we might have jailers and might have roleblockers. And no claimed hit. There's some chance that the person doesn't get notified of a hit, although that seems out of the ordinary. But we're missing any RB info, regardless of whether we're also missing a hit if BKE isn't scum.
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That's what I was getting at Shady but my coffee mug still isn't empty this morning. We don't know if there are notifications, and the fact that we have no RB claims might indicate that we don't.
Toad, I think the medic would know on some level. Mattchew got lynched and GK suicided, no way do you hold a shot N1 for mindgames in that situation.
So if we had a medic protect a legitimate target, the medic knows that either (1) BKE claimed something that could be proven false by pure setup/flip information and the medic didn't stop a shot OR (2) he stopped a shot. Right?
Actually...the fact that BKE's claim is so wrong is making me kind of wonder. I haven't voted but he looked bad, was planning on voting him. Pretty ballsy play as scum to claim someone that's so demonstrably false just based on flips.
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On September 09 2012 00:21 Shady Sands wrote: Thanks.
Ergo, we have no way to verify BKE's claim... Right. Either he's a watcher OR he chose a fakeclaim so bad it could be disproven pretty much by flips alone. And it wasn't a pressure claim, he was getting called out all yesterday, then claimed while nobody was doing anything.
I'm currently believing the claim since it seems like a giant risk to take when you're already down 2. Heck, why go with a terrible fake claim when you could name anything?
BM, where you at? We discussed scum having/not having some sort of leader earlier. I'd like to hear your updated thoughts.
Ottoxlol flipped town, so it's not a case where mattchew/ottox/gravan all messed up and looked scummy D1. 2 vets died, so they're not options as some sort of mafia general, commanding the troops.
Now we've got this BKE claim. Do you believe that claim? Are there players you could see saying, "hey you, go make a terrible fakeclaim that's so bad people will have trouble thinking it's from scum"? I don't see BKE, if scum, going that route, because you don't really gain anything compared to a better fake claim.
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I'm believing BKE's claim right now. Toad, I see you've changed your tune, but I don't see why you'd claim watcher instead of vig or hatter, doctor, anything that couldn't really be disproven. Everyone IMMEDIATELY jumped on the watcher claim because it was so demonstrably odd based on flips. That's not the right fakeclaim to throw out as mafia. Could be the perfect fakeclaim given that it's so unlikely to be from mafia, but I'm still buying it.
I do not want to lynch Grush. Grush is an EASY MISLYNCH EVERY DANG GAME. Moreover, Grush was already slightly pushed earlier. Scum realizes the BKE mislynch may be falling away, just hopping over to a new candidate. Grush is a bad lynch right now, and mafia is using him to get a mislynch even after the BKE wagon fell apart.
I would like some serious discussion about Toad as an outside lynch candidate. Will put together some reasoning and posts and get them in here, but I think we should discuss him. Mav deserves a look as an option, he's been popping up as scummy to a lot of people, yet the lynch just laserbeams right onto Grush after BKE, with no discussion of other options. We've got so many people not weighing in here, that just voted BKE yesterday and then haven't been around. Any of those people here? Any thoughts?
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Scratch that. Lynching Toad would require way more work and way more discussion than I think we're going to get at this point in time. I will put together some stuff, post it this night. I don't think we've got enough time left this day to push a difficult lynch, so we need to look at ... easier options? ... that sounds kind of bad, but hopefully people can understand what I mean. We have limited time to get new candidates and discuss them, and trying to get a lynch on certain targets will be much more difficult than getting a lynch on targets like Grush. Who's seriously not mafia.
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On September 09 2012 01:39 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:38 austinmcc wrote: Scratch that. Lynching Toad would require way more work and way more discussion than I think we're going to get at this point in time. I will put together some stuff, post it this night. I don't think we've got enough time left this day to push a difficult lynch, so we need to look at ... easier options? ... that sounds kind of bad, but hopefully people can understand what I mean. We have limited time to get new candidates and discuss them, and trying to get a lynch on certain targets will be much more difficult than getting a lynch on targets like Grush. Who's seriously not mafia. Why do you think grush is not mafia? brb going to mickey d's, haven't smoked in such a long time, getting serious munchies Grush started off early game chatting with Toad about sloosh. He actually participated there, actually participates at a couple other points - + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 05:16 grush57 wrote: And all of you new players as town you gotta make stances, lists of reads do jack shit. A lot of you are sounding scummy and probably just because you're new, but actually town. Active participation On September 06 2012 07:51 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:47 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 07:40 Toadesstern wrote: Bam. Watcher on people like BC and me please.
Mafia will want to hit that. Why on earth do you think mafia would want to hit you? Towny vets. Answering questions not directed at him, reading thread + participating where it wasn't necessary and not in trolly ways http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=1034&topic_id=361826 Thinking about the NKs. Note, thinking about the NKs BEFORE THE BKE CLAIM. So he wasn't just hopping into that discussion. This isn't super towny, because mafia would have known medic save was the other option if they didn't double stack. On September 07 2012 07:40 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:39 Forumite wrote: If Ottox would have been alive right now then I expect he´d allready have a few votes. Him dying saved us a day of discussion. That too. Probably would of wasted a cycle. again, little bitty participation one-liners when he doesn't need to. On September 07 2012 08:44 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:55 austinmcc wrote:On September 06 2012 22:07 austinmcc wrote: Grush, if everyone in this game were a toaster, who would be the most energy-efficient? The quickest to make toast? The most likely to burn down a house? If you're still around Hmm, another fancy question. I'm assuming the first question is who provides the most information and least fluff. Second question fastest at making cases/scumhunting. Third the most chaotic/scummy. HMM On September 07 2012 08:48 grush57 wrote: I would of put Ottox at third question and BC at second question. On September 07 2012 08:48 grush57 wrote: This is hard Town is REALLY active and good this game. His answers to my questions don't make me lean super town right now, but it shows that, again, he's participating. I ask him a particular question, not anybody else. He has to come up with his own stuff, not parrot someone else's case or just yell in caps. He gives two answers, after thinking about what criteria quickest and likely to burn down the house are. He doesn't answer the first. He COULD have just thrown out three names. COULD have said I'm not answering your dumb weird questions. But instead he answered, though not completely. He chose that route rather than the easier routes of answering all three or answering none.
I've played a couple games with Grush now. A lot of why I don't want to lynch him or don't think he's scummy is just...he's such an easy mislynch target. There's ALWAYS suspicion on him. Therefore, when plans go awry, he's an easy redirection for mafia. If you want to target lurkers, there are lurkier players. If you want to target people who defended BKE, there are other players who kind of limped into the Mattchew lynch, and Mattchew is confirmed now. To me, there's no single criteria where Grush is scummier than anyone else in the thread. But he doesn't exude towniness, so people are willing to lynch him because it's easy and you don't have to find another target yourself and maybe he flips scum.
That's...sort of my answer? I know it's not the strongest.
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As far as proposing an alternative, here is a pile of my vomited thoughts! Would most like to lynch...Z-boson it looks like. Still gonna be looking through others to see if anyone looks like a better candidate.
Looked through imallinson. Not a whole lot there, nothing lynch-worthy. But he doesn't really interact with the thread much. A lot of his posts are just chiming in on ottox, gravan, so he's not had to stick his neck out and DO anything. Not a good lynch candidate, gotta be someone scummier.
Maverick. Has those couple early posts that were ugly. Defends matt somewhat. Blah blah blah. I still don't like the timing on his posts. Someone else could push mav if they wanted, but I don't like him for scum. I'm going with newbie townie on this guy.
Z-boson. Plays with goodkarma early - + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 11:16 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote:Hey all A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson Howdy gk . Then calls him out in a post where he calls a couple people out, but never really says anything. Look at the language. (Z-Boson voice) "GK you're inconsistent. You're contradictory. Your latest post is full of crap." The end. + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 12:05 Z-BosoN wrote:goodkarmaHoly godamn inconsistency. Lord, I just have to extract simple quotes to show just how contradictory you are: Show nested quote +I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. ##FoS: BlackMamba And your latest post is so full of crap.... On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote: I would agree with Hapa that Mattchew is almost a 100% scum read. He's done a good job of highlighting why.
But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2.
Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste.
On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons.
As for things that have stood out to me:
-Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum.
-BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one.
Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here:
I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town.
##FoS: BlackMamba I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share. . The post in which he made those comments - Here. He basically names half the thread. Giant list of half the thread and some minor thoughts on each, either he's actually trying to help OR he's just posting a wall of text and setting himself up to find anyone and everyone scummy later. This post is just fluff - + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed?
Wants to stop discussing Ottoxlol + Show Spoiler +On September 06 2012 08:26 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:21 BlackMamba24 wrote: why does everyone suddenly think ottoxlol is town
Discussion regarding him is pointless by now. Does not mean we think he's town.
Right now I think the town focus should be to seek a stronger lynch candidate and not let discussion die. . But if you check his filter, the next bajillion posts are discussing ottoxlol (rough estimate. Every time something new comes up about ottoxlol (the "scumslip" on the numbers of the scumteam, etc.) he comments). Then other little things, a big ol' "I've been reading Toad and I've been quoting Toad and I want to hear more information from Toad" post - + Show Spoiler +[QUOTE] On September 08 2012 07:17 Z-BosoN wrote:I'm going to leave the BKE thing on hold for now, until we hear what he has to say. If he says nothing and doesn't bother scumhunting and gracing us with his thoughts on the game, then my vote will be on him 100%.
Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. Your post had a ton of stuff to read, and I have some issues and some doubts regarding it. Let's do this. First off, you post this: [QUOTE] On September 07 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1. That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline :p Can I ask, what conclusion do you agree with? Because the conclusion on the case against forumite is this: [quote]Why does Matt flipping red imply that I'm red as well? Why can't I be continuing to hunt scum? I still think Forumite is scum. My case was not an effort to divert the thread, it was an attempt to focus it. I wasn't around to do so, and feel free to call me scum for not following through before, but wait and see, you'll run out of steam on that front in a moment. But that doesn't make sense with your "I don't like the case on forumite". Please do explain what conclusion you meant. Now, onward to your (seemingly classic) motherfuckin wall of text. [QUOTE] On September 07 2012 06:59 Toadesstern wrote:Toads very important thoughts mostly about VETs and whatever else I consider important so far I'm doing this post because I'm probably going to die tonight. I consider myself a vet and most people probably consider me a vet as well but unlike BC I usually don't draw protection from medics for two reasons I don't need to go into detail right now, although the reasoning becomes apparant after reading the whole thing :p First important topic: VETs in this game - Forumite
- BlackMamba24 (referred to as DrH from now on to not confuse him with BM)
- BloodyC0bbler
- Bill Murray
- Toadesstern/myself :p
That's my take on who's a vet in this game. A lot of people think it's hard to analyse vets to a point that they almost got a mental blockade when it comes to vets, that's why I'm going to post some about those 4/5 although I don't have anything major yet, though I've got a conclusion I'm quite comfortable with. First things first, I did this post ( + Show Spoiler [click me!] +On September 06 2012 07:40 Toadesstern wrote: Bam. Watcher on people like BC and me please.
Mafia will want to hit that. ) on purpose trying to get some reactions, mainly from vets. Simply put I was trying to rub a subtile "sup guys I'm comfirmed town now" into peoples faces to see what they're going to say. Why did I do that? 1) Yes, why did you do that? Let's see. Right now I'm looking for an explanation as to why you wanted to hear what vets had to say regarding your town claimI am an incredible controversial guy and a shitton of people are scared like crazy about me because I'm apparently unreadable according to them. I'm a little like BC-junior, or maybe WBG-junior in that regard because people tell me I'm looking pro-town no matter of alignment every single game. So usually I'm getting the same old crap about me every game "Toad is looking townish, but that's a null-tell because Toad always looks that way". Take AC for example, Radfield actually told his scumbuddies to just attack me for looking good because I'm always looking good. WBG called the play VE and I did in LI "the best bus TL has ever seen", he said I'm unreadable in PTP, I totally destroyed town in magic and surely everyone remembers the "Annul game" (sup palmer :p). Except for PyourPoison I destroyed pretty much every town I played against as mafia and every single game I was called a townie by the vast majority of the game while telling people what to do. That's the reason I'm getting these bullshit arguments like "Toad is unreadable" / "Toad is looking town but that means nothing" all the time. No matter if I'm town or mafia and frankly I was expecting to hear something like that from a mafia-player because it's an incredible easy approach to attack someone because you can just say that EVERY single game. Sadly it never happened. However I still ended up getting some reactions although they're minor ones.2*) So you are saying that you were expecting a vet to say you were unreadable etc. etc. and attack you based on it? i.e., had one of the four vets said anything in an aggressive manner, you would have pegged him as scum and attacked him later on?tl;dr / Summary so far:- I am town
- BC is pretty much town
- I highly lean on BM being town giving his style. He attacked me during this night for something he thought to be something. It obviously was nothing but his argument was not the typical "toad is unreadable, BE AFRAID GUYS" fear mongering I get all the time and I doubt a mafia would get in there attacking me the way he did.
That leaves us with Foru and DrH. DrH still feels odd although I can't put my finger on it. Foru feels way to cautios when he's posting. I'm almost certain one of those 2 got to be mafia and considering that my guts are telling me that foru feels cautios I'd rather bet on him being mafia by some degree.3*) So you don't like the cases on foru, you don't say why AND even add that you don't like targeting vets (in the previous post), and your guts are telling you that you would bet on him being mafia despite shitting on the main case against him so far? This all due to your experience with him and your gut feelings?The thing about this is that it's not a clear case. What I've got about those 3 (BM / foru / drH) so far is very minor and not worth making a case about so I'm not going to. However process of elimination is a nice approach for those kind of people and that being said I really doubt BM or BC are mafia. 4*) Ok, this explains why you aren't making cases against them and is being consistent with your "let's not target vets" approach. Since this part of your post mainly deals with vets, I am to assume this pseudo-read on forumite is just a comparative between the vets and not actually a real go-through-with-it suspicion?5**) Just to make it ultra-clear: Now that both DrH and BC are dead, do you think forumite/BM are mafia? People who are not vets but should be a topicOttox: No need to talk about him I guess DoYouHas: He's looking bad when posting but I actually like his answers strongandbig: That guy should be scared as shit about me but he isn't. Not at all. To be precise he's even pretty buddy-ish with me. I think he knows I'm not mafia. Do not like. BroodKingEXE: Weirdest vote from d1. Other than that he's fine but the vote really looks like "let's scatter at least SOMEWHAT, just pretend you forgot to unvote BKE" If Ottox somehow manages to survive the night you've got to lynch him no matter what. It's actually quite possible that we've got vigs thinking "well we probably got a bunch of vigs who want to shoot him so I don't need to as well. No need to quadrupel-stack him". I've been in that situation as well and ended up shooting my #2 reads instead of my #1 reads (AC comes to mind ) because I thought someone else would take care of the #1 read anyways because the guy was pretty much confirmed mafia. Ottox definitly is the best lynch if he survives. BKE & S+B are mentioned because I want people to check their filter as well. I'm not set on lynching them yet but they're the best candidates I've got besides the "usual" ones. I'd rather not have people just forget about them.6*) So now we've had a full case on BKE, and people are starting to sheep, what do you think on BKE? You mentioned him here as being fishy, and now I'm guessing you should be more than inclined to lynch him, yes? That being said I think it's quite likely I'm going to be dead in a couple of minutes so I'm posting this to give a couple of thoughts in case I'm not around any more. They're obviously all pretty vague because it's d1/n1 after all and thereforet it's just a summary. That means you've got to check filters yourself to understand what I'm talking about and wether or not you agree with me. Regretted not doing that in WoF when I was shot n1 as well ...
Right now we're having quite a luxury problem though: We're having to many people doing cases about everyone and their dog. That's totally fine in itself but you guys need to make sure you got some focus tomorrow. Talking about a lot of people is fine but if everyone's like a little gonzaw we'll have 25 people screaming "NO MY CASE IS THE BEST" and mafia has an easy time to pick a fitting case out of the 15915815 existing ones and will push that one. So don't spam the thread too much. This post I just did is already a wall-of-text although I'm only scratching the surface of things when talking about stuff. So keep that in mind tomorrow. 7) LOL at you/gonzaw in LI. He was extremely paranoid... funny thing was he was correct [/QUOTE] Ok, so I've referenced the writings in red so you have an easier time answering. The quantity of asterisks in each number indicate how much I would like an answer from you. Btw, you sure have a high opinion of yourself. Also, I forgot to reference this, but since I do not want to change the whole numbering now, also, please answer this: 5.5*) Why should S&B be scared shitless of you?[/QUOTE] . The followup? The number of times he's interacted with Toad since Toad responded? Zero. If he cares enough about Toad to reread past games, cares enough about Toad to read Toad's big commentary and seek answers, why doesn't he care enough to comment on toad when toad's been very active today.
I'd rather lynch Z-boson than Grush. This is just perusing through filters, I know it's not well organized, laid out. But I'm not liking what I see there.
ShiaoPi absent and I want to see more. I feel like I've had decent luck reading him in the past, and there's not enough to really get a read on him at this point.
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Hey strongandbig, are you around? Would you give your updated thoughts on BKE/grush, and give Z-boson a read?
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On September 09 2012 02:12 Toadesstern wrote: I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p No way someone would force himself into reading THAT. How does this make you feel about Z-boson?
Insert you really think someone would do that meme.
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On September 09 2012 02:19 DarthPunk wrote: @ Austin Are you 100% opposed to the Grush lynch? Would you vote for him in order to consolidate away from BKE? I am 100% opposed to a Grush lynch right now.
(1) I don't think he's scummy.
(2) I think he's an easy mislynch for mafia to push, and I don't like that he immediately floated to the top.
(3) He'll be around. IF BKE was town, mafia was probably on him, at least some members. All yesterday, BKE was the lynch, ezpz. Then he claims watcher. Now, that plan is in the crapper because people are moving away. I swear there's a post from Ace somewhere saying that the worst thing that happen to you is scum is for just a random event to break up your plan. A vig shot on a player, a confirmable claim from your mislynch target, things that break up the flow of your plan and force confusion/panic, ruin your work. I can't find it now. But I'm pretty sure it exists, if you know where it is, bonus austinpoints. BKE's claim doesn't really do that. There's still plenty of time to scheme. BUT. BUT. If we also don't lynch Grush, that really throws things for a loop. If we can generate discussion, some new reads, watch reactions, that's a lot of info for town. It's almost like...not lynching Grush for info? How does everyone react, what are the other reads we get, etc. It changes mafia's target twice if they're both town (and we can actually find a scum or two to push). Their actions and responses are useful to us. Grush isn't pulling any strings here, you can lynch him later if you want to because you don't really have to worry about him being scum and influencing town, he doesn't take a leadership role.
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On September 09 2012 02:29 Kreb wrote: Hello all. Apparently, I'm the replacement for Miltokram. Ummm, yeah, thats about it right now. =) Welcome to hours before lynch in a cycle where we keep swapping targets and we've got a claim that might be fake and maybe another lynch target and a lot of other stuff going on!
Thanks for replacing, and sorry you hopped into this situation. I just replaced into a similar spot and it took me a couple days to get my bearings.
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On September 09 2012 02:31 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 02:28 austinmcc wrote:On September 09 2012 02:19 DarthPunk wrote: @ Austin Are you 100% opposed to the Grush lynch? Would you vote for him in order to consolidate away from BKE? I am 100% opposed to a Grush lynch right now. (1) I don't think he's scummy. (2) I think he's an easy mislynch for mafia to push, and I don't like that he immediately floated to the top. (3) He'll be around. IF BKE was town, mafia was probably on him, at least some members. All yesterday, BKE was the lynch, ezpz. Then he claims watcher. Now, that plan is in the crapper because people are moving away. I swear there's a post from Ace somewhere saying that the worst thing that happen to you is scum is for just a random event to break up your plan. A vig shot on a player, a confirmable claim from your mislynch target, things that break up the flow of your plan and force confusion/panic, ruin your work. I can't find it now. But I'm pretty sure it exists, if you know where it is, bonus austinpoints. BKE's claim doesn't really do that. There's still plenty of time to scheme. BUT. BUT. If we also don't lynch Grush, that really throws things for a loop. If we can generate discussion, some new reads, watch reactions, that's a lot of info for town. It's almost like...not lynching Grush for info? How does everyone react, what are the other reads we get, etc. It changes mafia's target twice if they're both town (and we can actually find a scum or two to push). Their actions and responses are useful to us. Grush isn't pulling any strings here, you can lynch him later if you want to because you don't really have to worry about him being scum and influencing town, he doesn't take a leadership role. This is completely WIFOM. How can you say that the reason we don't lynch grush is because he's not in a town leadership role when BKE has much less towncred than him? Furthermore, I don't get what the first half of your post talking about a random event is supposed to refer to. Can you explain? This isn't really a random event. But I swear that quote exists about just...things you can't expect messing with scum plans. A vigi shooting someone you needed. A DT check on someone you needed. Someone picking at something and unraveling your plot. I think that's the sort of stuff Ace was talking about (I will go look for this, once I'm down sifting through Z-boson harder, just preoccupied right now and mainly typing, rather than looking at thread).
But imagine...some things you see coming. X has a read on Y all game. You can mess with that. You can mess with claimed roles. You can shoot active and problematic people. You want to control the thread, control the lynches, whenever you need to (and maybe even when you don't). So you're more likely to...plan things? as scum. When are we bussing x, who are we going to push, how, which 3 are going to push x and who will push y instead, etc. Sudden events mess with those plans.
This...isn't quite the same. But the fact that we had a lynch on BKE, then he claims and sparks discussion and town swaps to looking more at Grush, then town starts talking about BKE v. Grush v. Other options (hopefully more than just Z-Boson anyone have anything?) throws a wrench into the works of any plans. They had a day where they were just sitting back to lynch BKE, or setting him up (if he's town). Then that got interfered with. No problem, Grush is here. We can push a lynch onto Grush. Then that is maybe being interfered with. That's what I'm hoping to do. It's not...random. I can't even be sure both are town. But the less...the less town moves predictably, the less scum can do to control it? I'm not sure this is exactly true, but I'm kind of playing around with it in my head. So not random events messing with scum, but just...sudden changes in targets, multiple times over a day, MAY shake out some information.
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Z-boson. Gonna half-build a case here I guess, because he's a better lynch than Grush.
Interactions with players he knows + Show Spoiler +On August 31 2012 03:59 Z-BosoN wrote: Shady Sands, DarthPunk and goodkarma, great seeing you gents around here. Looking forward to this game. XXIV was quite the experience, and hope this one gets as fun. I do hope I can manage this game without screwing up RL as much though =) We know he's played before, and he's played with Shady, DarthPunk, and goodkarma. How does he interact with each of them? With DarthPunk, here's his first interaction - + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 11:12 Z-BosoN wrote: There is a lot of people who have not yet posted. The views on policy lynch, from what I've gathered, are varied. Absolute lurkers will get modkilled, so should we discuss what to do with people who have posted one or two crap posts and disappeared?
@Darthpunk Unjustified accusations won't get us anywhere. If you are going to say it was retarded, say why.
snipped
@slOosh Very well, seems reasonable. Thanks for clearing that up. What is your take on Darthpunk?
##Unvote
He read what DarthPunk said, but didn't address him directly. Asked him a question, asked slOosh about darth, but not much direct interaction. First interaction with Shady? Nope, he never interacts with shady. Hasn't quote a shady post, said hi, called him out for lurking, etc. etc. First interaction with goodkarma? + Show Spoiler +On September 04 2012 11:16 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote:Hey all A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson Howdy gk There are good ways to push information, and bad ways. By the way that almost ALL his posts were questions and the fact that some of them could easily have been avoided, I interpreted them as adding confusion rather than removing it. Thus, I pressured him to respond to this and was satisfied with his reply. The reason for the vote this early is evidently to force answers, just as your FOS did with me For now, just note the difference. He's played with these guys. But he smilies at goodkarma, they talk directly to each other. He also doesn't seem to feel very threatened by goodkarma's FoS. He's WINKING at a guy FoSing him. That bugs me, because not feeling at all threatened COULD indicate that he knows goodkarma is just writing stuff for show. Conclusion I draw - Either both are scumbuddies, so Z-Boson has a different relation with goodkarma this game than with shady or DarthPunk, or I'm pulling stuff out of my ass. You decide. Note also that the way goodkarma entered, FoSing Z-Boson, is different than the other entrances, and could explain a different reaction (Hard not to respond directly to guy X when he FoSes you).
His Mattchew Vote/Interactions (Holy balls read this) + Show Spoiler +Z-Boson on BC/Mattchew - On September 04 2012 16:21 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, regarding the BC/Mattchew situation: First of all, this post is wrong: Show nested quote +You are right, his fakeclaim doesn't prove he is mafia on its own. However, HIM ASKING FOR CLAIMS DOES. Why would a townie fakeclaim and attempt to get all blues to claim ? No townie day 1 should ever be this fuckign stupid. Even if he gets caught as mafia (as I have caught him) had anyone or if anyone proceeds to claim and a bunch of retard blues out themselves mafia is instantly ahead. IIRC, he asked for people with the same role - noisy neighbor - to claim, not blues. BC is making this main assumption: Show nested quote +No miller/neighbor is self aware in any game ever except odd pyp/ptp like setups as it defeats the purpose of the role. This game holds true to the same rule as normal games for the mechanic. To put it simply, this is the main argument going on: how can he know he is a noisy neighbor if they are unaware?. Am I correct? You have made it clear that you are 100% sure that this game does not include self-aware millers. As a normal person, one could not make this assumption, as it would be statistical. Say 90% of games don't include self-aware millers. I have read the OP, and nowhere does it say that millers aren't self-aware, so you must have other reasons to know this, because no matter what, you say it is not an assumption. The fact that you keep insisting would be ridiculous if you weren't indeed 100% certain, because, like sloosh said, you would most likely be lynched if he showed up town, making it a double town loss. Did I get anything wrong here? If not, ##Vote Mattchew Note the timestamp. This is before Palmar's confirmation. Look at it too...it's kind of...wonky. He doesn't understand how BC can KNOW that nosy beighbors weren't self-aware. He thinks it's ridiculous to insist that they're not, there's a chance that they are. But what does he do? He just votes mattchew. He's ARGUING THAT MATTCHEW MIGHT BE A SELF-AWARE NOSY NEIGHBOR, ACTIVELY SAYING "MAYBE MATTCHEW IS ACTUALLY SELF-AWARE, YOU CAN'T BE SURE BC." Yet, after arguing that, after saying Matt is maybe right, BC can't be sure...he votes Matt. He just votes Matt. Matt the guy he's trying to help out here. Doesn't wait for confirmation, doesn't discuss matt's scumminess or not scumminess, whether he believes nosy neighbors are self-aware or not, just votes matt. WhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAaaaaaAAAAAaaA????? In addition to that - KAPOW! On September 05 2012 10:53 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 10:18 BlackMamba24 wrote: Z-BoSoN hasn't posted since heaping suspicion on BC and from what I recall of at least the Death Note Obs QT he is quite attentive and active on TL, reading and updating himself a lot. I'm here. Still catching up, lots of posts to go over. Will exercise and post soon. BM24 noticed that Z-Boson was acting weird, and hadn't done anything for, by the way, 18 hours. Z-Boson NEVER came back to say "Oh, you were right BC." Z-Boson NEVER came back to discuss Palmar's confirmation. EVERYONE was discussing that crap, even when matt flipped. But not Z-boson. Moreover, does he ever discuss Matt further? Yup. On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch?
My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum.
If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched.
Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game.
@Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? This post feels wonky. WONKY. You're voting for the guy, never discussed Palmar's confirmation, and now you want to play the "Okay, where do we go if he flips town, flips scum?" game. Why are you doing this? This post is just...throwaway. There's nothing in it but the shiaopi question. It's not awful...but...it's just a weird post. Let's talk about this thing that we can talk about later once Matt flips and we don't need to talk about now. Let's spam up thread with speculation about each situation. No need to do that. Much later on, this - On September 06 2012 07:42 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:29 BlackMamba24 wrote: ooh and if BC is scum so is Z-BoSoN imo Wasn't gonna bother, but please, enlighten me. Is this just gut feeling or do you have any specific reasons? Anyways, regarding him, why exactly did he absolutely know that NN's aren't self-aware? This might have been answered or is obvious but I can't find anything. For now, my vote goes to Oxtrott. Z-BosoN asks how BC knew NN's weren't self-aware. He answered this. He PMed Palmar, before everyone else did. He was sitting on the answer but couldn't say because of the rules in the OP. Not reading thread. Not only does Ottox not talk about any of the confirmation stuff, but he didn't read it closely, because BC mentioned how he knew NN's weren't self-aware a good bit (Remember, there was back and forth between BM24 and BC about it).
Z-BosoN spammy and fluffy on Ottox + Show Spoiler +Look at page 2 of Z-Boson's filter. Here. Doop de doop de doop. Some discussion, lots of talk about Ottoxlol. Lots of stuff about Ottoxlol. Then finally gives what I consider to be a really, really decent post. On September 06 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote: Oh god, not this again. Can we just ignore ox?? It's pointless arguing with him. That's good. That's townie. Ox was preeeeeetty much gonna die. By vig, by lynch, somehow. We SHOULD have stopped arguing with him. Gj townie Z-BosoN! But...Z-BosoN didn't take his own advice. Continue looking at that page. And the next one. LOTS of stuff still on Ottoxlol. It's not the scummiest thing ever, but ... it negates the most townie thing I find in his filter. I'm not even linking posts here, just check the filter. There are boatloads. Nobody ever really said anything NEW about Ottox from the point he started looking weird until the "scumslip" on mafia numbers. That was the single new point of information we got about Ottox really. Every one of us that was just posting about Ottox and posting about Ottox was kind of wasting time, getting out meaningless posts. I did it, others did as well, so it's not like it's scum-only. But it's a convenient way to get in a lot of posting and look active, post a bunch on this topic that doesn't matter.
Dat Toad Post + Show Spoiler +On September 08 2012 07:17 Z-BosoN wrote:I'm going to leave the BKE thing on hold for now, until we hear what he has to say. If he says nothing and doesn't bother scumhunting and gracing us with his thoughts on the game, then my vote will be on him 100%.
Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. Your post had a ton of stuff to read, and I have some issues and some doubts regarding it. Let's do this. First off, you post this: Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1. That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline :p Can I ask, what conclusion do you agree with? Because the conclusion on the case against forumite is this: Show nested quote +Why does Matt flipping red imply that I'm red as well? Why can't I be continuing to hunt scum? I still think Forumite is scum. My case was not an effort to divert the thread, it was an attempt to focus it. I wasn't around to do so, and feel free to call me scum for not following through before, but wait and see, you'll run out of steam on that front in a moment. But that doesn't make sense with your "I don't like the case on forumite". Please do explain what conclusion you meant. Now, onward to your (seemingly classic) motherfuckin wall of text. Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:59 Toadesstern wrote:Toads very important thoughts mostly about VETs and whatever else I consider important so far I'm doing this post because I'm probably going to die tonight. I consider myself a vet and most people probably consider me a vet as well but unlike BC I usually don't draw protection from medics for two reasons I don't need to go into detail right now, although the reasoning becomes apparant after reading the whole thing :p First important topic: VETs in this game - Forumite
- BlackMamba24 (referred to as DrH from now on to not confuse him with BM)
- BloodyC0bbler
- Bill Murray
- Toadesstern/myself :p
That's my take on who's a vet in this game. A lot of people think it's hard to analyse vets to a point that they almost got a mental blockade when it comes to vets, that's why I'm going to post some about those 4/5 although I don't have anything major yet, though I've got a conclusion I'm quite comfortable with. First things first, I did this post ( + Show Spoiler [click me!] +On September 06 2012 07:40 Toadesstern wrote: Bam. Watcher on people like BC and me please.
Mafia will want to hit that. ) on purpose trying to get some reactions, mainly from vets. Simply put I was trying to rub a subtile "sup guys I'm comfirmed town now" into peoples faces to see what they're going to say. Why did I do that? 1) Yes, why did you do that? Let's see. Right now I'm looking for an explanation as to why you wanted to hear what vets had to say regarding your town claimI am an incredible controversial guy and a shitton of people are scared like crazy about me because I'm apparently unreadable according to them. I'm a little like BC-junior, or maybe WBG-junior in that regard because people tell me I'm looking pro-town no matter of alignment every single game. So usually I'm getting the same old crap about me every game "Toad is looking townish, but that's a null-tell because Toad always looks that way". Take AC for example, Radfield actually told his scumbuddies to just attack me for looking good because I'm always looking good. WBG called the play VE and I did in LI "the best bus TL has ever seen", he said I'm unreadable in PTP, I totally destroyed town in magic and surely everyone remembers the "Annul game" (sup palmer :p). Except for PyourPoison I destroyed pretty much every town I played against as mafia and every single game I was called a townie by the vast majority of the game while telling people what to do. That's the reason I'm getting these bullshit arguments like "Toad is unreadable" / "Toad is looking town but that means nothing" all the time. No matter if I'm town or mafia and frankly I was expecting to hear something like that from a mafia-player because it's an incredible easy approach to attack someone because you can just say that EVERY single game. Sadly it never happened. However I still ended up getting some reactions although they're minor ones.2*) So you are saying that you were expecting a vet to say you were unreadable etc. etc. and attack you based on it? i.e., had one of the four vets said anything in an aggressive manner, you would have pegged him as scum and attacked him later on?tl;dr / Summary so far:- I am town
- BC is pretty much town
- I highly lean on BM being town giving his style. He attacked me during this night for something he thought to be something. It obviously was nothing but his argument was not the typical "toad is unreadable, BE AFRAID GUYS" fear mongering I get all the time and I doubt a mafia would get in there attacking me the way he did.
That leaves us with Foru and DrH. DrH still feels odd although I can't put my finger on it. Foru feels way to cautios when he's posting. I'm almost certain one of those 2 got to be mafia and considering that my guts are telling me that foru feels cautios I'd rather bet on him being mafia by some degree.3*) So you don't like the cases on foru, you don't say why AND even add that you don't like targeting vets (in the previous post), and your guts are telling you that you would bet on him being mafia despite shitting on the main case against him so far? This all due to your experience with him and your gut feelings?The thing about this is that it's not a clear case. What I've got about those 3 (BM / foru / drH) so far is very minor and not worth making a case about so I'm not going to. However process of elimination is a nice approach for those kind of people and that being said I really doubt BM or BC are mafia. 4*) Ok, this explains why you aren't making cases against them and is being consistent with your "let's not target vets" approach. Since this part of your post mainly deals with vets, I am to assume this pseudo-read on forumite is just a comparative between the vets and not actually a real go-through-with-it suspicion?5**) Just to make it ultra-clear: Now that both DrH and BC are dead, do you think forumite/BM are mafia? People who are not vets but should be a topicOttox: No need to talk about him I guess DoYouHas: He's looking bad when posting but I actually like his answers strongandbig: That guy should be scared as shit about me but he isn't. Not at all. To be precise he's even pretty buddy-ish with me. I think he knows I'm not mafia. Do not like. BroodKingEXE: Weirdest vote from d1. Other than that he's fine but the vote really looks like "let's scatter at least SOMEWHAT, just pretend you forgot to unvote BKE" If Ottox somehow manages to survive the night you've got to lynch him no matter what. It's actually quite possible that we've got vigs thinking "well we probably got a bunch of vigs who want to shoot him so I don't need to as well. No need to quadrupel-stack him". I've been in that situation as well and ended up shooting my #2 reads instead of my #1 reads (AC comes to mind ) because I thought someone else would take care of the #1 read anyways because the guy was pretty much confirmed mafia. Ottox definitly is the best lynch if he survives. BKE & S+B are mentioned because I want people to check their filter as well. I'm not set on lynching them yet but they're the best candidates I've got besides the "usual" ones. I'd rather not have people just forget about them.6*) So now we've had a full case on BKE, and people are starting to sheep, what do you think on BKE? You mentioned him here as being fishy, and now I'm guessing you should be more than inclined to lynch him, yes? That being said I think it's quite likely I'm going to be dead in a couple of minutes so I'm posting this to give a couple of thoughts in case I'm not around any more. They're obviously all pretty vague because it's d1/n1 after all and thereforet it's just a summary. That means you've got to check filters yourself to understand what I'm talking about and wether or not you agree with me. Regretted not doing that in WoF when I was shot n1 as well ...
Right now we're having quite a luxury problem though: We're having to many people doing cases about everyone and their dog. That's totally fine in itself but you guys need to make sure you got some focus tomorrow. Talking about a lot of people is fine but if everyone's like a little gonzaw we'll have 25 people screaming "NO MY CASE IS THE BEST" and mafia has an easy time to pick a fitting case out of the 15915815 existing ones and will push that one. So don't spam the thread too much. This post I just did is already a wall-of-text although I'm only scratching the surface of things when talking about stuff. So keep that in mind tomorrow. 7) LOL at you/gonzaw in LI. He was extremely paranoid... funny thing was he was correct Ok, so I've referenced the writings in red so you have an easier time answering. The quantity of asterisks in each number indicate how much I would like an answer from you. Btw, you sure have a high opinion of yourself. Also, I forgot to reference this, but since I do not want to change the whole numbering now, also, please answer this: 5.5*) Why should S&B be scared shitless of you? (1) He claims to have read LI. Both HERE Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. and HERE 7) LOL at you/gonzaw in LI. He was extremely paranoid... funny thing was he was correct Toad lets us know that LI was massive On September 09 2012 02:12 Toadesstern wrote: I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p No way someone would force himself into reading THAT. Z-BosoN clearly either read the game or didn't. He references Gonzaw being paranoid and correct. He's pulling out specific facts. Either he went and read a ginormous game for this one offhand comment of Toad's, or he knows facts about LI from someone that was involved (Toad). Which is more likely? Just now he says this, after getting called out on it - Of course I didn't read the whole thing. Why would I do that if all I wanted was your meta? I also didn't read the entirety of your filter, because even THAT was too much. Just skimmed over your posts, reading your main cases and that pony image wall of text you posted. Again, Z-BosoN discusses Gonzaw's interactions. Z-BosoN says he just skimmed Toad's posts, drops a specific thing he noticed "pony image all of text," but knows about Gonzaw's suspicions. I just get a bad feeling from this, like it's covering up the fact that he didn't read but has knowledge of the game. (2) His questions feel like...politician questions? Read these, and see whether they're things you really ask, or if you ask you don't follow up on - 2*) So you are saying that you were expecting a vet to say you were unreadable etc. etc. and attack you based on it? i.e., had one of the four vets said anything in an aggressive manner, you would have pegged him as scum and attacked him later on? 3*) So you don't like the cases on foru, you don't say why AND even add that you don't like targeting vets (in the previous post), and your guts are telling you that you would bet on him being mafia despite shitting on the main case against him so far? This all due to your experience with him and your gut feelings? 4*) Ok, this explains why you aren't making cases against them and is being consistent with your "let's not target vets" approach. Since this part of your post mainly deals with vets, I am to assume this pseudo-read on forumite is just a comparative between the vets and not actually a real go-through-with-it suspicion? 5**) Just to make it ultra-clear: Now that both DrH and BC are dead, do you think forumite/BM are mafia? Those questions feel wrong. They're not actually seeking information. Most of them just want Toad to say the same thing over again. Toad says x. Z-Boson asks, "So what you're saying is x?" That's a silly question, especially when you ask it 4 times or so. Either ask better questions, or follow-up, or SOMETHING.
Assorted Ephemera Lots of calling people out without calling them out. Poking around DarthPunk early, no followup. FoSes Maverick, references him throughout N1 and D2, but that's kind of it, willing to do BKE/grush. Doesn't buy BKE's claim, but hesitant to vote for him, seems like he's biding his time to see where things fall. Shady's meta is off, the end.
Finally, because I just can't help it + Show Spoiler +Z-BosoN. Z-Bo Son. We already talked about BM24 and basketball. Z-Bo = the nickname of Zach Randolph, another NBA player. Perhaps best known for previously being a bit of a loose cannon, punching a guy and getting suspended. Solid player now, but when he was younger, he was kind of chippy. Now seems to be more mature, really helping the Grizzlies.
Z-BosoN = Z-Bo's Son, an earlier Z-Bo. Back when he wasn't mature yet. Punching guys in the jaw, what a younger Z-Bo did, doesn't sound townie to me. It sounds scummy!
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On September 09 2012 03:37 Shady Sands wrote: I'm not convinced on Z-B being a scum because he had some pretty acrimonious exchanges with GK on D1. In all the games I've played, scum pretty much ignore each other D1, so that's a very strong town-tell in my books. Look at their filters.
The most acrimonious thing is GK FoSing Z-Boson. To which he responds with smilies.
GK points out that weird "If matt is town if matt is scum" post, but does nothing with it. I find no acrimonious exchanges, and only one real accusation that's just an FoS followed by smilies.
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On September 09 2012 03:47 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 03:40 austinmcc wrote:On September 09 2012 03:37 Shady Sands wrote: I'm not convinced on Z-B being a scum because he had some pretty acrimonious exchanges with GK on D1. In all the games I've played, scum pretty much ignore each other D1, so that's a very strong town-tell in my books. Look at their filters. The most acrimonious thing is GK FoSing Z-Boson. To which he responds with smilies. GK points out that weird "If matt is town if matt is scum" post, but does nothing with it. I find no acrimonious exchanges, and only one real accusation that's just an FoS followed by smilies. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=32#630This is what I was referring to. Still on a second look it does look weaker than I expected. Could be a distancing move, although at this point it's not enough for me to base a lynch upon (especially when BKE looks so scummy.) Going to take a nap now. That one has strong language, but nothing behind it.
Inconsistent, contradictory, post full of crap, your post has been quite suspicious...POOF. That's it. His conclusion is "you demonstrate a lack of reading and a lack of consistency."
Not that GK was scummy. Not that GK was scum. Just that GK didn't read, was inconsistent, contradictory, suspicious, and...nothing.
IF Z-BosoN was really calling out GK there, really making him seem scummy, really being acrimonious, wouldn't GK respond? Wouldn't he answer some of Z-BosoN's questions? Get upset that Z-BosoN found him scummy?
Cuz he didn't. At no point in time does he respond to that Z-BosoN post.
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On September 09 2012 03:56 Z-BosoN wrote: Tell me this: you mentioned you believe BKE without saying why. Have you read the case on him? Doesn't it strike you odd that he has an extremely scummy filter and gave off an extremely convenient claim? Also, why have you dismissed all the info on toad with a "We need a more proper case against him to lynch him". Then you come to me with a half-assed case hours before the deadline and insist that I should be lynched? Disregarding the fact that it's insulting, it is also hella suspicious and inconsistent with your stated view on lynching toad. Yes, I've read the cases on BKE. It strikes me as extremely normal that he has an extremely scummy filter.- I led a D1 lynch on him in my first newbie game. He was town. I thought he was scummy as hell.
- I believe he was lynched D1 in the game he played before that.
- He was a CONSTANT target in LVI, a D1 lynch target all the way through when a DT claimed a green check on him a few days in
So nope. Not surprised at all that he has a scummy filter.
Does it strike me as odd that he gave an extremely convenient claim? I disagree with your premise. "Extremely convenient claim." If he claimed vig, medic, JK, something that did something somewhere else, I'd have more trouble with it. He claimed to be on one of the two targets, which started a whole war about whether we got notifications, whether we maybe had a medic/JK protect, who had been suicided on, etc. That was NOT a convenient claim. A convenient claim would have been "I vigged ottoxlol." If you mean "convenient" as in "he claimed before he died," that's kind of the only time you can make a claim. He didn't claim right at the start, he waited, waited, claimed later. It's odd timing for a claim. I don't love it. WBG wrote a bunch of stuff on claims and timing and believability in...normal mini mafia II? Go read it.
I haven't dismissed the info with Toad. I can't get him lynched today. Whether he's town, scum, assassin, martian, whatever, we aren't lynching Toad today and we weren't lynching Toad today. He's good enough that it's going to take more than a single cycle to get anything much on him. Also, I was paranoid about him in LV, so me accusing Toad isn't particularly powerful.
You, on the other hand, are more outwardly scummy. You also have less pull in thread. I've also not read your games, but I know that Toad can probably fight a lynch pretty hard. Not sure whether you can or not.
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