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@ BM24
Agree with everything except for MiltonKram.
3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people.
I understand if you have more of a null read on him than I do, but "not scummy at all" seems ridiculous, given his bad D1 case and the fact that he fits "category 2" pretty well:
2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts
Milton has been lurking and hasn't contributed at all since he dropped his case on me - he only popped in once to question BillMurray.
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On September 06 2012 08:24 BlackMamba24 wrote: seriously, vigilantes need to kill ottox the dude is 100% scum please don't go retard-mode and think he's town over some wifom
I'm having second thoughts about ottox. He reads to me like a horrendously deluded townie.
Think about it - he hard defends Mattchew. That's absurd from a scum perspective - especially AFTER Mattchew was confirmed. It doesn't read like ottox really was playing with the extra information (knowing allignments), he would have STFU long ago.
Combined with the fact that he seems genuinely upset and has been pretty active, I'm going to retract my suspicions on him.
I think he's a bad bad bad townie. I'd much rather vigi-shot MiltonKram at this point, I'm wondering why you thought he wasn't scummy in your earlier post after the lynch.
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On September 06 2012 08:27 Bill Murray wrote: ohhhh i get the bm/bm/bc thing now yeah we're the 3 most obvious pro-town... regardless of alignment possibly toad or even hapahauli... austinmcc is very pro-town as well, but i'd like to see more one liners from him
For emphasis:
pro-town... regardless of alignment
You serious?
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On September 06 2012 08:48 BlackMamba24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:28 Hapahauli wrote:On September 06 2012 08:24 BlackMamba24 wrote: seriously, vigilantes need to kill ottox the dude is 100% scum please don't go retard-mode and think he's town over some wifom I'm having second thoughts about ottox. He reads to me like a horrendously deluded townie. Think about it - he hard defends Mattchew. That's absurd from a scum perspective - especially AFTER Mattchew was confirmed. It doesn't read like ottox really was playing with the extra information (knowing allignments), he would have STFU long ago. Combined with the fact that he seems genuinely upset and has been pretty active, I'm going to retract my suspicions on him. I think he's a bad bad bad townie. I'd much rather vigi-shot MiltonKram at this point, I'm wondering why you thought he wasn't scummy in your earlier post after the lynch. because there are clear and very mafia-aligned motivations behind what ottoxlol is doing that make zero sense from any other perspective "too scummy to be scum" is a BS argument dude, ottoxlol needs the noose
I know it's tempting to think so, but hard defending confirmed scum isn't at all scummy. It reads pretty bad townie actually.
Though quite frankly I'm shocked that you can't attribute any town motivation toward ottoxlol while thinking that MiltonKram isn't scummy, and attributing town motivations towards his actions.
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On September 06 2012 09:04 BlackMamba24 wrote: You're right, just because ottoxlol defended someone who flipped scum says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you paid attention, you'll notice that has very little to do with why I'm saying he's scum.
I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off.
You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times.
Regarding MiltonKram - Let's drop the bad case. He's still lurking and hasn't contributed anything to the thread other than his case. How on earth do you think he's town? I understand Null, but Town?!?
He even fits one of your categories quite well:
2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts
Regarding Ottoxlol - I was suspicious of him "not pushing his scumreads" as well, but upon a second readthrough, I find it more convincing that he got too caught up in his argument. He actually "pushes" Toadsstern quite a bit when you consider that he quotes and attacks a lot of Toad's posts whilst having his vote on Toad.
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On September 06 2012 09:19 BlackMamba24 wrote:So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas. Ottoxlol jumped on you immediately when you posted a picture like 10 seconds into the game before anything happened. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:34 Ottoxlol wrote: so many lurkers, no wonder scum is skewing the thread their way He's unreasonable and negative from the beginning. His case on Toadesstern consists of Toadesstern ignoring his questions but he did answer the questions. "Since no one made a case other than he's lying therefore scum. " This is untrue. He keeps repeating things like this that are false. Multiple people came up with other reasoning, especially me and BC. Later he lies and said I never explained my reasons even though I did, directly to him. He continues to get more and more belligerent. This is very odd behavior for someone who is simply defending "another townie". His only other attack on Toadesstern is "nice scum slip there". You think that counts as pushing? Sure, he was caught up in his argument but his argument was almost all straight up lying and ignoring people. He continues to say that no one has any reason and ignores me and BC saying over and over about Mattchew's lack of defense, lack of analysis, lack of any town actions behind his fake claim. You don't just look at a lie or a slip and lynch someone, but Mattchew had NOTHING that indicates a pro-town attitude behind it. Who gives up that quickly before the mod even confirmed the lie? Scum. It didn't make sense any other way but instead of finally responding to reasons beyond "he lied" he just ignores it and continues to say no one provided any.
We're interpreting Ottox's posts vastly differently here. Ignoring people and not reading the thread =/= scum (aren't you defending Mattchew on this basis?). Does Ottox seem like he's playing with extra information? Answer to that is no no and no.
So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas.
Mattchew is the definition of the playertype you criticized here:
2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts
...yet you don't think he's suspicious at all? There's no sane reason for you not to find him suspicious given your own analysis.
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On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote: Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire.
Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town.
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Wait hold up guys, I don't think that's a slip.
Mind you this all occurs before the flip. At that time, Ottox doesn't think Mattchew is town (hence his vote on Toadsstern and defends of Mattchew).
He calls Me and Toad two scum, and then 2 other scum lurkers. That's only 4 scum, and given how unlikely there are only 4 scum in a game of this size, I think it's him more not writing well than anything else.
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On September 06 2012 10:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 08:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 07:17 Ottoxlol wrote:On September 06 2012 07:03 Bill Murray wrote: Ottox you care to make a top 3 scumread like I have? sorry to say you need vigged, but it'd be better if you would stop posting, or actually.. you know... do some work by reading filters and making logical cases ...wow this looks like coaching. I see... I see... maybe I should ease up on my suspicion of Forumite.
Scum could easily just be playing the lurker game this game, but if that's the case, let 'em sit back while players like BC and Toad get confirmed. Toad is scum. Hapahauli confirmed my suspicions by his last post, he's purposely trying to skew the discussion. I think these two are defending their mates by not letting the Matt discussion go on -> the other 2 possibly are lurkers who voted on Matt with no real content. imallinson Z-BosoN Shady Sands DarthPunk ShiaoPi BlackMamba24 goodkarma all voted Matt after Palmar's announcment and provide little to no reasoning. Bad town or scum can easily be among them See I am not sure if anyone else caught this as I am still reading / catching up but no where in the OP does it tell me that I can see how many red's there are. As in town doesn't know how big the mafia team is. By telling us that happa + toad are defending matt and the other two are lurkers means you KNOW THERE ARE 5. So, I say we off you next. If Palmar said the exact scum team numbers somewhere I have missed I apologize for my outburst and will find other people to hang. For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town. Disagree. He clearly states defending their mates by not allowing the discussion to go on. The only person the discussion "defended" was mattchew. You nor toad were from what I read were defending a ton of people by shutting down that conversation, you were trying to stop dealing with a troll. The only person who was being defended in that entire conversation (by otto) was mattchew. We know mattchew was red, he gave 2 people ahead 2 people behind. I honestly believe its a scumslip I could have horribly misread it and if so I am certain more than you will inform me as such, however take this and apply it to everything said about otto by players like drH. Do you honestly see him otto as town? Can you explain his behaviour at all as something a town member would do. I sure as hell can't.
Disagree as well - "defending their mates" is very different from "defending Mattchew." Note that mates is plural. Then consider that he mentions 2 other scum lurkers. I think it's pretty clear what his intentions are.
But consider this hypothetical: 95% of the town thinks Player A is scum. Player A is confirmed scum. Hypothetical townie hard defends Player A. Does it make sense for this hypothetical townie to defend Player A when he's 100% sure to get lynched/shot the next day?
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Gaiz. Something's wrong with BlackMamba24/DoctorHelvetica (henceforth DrH).
I've been arguing with him back and forth about Miltonkram, and DrH has taken a wildly inconsistent stance on him throughout the game.
Note, that none of this depends on my read of Miltonkram - it's valid either way.
Here is DrH's first mention of MiltonKram:
On September 05 2012 09:11 BlackMamba24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote:On September 05 2012 07:15 Hapahauli wrote:On September 05 2012 07:08 Miltonkram wrote:@ Hapahauli I didn't intentionally misrepresent you. I thought Darth had voted Mattchew before the little back and forth between you two. I was tired after a long day of work, and so I got things mixed around. You can see how scummy that would make you look from my perspective when I first made the case against you. @ BC On September 05 2012 05:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote: Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa? I may be blind here, but where did Darth seriously push mattchew? I see him point out voting for someone who distrusted the claim as retarded and happa jump on him for it. Would that mean everyone who called me a liar for calling mattchews claim bullshit chain saw defending him? I honestly do not see this case you are seeing, I see two people moderately arguing over a choice of wording being in this case "retarded". Everything I can see (maybe my dyslexia is kicking in here) is that they argued over poor word choice and darth never stood down from his opinion, nor did happa. They commented on word choice, it was explained out by both people and once discussed they moved on. I honestly think unless you can provide me any real analysis here a new case as I just do not see or comprehend what you do here. I see your point. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. Problem is that it wasn't just the vote. You had a second bit as well, and that's way too coincidental: Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. Other than me not "seriously pursue[ing] a scum read" being absurd given the game length at the time (barely a few hours), you quoted the scumread I was pursuing in your own post. That's not just 1, but two lovely instances of you lying in the same post. The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation. Just like my early premature vote on Hapahauli in Death Note made me scum? It's not scummy. What's scummy, hapa, isn't his case, it's that he's avoiding talking about the relevant happenings in town and pointing out something completely different. Here's what happens when one scum has heat on him or one scum is majorly involved in some sort of town argument/drama: Little scum come out and say "oh, yeah this is interesting what's going on but look at random poster X, he did something kinda a little weird so we should lynch him instead!" And maybe it was a little weird. I personally don't like hapahauli's playstyle and it gave me the wrong impression of him in Death Note. A lot of people auto-assume I'm scum because I say policy lynches are stupid, I'll never vote for someone for lurking, I'll never post "reads", I don't answer peoples questions if I think they're dumb, etc. I think that Milton made a mistake worth looking into and if you couple that with the fact that he posted it how he did and when he did, yeah it's suspicious. I think vigilantes or trackers should take a serious look at this dude tonight. If Mattchew does flip blue or black or whatever though, then that means there isn't much of a case beyond someone made a kinda bad case or a mistake and that doesn't totally indicate alignment. Not enough to lynch him over all the shitstorm that will occur whenever mattchew flips what he does.
Lookie lookie - DrH think's Miltonkram is suspicious. Suspicious enough to suggest a tracker check on Miltonkram.
DrH doesn't mention Miltonkram again until this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=40#795
1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan
2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts
3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people.
Whatwhatwhatwhat?!!? This is a huge shift in attitude! It's almost as if DrH forgot he was suspicious of Miltonkram. Look at "point #2" and then at Miltonkram's filter - Miltonkram fits point number 2 to a tee, yet DrH thinks Milton isn't scummy at all!!!!!!
DrH continues to defend MiltonKram after this post. Notice that DrH is very reluctant to give a definitive read on Milton, and instead attacks me for "unjustly" tunneling him.
You're right, just because ottoxlol defended someone who flipped scum says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you paid attention, you'll notice that has very little to do with why I'm saying he's scum.
I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off.
You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times.
and don't coach me hapahauli please lol i've been here a while i don't need it
So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas.
Again, whether Milton is town or mafia, this is horrendously suspicious.
DrH made a sudden shift in suspicions for no rationale. In fact, his own analysis suggests that he should still find Milton suspicious. After I pointed out this contradiction, he was reluctant to give a definitive read on Milton and responded by attacking my play as opposed to clarifying his stance on Milton.
I want some answers from DrH
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On September 06 2012 10:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:24 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 10:15 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On September 06 2012 10:03 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 06 2012 09:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote: BC says the same thing i'm saying about how he lied about my arguments/activity level but I guess when he says it people agree
whatever
@boson my main case against ottox is him not pushing his reads and completely ignoring peoples arguments/logic while pushing his defense which is exactly what suggests that he has a preconceived agenda
no one is gonna listen to me in this game so ill keep doing what i'vebeen doing which is make a point, wait for BC to repeat it so that everyone suddenly agrees lol
Wtf?? He introduced a totally different argument!! Are you even reading right now? I got that from your post and I said those were supporting arguments but not enough to say omfg let's lynch him, due to my experience with SolarSail. However, the scumslip pointed out by BC is subtle and very VERY likely for a scum under pressure to make. the 5 mafia slip is the least important part of the whole thing because even I just assumed there were 5 scum, in fact idr if i posted it but i might have posted a scumteam guess that was exactly 5 Then why did you say that BC repeated your arguments and said the same thing you did? I clearly gave emphasis to the one he had just added. Well, we are just at a difference of opinion then, you think that his attitude and behavior is more lynch-worthy than him defending matt and this "scumslip". I insist yet again you read SolarSail on XXIV, here, it's pretty fast: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359489&user=273717 It sums up why I think his behavior could be more bad play than scum play. At least now we both agree that without a doubt loloxtott must die. Also I did endorse all of what he said so drH saying I repeated it isn't a lie. I also added the bit that I see as a scumslip. It isn't a lie, but I felt he directed it at me, and I made reference specifically to the "scumslip" you pointed out, while ALSO having responded to his claims, not yours. I can see a townie being a belligerent asshole. It becomes harder for me to see a townie being a belligerent asshole who spent much time hard defending a scum and gave a possible scumslip. Also, Hapa does have a point regarding the count. I didn't realize it was before the matt lynch. If he was claiming that matt is town, then by his count, the mafia number is 4. Has there ever been a normal game with only four mafia? Fair, but I feel from reading that people to a degree really are ignoring his posts overall. I say the # is 5 because the only person they could be defending by shutting down the mattchew conversation is mattchew. By shutting it down and stopping thread from talking about it it would allow anyone to bring up another case and potentially force a misslynch. Keep in mind the arguments being done by otto that were being responded to were still for ages under the hypothetical situation that millers were self aware -_- As such in the case of "self aware millers" the only person being defended by happa / toad was mattchew. As dropping that discussion would let another potential lynch target be brought up. However they were arguing shit for awhile that didn't matter or wasn't possible given this setup. IE he names 2 reds, the person they were defending and 2 others given his horrible logic. I obviously am slightly bias'd as I think he's red and that screams scumtell to me.
How do you explain the plural use of "mates"? If Ottox thought Matt was town at the time, why would "me and toad" be defending Matt?
What makes more sense, is that he thought Matt was town, and we were defending our "2 lurker scumbuddies" by pressuring Mattchew so much.
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@ BC
What do you think about my post on DrH here? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=46#916
As a further addendum, I'd also like to point out that MiltonKram didn't do anything of significance to absolve himself of DrH's suspicion between his sudden change in reads. Milton only tunneled me a bit and then retracted his read shortly after confronted. None of this should make him "clearly town" after DrH suggested a VigiShot/TrackerAction on him.
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On September 06 2012 11:06 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 06 2012 11:00 DarthPunk wrote:On September 06 2012 10:42 Ottoxlol wrote:Ofc I don't give a shit about this game anymore when everyone ignores logic, even you failed to answer my question about why the scum would claim. @Darth I already answered it. It is stupid. You almost uniquely amongst the player realize my motivation but then On September 06 2012 09:34 DarthPunk wrote: Yet his behaviour is at stark and direct opposition with his stated intention. He has absolutely crapped up the thread and actively limited discussion and scum hunting throughout day one. When I went to sleep yesterday the main topic of conversation were several people repeating themselves Ad nauseum and the direct consequence of this is that other topics of conversation have been drowned out in the noise. Now people may look at Ox and say that he is just a bad player or whatever, but when someone's stated motivations are in direct contradiction to his behaviour I see scum.
His defense of mattchew was incredibly wishy-washy in that he never explicitly states that he believes him to be town. He talks in probabilities and shifts the burden of proof onto others by asking 'why is it more likely for scum to do this than town?' whilst ignoring all rational explanations for the current situation. He has been incredibly effective in making discussion of anything other than mattchew impossible whilst stating that this is what he wants to avoid.
TLDR; Ox's behaviour is in direct contradiction with his stated motivations. He has crapped all over the thread in order to make any conversation but the one that was already resolved incredibly difficult. Kid is Scum. This. You fail to see that my behaviour made scum slip, made everyone talk more about why did they vote on Matt. Its exactly what my motivation was. I haven't been called kid in a while, it is offensive since you are the one incapable of understanding the most basic logic. Sorry if calling you kid offended you. Just internet slang. My bad. But I would like to ask how do you resolve your stated intention of not limiting discussion through the matt lynch, with crapping up the thread, ignoring everyones response to you, lying by saying they have not responded and stifling the discussion you claim to promote? You forgot that he said he doesn't care about the game. He obviously does though.
This - he might be playing wildly and showing a blatant disregard for reading, but he seems pretty emotionally invested.
Also, BC, I still really disagree with you on the "scumslip" thing (post below). I think it's pretty clear he was talking about 4 mafia, thus making it pretty unlikely that he knows the exact mafia total (given balance concerns)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#921
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On September 06 2012 11:23 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 11:23 ShiaoPi wrote: Also shouldn't lvdr be modkilled by now? no posts at all.
There are no activity requirements.
Voting is mandatory.
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On September 06 2012 11:59 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:23 Hapahauli wrote: But consider this hypothetical: 95% of the town thinks Player A is scum. Player A is confirmed scum. Hypothetical townie hard defends Player A. Does it make sense for this hypothetical townie to defend Player A when he's 100% sure to get lynched/shot the next day? I'm not discussing the numbers crap and the scumslip. However, this part of your post has been addressed by numerous folks. The explanation is the bit about how doing a scummy thing and then quickly backing down might have looked scummier, so he had to stick with it, which he proceeded to do vigorously.
As to your case on Steve Nash's teammate, I don't love it. I DO think that milton just got the times mixed up, that's a legitimate explanation from me. You can call it outright lying, but I just came from a game in which I thought 2 or 3 things had been said that weren't, and where one of our medics claimed to protect a dead person one night. I was town, he was town, we both "lied." It happens, and frankly, if you're talking about an actual fact (x happened before y), you're not talking about something scum can twist for their objectives, it doesn't really further scummy objectives when anyone can check the order and call you out. I think that's a legitimate reason to go into changing your read on someone, especially when almost 24 hours elapsed between the "vigis/trackers on this guy" post and the next mention. You can argue that if his read changed there should be a post when that happened, but...not enough for me to find Steve Nash's teammate scummy. Moreover, he had one of those little quotes that sticks out to me as something that only a townie could have written: Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 07:51 BlackMamba24 wrote: If you're unsure if someone is scum/assassin but have good reason to think they are scum, broadcast their case as an assassin so that assassins will hit the scum at night and help us win faster. That's not just an idea that should get you town cred, it's just a weird little thought thrown into a bigger post of his, and, in my mind, it's not what I'd come up with if I were just thinking about how to get townies to think I'm townie.
I've said all I need to say on Ottoxlol. Considering his emotionality and unreasonableness during his defense of Mattchew, it reads pretty clear to me that he doesn't know allignments. I doubt he's scum caught in bad allignments, considering how many opportunities town gave him to back off his reads. He could've taken any one of them and looked fine, not scummy as you suggest. Him hard-defending Mattchew is nonsensical from a scum perspective - it shouldn't even cross his mind to defend Mattchew once he's confirmed scum by the moderator if he knows player allignments!
As for my case on DrH, it has nothing to do with my suspicions on MiltonKram, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. It has everything to do with the sudden shift in suspicions. I realize 24 hours elapsed, but take a look at MiltonKram's filter. Between his case on me and his last post (neutral questioning of BillMurray), he does nothing to alleviate himself of suspicion or make him seem more townie.
Also, you missed a key part of one of DrH's posts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=40#795
1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan
2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts
3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people.
Look at point #2 - that's exactly what Miltonkram was doing, and in the very same post, he calls Mitonkram "not scummy at all." This makes absolutely no sense.
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Regarding the "Assassin" statement - I don't see that as a town read or not. It's, as you say, a "weird statement", and that's all I get from it.
Regarding the List - Again, I'm not saying that DrH needs to find Milton scummy. If he found Milton null, that would be fine, but "not scummy at all" is a blatant contradiction considering who he's suggesting the town to analyze. After that post, it would make more sense for him to take a closer look at Milton rather than give him a town read.
Regarding why it makes him "scummy": Well first off, I'm not suggesting a vigi-shot on DrH or anything like that. I just found something suspicious in his filter that I want him to answer (since he hadn't been answering before). As for why it makes him "scummy," my interpretation is that he forgot about his read on Milton. I've seen this read with more active-mafia metas in other games (See Risen forgetting his suspicions on ShadySands D1 of Deathnote Mini Mafia). Also, It makes sense, considering that he wanted to use "townie Milton" as an excuse to point suspicion at Bill Murray (point #3).
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Another point: I find it strange that DrH is willing to see "bad townie" in MiltonKram, but is completely unwilling to see any "bad townie" motivation in Ottoxlol. From my perspective, I think it's pretty clear that Ottoxlol is a deluded townie, and DrH really hasn't even considered the other side of things. He's been incredibly aggressive at getting Ottox vigi-killed - and this was all before BC brought up the 5-man team "scumslip" (which I still believe is a misinterpretation, but we've argued enough of that).
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On September 06 2012 12:51 Toadesstern wrote: Is Rewok a smurf or a new guy?
Judging from the filter and his /in post, he looks new:
Can I still /in? This sounds like fun.
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@ DrH - I'll drop it, that's pretty much all I needed from you - same type of defense as in DN + I'm willing to chalk an inconsistency up to active play. Might be something worth looking into if somehow you're alive on Day 4, but otherwise, I'm satisfied.
Still think you should reconsider ottoxlol, or atleast try to look through his filter through a townie perspective once. What you call "not pushing his reads" looks a lot like him getting lost and frustrated in an argument.
Lastly, I still want miltonkram to get shot up by a vig tonight. No changing that.
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On September 06 2012 13:37 Z-BosoN wrote: @Bill Murray I fail to see anything special on that interaction. Could you be more specific?
Also, I think I have a decent case on Maverick. He clearly showed that he isn't worried about scumhunting. For the third time, can any clear-thinking soul respond? ffs
Just read it.
Your premise is that he's defending himself more than he's scum-hunting, and I don't necessarily think that's a scummy trait. As a newer town player, it's pretty easy to only enter the thread when you get attacked.
In fact, he's pretty obsessed with defending himself whenever he makes a contribution - take a look at this:
That being said- I'd like to draw a little bit of attention to the first voter for whom I feel like I can make an actual observation on- Toadesstern.
The reason I want to focus on that is just because of the speed at which he strikes out just makes me wonder why that's beneficial from a town perspective? And I'm just wondering if he just wanted to try to promote chaos right away?? Also- consistently attacking other posters seems to be a trend....
This reads as really townie to me - it's not a good "case" by any means, but he shows a trend of sounding legitimately offended that people are voting for him.
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