|
On September 04 2012 12:35 Hapahauli wrote: @ BC
Regarding the "Nosy Neighbor" claim, I just can't see mafia doing that. If the role isn't self-aware as you suggest, aren't you just shooting yourself in the foot from a mafia perspective? Because if no one else claims, you get auto-lynched.
Not for sure. Some people will never claim publically until heat is on them simple. As for auto lynched? I am the only person who even made a comment on the claim, no one even thought to figure out if it was fake or not, it was accepted as fact and everyone near moved on till I pointed it out.
That claim had no one touched if he visits someone lets him off the hook as no one second guessed or batted an eye at it later or prompted this argument later and his team claims once and hes off the hook for sure until he or his partner dies.
|
Thank you Mr Palmar for clearing the up the little situation.
DrH I hope you now understand why I could only say what I did, and was moderately infuriating to be so limited.
However, as everyone has seen and as drh was kind enough to point out in this post
On September 04 2012 20:46 BlackMamba24 wrote: Oh, some suspicious notes about Mattchew before I go to bed
1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt?
2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something
3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it
i guess it comes down to what mattchew claims now
if he flips blue then that doesn't tell me anything about anyone else here really except for people who didn't say anything about mattchew until after palmar confirmed the bit about the nosy neighbor so i guess we will just have to take it as a lesson for blues from now on to be a bit more careful
i really just don't understand #3 but i have seen scum kinda give up when they get caught in lies before or martyr themselves so maybe it isn't so strange after all
Personally when I saw that he refused to admit that he was lying (had to wait for a mod to clear the air) it was a clear sign he wasn't town. If he was town he would have outted himself since he got caught instead of waiting. Lack of posting or solid defense / admission = scum imo
I will be jetting off to work and will have more time to actively sort through all the posts after that but there are a few people imo who have made some pretty shady posts.
|
On September 05 2012 05:16 grush57 wrote: And all of you new players as town you gotta make stances, lists of reads do jack shit. A lot of you are sounding scummy and probably just because you're new, but actually town.
Please follow your own advice. I see very little stance making in your filter and a ton of meh posting.
I know this is part of how you post, but please don't tell others to do what you aren't doing yourself. Lead by example and so on and so forth.
Besides, "coaching" people how to play is typically something done by mafia to feign real activity / helpfullness to the town while providing nothing substantial at all to the game. As a more experienced player you should be aware of this, and before you go "well it was just this one post"
On September 04 2012 07:53 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 07:48 Toadesstern wrote: The meaning was that I think he's a town blue and I therefore want to kill him as quickly as possible.
Or perhaps I don't like people pointing out useless stuff that has nothing to do with the game. I guess it has but what are we supposed to talk about the 2KP change or the vig addition he mentioned. Well, there is nothing else to talk about then until a scumslip or something. Talking about rules and such is how you figure out people stances and opinions which leads to finding out who is playing like town and who is playing like scum.
On September 04 2012 08:26 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:24 Shady Sands wrote:On September 04 2012 08:20 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:02 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum? Errr... well I wasn't planning on anyone taking that image seriously. I hate town circles. They're distracting to discussion and give people easy outs to "look" townie by "contributing" as opposed to scumhunting. I hate blue-oriented discussion in general really - it makes it easier for mafia to snipe blue roles by testing player reactions. Hell the idea of publicly determining blue actions is silly, considering it gives mafia the one information advantage that town has over mafia. Could you clarify what you mean by this point? Basically when someone goes and says "I got roleblocked" or "I was hit as a vet last night" scum now know something that previously only a townie knew. I don't think this is true all the time, as sometimes it's critical to get this info out to the rest of town, but I can see where Hapa is coming from NONONOONONO As town ALWAYS tell town if you got hit/roleblocked unless some weird setup or something.
On September 04 2012 09:27 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 08:30 Shady Sands wrote:On September 04 2012 08:26 grush57 wrote:On September 04 2012 08:24 Shady Sands wrote:On September 04 2012 08:20 slOosh wrote:On September 04 2012 08:02 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum? Errr... well I wasn't planning on anyone taking that image seriously. I hate town circles. They're distracting to discussion and give people easy outs to "look" townie by "contributing" as opposed to scumhunting. I hate blue-oriented discussion in general really - it makes it easier for mafia to snipe blue roles by testing player reactions. Hell the idea of publicly determining blue actions is silly, considering it gives mafia the one information advantage that town has over mafia. Could you clarify what you mean by this point? Basically when someone goes and says "I got roleblocked" or "I was hit as a vet last night" scum now know something that previously only a townie knew. I don't think this is true all the time, as sometimes it's critical to get this info out to the rest of town, but I can see where Hapa is coming from NONONOONONO As town ALWAYS tell town if you got hit/roleblocked unless some weird setup or something. Why? Town needs all the information possible. Mafia will already know this information.If it was a blue vigi shot then the blue willl already know and they won't have to tell town without outing themselves. Mafia will know if there were vigi shots because they killed the other people.
Now, these are just a few of your "contributing" posts. Most of which are extremely void of anything substantial whatsoever. The remainder of your posts are spam and provide basically nothing as a read of you. These however are a very good example of your alignment. Why? Because for someone who talks about wanting people to have as much information as possible, or being able to determine stances of people. YOU DO NEITHER. You have no solid outlined stances, you have not helped at all in further discussion thus giving more information. If you were actually intending on helping you would do exactly what you tell others to do or explain how others can do the same thing.
|
On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote: Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa?
I may be blind here, but where did Darth seriously push mattchew? I see him point out voting for someone who distrusted the claim as retarded and happa jump on him for it. Would that mean everyone who called me a liar for calling mattchews claim bullshit chain saw defending him?
I honestly do not see this case you are seeing, I see two people moderately arguing over a choice of wording being in this case "retarded".
Everything I can see (maybe my dyslexia is kicking in here) is that they argued over poor word choice and darth never stood down from his opinion, nor did happa. They commented on word choice, it was explained out by both people and once discussed they moved on.
I honestly think unless you can provide me any real analysis here a new case as I just do not see or comprehend what you do here.
|
On September 05 2012 05:41 Gravan wrote: This post is passive and is just here to give you guys some information about me.
I am reading through all the filters and will be making a real contributive post sometime soon. I haven't been keeping up with this thread as well as I ought to have. For some reason, I can't seem to access the voting link from my phone - I am trying to work out when the vote is due, but I will be submitting one in a few hours after reading and pondering, once I get back to my computer. I hope I am not missing a deadline because I really would not like to be modkilled so early on.
I am done traveling after today, so I will be properly active very shortly. Sorry for lurking and not contributing.
Again, sorry for the spam, hello and expect to start hearing from me.
You have one cycle. If you fail to contribute into the night period you should be vigi'd for not following through on your promise.
All vigi's / hatters mark this target, if he fails to contribute please deal with him.
|
On September 05 2012 05:44 Bill Murray wrote: BC says coaching is scum
bc coaches grush in the same post *facepalm* smh
not so much coaching as it is me saying that I am watching him
I have to explain my reasoning to people or I get auto attacked remember?
|
On September 05 2012 05:52 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 05:41 Gravan wrote: This post is passive and is just here to give you guys some information about me.
I am reading through all the filters and will be making a real contributive post sometime soon. I haven't been keeping up with this thread as well as I ought to have. For some reason, I can't seem to access the voting link from my phone - I am trying to work out when the vote is due, but I will be submitting one in a few hours after reading and pondering, once I get back to my computer. I hope I am not missing a deadline because I really would not like to be modkilled so early on.
I am done traveling after today, so I will be properly active very shortly. Sorry for lurking and not contributing.
Again, sorry for the spam, hello and expect to start hearing from me. You have one cycle. If you fail to contribute into the night period you should be vigi'd for not following through on your promise. All vigi's / hatters mark this target, if he fails to contribute please deal with him. I disagree. His post feels sincere to me. He is letting us know why he hasn't been posting, is apologetic, and truly American. I don't even care if he's European, dammit, he's acting American. It doesn't matter where he's from. Why would you want to vig him for this, when you have people like Maverick defending Mattchew?
new player, promising to be active, and if he fails to deliver shoot him. I am not saying do it right this second, I am saying if he fails to honor what he just said to shoot him. You and I both know my rationale for this as it is the most common newbie/lurky mafia trick in the book. If he comes back and follows through on said promise guy is most likely town. I however tend to lock onto people who make this promise and never contribute as it is almost 100% sign of mafia lurker.
It is me pointing out this post to whoever has a gun to be watching this player closely.
|
On September 05 2012 05:51 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote: Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa? I may be blind here, but where did Darth seriously push mattchew? I see him point out voting for someone who distrusted the claim as retarded and happa jump on him for it. Would that mean everyone who called me a liar for calling mattchews claim bullshit chain saw defending him? I honestly do not see this case you are seeing, I see two people moderately arguing over a choice of wording being in this case "retarded". Everything I can see (maybe my dyslexia is kicking in here) is that they argued over poor word choice and darth never stood down from his opinion, nor did happa. They commented on word choice, it was explained out by both people and once discussed they moved on. I honestly think unless you can provide me any real analysis here a new case as I just do not see or comprehend what you do here. I see. See, what is happening here is both distancing and trying to divert the wagon. Hapahauli also has scummy interaction with Doyouhas in the said suspicious post. Doyouhas's vote on me early reeks of scum pushing policy on town feels like a bus... Hapahauli has bad language use which makes him look like scum.
Possibly but you are giving me reasons in this post that are not really the ones that miltonkram is talking about. Given the specific case he provided I cannot say hapa is scum based on those reasons. Do I think he has had odd interactions? yes, but I think many players this game have done weird shit.
DrH, Sloosh, Strongandbig and you BM are the only ones making posts that I understand why you would make them regardless of your alignment. Newer players still have the "not sure if you are new or scum" read at first as newbies make horrible mistakes that make them look red when they are town sometimes.
I am going to continue reading the thread to find anything that pops out to me and do as I have thus far and commented on it if I believe it needs it but so far most "cases" made are imo are somewhat stretchy however its day 1 and thats to be expected. The fact people are trying to find scum actively does make me insanely happy though, it feels like there will be near to no non posters thus far.
|
On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite
Only real issue I have with this is that he didn't misread the setup to my knowledge. The setup was completely ambiguous on the Nosy Neighbor and required a mod to come in and clarify the situation.
Aside from that I do get how you made the connections you did although he doesn't neccesarily have a scum role as my understanding of the setup would be mafia choose who makes a night KP given that no mafia can be responsible for more than 1 shot according to that mafia KP change. Thus any "non visiting mafia" would be "cleared" from suspicion.
|
On September 05 2012 06:18 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 06:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 05:57 Bill Murray wrote:On September 04 2012 09:36 Forumite wrote:On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well.
The reason people policy lynch people like BM and Grush is because they get by into later in the game because they are unreadable. This is because they barely actually play the game and if you end up in lylo with one of them left, you've basically already lost. I completely understand anyone wanting to policy lynch them, but we should also not allow them to be off the hook for some sort of scum read during the day.
That being said, I remember thinking to myself that I don't hate BM's play in the last few games I have been in with him. I do not want to policy lynch today.
Why would you claim this? You eliminated yourself as a possible blue from scums list of townies, and it´s not like you doing this eliminates you as a scum suspect. If someone see you visiting a player who dies the we´re lynching you anyway. check this scummy post from forumite 1) misreads the setup 2) attacks him with a smirk for the claim, which looks scummy as shit 3) takes the visiting thing a step further, saying "if they die" which clears a ton of scum roles... forumite is scum with a role FoS: Forumite Only real issue I have with this is that he didn't misread the setup to my knowledge. The setup was completely ambiguous on the Nosy Neighbor and required a mod to come in and clarify the situation. Aside from that I do get how you made the connections you did although he doesn't neccesarily have a scum role as my understanding of the setup would be mafia choose who makes a night KP given that no mafia can be responsible for more than 1 shot according to that mafia KP change. Thus any "non visiting mafia" would be "cleared" from suspicion. A mafia with a role can both use his action and take a shot. As an example, the mafia Vig can 'visit' and shoot two different players in the same night. I don't follow how the Scum KP mechanics make it unlikely that Forumite (or any potential scum) would NOT have a role, or for example, how a goon who stays home is cleared.
On September 03 2012 22:12 Palmar wrote: Due to slight setup tweaks, mafia now has permanent 2kp. It will not change over the course of the game. Take note, however, that no member of the mafia can deliver more than 1 kp, so effectively the mafia will drop to 1kp when there is only one member left.
The way that reads to me is no single member can deliver more than 1 kp. All I got is the OP + that quote to bank my comment off which states no mafia can deliver more than 1 kp. I would think this means a mafia vig can only use his power or shoot with mafia base KP. I could be wrong I am basing this off on the OP.
As for how a "goon" is cleared it means that they would not be suspected of a shot on dead player x. Watchers only see who visits and a tracker only follows one player. Given that a generic goon can sit his ass at home all game and never be caught on those reasons. As for my point of that forumite doesn't neccesarily have a scum role is that post BM quoted does not scream "i have a scum role" to me.
|
BM, he thinks newbie games existed when you first started here har har har har har
You be thought to be a newbie yo.
|
On September 05 2012 06:43 Hapahauli wrote: @ BC
Since you're in the thread, what you think of miltonkram? I've think I've lined out why he's scummy pretty well, and I'd like to hear some thoughts from other players.
either scum or town trying really hard to find reasons to justify his read of you. I don't think what he has posted is enough to go on. I say this purely because I have never seen him play before thus have no idea if he knows better then to stretch a generic situation of word choice into the case he did. If he is still new enough to not realize how bad that was then he could be town. If he is experienced enough to know better then possibly scum but still possible bad town. I would like to see him post more than his cases on you and his responses to people asking him for answers before making up my mind.
If you notice I already did address his case on you and said it was lacking.
|
Well if he thinks your scum, hes going to ignore your posts against him, or at least treat them with extreme bias. Notice he responds to someone else when they poke at his case and even makes mention of asking if someone else has an issue (grush I believe).
What you or I perceive as bad doesn't mean the person who makes the case does. Getting caught up in the heat of the moment or when you are so sure you are right leads you to do in some cases dumb things as town. Mafia making these mistakes this early is possible as well but seems pretty dumb to do given the current day events. I honestly need him to post more before I can be assured of his guilt as well townies do make bad cases.
|
On September 05 2012 09:06 BlackMamba24 wrote: I just woke up. I'm still catching up but here's my sense of where the game is:
1. Mattchew is an assassin and the scum are the people who came in after the fact or way after the fact and voted without saying a lot. They didn't think critically about the situation and say things like "well he lied....so ##vote mattchew".
2. Mattchew is scum and people who defended him today (post-Palmar) and people who come in way way way after the fact with more empty posts and bullshit (cough...grush57...cough) need to be tracked or vig'd. If Mattchew flips red then Ottoxlol needs to die tonight and so does either Miltonkram or Maverick. The chances that the whole scum team is pinned Day 1 doubtlessly? Pretty slim. In a situation like this, I think at least one will go rogue or try to buddy up to me. I am pretty wary of Bill Murray so there's that.
Not really useful but: I think Rewok could be an assassin, there are no town motivations to his posts whatsoever but not really any scum ones because they are too bad. I don't feel he has any town motivations but I also sense little to no direction in his posting. Assassins you might want to hit him. Same thing with any super lurkers or people like Gravan.
By the way: NEVER LYNCH ASSASSINS IF YOU"RE SURE THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. One of the most frustrating games I've ever played was one where everyone wanted to lynch a confirmed assassin because "we lynch anyone not pro-town". No, we lynch SCUM and ONLY SCUM.
I've read a little while writing this post so as an addendum, ottoxlol's early defense of mattchew basically comes down to some weak conditional things that I already said like "yeah he could be a tracker or something trying to blah blah blah" but the simplest answer is more often than right one. Maybe he is a dumb tracker or a dumb assassin, but the simpler answer is better. The fact that he isn't here defending himself well either speaks volumes. the less information he gives us, the better, right? Of all the things you could have said to defend him, the fact that he chose some weak hypothetical that I had already considered when voting for him is bullshit. Kill this kid if Matt flips red.
the biggest change I would make to this is. If its day 1 (like today) and your options are sure kill on assassin or random lynch on someone who could flip town (day 1 reasoning's for lynches usually aren't the best) then I'd take the assassin.
Only reason for this is if you aren't sure on your lynch choice and the option is deff not a townie I would opt for that.
I also think I know what game you are referencing.
What do you think of the last page or two's worth of posts? There has been some moderately decentish talking compared to last night.
|
On September 05 2012 09:17 Ottoxlol wrote: I just don't get it. Why is it simpler to fuck up as scum? Tell me "kid". I went into the whole hypotethical thing because I was discussing why would a nonscum Matt fake-claim. So why would a scum Matt fake-claim? if this was a selfaware miller game, a tracker could very well track him n1 then if he's scum it would be revealed.
Think of it this way. It was a question never answered by Palmar in thread.
Now, most people (even if self aware miller) tend to not claim as even if they do claim people tend to not take them seriously unless a group of them does it. Now, when one person claims, you can gauge the towns reaction and then to prove that millers are self aware the scum team slowly "claims". Basically you can have an entire team or 2-3 people out themselves in this manner and be given a full get out of lynch free card should the people they visit die for a night or two. This may not seem to be much but it means later on in the game people start arguing about if the claims are legit, are only some of them legit, etc....
It makes no sense for town to fakeclaim but in an setup that was so ambiguous it would be a brilliant move if you could pull it off. My only frustration is I could have potentially snagged more than just him had I waited longer before calling him out.
|
On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote:I would agree with Hapa that Mattchew is almost a 100% scum read. He's done a good job of highlighting why. But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2. Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste. On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons. As for things that have stood out to me: -Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum. -BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one. Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 12:05 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 12:00 goodkarma wrote:@BlackMamba:On September 04 2012 11:30 BlackMamba24 wrote:On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote:Hey all A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson Can you explain why it's scum motivated? Why does scum want sloosh out of the game when all he's doing is arguing with Toadesstern and asking dumb questions First, I'd like to specify that asking questions that get others to discuss their reads on other players, or to defend themselves for something suspicious said in their posts, is not "dumb." I in fact find it suspicious from a townie perspective to call many of the lines of questioning recently presented in this thread as "dumb," since so far most of it has produced productive discussion. From a scum perspective, though, a statement like this does make sense. Scum has the knowledge of who is and isn't scum, so to them watching people they know to be town attacking each other could look pretty "dumb." Second, at the time I posted that sloosh was one of the most outspoken people in the game. From a scum perspective, it would make sense to remove an outspoken person day one. Especially if said person was furthering discussion by poking and prodding others with a lot of questions. While we're at it, I'd like to ask about this: On September 04 2012 11:34 BlackMamba24 wrote: Anyway - ##vote BloodyC0bbler. Nosy Neigbor specifies that you will not know who you visited, not "you will not know that you are the nosy neighbor" which implies that they would at least know they are the nosy neighbor.
Nosy Neighbor makes a lot of sense as a scum fakeclaim it's probably what I would claim if I had to and thinking about SNB from Death Note mafia I have no reason to implicitly trust mattchew but the fact that you're throwing suspicion on him this early and this stupidly is completely consistent with your scum meta so bye What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it. because BC is full of shit and also making up stuff mattchew never said i'll never policy vote, i hate even reading the words next to each other i respectfully disagree about sloosh and how productive he has been but i'm not going to argue about it. i won't say anything about my read on him or toadesstern right now. hope that satisfies you I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town. ##FoS: BlackMamba I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share.
BM24 (DrH) has perfectly sound reasoning for voting for me as he did. Burden of proof was on me, I couldn't provide it or i'd be rule violating and thus most likely modkilled or punished. Palmar coming into the thread with his announcement is the only reason I am not swinging from the gallows or that we aren't arguing like mad over setup issues. I also in the heat of the moment skimmed the rest of a post and misread it and basically bullshitted something not said. DrH was fully within his right to doubt my intentions given the situation, hell everyone would have been within their rights to.
I dislike extremely your coming to the "aid" of hapa. It imo was not clearly illustrated by him why mattchew must be scum. It was outed by me and explained by many people and giving sole credit to someone who is at this time under a strong amount of pressure is curious to me. You also prove you have not been closely reading the thread. Why? Because grush has in fact posted. Thus he is not likely to be modkilled. This is your main reason for poking at him but it is clearly wrong.
I also don't know why you have avoided talking about key points mentioned in thread or why you chose to give a semi lurker list while giving a pass to one of them. Why mention him if you think he has a valid reason for not posting?
I think you made a post that most likely took you alot of time but it comes off as very "crafted" and overall has a sense of offness to it.
|
On September 05 2012 09:32 Ottoxlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 09:17 Ottoxlol wrote: I just don't get it. Why is it simpler to fuck up as scum? Tell me "kid". I went into the whole hypotethical thing because I was discussing why would a nonscum Matt fake-claim. So why would a scum Matt fake-claim? if this was a selfaware miller game, a tracker could very well track him n1 then if he's scum it would be revealed. Think of it this way. It was a question never answered by Palmar in thread. Now, most people (even if self aware miller) tend to not claim as even if they do claim people tend to not take them seriously unless a group of them does it. Now, when one person claims, you can gauge the towns reaction and then to prove that millers are self aware the scum team slowly "claims". Basically you can have an entire team or 2-3 people out themselves in this manner and be given a full get out of lynch free card should the people they visit die for a night or two. This may not seem to be much but it means later on in the game people start arguing about if the claims are legit, are only some of them legit, etc.... It makes no sense for town to fakeclaim but in an setup that was so ambiguous it would be a brilliant move if you could pull it off. My only frustration is I could have potentially snagged more than just him had I waited longer before calling him out. why would they get out of any lynch if someone they visited died?
2-3 people claim nosy. Tracker or watcher sees one of them go to someone who dies. They claimed nosy, we accepted the claim as legit. It means an entire day will be spent clusterfucked around who did what or the like.
As they claim nosy, if its accepted near no tracker will check them so only a watcher will see them and if he sees 2 people visit someone who dies the non claimer will be the one killed. Even if you figure out that 1 person lied, you won't know if the others did as we have no idea on the setup numbers.
As such the likelyhood of town offing them is insanely lowered unless they get bad luck by being seen by a watcher where only they visit x player.
|
On September 05 2012 09:38 Gravan wrote:First, the straightforward part. It seems to me that Matt is most likely an assassin, or a very careless player. As many have said before me, there is no case for him to do what he did from a town perspective. To me, it seems that if he were mafia or town, we would likely have seen at least some kind of attempt at an explanation - either to strengthen his fellow mafia by giving them 'towncred' as they jump on his bandwagon or to try to convince us we are making a mistake as a town blue. As an assassin, he could just be seeing his end and giving up - this is of course moot if he decides to put in his piece later. Since he is apparently not a random newbie (who is a random newb, anyway ?), and clearly likes to be an active player, it shouts assasinto me. Since it is day 1 and we only have so much information, we essentially have to lynch him anyway (even if we were nearly certain he is an assassin. At this time, I'll be throwing my vote his way. The post where I make my comments on the information currently present (as in, not to do with the matt bandwagon) is coming up later. I just wanted to put down somehing somewhat solid so thanI can start to develop a post hostory, watery as it might be.
If you want to make a post history that isn't full of "filler" posts you need to post content. You just rehashed what others have said before.
As an assassin hes dead, as scum hes dead. If he was town he would be fighting tooth and nail in some way to get his ass out of this mess, or at least rectify the mistake he made. If he flips town I can honestly say the level of rage all of us will have will be insane.
As such I firmly believe he will only flip mafia/assassin with a far higher likelyhood of scum. Why? Because if he was an assassin he still wouldn't claim Nosy Neighbor. It makes no sense to. He is immune to night hits, and until he finds an assassin he would never shoot. In event he is outed as someone he checked dies? Fucking claim his role. He then outs his checks of who isn't third party and voila. Third party has no need to fake claim ever.
It only makes sense for a mafia to claim the role. Near no one thought to clarify on the setup and would have been convinced neighbors were self aware and caused mass issues for us later.
You much like the other person I just responded two both just made very badly timed posts to my senses as they both said near nothing helpful.
|
On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote: Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs.
Did you just ask us to figure out a different lynch target because you just asked us to get a new one and this seems fishy as fuck.
|
On September 05 2012 09:50 Rewok wrote: EBWOP: We obv don't want to start roleclaiming, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to give our potential vigilante a target for today / tonight. Any ideas?
I am pretty sure that we have plenty of people who are good targets. Hell we have tons of people analyzing or finger pointing at eachother who all in some way link back to our central lynch target. A ton of people are going to look good or bad after this lynch.
|
|
|
|