Newbie Mini Mafia VIII - Page 4
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Acrofales
Spain17186 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17186 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17186 Posts
I have thought about yesterday and realised that a couple of my assumptions about mafia behaviour are probably too strong. I have been focusing on the mafia agenda of getting townies lynched. I reread Incognito's general guide and realised I have been focusing too much on trying to find mafia defending each other. That may not even have been necessary. Lets take another look at the D2 events. The first thing that happened was that Dittert came under pressure. Regardless of whether Dittert is town, or scum, there was plenty of time in the day for mafia to turn that around. HiroPro posted his suspicions of Xatalos. At the time there were two possible explanations: HiroPro was town and convinced he had a scumread on Xatalos, or HiroPro was scum and pushing Xatalos for his own agenda. We now know that the former was the case. The second event was that the suspicions of town moved from Dittert to Xatalos and the town went completely silent. This seems to me to lead to one of three inevitable conclusions: 1. Xatalos is town and mafia was content to just let the lynch happen. 2. Xatalos is scum and mafia was hoping someone like me stepped in... or were waiting a little bit longer to do it themselves. 3. Xatalos and Acrofales are scumbuddies. Now, I happen to know that the third scenario is false, but feel free to convince yourselves of that fact. I'll be here to answer all your questions and accusations. I thought I had the game completely figured out, but I clearly don't and other people's opinions are most welcome. That leaves the former two as possibilities. I am slightly inclined toward the former, because the second situation implies a LOT of risk. The third event of the day was that I posted this reasoning, and drew the conclusion that HiroPro and Dittert were a possible scum axis. This was clearly wrong, but I still think my reasoning about Xatalos is probably right. Looking over the scum guides and the two games I have played as scum, mafia really dislike to put their opinion out there. There are LOTS of things I don't like about Xatalos' play, but there is one thing he has undeniably done: he is flapping his mouth about every little thing he can think of in this game. He has either improved his scumplay IMMENSELY since GoT mafia, or he is town. I am not normally a fan of meta-arguments, but his play is so different from in GoT, that he is either a chameleon, or town. That leaves the last little bit of the game yesterday. Everybody jumped on the HiroPro bandwagon because of my convincing arguments and my rather hastily thrown together case (and other people's cases too). The only conclusion I can draw from that at the moment (I promise more in my nightly reads post) is that HiroPro did not play his town role particularly well. That was the real eye opener to me: I have been using reasoning and logic to analyse others' playstyle and rational approach to this game. I have been focusing too hard on what people are saying and not when they are saying it. I have some new suspicions, that I promise to post in my nightly reads. However, before the night ends, I want to do something I was actually rather opposed to. I want to call out a possible vigilante to please shoot Dittert. Regardless of his alignment, he is not helping town. Here is my case on why Dittert needs to be shot, regardless of his alignment. Because I am completely and utterly null on Dittert, I will assume the worst case scenario, which is that he is town. Tomorrow we will be at lylo. That means we lynch scum, or lose. This, as someone (willz, I think) pointed out, is regardless of whether we shoot a townie or not. Conclusion: the vig MUST shoot tonight, and imho he should shoot Dittert. Dittert has not been contributing. He has been attacked and defended a number of times by different people, making him a good source of information. However, most importantly is the vote count. If we are onto scum tomorrow, scum will NOT vote for him. Assuming all scum is alive, that leaves 3 votes on a townie. Dittert has guaranteed his absence from the voting the last two days. His last post on D1 was at 22:54 (9 hours before the deadline) and his last post on D2 was at 00:53 (7 hours before the deadline). Both times town switched in the last few hours before the deadline and Dittert was not around to comment, steer us back on track or agree and vote with town. That means that if we find scum after Dittert has left to work, it is one less vote to count on switching, leaving it 4 town votes and 3 scum votes: the exact same situation as if we shoot him. If we shoot someone ELSE who turns out to be town, that's 3 town votes and 3 scum votes. Ergo, a race against the clock to get our votes on scum before they vote for the townie (or blindly following whoever Dittert votes for, which I am unwilling to do). So, vig, either be 100% certain you are shooting scum, or shoot Dittert: 1. He has a good chance of being scum (50/50 in my book at the moment, which is remarkably one of my best scum reads: my confidence has been damaged since my completely wrong read yesterday and am in the process of reevaluating) 2. He would give town some good info by flipping 3. He is a liability to town due to his prolonged absense around the deadline (timezones suck, I know). | ||
Acrofales
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On April 17 2012 07:59 HiroPro wrote: The Last Will and Testament of HiroPro Given that this is the last will of a townie, I think it is only fair I address it. Lynch Xatalos. Easy step. Obviously you do that first thing in the daytime. Don't listen to anything he has to say. Don't address him or tell him anything; just lynch him. I don't disagree that Xatalos needs another look at. I am not convinced he's town, but as I said in my previous post, I find it very unlikely that he his scum, given the complete lack of people willing to defend him from Hiro's accusations, which was quite a good case. While I was not expecting a chainsaw defense, I would have expected someone to refer back to Dittert and why he was so scummy once the Xatalos bandwagon was going nicely. The problem with a Xatalos scum is thus not that he is unscummy, it's that he seems to be playing alone. Add that to his completely different meta and I am for now willing to believe Xata is town. DO NOT LISTEN TO WHAT ACROFALES SAYS. I know many of you have Acrofales as a very strong town read. I don't; Acrofales has been a scum read in my notes since day 1. I don't have the time to fully outline a case against Acrofales, but I'll try to summarize my thoughts here. Read through his filter closely. Please do. I agree that my analysis on HiroPro was completely and utterly wrong. I found a group of 5 players in which I thought it was likely the scum was hiding (I was wrong in discarding Dittert, so it was actually 6 players). I may have gotten confirmation bias, or I just had a completely faulty read on HiroPro because his playstyle is quite erratic. In either case, I made a mistake and realise that my pushing the case on a townie makes me suspect. I don't want to be blindly sheeped. I want everybody here to play the game actively, posting their reads and analyses, asking each other questions and trying to hunt scum. There was quite a lack of scumhunting in D2. Acrofales does not post actual analysis; instead what he does is call out certain people who are not posting and then proceed to make "connections" between certain people who he will arbitrarily label as scummy. Huh? I don't think you have understood my posts at ALL if that is what you think. If you don't understand the logic in one of my posts, I am happy to explain it, but I have so far posted exactly what I am understanding of people's play and motivations. There is definitely nothing "arbitrary" about it. Nevertheless, I am not going to argue that my non-arbitrariness is townie. I make very deliberate posts regardless of my alignment. The townie part comes from the fact that rather than searching for the player who I can most easily label as scum and focusing on his bad behaviour, as I do as scum, I have been actively analysing ALL players in the game and trying to find which is scummiest, even if the case is not an easy one to make. By basing all of his cases on these "connections", Acrofales avoids taking responsibility for votes and reads. Everything is already set out for him and indisputable. Au contraire, my dear fellow. I lay out my assumptions and the entire logical reasoning. Everybody can follow it and draw their own conclusions. I would be VERY happy to be discussing this with anyone. I believe my connections make sense, but my logic is NOT infallible as imallison kindly pointed out. I would love for people to poke holes in it. It should also not be taken ALONE. If you look at the way I used the information: I analysed the connections, drew my conclusions and went over people's filters to see who I thought was most likely to be scum. Unfortunately, I was completely wrong on that account. And with me, at least 3 other townies (7 votes, of which 3 may or may not be scum). These connection posts do not help town; all they do is get people speculating on which people are sided with certain other people and thus must be either both town or both mafia. It distracts from actual reads and scum-hunting. I once again disagree. Voting analysis to find connections is a valid style of scumhunting and has been applied successfully in quite a variety of mafia games here, although it works best after actually finding a mafia. It has a high degree of speculation, but lets be honest, so does textual analysis of someone's filter. Now I know I may not convince you, so here is people discussing it on mafiascum: clicky. I do think that my assumptions may be wrong. I can think of some reasons to voteswitch as mafia, if the two targets are both innocent. This guy's role is the deceiver. + Show Spoiler [meme] + I have no clear reads on the third mafia member (and the small reads I can post on the people I have not mentioned are not worth posting). Good luck searching for him. If you think there is some sort of connection between myself and Dittert (aka been listening too much to Acrofales/yomi), get rid of that thought. My flip shows absolutely nothing about Dittert - I have no connection whatsoever to him. He is neither strongly town nor strongly mafia in my view. That being said, I have a slight town read on him. Ignore the first 2 days and evaluate him based on what you see in the coming day/night period. DO NOT LYNCH HIM TOMORROW IF FOR SOME REASON YOU THINK HE IS MAFIA (Lynch Xatalos, then Acrofales). DO NOT LYNCH FOR INFORMATION. Focus on what people say, how they say it, and go with your strongest mafia read. I agree we should definitely not lynch for information. I wish you had posted your unprocessed reads, rather than this will, but I just died in SS Mafia and know what it feels like to have not disseminated all the information you had and can understand you were strapped for time. I am sorry I found you scummy, but I still don't see much wrong with my reasoning (except for the factual errors that vK pointed out). | ||
Acrofales
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@Willz. I am still on the fence about you. You got active and posted your reads when you were under heavy pressure. Since then you have gone dormant again. Top 3 scum reads please. @KB. I looked over your other Newbie game and you seemed to be a bit more active in D2 there, engaging people in conversation all over the place and more of a leader than a follower, as opposed to this D2. I have gone into a what-if scenario where we have so far been completely wrong in our scumreads and your name pops up on my scumdar. I don't think there is any harm in continuing the analysis and scumhunting in the night this time, because mafia can kill whoever they like as long as they get to manipulate tomorrow's vote. So. Scum top 3 and why. @Xata. While my analysis indicates you're town, your posting has been completely hopeless. Your filter is unreadable and you put far too much stock in speculation about mafia motives. So on the one hand I think you're town, on the other you have some very scummy traits. I would really like a non-waffly post from you clearly stating who you think is scum, who you think is town and why. @funcnode. I liked your play at the end of D2, it was very sensible, but I still don't have a good idea of what you are. Please keep posting. @everybody else. Please be more active. Ask each other questions, post your reads. Don't let mafia hide in inactivity. | ||
Acrofales
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On April 17 2012 23:18 willz22912 wrote: If you're under the impression you will be shot, feel free to post this night. I completely agree and will be posting actively! However, the following players are under suspicion, myself, Xatalos, Yomi, Dittert. Any of these players being shot would not make sense in Mafia's line of thinking, we are too easy cases to push for a mis-lynch. Acro you better start posting your heart out if you think you're going to be killed off today, as I quote your lovely farewell post to Arctic: Now that town has successfully killed their own doctor (/facepalm) we can probably assume that Hiro probably medic'd Acro N1 because he had the most towncred among us. There are two explanations for Arctic being shot instead, Mafia assumed there was a medic and Acro would be on the most obvious target, so they switched to target #2 Arctic, or Acro is Mafia and they knew Arctic was either on the right track or the town with the most towncred. We can in no way shape or form assume Hiro did such a thing. However, scum fearing that a medic would protect me is a plausible reason not to shoot me. I agree that my goodbye post summarised Arctic's death quite succinctly. I cannot prove the second situation is not true unless I die, but the mere fact that situation is in your minds should've made Willz think before posting he posted the rest of his WIFOM. Also I find this defense by Xatalos of Acrofales troubling. Especially the DT talk, DT cannot be claimed at this point and proven, Mafia can easily counter-claim, all you're doing is making it easier for the Mafia to bluesnipe, very untownlike. Agreed about the DT bit. Why are you linking the DT bit to his defense of me, though? If Acro doesn't get shot tonight, there is no other explanation other than that he is Mafia, he has been too visible for a town to be left alive this long. If Acro gets shot tonight, then Xatalos is probably Mafia for trying to buddy/defend Acro so hard (I will add more on to this as night rolls over, have to head to class soon.) Hrmmm, how about this for a catch 22 scenario. However, this is particularly insidious wifom. It is wifom about stuff that hasn't even happened yet. You are planting the idea, so that if I am not shot, all you have to do is refer back here and say: see, he must be scum. I refuse to wifom your wifom, but suffice it to say this awarded you qutie a few points on my scumometer. Don't forget Acrofales and Xatalos were both scum in GoT Mafia (which they won) so they have good experience of what to do as Mafia. They also can play 100% completely opposite of what they did in GoT because of meta arguments. Bingo, another catch 22. If I (and Xata) were to have the same style as in GoT mafia, we would clearly be mafia: we have the same style. However, by changing our style we are ALSO clearly mafia, because we would totally have changed up our playstyle! The whole point why meta-arguments work is because it is VERY difficult to change your playstyle. In other words: confirmation bias much? They've both referenced what "Mafia should do" as part of their thinking, and then pointed out how they couldn't possibly be Mafia because they haven't done what "Mafia should do." This is flimsy reasoning, especially for a newbie game, people make mistakes and not optimal play, we've seen that numerous times in this game, trying to defend yourself by saying this is not what Mafia would do (what Xatalos has done) should not be a good defense. And another catch 22? If I act townie I am clearly scum, because I am NOT doing anything scummy! The whole point of this game is that mafia does not want to help scumhunt, wants to shit up the thread and wants to stay hidden. That case can be made against Xatalos, but I am finding it harder and harder to read him accurately. Suffice it to say, his playstyle is EXTREMELY different from GoT. He is also only displaying one of the many scum tells: he shits up the thread with useless wifom. Other than that he is (hyper)active and willing to commit to his cases (and makes them. I challenge you to find a single focused case by Xatalos in GoT mafia). Which reminds me, Willz, have you committed to anything yet, this game, except for your erroneous BroodKing case? Willz managed to drop off my scumometer in the whole D2 debacle, but this post just reminded me of why I fingered him as scum in the first place. Thanks! Also notice Xatalos trying to discredit HiroPro's last testament and will, even though he didn't manage to finish his thoughts in time, HiroPro was 100% town, and he may have been on to something. Remember what he said, ignore Xatalos and look at Acro's filter. HiroPro was town, not an oracle. If you and your scumbuddies really manage to convince the town to lynch me, you will see that a townie can still be completely and absolutely 100% wrong: I was on HiroPro and he is about me. | ||
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On April 18 2012 01:11 imallinson wrote: My proposal for the scum team: Scum #1: Xatalos I have been very suspicious of Xatalos since fairly on Day 2. He has managed to confuse everyone throughout the entire game by posting way too much. I was behind lynching him Day 2 but he and Acrofales convinced me (and a lot of other people) to switch to Hiro. I think I let Acrofales townness play too much of a role in my decisions. He is still looking like the scummiest person here and I propose we lynch him tomorrow. Scum #2: Acrofales Given that I have a strong feeling that Xatalos is scum, I start to wonder why Acrofales went after Hiro. Either he is town and honestly thought Hiro was scum or he is scum and stepped in to save Xatalos (an OMGUS by proxy almost). I will admit Acrofales looks the most town at the moment and seems like a very good town player who made a mistake. However it is possible he is also good scum who has managed to make himself look town and sway the vote to his liking (I realise this is WIFOM but it is relevant to my next point). So why would Acrofales go and lose some of his position? The only reason to do that would be to save a teammate. It's risky but getting the mislynch means they are very close to victory. Obviously this argument depends a lot on Xatalos being scum so I don't think Acrofales is someone good to lynch Day 3. If Xatalos does flip scum though he will be my #1 target the next day. Scum #3 Scum 3 I am a lot less sure of so I will go through all the possibilities. Dittert: This doesn't make much sense because Acrofales and Xatalos are pushing him to get vig shot tonight. I find this interesting in itself because if we do lynch scum tomorrow, having someone town get vig shot would be very beneficial for scum because it would still leave us having to get a correct lynch. yomi: This seems exceptionally unlikely at this point. There is no reason for scum to lynch on a fellow scum Day 1 when there are alternatives. vonKlaust: This probably makes the most sense to me. Apart from Xatalos making a bad case against him Day 1, which was never going anywhere, they have left vonKlaust alone, not implicating him in any way. I'm starting to find him very suspicious because he is flying well under everyone's radars. I'd say he is a good candidate for mafia #3 Funcmode: It's hard to get a read on you because you haven't posted a lot (I know some of this isn't your fault but you didn't post much after you joined either). However I don't see anything that makes you look particularly scummy at the moment. Willz: This doesn't make much sense because Acrofales was the person who started getting the vote going on Willz Kharad: I still think you are probably town (you have moved to my #1 town spot now) but I am much more wary of that now due to me being sure Acrofales was town. So my finished scum list, with shiny probabilities too (33% is a neutral read): #1: Xatalos (90%) #2: Acrofales (70% if Xatalos is scum) (33% if not) #3: vonKlaust (60% if #1 & #2 are scum) (40% otherwise) Okay, I like that you're posting If we forget about connections for a second, who would be your second-highest scum read. Because, apparently I am only scum if Xatalos flips red. If he flips green, then town is dead and I don't even get a chance. So, imagine Xatalos is green (despite thinking it's unlikely), who else might be scum at this point? At lylo we need to find 1 scum, not 3. That was one of the major things that I did wrong in thinking HiroPro was scum yesterday. My nightly reads will do the same: go back to basics and analyse players individually for scummy traits. No more connections, we worry about those AFTER we find the first scum. | ||
Acrofales
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On April 18 2012 02:28 yomi wrote: Here's one thing we know about the mafia: they are good so scenarios like xatalos going for this risky/aggressive playstyle with high volume posting is very possible as is acro trying to come out and be a town leader. that they are just lurking seems not so likely anymore. I believe we have been manipulated into the poor situation we find ourselves in. I agree that the mafia is good this game, but that is not a reason to give up. Yes, mafia could be hiding in the way you say. However, go over people's filters and look at who you REALLY think is mafia and post about that. This is a very noncommittal post. Lets look at how this plays out: Yomi is town: Acro gets lynched and flips town. Yomi loses Yomi is town: Acro gets lynched and flips scum. Yomi is forgotten because he never took a stance on the matter. If you think I'm scum, come out and say why. I admit that technically, I could be scum and hiding behind my "town leader" facade, however I am a townie who is really doing his best to help this town to victory. Yomi is scum: Acro gets lynched and flips town. Yomi's light suspicion flies under the radar. Yomi is scum: Acro gets lynched and flips scum. Yomi points to his light suspicion and says "see, I knew he could be flying under the radar". Same case can be made for your light suspicion on Xatalos. I currently don't have Yomi high on my scumdar, but winning is a group effort. I can't make all the reads by myself. I tried with HiroPro and was horribly wrong. | ||
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On April 18 2012 02:56 yomi wrote: Was hiropro not killed by mafia? No. He was killed by 7 people. However you play that, there's a town majority there. | ||
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On April 18 2012 02:23 imallinson wrote: Ignoring any connections. I'd say #2 is Dittert and #3 is Willz pretty much for the same reasons you are suspicious of them. Although this hits the same problem as the connection stuff. If my #1 scum read isn't scum it's not going to matter who I think is #2 because we would already have lost. No. This is not the same. This is your reads RIGHT NOW. You are suspicious of Xatalos, Dittert and Willz. That is good info to have. At the moment we have to lynch 1 scum. If we do that, THEN we can look at his connections. If we lynch Xatalos and he flips scum, then my defense of him was my second giant error of the game. But we make that connection when it happens. Keep an open mind for the moment and don't get stuck in what-if scenarios. Analyse the past, not the future. I am interested in knowing why you're suspicious of Dittert. I said I draw a blank on Dittert. I think it's quite probable that he's scum. He has not contributed anything to the town, except a stubborn insistence that Willz and Yomi are scum, without actually trying to convince town. I made a mistake reading Hiro's empty filter and strange hops of reasoning as a scum filter and refuse to make that same mistake: I am thus thoroughly confused by Dittert. My case for vig shooting him is far more pragmatic than that. Although, at the moment I am thinking Willz is scum again and would be happy to vote alongside "crazy ol' Dittert". So. Why the read as Dittert being scum? While I'm trying to coax people out of silence. Dittert, you updated your case on Willz at the start of D2 and I have not much to comment on that, but what do you think of Yomi now? Still scum? Or is someone else Willz' scumbuddy? | ||
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On April 18 2012 03:21 imallinson wrote: Because he doesn't contribute much besides his constant insistence that Willz is scum. He started of being really meek and unsure of his ideas then Night 1 starts berating everyone for being idiots and did the same Night 2. This reeks of trying to make yourself seems pro town because you never voted for the townie that got lynched. His posting doesn't make much sense to me if he is town. Did HiroPro's posting make sense as a townie? | ||
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On April 18 2012 03:34 imallinson wrote: No, but we can't just dismiss everyone's posting as "well they might just be playing town badly" or we get absolutely nowhere. Thank you. However, starting D3 with everybody voting Dittert, because he is a non-contributing lurker is going to kill discussion just as surely as it did on D2. I am completely in favour of Dittert getting shot, because he really isn't contributing and I realise that I was wrong yesterday in calling for the vig to hold his shot if he wasn't sure. Regardless of whether you're sure, discussing a Dittert lynch will kill discussion and we have no real clue whether we're right or wrong. The problem at lylo is that we NEED to lynch scum. All we know about Dittert is that he WILL behave erratically. I do NOT want to lynch erratic behaviour, I want to lynch scum. If we have a vig shot, Dittert needs to be killed. This will also give a crapton of info on Willz' alignment, who is currently skyrocketing my scumometer. I trust this town to continue without me, but it must NOT discuss a Dittert lynch, as it is pointless. So yeah: vig, if you exist, I urge you to shoot Dittert, regardless of alliance. If the vig is Dittert himself: shoot your strongest scumread (hint, Willz ) and CLAIM the shot! | ||
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KB: any take on HiroPro's will? And the night happenings? I have you as a town read, so stay active and fight the apathy! Think of Newbie VI: you started the game lynching two townies and fought back to victory! We can do this. | ||
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On April 18 2012 04:08 imallinson wrote: Yeah I'm all for not discussing a Dittert lynch, it won't get us anywhere just like Day 2. It's why I was talking about Xatalos. I'm wondering why you think Willz is the more likely than Xatalos to be scum. I'm worried I'm tunnelling on Xatalos and would like to look at alternatives. Okay, it was going to be part of my night deadline post, but I'm no longer very afraid of being shot. I am quite confident this town will manage to pull out a victory without me (a lot more so than during D2. My giant mistake has knocked my ego down a peg and I want to focus tonight on getting people posting and active). If mafia shoots me then my spurr on to be active and scumhunt is given extra importance. If mafia doesn't shoot me then I believe they will live to regret it. I believe I was on the right track on D1. However, his defense made a lot of sense at the time and he was an active poster. My getting drunk and going absent obviously didn't help and the short bit that I posted was true at the time: his defense made sense, his case against BroodKing didn't, but I didn't have the conviction I did when I posted the case. In the D2 events I sorta forgot about Willz. He lapsed into inactivity together with everybody else and as I said before: posts can be analysed, silence cannot. He did make + Show Spoiler [this] + On April 16 2012 23:37 willz22912 wrote: @ Dittert Hi again, guess you're not willing to let yourself die just yet after all? (What was the point of the martyrdom post then when we all suck according to you and feelings shouldn't be considered in this game?) Also helpful note, you never unvoted yourself after your martyrdom post so the bot that checks votes will still count it on yourself, so you better revote me and first do a ##Unvote:. Also considering I'm not one of the two likely lynches for this day, that vote sure will come in handy in a tiebreaker situation! Well, at least you're consistent I guess, which is something I can't say for Xatalos. However will you please answer one thing? If you like to point out lies so much, can you correct your statement here: So basically, you were wrong (we were all wrong) for doubting ArcticFox, since he's the only pro-town player that has flipped. Arctic had many reasons to be suspicious of you as well, but you're going to ignore that because part of his filter mentions myself and Yomi, and that's what you want to use in your case, ignoring the part that incriminates you. So you claim to be consistent in your tunneling of me, fine, I'm assuming you've read my filter so you've seen that I've been consistent in defending you because I think you're town and that town should always try and defend other town. I could be wrong because I don't know for sure, but all your actions can be explained to either being a newb town or a scummy Mafia. Secondly, your basis on your original and continuing suspicion on me is a lie, I have never pushed for your mis-lynch, and for you to claim otherwise would be to put words in my mouth. My vote on Xatalos is pretty much shooting in the dark for his motivations for pushing Yomi and switching to myself after Acro's case and then defending me. I just like Hiro's case against him and the spam he has done so far hasn't really helped much, I am also using the reasoning that Xatalos flipping would give us more information than Dittert flipping considering Xatalos has been much more spammy and all over the place. This is not good reasoning, but then again a lot of you voted Dittert for martyring himself and now that he's back, you're willing to change all the voting. I'll be in class for most of today, back at 6pm EST to see what's happened. + Show Spoiler [Once again, the vig shot] + It pains me to continue to call for a vig shot on Dittert, but flipping him now gives us information at no real risk (I am sorry to be harsh, but Dittert has contributed very little this game, even though his read on Willz could be spot on). A vig shooting Willz means that if I am wrong and Willz flips town, we have shot a potentially valuable asset. Given that reads are never 100%, I think shooting Dittert is currently the best option. He promised to be more active and assertive in D2. Instead we get this: + Show Spoiler [wishy washy] + On April 17 2012 07:07 willz22912 wrote: I just got back from class, took a read through the thread. I'm willing to change my vote off Xatalos, I never really had a good reason to lynch him today other than fishing for information from his flip. I've said before that I saw HiroPro as a little suspicious, he hasn't really contributed nearly as much as other people and seems to fly under the radar, the first time I took note of him was the case he posted against Xatalos D2 that got that bandwagon started. I'm willing to admit that my read of Dittert as newb town can really be called into question now and that I may have been blinded by my willingness to see what I wanted to see based on the actions so far. I can see the connection between HiroPro and Dittert, and I'm beginning to question how townie a person would be for consistently tunneling one person all game. However, since we can only lynch one person today, which is it going to be? Dittert or HiroPro seems to be the split. If Hiro flips red it gives a lot of weight to the assumptions that Dittert is red as well. I'm still hesitant to write off Dittert(I don't know, I've held onto this opinion all game of him being newbie town, I'd be really sad to be proven wrong) so I'd prefer to vote Hiro for now and let his flip decide what I think about Dittert. So accordingly: ##Unvote: Xatalos ##Vote: HiroPro Finally, the main thing I think we need is information to either ferret out remaining scum or help clear suspicious town, this was the main reason I voted Xatalos, I felt like his flip would at least give a lot more information than a Dittert one. However with Acrofales connection reasoning, it could be possible Hiro/Dittert are both scum, but we need to lynch one of them to confirm, and Hiro flipping scum would incriminate Dittert more so than the other way around imo. This looks like complete apathy to who is lynched, hidden under a thin veneer of "we get information". Granted, this is not much of a tell. The bandwagon on Hiro was starting to go and my case was apparently very convincing. This post has an acceptable townie explanation, so it is more a feeling: he does not seem interested in finding scum. He focuses on the "information" part. I was convinced Hiro was scum. The information comes automatically with lynching scum. Just look at it, we lynched Hiro, he was green (blue) and that gave us NO information. At the moment even funcnode flipping scum would give us something to work with, but almost nobody gives information when flipping green, unless they were HEAVILY accused at some point during the game (so people are rightfully suspicious of me and my push against Hiro). Now all of this would probably have slipped right by, if he had not gone out of the way to pre-wifom the night kill. That post is EXCEEDINGLY suspicious and I have made that case + Show Spoiler [here] + On April 18 2012 01:52 Acrofales wrote: Okay, I see I missed a post by Willz and it is an interesting one too. I am sorry, but this post reaks of wifom. I can smell this setup a mile away and I would like to show the entire town how it works. I completely agree and will be posting actively! We can in no way shape or form assume Hiro did such a thing. However, scum fearing that a medic would protect me is a plausible reason not to shoot me. I agree that my goodbye post summarised Arctic's death quite succinctly. I cannot prove the second situation is not true unless I die, but the mere fact that situation is in your minds should've made Willz think before posting he posted the rest of his WIFOM. Agreed about the DT bit. Why are you linking the DT bit to his defense of me, though? Hrmmm, how about this for a catch 22 scenario. However, this is particularly insidious wifom. It is wifom about stuff that hasn't even happened yet. You are planting the idea, so that if I am not shot, all you have to do is refer back here and say: see, he must be scum. I refuse to wifom your wifom, but suffice it to say this awarded you qutie a few points on my scumometer. Bingo, another catch 22. If I (and Xata) were to have the same style as in GoT mafia, we would clearly be mafia: we have the same style. However, by changing our style we are ALSO clearly mafia, because we would totally have changed up our playstyle! The whole point why meta-arguments work is because it is VERY difficult to change your playstyle. In other words: confirmation bias much? And another catch 22? If I act townie I am clearly scum, because I am NOT doing anything scummy! The whole point of this game is that mafia does not want to help scumhunt, wants to shit up the thread and wants to stay hidden. That case can be made against Xatalos, but I am finding it harder and harder to read him accurately. Suffice it to say, his playstyle is EXTREMELY different from GoT. He is also only displaying one of the many scum tells: he shits up the thread with useless wifom. Other than that he is (hyper)active and willing to commit to his cases (and makes them. I challenge you to find a single focused case by Xatalos in GoT mafia). Which reminds me, Willz, have you committed to anything yet, this game, except for your erroneous BroodKing case? Willz managed to drop off my scumometer in the whole D2 debacle, but this post just reminded me of why I fingered him as scum in the first place. Thanks! HiroPro was town, not an oracle. If you and your scumbuddies really manage to convince the town to lynch me, you will see that a townie can still be completely and absolutely 100% wrong: I was on HiroPro and he is about me. I can read nothing useful in this and can explain it in plenty of scummy ways. Building on my D1 case, this makes me very very very suspicious of Willz. To sum it up: 1. Imho, the most scummy post anybody has posted in this thread yet. 2. A lack of activity during D2, despite promising otherwise. 3. Possible apathy about the D2 vote. 4. A strange Willz/Dittert link. I would still like to go back and read Willz' other games (aperture and a noobie game, if I recall), and go over Dittert's case on Willz again, but I need to go and cook. Hopefully I have time before the nightpost. I don't think I'll have time to post a decent nightly reads, but for the possibility I get shot, you will at the very least get my unpolished notes and a brief summary of my top scum reads (which I am having trouble with at the moment. My top 1 is clear, my top 3 is tricky). | ||
Acrofales
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I don't think it will come as a surprise to anyone that my top 1 scum read is Willz. The reason can be found here. The wifom post is making me think I will be left to live. The opportunity to wifom why I was left alive is just too good and there are plenty of other town targets. Xata and I are surviving the night. KB or vonKlaust is dying. I will address funcnode's criticisms in a future post, I just want to point out that he may be forgiven for misinterpreting the "noob" statement. He missed this post before the game started when I was requesting to join, which is what I was referring to. Other than that I don't find emotional evaluation particularly useful unless it is in eliciting a response. I was F5ing around the time of the post and was dumbfounded for a couple of minutes. I assessed what this meant and realised that people would be very suspect of me. So I posted that. I don't post useless oneliners as town unless I'm trolling. Also, really? "For fucks sake" suggests genuine disappointment? Lol. It is meaningless. How the hell do you get any kind of sincere read out of a textual for fucks sake? You are soft-defending willz here. Why? The rest comes if I live through the night. Back to the nightly reads. Second on my scumlist is Yomi. I have nothing much solid on him at the moment, but some things jumped out at me as suspicious. Specifically, this post: On April 17 2012 06:49 yomi wrote: Looks like we aren't going through on dittert today. Sort of odd but ok. So I am weighing xat vs hiropro. Xat I still think really posts in a mafia way. I still sort of hate this cost/benefit analysis thing he does where he pleads to people's self-interest to vote a certain way. It is just reflective of a general viewpoint towards lynching that the point of it is to survive or to kill which I think is a bit different from how a townie views it. This is a very "emotional" sort of read so it may just be coming from my own admitted total bias against xat. Right when he starts to appeal to my interests to move towards hiro (aka saving him) I cringed and just wanted to vote him even harder. ON THE OTHER HAND!: Who are his teammates? Maybe I am just biased towards myself and egocentric etc whatever but I feel like the xat case originates from me. And was easy to shut down initially. I start going at the guy at a time when I myself don't have a lot of credit and most people are still reading xat as pretty town at this point. I think my arguments against him could have been shouted down pretty easily but they weren't. People kind of sat there on the sidelines and looked at it and let the discussion happen. I just think two mafia players could have shut me down right then and there and no one would be looking at xat today. Hiropro on the other hand has a very very obvious teammate. I went through his filter way back and show him again and again defending ditt. I don't have nearly the patience to substantiate this but my feeling is this is one of the most consistent alignments of any one player towards another so far in the game. I don't know how much dittert reciprocates back though. So I'm still on the fence here. Xat still seems mafia. However, this one time, his cost/benefit analysis of the lynches is I believe correct. There IS more upside to a hiro mafia flip as it gives us a go-ahead play on a lynch tomorrow or even a vigi shot tonight which would put us in a very strong winning position with all the time in the world to route out the remaining mafia player. If he flips town well he wasn't contributing too much anyway. Are we so far behind that we have to go for the double play or lose? 3-7 it is right now? That's not great, they only need one or at most two townies to come with them for a lynch on whomever they choose. Soooooo. Not sure. It could be nothing, but I get the feeling that he has completely forgotten his earlier suspicion of HiroPro here. That was not a bad case at all. In the intervening time HiroPro does nothing to defend himself against it and only says something about Xatalos' post and Arcticfox's suspicions. Why did Yomi drop the HiroPro case so completely in the meantime, as well as the HiroPro-Dittert connection, which HE was the first to put eyes on? Was this distancing himself from a mislynch? I'm not sure, but it is strange. It is currently the best I have to go on. For the third I was going to go with funcnode. This was before his last post. I don't like his last post much at all, but if I die, my green blood will make it all clear and otherwise I will respond tomorrow. Town: Xatalos, KB, vonKlaust and probably imallison. No clue on Dittert. + Show Spoiler [Hopefully not-too-illegible notes] + BroodKingEXE: proposes two policy lynch things for discussion. Being dumb about KharadBanar's pressure vote. Shores up his early game discussion and tries to move it forward. Still nothing, though. DEAD: flipped town KharadBanar: very active at the start, but very careful about wording his opinions. Wants to know about an "opening strategy". KharadBanar shoots down Dittert's proposal. Hard to get a read on. He's active, but not doing anything useful. Points out problems with RNG, but not the main problem, which is THAT IT'S STUPID. Pulls off pressure vote immediately Makes a good defense against my accusations and explains the Hiro "pressure" and voices suspicions of Xatalos. Much better pressure vote on Yomi. Voices his small suspicions rationally. Is easily convinced by my case. Shits on willz's case for good reasons = null tells. Reasonable towards willz. Is convinced by willz's defense and votes hiropro (who he has no real case against, but is second in his scumometer). Is also easily convinced by Xatalos' case against yomi. Looking for consensus surrounding Broodking. Sheeping Dittert vote. Makes a list post. No longer thinks HiroPro is suspicious. Uses a bit of wifom, but his filter analysis is good (and he put a LOT of work into it, more than scum usually does). Uncalled for lists are not normal from scum: there was no pressure on him to make it at all. Decent connection-based analysis, but high wifom. Does not take votes into account in a strong way. Jumps on Xatalos misinterpreting Yomi's post... could be a townie after scum, or a scum driving home the nails in the coffin. Agrees with my analysis post. Uses it to draw a connection to Xatalos. Townometer: iiiii Scumomenter: iii LAST UPDATE: April 18 @ 03:42 vonKlaust: agrees on lurker lynch, but is not sure about liars. Pulls noobie card for "no reads" and seems very sincere about it. Thinks Dittert is a nervous noobie. Affirms that he has no reads yet, but in a townie manner. Seems to be the local bullshit detector.. Is very honest about his reads and his mistakes. Has willz as top town. Top scum is "harder": weak suspicion of HiroPro and Xatalos. Comes under fire from Xatalos (and HiroPro. Possible connection there?), but I like his defense. Bit of an OMGUS on HiroPro, but still uses logic. Adds his reasoning to my case on willz. Long back and forth with Xatalos over nothing. No real read. Looks into other people. Posts his findings. Seems very townie in his quandary over willz vs. yomi. First to respond in surprise over brood's flip. I don't like that he just jumped on it without thinking it through. Votes without ever really saying why "what what what WHAT?" is the closest he gets. Is very suspicious of willz during the night. Has a really good point about yomi lurking until under pressure. Makes a list post: rehashes some points already made. Good reads, though. I like what he says on KB. Likes a DITTERT-XATA scumteam. This is interesting, because the dittert/xata bandwagons are already under way. Has a strong scumread on Dittert. Uses my analysis to draw his own conclusions. Townie attitude in trying to figure shit out. Is correctly suspicious of my factual blunder on the Hiro case. Keeps his vote on his strongest scum read, Dittert. Scumometer: ii Townometer: vii LAST UPDATE: April 18 @ 03:42 ArcticFox: likes LaL policy. Thinks there won't be lurkers. Explains support for LaL in a good way. Excellent response to Xatalos' post. Suspects vonKlaust for his wishy washy non-play. Townometer: i DEAD. Was town. Posted the usual suspects. Mostly Yomi and willz. Says "Why not go after imallinson as well? Imallinson's filter reads SO scummy right now, it practically drips red." Calls Xatalos out in the night. Suspects Dittert during the night (because of his post). Shot by mafia, so maybe look into Yomi, Willz, imallison, Xatalos. Slight suspicion of HiroPro as a lurker. Dittert: proposes nonsense. Pulling newbie card. Response to light pressure is to OMGUS Willz. He also claims yomi lied, which is dumb. He might just be another Risen, but it's too hard to distinguish shitty town from mafia. Try to keep an open mind when reading him. Posting very deluded, makes some interesting points about Willz, but apologizes immediately for being a noob. Seems very convinced in the triad of willz, yomi, arcticfox and is reaching to make it stick. Town reads are really strange. KB makes some sense, but why Brood and imallison? Extends his case on willz. Makes a really really angry post about the brood lynch. Nothing constructive and shitting on town. Gets everybody's backs up. Next up, he martyrs himself. Gives a plausible explanation for his anger when coming to his senses. He still thinks willz is scum and builds slowly on his case. WIFOMing willz' reason for defending him is a bit strange, but it's making more sense than he has so far in the thread. Picks up on an interesting thing Xata said. Later is convinced Xata is scum. Makes another non-contribution calling everybody stupid. His lack of conviction is worth shooting. Townometer: iii Scumometer: iii LAST UPDATE April 18 @ 05:09 Willz: shooting down bad proposals and pricking through bullshit by KharadBanar, including his "pressure" vote. Shoots Xatalos' case to smithereens with good reasoning. Is extremely aggressive in his reads. He is either town, or playing mafia like I do. Very suspicious of imallison. Thinks Xatalos is town. Calls out lurkers. Says he's patient to allow noobs to get used to the game. Takes it upon himself to police the thread. Says he's "defending" Dittert, but is actually smothering him. Seems a bit panicked in his response to a complete noob accusing him, especially given how bad the accusation was. Maybe this accusation is unfair. He does address Dittert's points, but in a very sarcastic and derisive manner. His post @BroodKing is ultra-defensive. Is very honest in his reply to the case I made against him. However, his case against broodking is weak. Defense against dittert: appeal to authority. However, the rest is solid. Explains his playstyle and it is very different to mine. Town defending town seems weird. Bad, vague case against KB. Voices suspicions of HiroPro and imallison. Rolls with the punches, seems willing to learn, assuming he's town. In general, I like his defense before he goes all emo. Even with the emo shit, he stays fairly calm. He overemphasises how he's dead. I think scum might be more aggressive in this situation, but wifom here. Disagrees strongly with yomi and needs heavy convincing to vote for him. Seems good at describing the game, but is passive in hunting scum. Finally suspects someone again: HiroPro. Thinks the case by HiroPro on Xata is "fine". Lots of wifom. Brings up yomi "knowing" willz is town. Makes an interesting post about how he is STILL convinced that Dittert is newbie town. How the heck does he know this? Wishy washy on the Hiro/Xatalos/Dittert situation. Votes HiroPro for information Couple of nothing posts. Voices possible suspicion of me, because of the failed HiroPro case. Right thing to do. Not much of a tell: mafia would also love to pile suspicion on me. Holy batcrap. Giant pre-nightkill wifom. Cannot think of a town reason to post this. It is bad analysis at a bad time. Townomometer: iiii Scumometer: viii LAST UPDATE: April 18 @ 05:09 HiroPro: Responded to pressure vote in a lacadaisical manner (as expected). Pointed out problem with LaL. Made a good, brief post about Xatalos' useless case against ArcticFox. Also points out inconsistent behaviour. Pointed out yomi's OMGUS dodge of the question. However, his filter is pretty much void of any actual opinions. Votes all over the place and a flimsy case on Xatalos. Soft defends trumpetarm: possible connection? Starts to get into the spirit of the game around April 13 07:11. Is convinced that Xatalos is town and his case against vonKlaust is good. Maybe too easy, maybe not. Holy hypocrit. vonKlaust correctly points out the hipocrisy in his argument. Throwing blame around and hoping it sticks? Soft defense of Dittert? Scrambles to cover his tracks on the hipocrisy argument. Scum read on broodking... in a post comparing the three. The bandwagon was already gone by this point. CLASSIC mafia ploy. Makes a decent case on xatalos and votes. Maybe trying to sort out dittert's mess. Does not make much sense if dittert is town. Could still be very noob town. DEAD town. Townometer: i Scumometer: iiii yomi: Points out how bad the discussion is. Fat load of nothing. Lurking? Dropped in 8 minutes after Xata called him out. Suspicious of Xata and Brood for vague reasons. Wow, made a fubar post @April 13 2012 01:12. Thinks accusing people in every post is townie behaviour. Seems a bit panicked. Also, defense of Dittert by ArcticFox? More like an OMGUS to dodge the question. Lashing out like a madman... BroodKing is suspicious of his top 3 list where he doesn't follow the ranking. I disagree with that read, he's just listing 3 mafia members. Happen to be the most suspected player and two lurkers (arcticfox, hiropro, dittert). Easy picks. Throws some suspicion at HiroPro. Gets into an OMGUS with Dittert. Dittert and Yomi both scum seems increasingly unlikely. Yomi buddies willz. Willz looking townie at this point, so who knows. Something weird with yomi defending his defense of willz. Not a tell, just weird. Soft accusation of Dittert. Later turns into a hard accusation. Is less willing than willz to just roll over and die. Lies about being the first to suspect Brood. His post is a throwaway that could have meant anything. Seems increasingly unlikely that Yomi is on the scumteam with Dittert or HiroPro. Is reluctant to say Xata is mafia. Goes back and forth poking holes in Xatalos' logic. Not much use either way. I think Xata catches too much flak for misunderstanding Yomi. It is really easy to misunderstand. Who drives this point home? Finally. Yomi makes a post suspecting HiroPro and Dittert (been harping on them all game). His post makes some sense. I would not expect a connection case like this from a mafia member, it's too risky. Claims activity, but does nothing. Makes a value-based judgment call between Xatalos and Dittert. No scumhunting, just utility. Alarmbell? When going back to my case, seems to have completely forgotten his earlier suspicion of HiroPro. Not sure what to make of this. Hmmm... while suspicion of HiroPro is justified, possibly suspicious that he made the case. Specifically his later lack of commitment to it? Investigate further. Thinks Xata is scum. Pointless speculation about mafia influencing the lynch. Townometer: ii Scumometer: iii Xatalos: Posts a trumped up case on ArcticFox. Null read so far: I understand where he's coming from, but I disagree with his reasoning. Throws suspicion on imallison for similar trumped up reasons. Xatalos posts too much fluff. Calls out lurkers. Is very active and seems to want to move discussion forward. Holy crackerjack his response to me is bad. Blending in much? Reads on Xatalos all over the map. Gone through his filter. Getting an overall townie vibe if I consider his posts in isolation. Wordy, overeager, but townie. Filter is gigantically long. Lot of back and forth with Yomi. Null read. Too much wifom. Posts everything that comes to his mind. This seems like a townie thing to do, but is really clogging up the thread. Playstyle completely different from Got mafia. Not a big fan of meta-arguments, but only thing I have on Xatalos so far is that he is wildly different from Xata. Posts why he's town. Shouldn't be necessary, but he makes a decent amount of sense. Case on willz is so/so. At least cases are improving. Activity is also improving. Tries to engage in discussion without waffling too much at the end of N2. Townometer: iii Scumometer: ii LAST UPDATE: April 16 @ 22:50 imallison: fat load of nothing posts. Seems pretty clueless. Buddying people, mainly Xatalos. Posts a case on Trumpetarn which is not bad, but picking on an inactive noobie is pretty easy. Still buddying Xatalos. Many more nothing posts. Makes a case against Trumpetarn for nothing. Same as Hiro... makes a baddish case against Brood. Either because he's town and believes it, or because he's scum and wants to seal the deal. Makes a good list during the night. Note the town read on Arctic tho. Soft defense on HiroPro? Is very scared of a vig shot... Posts a lot more sheeping. Definitely soft defending HiroPro. Also soft defending Yomi. Good case against Xatalos, who is currently the prime for lynching. No read there. Points out an error in my thinking. Seems townie to be thinking along <--- especially given that Hiro flipped town: bandwagoning would've been easier as scum. Makes a long case comparing HiroPro and Xata. It makes sense. Votes Hiro in the end. Calls for a case from funcnode: suspicion without reasons is bad! An answer to my question relies on wifom. Later responds briefly with his current reads. I didn't call him out, so volunteered the info. Improving posting style since start of game. Scumometer: ii Townometer: iii LAST UPDATE: April 18 @ 05:50 trumpetarn/funcnode: excellent response to my light prodding. Like his explanation of the Xatalos suspicion. Clueless townie? Read his filter in isolation. Pretty damned useless. Funcnode's list is a sheep. Null read. Placing final nail in Xatalos's coffin? Identifies the negative aspects of Xatalos' posting. Post is valid. Defends his list as a non-sheep list. Makes some valid points. The list had minor novelty Seems to like the HiroPro-Dittert---IMALLISON connection that Xatalos invented (don't understand it). I like the "I need convincing"-stance from a playstyle point of view. Not sure if this is townie or not, though. Suspects imallison. Look into this more? Would like to hear a longer case than the list-post summary. Analysing emotions. "for fucks sake" seems genuine? I am not sure I like this post, but it's definitely a novel and interesting way of looking at things. The rest of the post is a long list of happenings from funcnode's perspective. I am not sure what to think of it right now: it definitely gives more to read, so that's good. Hrmmm, I don't understand the defense of Willz post. Regardless of alignment this was a bad post. Is happy on the willz defense, so if willz is scum, is a good option for scumbuddy. Null read in general, but liking wifom is very strange. Townometer: i Scumometer: i LAST UPDATE April 18 @ 06:25 | ||
Acrofales
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I have faith that this town will avenge me! | ||
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However, the happenings after the DT claim are really mindboggling. Sure, there are all kinds of accusations flying around, but you have a DT claim. The logic here is really clear: at this point in the game, the only people claiming DT would be, either the DT, or mafia. You decide which and lynch either his redchecked target, or him, himself. The next important thing that happens is this post by KB, in which his entire defense is an admission of guilt: He LITERALLY says that Dittert's roleclaim makes no sense as a fake claim. If it is not a fakeclaim, it is a real claim and Dittert redchecked KB. At that point you can rightfully question why the hell he would check KB, but it doesn't really matter why: he did and got a red check. A framer on KB was extremely unlikely... and looking over his filter you can see some of the scumtraits: he really did spend the entire game flying under the radar. His lists made sense, but they just sheeped town consensus. @Dittert: appearing untownie is all very well for avoiding a nightkill, but you really want to appear townie, so people believe your DT claim too. I liked the breadcrumb (and no, I didn't pick up on it, because it's really not doable to analyse everybody's posts in all the possible ways of breadcrumbing... additionally as town that is not what you should focus on ). What shat up the thread were your rants gainst town at night. Don't do that. Not as town, nor as scum. It's just a really bad thing to do. What you want to do is win the game, not call your teammates idiots. Especially after you were afk yourself for the entire ordeal. @Willz: unfortunately you really were the fourth scum Your utter lack of suspicion of KB buddying you hard was what convinced me you were scum, even though quite a lot of the observerQT thought you were town. If KB had gotten lynched, you would've looked really bad. You were in a unique position to figure this out. You knew you were town and that one of KB and Dittert was scum. You push for a Xatalos lynch (why is still beyond me) and KB is INSTANTLY buddying you hard. This was super suspicious behaviour and should really have sent you into an alarm state: if KB was really town, then he should be pushing HARD on a Dittert lynch, but instead he wants to buddy you and lynch Xatalos. Why? Especially since before the DT claim, he had been leaning more towards lynching you (in a stand-offish manner), and nothing in the outfall of the DT claim had made Xata or you more suspect than you already were (you both, unfortunately, used similarly bad logic). @scum: yeah, my D2 analysis was actually not nearly as bad as I thought after the complete mislynch on Hiro. I just latched onto the wrong person. I later thought my analysis on voteswitching between two townies was probably a false assumption, but never got to correct my analysis for it (would've put KB back on the radar). You made a good call killing me, I am quite confident I would've logicked my way into a KB vote. But who knows what kind of pressure I would've been under if I hadn't gotten killed. @Xata: you played GoT mafia with me. You went through Risen's DT claim with me. You should really have remembered how DT claims work. Also: you post too much. ArcticFox put it best here, and hilarious as it was with KB being scum and all, he actually tried to help you with this. @vonKlaust: such a shame. You were SOOOO close to figuring out why Dittert's DT claim had to be real, yet you got distracted by all the waffling If only someone had had more faith in "crazy ole dittert". For cop and counter-cop claims, take a look at the logic in the "I'm a cop, you idiot" game! The game was a good learning experience. Town is super-much-harder to play than mafia. Reading people is really hard (and you don't have to worry about that as mafia ). Also, I have now gotten shot in N1 and N2 in the two games I've played as town... and apparently the only reason I didn't get shot in N1 here is because of fear of a medic. Not sure that's a good or a bad thing. | ||
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I understood not wanting to vote for KB yet and giving yourself time to make a proper case, but you could have tried asking for people's opinions on KB. Saying you are starting to have some doubts about his townieness, because he seemed to just sheep people's opinions. Steer the discussion towards him, rather than Xatalos/Willz. | ||
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