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On February 19 2012 10:46 zelblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:43 gumshoe wrote:On February 19 2012 10:24 zelblade wrote:On February 19 2012 10:14 gumshoe wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 zelblade wrote:On February 19 2012 09:38 gumshoe wrote:On February 19 2012 09:27 EchelonTee wrote:On February 19 2012 08:19 gumshoe wrote: I have an aching feeling that Ech will flip green if we kill him ) : that opening move of his was almost as bad as mine and hes supposed to be good, I cant imagine him being coached by other mafia through all this. I hate it but its gonna have to be a no lynch unless gladeus says he eats babies or something. Maybe we can vote for one of the lurkers? Manner/michael? Zell?
1. i'm not good. why suggest this so openly. this is my 4th game playing. 2. as mattchew said, this could be a scumslip; he knows I would flip green and is planting this. After my aggressive opening towards gumshoe I dont know why he would support me as such. Thoughts? It was between you and gladeus, and I wanted to vote for gladeus as I suspected him from earlier, also in case you didint notice everyone attacked me at the start in some way, In fact I'm more suspicious of the people of the people who supported me but more on that later. Oh by the way thanks for this "i'm not good" I remember someone said they expected more out of you or something... As if they were making you out to be a better player than you were, it worked cause come lynch time I got the sense that you were a bit more of an experienced player, that person I recall reprimanded you and praised you at the same time. Still trying to figure out why. Why are you suspisious of people who supported you? Why were you not around during the final minutes leading up to the lynch. jaj's reasoning that you might have woke up, voted, than gone back to sleep is obviously not what happened as you are here now. Give me a good reason for your disappearance. Your vote was important and we narrowly got a no-lynch. Why suddenly disappear after being so active in the thread? just an update, Ive been pretty inactive because I realized the only thing ive proven through my posts is that I'm inept, I haven't built a strong case on anyone, so I let other people talk while I researched, now I almost have two cases, in about 30 minutes I'm gonna present my findings. Moving onto the vote,I voted for gladeus because I felt he was mafia, I changed my stance on dim a while ago when I got the sense that he was just bandwagoning me , he didn't post any reasons just said I was suspicious , he seemed kinda out of synch with everything and didn't really get a chance to have a back and forth with his accusers, I saw no reason to vote for him when i felt gladeus was the better pick, I stuck with who I suspected. As to why I'm more suspicious of people who support me? I cant say yet, itll just sound like wifom without a case, I need you all to be a bit patient on that front. like I said thirty minutes. You are missing the point here. My point here is that in the last 20 minutes or so before the lynch, it was clear that MG wasnt going to be lynched. We needed your vote on Dimmu, and we narrowly missed a no-lynch. Why werent you around the last few minutes before the deadline, when you were clearly online? I'll be looking forward to your case. Theres an hour in between my posts, it was 8ish when I rushed my vote, I didn't vote to establish a majority I voted for the person I found suspicious, I left to go eat. Also I've been awake all day pretty much, I just haven't posted. I voted at 8ish left to go eat dinner with my family, came back and read the results. Also are you actually mad at me for not voting for a townie? Or do you think I wanted to look as if I was right about not voting for the townie ? Simply wanted to clarify for why you were missing during the lynch. I dont think that you wanted to look as if you were right about not voting a townie, but am simply curious as to why you were gone and just wanted to pressure you to see your reaction.
you have it, any other questions?
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As I said i'll take a bit of time, so ask me a few specific reads if your impatient. I'll answer as effectively as I can.
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On February 19 2012 11:25 Alderan wrote: Damn. I stand by my play though, I think the reads were pretty clearly scum.
Reminder: When you are being accused, STAY ACTIVE, the more you give us the more we can find out about you. If you are town and you stay active generally this will be identified.
I think everyone needs to focus on the hour running up to the vote. There was a lot of action and activity that probably didn't get %100 attention. I'm to check out the voting records, specifically the correlation between who came off of MG and ET and on what basis.
Alderaan while your here what do you think of ASK?
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On February 19 2012 12:29 EchelonTee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:07 MidnightGladius wrote:You're missing the point again. That argument (should've pushed harder if truly convicted) is weak coming from either of us, as neither of us actually did it. It's the pot calling the kettle black I know, that's why I said it was weird. Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:13 MidnightGladius wrote: EchelonTee:
1. My first post in NMM3 responded to other posts because other people had posted. In this game, I was the second poster, concurrent with DYH. Your allegation is baseless.
2. Our posting styles are different. You dislike mine, and I dislike yours. Fine. What specifically have I not contributed to? What topics have I failed to address? What questions have I failed to answer?
3. I was referring to FP's terrible use of statistics (saying that 30% chance on a random lynch was good), not the fact that he was green. Anyone trying to use bad reasoning is anti-town in my eyes.
4. jaj22 has no valid case on me. If he did, he would be presenting one. I don't see it. Do you? Don't push him into taking shots at me that he clearly isn't willing to take.
5. gumshoe and I had been the only ones going back and forth for quite some time. He asked me some questions, I answered them, and suggested that we both back off for a bit to cool down and sleep on our thoughts. I happen to think that my reasoning is good, and you still haven't convinced me otherwise. If you think that I'm completely and utterly scummy, then you really need to take a step back and fully re-evaluate the claims that you're making and the evidence from which you're making them. 1. You could have said more, still. Perhaps you hadn't seen DYH's post yet, but still, considering how meaty your post was the other game, this one looks strange in comparison. In your previous game, there were only really 2-3 substantive posts to yours, so the difference is not solely because of that. 2. I don't dislike your play; I respect your play tbh. I just think you're being scummy this game. Our posting styles are not substantially different. We post fairly long at times, shorter when having direct conversation. What I don't like is that you are honing in on people that I, and others, have noted to be noobier players who are not inherently scummy. There have been a lot of other people posting in the thread that you could easily be suspicious of, but you pick the reads that take the least work. You haven't generated NEW content, which is why I say you are not contributing. I really don't like that you're trying to define this as myself simply disliking your posting style. You're avoiding the fact that you haven't really been contributing. 3. People trying to use bad reasoning is anti town, yes. However, you used this as justification to vote gumshoe. The fact that FakePromise was green is damning for you; I know that you didn't use the fact that FP was green, I am the one who is using that. If you know that nooby and anti-town=/=scum, you shouldn't have voted gumshoe. I don't see how you can deny this. The facts are laid out. This is not at all a loose point, as you claim my case is. 4. If jaj does not want to pursue you then w.e. His original case, I liked. 5. your back and forth only lasted for about 1-2 pages, 2-3 posts each. You really didn't go on and on about it that much, and haven't presented much reasoning other than "acting obviously anti-town". This is a newbie game, you realize. I don't expect all townies to be pro-town. Can other people look at my #2 and #3 and honestly say that my case is baseless?@gumshoe, I'd advise you slow down your posting and try to be more coherent; activity is good, but you're starting to fill up the thread unnecessarily with a LOT of randomness. Analytical posts by other people have been buried. Just post when you've consolidated your thoughts.
kk
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One of my biggest concerns going into the vote was that it felt like the majority of us were set on the players who had made common individual mistakes. It feels like were not really entertaining the notion that the mafia might actually be playing well because were so set on the idea that they are obvius and awful.
Here were our four biggest suspects.
Me: Do I even have to say anything? even I had a hard time going through all my posts when i went back and read the whole thread.
Ech: for being excessively hostile at the start and not contributing much.
Midnight: for posting generic opinions on me and manner and generally not contributing until put on the defence about not contributing, and then basically repeats exactly what he said about me and manner and accuses the people who accused him. Also suggested that me and ech are both mafia which seems kinda ludicrous.
DimmuKlok: Posting suggestions that are sorta silly and then retracting them, lurking for a while, accusing easy choices. Turned out to be just a townie.
If any of these players were or are mafia, I'm inclined to believe that the mafia is really really shitty.
just look at these guys, they have absolutely nothing to do with one another, they attack each other or don't say anything about one another, there are no similarities between them, one is aggressive one is chaotic one is a lurker and one is too by the books. They have only vaguely similar enemies and few common agendas.
I think we should be looking for the similar objectives between players as opposed to the suspicious individual activity.
Because whats the first thing you'd expect out of a good mafia? Organization! Of which these suspects have almost none whatsoever, which leads me to believe that at best only one of the three remaining suspects from yesterday is mafia and it may not even be any of us
We haven't been looking for organization because the good players who are capable of it, the ones who have played before, don't seem very suspicious at first glance , heres a list of players who have been giving off an air of experience and have been at least seemingly helpful.
Do You Has
Sloosh
Janaan
Jaj
alderan
trapdoor
All Their posts seem pretty tight, if somewhat scarce at times.
Theres a chance(I wont say a good one because I got fried for that last time) that one of these intelligent players is mafia
in which case I think trying to find individual flaws in all their posts wont turn up much right now because their a bit more experienced than the average bear. You can yell at HAS for his play as much as you want, but hes is active and he proposed a no lynch(or a sloosh lynch) on the turn we lynched a townie. That looks bad on us, not him.
That said if Do You is a townie I feel like hes just going on his gut right now in accusing sloosh, he should definitely expect sloosh to have a good defence just like he did last time, considering sloosh has proven himself competent and its too early in the game too have a big case against anyone of the grander players, that is if you approach them individually.
If we want to gain any more information on players we think are scum but cant really prove we need to search for alliances and common agendas
We need to try and see what goals groups of 2 to 3 players have been trying to accomplish.
Here are my cases for active organization, there are two, the first one is founded on my bias against Midnight and steveling, the second is founded on my fear of the nightmare scenario for town.
First :The notion that even if I flip green town still somehow benefits: This case implicates Midnight, Steveling and to a lesser degree sloosh.
This is a very bold claim, I'm far more worried about the people who feel that even if I am town I should be lynched anyways then I am worried about the people who just claim I am mafia(like Blae who is totally justified in suspecting me). Because the later opinion wants to kill scum while the former wants to kill a player regardless of their alignment. This opinion is beyond reckless in a 15 player game with four mafia where the mafia gain a clear advantage if a townie is lynched(as one has been). It just seems like a bad move , unless you are mafia and you know that you have every right to accuse me of being scum and you also want to convince the town that the amount of chaos I've brought to the thread is more of a threat to them than you and your piers (the people who want to shoot them) are
The first person to openly convey this perspective albeit lightly and constructively was Sloosh
+ Show Spoiler +Gumshoe I am seriously considering lynching you due to your anti-town play. You are cluttering the thread despite numerous requests to stop. Your posts are still without content. Saying that we have a higher probability to hit mafia since there are 4 opposed to 3 is irrelevant and unhelpful in finding the mafia.
If you keep it up I will push for your lynch, because your play right now is detrimental to town.
I actually don't read much out of this, at the time I was arguing about the odds of a lurker being mafia which really isn’t that helpful. I think Sloosh means what he means here, that I should stop cluttering the thread, this quote alone means nothing.. (Note though that shortly after sloosh made the implication that I was harmful to the town regardless of wether I was green or red Midnight attacks me)
The next person isn't nearly as taciturn about the decision to lynch a harmful townie, Heres what steveling had to say at the end of his long vanilla accusation of me bieng mafia.
+ Show Spoiler +Your play is scum 100% gomshoe. You post in quantity but not in quality. You lie. You so admit it yourself. You make obvious WIFOM play.
In fact your play is so weird that even in the off chance that you are a dazed towny it's still better to kill you off now.
In that last part steve is making an entirely different case, not that I'm mafia, but that my death can only benefit the town. He makes this clear later on before he logs off
+ Show Spoiler +place my vote on gumshoe. The reasoning for this is in my case against him. tldr:I wanna kill him cause of his scummy play. Regardless of his allingment his play is ultra scummy, that's anti town.
He again hinges on his argument for me being mafia, but makes sure to note that I should die either way. right now in the game were down a town and if I'm lynched and I come up as town that is a horrible blow regardless of what he thinks of my play, I know that for a fact, someone please argue for the sake of two mislynches please. If you convict me, convict me of being mafia, not a general threat to the town.
Also this notion that its ok too lynch a townie is kinda funny coming from the guy who claimed to be the sheth of mini mafia.
remember this? + Show Spoiler +So, my view on the whole thing is that we should push for a no lynch day 1.
weird wasn't it, his excuses later on for it? + Show Spoiler +With our current cases, I just thought that we were gonna lose a towny .
huh, pretty humane thing coming out of someone who proposed a few hours later that a bad townie is 100 percent worth lynching.
Meanwhile I was fighting with midnight and midnight said the following
+ Show Spoiler +Mislynching gives away so much information in terms of voting patterns and people's posting behavior, for and against. Mafia night kills only generate WIFOM, and there's not much more to be said about that.
Again another argument in favour of mislynching thats being given at a similar time as Steveling's argument.
After that Steveling backed up Midnight's opinion, he backed up the guy who shared the same agenda with him(lynch gum) and shared the same phillosiphy with him (a bad townie is worth lynching) steveling even reached out to defend midnight! The guy who was fighting his battle with him.
The behaviour between these two seems of a very similar vein despite the fact that Steveling has only addressed Midnight once in the whole game and to back up his similar opinion.
Heres one last thing that bugged me about Steveling, he said this
spoiler]With each post you make, I'm getting more and more confident about killing you, lol.[/spoiler]
doesn't he mean lynch me, or vote for me? How can you alone kill me? He didnt say "makes me wanna vote or convince everyone else to vote for you" you said kill me.
The only people who kill in this game are mafia and vigilantes. Steve if your a vig why would you risk yourself by using that phrasing?
If it was just a slip it was a careless one and it doesn't help my opinion of you.
So thats the first set of correlation's I wanted to talk about and it was very easy to talk about because I don't like Gladeus( how he backed off of me to vote for Ech when people started to pressure him didn't at all help my opinion of him) and I'm not a fan of Steveling, this next part though is not gonna be to easy to suggest.
Because this is my nightmare scenario, I think until we lynch a mafia we need to actively consider the worst case scenario ,the possibility that the mafia has the mental upper hand, that they are intelligent and have come up with plans to adapt if a teammate catches fire. My next set of accusations will begin shortly and just to clarify they dont have anything to do with my accusations against steve and midnight.
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We've been focusing too much on whose accusing who and not enough on whose helping each other out.
Just look how much these players have been supporting each other.
Jannan said
+ Show Spoiler +One player that concerns me right now is MannerKiss. First he gets called out to provide some decent content by DoYouHas, then he posts a single sentence acknowledging DoYouHas's post, but doesn't post any content. I'm getting slightly scummy vibes from his play right now. It's worth looking into as we go forward.
In this post Janaan heavily suspects mannerkiss and in doing so he suggests that Has is trustworthy and was right to pressure manner.
more from Jannan
+ Show Spoiler +DoYouHas: Pretty strong towny feel to me. He's been willing to call people out and promoting real discussion from the town. Sloosh: Still on the neutral side, BUT probably leaning toward the town side of things. Since defending himself from Echelon, he's been trying to clear the thread of fluffy responses, to allow for real discussion, which is also what he did in NMM3. Alderan: Feeling a bit towny to me. He was the first to provide a full-on case against someone, which is usually a pro-town action.
So we see Janaan once again supported Do, his reasons seem valid but almost eager, as if hes searching for nice things to say about HAS.
also Jaanan's post on alderaan is kinda funny, he speaks from experience saying that good townies post cases but...
+ Show Spoiler +This is my first game of forum mafia, I've played very casual in-person games, though most of those have little to no actual scum-hunting and just fairly random fingerpointing, so I'd barely count that as real experience
where did you learn this exactly? Isn't this suggestion pretty wifom to begin with?
Heres some more compliments for Do out of trap door.
+ Show Spoiler +DoyouHas seems to be pointing the town to the right direction: taking the confidence to be the first to post (BUT last newbie mafia the first poster turned to be scum, with the difference that it was just fluff), gathering information and making his stand clear to everyone. Seems very pro town from me, the same way he did it in NMM3.
Heres some more
+ Show Spoiler +DoYouHas Very active, pointing good posts and having a very good analysis in his posts. A very good town read from him.
Trak door also says this about alderan.
+ Show Spoiler +He looks very town for me at least. You made your stand clear from the start and you are pressuring Dimmu. Looks very neat so far.
and this about Jannan + Show Spoiler +Janaan Hard to read. He has good intentions and makes good points, but I still i want to hear more from him. Looking forward to his posts.
Jannan has reinforced do and alderan. Trak has reinforced do and Alderaan and says Janaan has good points.
Do compliments none of them openley as of yet but as we see up ahead...
+ Show Spoiler +Here is my thinking on gumshoe so far. I think he is a townie.
gumshoe has done a number of things that are not helping the town. The have been pointed out quite a few times so I won't go into depth about them now. Things like derailing, cluttering, unclear-ness, lying, a few inconsistencies. Yet in spite of this my intuition keeps pulling me towards a townie read for him. Here are a few of the things that are informing this stance:
First and foremost is gumshoe's reckless and active posting style. I just don't see him as someone who is checking his posts with team members or even as someone who is going to a mafia QT and discussing his moves. He strikes me as playing by the seat of his pants, which is something I would not expect of scum on day1. This is supported by the little inconsistencies in his posting (I am thinking specifically about the one trackd00r pointed out)
Secondly, gumshoe has both continued to defend himself about the poll while admitting that it makes him look scummy. I would expect a couple things from a scum put in a similar situation. Either he would play it off as a ploy and a joke in order to get people talking (which he did somewhat) and then try to put it behind him, or he would take some early shots at throwing suspicion onto someone else. He did not try to put it behind him, he even says that you would be crazy not to be suspicious of him for the poll. He took a long long time to start throwing actual suspicions around which I think is a long time to wait when you are scum and in the spotlight early.
Like I said at the start, this is a stance based on intuition, not solid logic. So feel free to pick at it.
I'll leave you with a bit of information that I've been keeping track of.
People who have been defending/supporting gumshoe (soft or otherwise): struck out names are for those who have switched
DoYouHas, Alderan, Janaan, TKHawkins,
People who have been attacking/suspicious of gumshoe: MidnightGladius, blae000, ET, Steveling(kinda), trackd00r, sl0osh, Dimmuklok, jaj22,
the big thing here is that Do You is basically saying that from his point of view anyone who suspects me(gumshoe) is either wrong or mafia. The problem? Look at all the people in the suspects chair.
The suspects include everyone he has called out or threatened and then some. He's making a direct correlation between what he considers scummy behaviour and the people who were suspicious of me, so if he were a bit more specific here you could get a read on who he thinks is scum for accusing me, but he throws way too many people out there into the suspicious section(over half the town) the list cannot be used to ascertain Has's opinions because it's too big. The guys on your side though? We see janaan, your biggest supporter, hawk whose a lurker and Alderan who is also complimented by janaan and track.
Another thing, you are the only veteranish player on your side of the list, very curios when you think about it, the other veterans are naturally suspicious of anything so blatant as my poll, thats why theyre veteranish, you though stand alone, resolved in your faith in me.
I don't believe you, you should be on the other side of that list, hell you even were a little suspicious a short while before you posted this list(you said so yourself).
Why is DO making this list, why is he helping me the person whose most suspicious? To be honest I don't really think its to save me, I think its a preliminary strike, if I die and flip green he looks good because he didn't suspect me and he gets to crumb suspicion on sloosh and ech or any one else on this HUGE list of suspects. This list is meant to be a tool of Do's later on in the game once I'm lynched.
This is a pretty big risk to take as town just to gain some cred though, Yet as mafia there is not a risk at all in defending me(gumshoe) because a) you know that I'm town because I'm not part of your mafia and you therefore know that when I flip I wont draw any real suspicion back to you, in fact if I'm lynched you look stronger as a result because you were right about me all along while everyone else according to you was suspicious because they were in the suspicion department(huh, just realized that the number of people in the suspicion section was 8, majority vote. Enough to get me lynched.)
now reason b) I'm under fire, so you know I'll gladly accept your aid without suspicion, also because I'm on fire you know theres a good chance I'll be lynched day one or day two, in other words your investment in me will pay off very quickly, ill die you'll say something along the lines of "I TOLD YOU SO" to everyone and gain massive influence, enough to linch someone like sloosh who you've marked out since the start of the game.
Also I don't care what you thought, your choice vote to sloosh did three things, 1, wasted a vote, 2 put more doubt on sloosh 3, allowed you to separate yourself from the ramifications of the vote. these things aren't good for town, they're good for you, HAS is just helping HAS.
You are wasting our time, and you almost wasted our vote. Your not looking too friendly and neither is your fan club, whose support seemed to have just vanished on the seven winds the moment we began attacking you.
Trackdoor do you still support Has? Why?
all these questions will be answered soon! find out whose scum next time on dragon ballzeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Night night
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On February 19 2012 16:23 DoYouHas wrote: On a side note, if you are going to shorten my name, please use DYH. It sticks out to me far more than Do, or Has.
kk DYH, k so about manner, I have an issue, listen to this quote
+ Show Spoiler +MannerKiss, his fairly immediate response to me calling him out told me he was paying attention to the thread IE, actively lurking. The two explanations for which would be a new townie unsure of what to post, or a new scum unsure of what to post. The one-liner back at me and his lack of a response to me trying to call him out a second time make me feel it is more likely the latter.
You know who said that? Someone confident, someone who is logical, I 100 percent agreed with the you who wrote that and I still do, so why in babylons name you would swap this opinion for this?
+ Show Spoiler +sl0osh: It may be that sl0osh just has not had time to sit down and really work things out yet, but what he has posted so far still makes me suspicious of him. I already made my original post against him, and that has largely been dealt with. He provided an explanation, and I thought it was reasonable. What isn't reasonable is his extreme lack of taking a stance. I divide his responses into 3 things: responses to pressure, explanation of the game, expressing his own views under his own volition. It is VERY troubling to me how much of the content he has posted fits into those first two categories.
Explanation of the game: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8)
Responses to pressure: ET vs sl0osh (1) (2) (3) (4)
Expressing his own views: (1) (2) (3)
Take note that the only person he has expressed an opinion on that didn't first attack him is gumshoe, and even those opinions are non-committal. sl0osh has done almost exactly what ET has done, except he hasn't provided us with any stances that we can later use against him. I refuse to believe that with 4hours left in the day, sl0osh has no opinions or cases worth posting. He is just trying to slide by, I won't let him.
this is such a weaker case in comparison, and phrases like + Show Spoiler +He is just trying to slide by, I won't let him Make it sound as if you knew no one would vote for him , which means you wasted this vote. If you had rallied us to attack Manner, we most definitely would've met the call and would've at the very least dealt with a lurker.
Instead we barely lynched dim and manner didn't even get a single bloody vote.
DYH if you really are trying to contribute i ask that you be willing to vote for at least two people tomorrow, if Sloosh continues to write insubstantial stuff then fight again, but if he steps up at least entertain the notion that he's town so you don't end up being a factor in a no lynch(which we can no longer afford really).
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Sigh, I'm just gonna go back through the filters a hundred times or so and maybe read some old games. My stuff from now on will be much shorter and hopefully more constructed, DoYou your argument for Matthew is very solid, I retract my accusation that you drew suspicion away from him. In fact earlier manner said you had a pretty strong town vibe, why would he say that if you pressed/accused him and he was mafia? Sounds like his first post was just a slip.
If anyone has any questions ask. Otherwise I'll start making a case for who I DONT think is mafia.
when does night end?
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steveling, whats your opinion on DYH?
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I agree for what thats worth.
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+ Show Spoiler +You then say that lynching a bad towny(yourself that is) is wrong. No dude,it's not wrong, and in your case, it's actually recommended.
So do you still propose lynching me even if I'm town?
Also
+ Show Spoiler +On February 19 2012 15:30 gumshoe wrote: One of my biggest concerns going into the vote was that it felt like the majority of us were set on the players who had made common individual mistakes. It feels like were not really entertaining the notion that the mafia might actually be playing well because were so set on the idea that they are obvius and awful.
On February 19 2012 15:30 gumshoe wrote: Theres a chance(I wont say a good one because I got fried for that last time) that one of these intelligent players is mafia
On February 19 2012 15:30 gumshoe wrote: Because this is my nightmare scenario, I think until we lynch a mafia we need to actively consider the worst case scenario ,the possibility that the mafia has the mental upper hand, that they are intelligent and have come up with plans to adapt if a teammate catches fire.
Each and every one of these statements is designed to throw us into chaos chasing our tails. It's the pinnacle of a fluff scum post.
We all need to start considering an effective mafia as well as an incompetent one for our next vote, I'm sorry if thats painful for you to hear steve.
our first four candidates were all very blatant seeming mafia, the list seemed to go on the basis that the mafia was weak and would slip up early in the game. Note we only had one lurker on that list. My accusation of DHY was weak, but I wanted to take my own advice and not just encourage other people to accuse good players, rather I wanted try to find a scenario where mafia might have that upper edge, (but I dont think I did the greatest job at it, still I stand by DO's support of me being a risk free move if hes mafia) I propose that you at least try and do the same, unless you have other pressing matters, which... you clearly dont.
+ Show Spoiler +Congratulations gumshoe, I just wasted 1 more hour.
That was over 7 hours ago, this was the span of time was when you were supposed to be thriving, providing quality analysis. Instead you just banged you head against the wall that is me for an hour, ignored the fight between sloosh and DYH, and then neglected to provide any insight regarding the mislynch, as if your opinion on it is just "woops!"
I understand your suspicious of me, to be honest i don't mind if your vote stays on me.
If town wants to lynch me because I'm a bad townie the time is now, because if we mislynch one more time we wont have that kind of wiggle room, but you've already made your case against me clear, its there for anyone who wants to read it.
So please something else, suggest a new plan, or look back at the voting patterns just before our mislynch.
Or do I need to attack you again just to get you to say something?
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On February 20 2012 06:17 Steveling wrote: Ya gumshoe I know, my plan on checking someone else didn't materialize cause you added fuel to the fire and I didn't have the time to read all day today.
Gonna sleep now, god(and gum) willing I'll do some more constructive play tomorrow.
Please before you go to be can I get your opinion on DYH?
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On February 20 2012 09:24 DoYouHas wrote: Ok, we need to look closely at jaj22's posts now. The three most common reasons mafia hit someone are because they are on the right track, because they are largely considered a confirmed townie, or because mafia suspect them of being blue. I did not spot any obvious things pointing towards him being blue in a quick run through of his filter. This makes me think that he was killed for either for being close to a confirmed townie or because he was on the right track. He consistently pushed Midnight, he leaned town for both gumshoe and ET. Those were the main points of his stances, there were a few smaller ones. I am definitely taking this as a reason to reevaluate Midnight.
I think your wrong Do, he screamed blue. Look at his responses to my early assessment of him(his responses are the ones bolded)
+ Show Spoiler +Hes hostile very hostile, but doesn't seem like mafia.
I just don't like day 1, because I can't read anyone who doesn't have a decent post count. That's why I'm concentrating on trying to make people post better. If I'm sounding hostile I should correct that because it's likely to put people off posting.
All these things can be interpreted as good mafia play though. What really seals the deal for me in thinking hes town is his efforts to communicate with other mafia semish veterans.
Actually I thought I was mostly ignoring them because they had a decent post output and hadn't done anything daft
My one complaint is that jaj keeps virtually all his findings to himself so far. I expect a case out of him at least before vote just because It seems almost certain that he's picking up a lot on almost everyone here.
Nah, there's no-one that I really want to lynch yet. Hopefully that'll change as the post count increases.
Jaj actively tried to tone down my positive assessment of him. He could've just not responded to this post. For mafia this seems like a big give away.
On top of that Jaj had only one major accusation/ongoing fight all game(against mg) which means lynching him allows many distracting conflicts to stay in place because he had so little interaction with anyone but Mg as opposed to players like DYH and sloosh who have had fights with multiple people.
Also Jaj he was a heavy mediator/directer of town. His play was guided well informed and somewhat subdued but not absent, if you asked me who I thought was blue before last night I would've definitely said jaj.
In the wake of Jaj's death Midnight remains a strong candidate for suspicion, but I'd like to point out that unlike Dyh who everyone attacked the moment he seemed suspicious Mg has obtained some interesting support , heres an example from Hawkins
TkHawkins
+ Show Spoiler +jaj Says flashy and aggressive play are not scummy when talking about Ech. But that's also how he is playing. Convenient eh? Would like more of an explanation about why Midnight in particular deserves a pressure vote, when there are so many others that could have used that too.
I really don't like this above post, it sounds like Hawkins is trying to deflect Jazz away from Midnight without actually looking like he's supporting mid, also in the process he tries crumbing suspicion on Jaz. This is exactly the kind of support I'd expect out of scum.
There a few others who seem to be helping him in a non confrontational way, but right now I want to address Hawk who hasn't contributed much and has suspiciously supported Mg, who seems by far the most suspicious and whose death at this point I think will yield the most information.
Also in response to Ech about killing jaz being a bad move, I really think it was the best move possible for these reasons
Jaj was the least suspicious player in the game at the time of his death. He only had one accusation active and that was against someone who would look suspicious regardless who died, Mg.
The following conflicts have remained intact depite Jaj's death
Sloosh-DYH
Ech-Mg
Steveling-Gum
Manner-everyone
Nothing is resolved by Jaj's death, Mg looks bad regardless unless hes lynched and shows up as town. Plus assuming that MG isnt mafia because jaj's death would obviously incriminate him is wifom all the way. In fact if we start thinking that the mafia is framing mg that might actually be the surest way to let him completley slip out of our sights.
Here are My suspects
Hawk, Mg and Manner(where the hell is this guy?)
I'm putting Steveling on hold because he came to mg's aid in such a blatant manner, but I'm still suspicious of him.
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On February 20 2012 10:05 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:19 gumshoe wrote: I have an aching feeling that Ech will flip green if we kill him ) : that opening move of his was almost as bad as mine and hes supposed to be good, I cant imagine him being coached by other mafia through all this. I hate it but its gonna have to be a no lynch unless gladeus says he eats babies or something. Maybe we can vote for one of the lurkers? Manner/michael? Zell?
##Vote: MidnightGladius I enlarged and bolded what I thought and still think is a scum slip... scum know who are town
We have all had to go on gut feelings at points throughout this game, I'm still here despite all reason(re read my early posts again euuugh) mostly because of several gut feelings, I apologize if that seemed suspicius to you, but look at this post will you Mattchew.
Jaj
+ Show Spoiler +I'm not sure you're reading this properly. After being caught out, Gumshoe has admitted to substantial dishonesty through his early posts, including one that he doublespaced for EchelonTee. If what you're looking for is liars, we have a confirmed one already.
The only reason I haven't voted him is that players who make this sort of ridiculous and dishonest plan in newbie games have a nasty habit of flipping town.
Jaj basicaly said that I looked like scum but he didn't vote for me because he had a feeling that I would flip green because of how ridicules I was at the start. Just like I had a feeling Ech would flip green if we lynched him because of his overly aggressive risky attitude. Is Jaj mafia then? Huh, nope he was the detective. Maybe we should've have lynched him yesterday though for his uber scummy behaviour when we had the chance right Manner/macchew? I was siding with Jaj's assessments of Ech and Mg, and I had my own personal ghosts to hammer out with Mg as everyone knows, that is why I refused to vote for Ech and instead voted for Mg.
Any more questions or accusations manner Macch? or maybe ( god and gum forbid) some new contributions or reads?
Side note:If nothing new comes up I will post my vote of Midnight or Manner/machew within the hour.
In the meantime i'm gonna go through Hawks filter a bit.
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On February 20 2012 10:09 Mattchew wrote: i replaced manner
That doesn't change your original role -_- so I can still hold you accountable for manners early actions. by the way while your busy with me what do you think of Steveling?
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DYH what do you think of my argument about Jaj being the best pick due to his death leaving so many conflicts intact, and what do you think of Hawk? The reason I ask the first question is because I think you and sloosh might have to drop your fight and I think I have to stop attacking Steveling as well, because I feel like the mafia took care to leave these flimsy conflicts intact so they could continue to create chaos, thats why I think they killed jaj despite the fact that the case for him being blue was not 100 percent(though as I mentioned earlier it did seem pretty strong from my perspective). That is unless Jaj posed the biggest threat regardless and just had to die. Which do you think was the bigger reason? conflict preservation or threat elimination?
Oh and the second question about Hawk is just out of curiosity(SUSPICIOUS CURIOSITY!)
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On February 20 2012 10:52 Mattchew wrote: lets not give scum too much credit nor get in our heads about scum kills (it will drive you crazy and the more you think and type about it, the more scum will fuck with you in the future)... jaj was just played really townie, and they shot him.
steveling reads as town to me
Man I like you even less than manner, you are trying to discredit everything I've said not by addressing it, but by saying I post too much and claiming its Wifom to think about why scum kill, DYH and sloosh are also playing super townie, but they don't get shot, why? Because their fighting each other.
Jaj was just fighting Mg who several other players have rightfully attacked, mafia is clearly trying to preserve all the small fights that are going on right now to confuse us, oh and don't give mafia much credit? What? Again were being caught in this mentality that mafia is playing badly, for gods sake why? Why are players only entertaining obvious scenarios and not at least considering several possibilities?
Were only on day two, we can still try and ask ourselves what ELSE could be going on. Also i asked you for a read on steveling, you just said he feels towny, kinda like how I said ech feels towny, should we lynch you because of that scum slip? Please just give me a bit of a read on why you think Steveling is towny. It'll be a good opportunity for you to provide some evidence to back up a claim, which you haven't done so far.
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##Vote: MidnightGladius
Mg we need to know what you are now, because a lot has been going on and you've been at the centre of it, I feel that if we dont get a grasp on the situation today, things are gonna spiral out of control.
Still I really don't want to mislynch you, so if I cant at least somewhat combat your case I will back off and vote to lynch manner/Mich who I think is probably our safest bet.
Ok so unless anyone has anything to ask me Im done posting for the next few hours, but I'll probably be shoving my head in here and there so feel free to ask me questions, respond to me, accuse me or whatever you want.
Night night.
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On February 20 2012 12:08 MidnightGladius wrote: I just got back from a rather exhausting shift at work, and I'm not really in the mood to get back into the rough and tumble.
I see that no one has brought up my case against Alderan, who apparently isn't even on anyone else's radar: There have been no references to him in the last 2 pages, and the ones before that all come from people putting him on a town list. This, incidentally, is why I think town lists are terrible, because if you're wrong, you're giving that player a blank check, and if you're right, then the mafia have a better choice of targets. He said that he'd be back by 7-8 EST, so he should have had a few hours now to respond by now. And he hasn't.
I'm personally perplexed by how people think I'm the most scummy here. We have among us lurkers (Alderan and blae000, who for what it's worth is getting replaced anyways), admitted liars (gumshoe), and players who still haven't explained their actions (Mattchew). I've been trying to play an honest and accountable game, but the major cases against me (EchelonTee, DYH) point at ulterior motives (not having a "town perspective," and not directly addressing a case that I felt had no merit, respectively). The frustrating part of all of this is that, by accusing my intentions and not my actions, you're leaving me with no way to convince you otherwise.
I'm really not sure where to go from here. I have a solid read on Alderan as mafia, but if no one's even going to consider what I've been saying, then I'm going to stop wasting your time. Hopefully, my mislynch will be enough to convince you that you've been going about this the wrong way all along.
I...believe you. Your right, all you've done is play a safe game, I'm just biased against you for accusing me and I apologize for that, what can only sound to me like an honest plea has convinced far more than any case.
##Unvote: MidnightGladius
As for your case on Alderan, I agree with it, but I think right now accusing DYH will accomplish more because I cant see sloosh's beyond angry conviction as Scummy behaviour and killing DYH will answer so many goddam questions, Furthermore I really feel that DYH hasn't as much addressed the accusations against himself as much as he's dropped his attack on Sloosh and taken it up against more obvious players, like you.
That said If both Sloosh and DYH are town and we lynch DYH and then lynch Sloosh because DYH came up green, we are that much closer too losing.
Midnight I'm willing to vote for alderaan and manner/Mitch. I'll follow your lead as to which one. Also I've sorta seen connections between Alderaan and DYH so if alderaan flips scum I think our vote on DYH will be much more consolidated.
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