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Day 2; criticisms To preface, he barely posts anything without attacking me. His posts make no sense, and he clearly doesn't understand the game set up and the principles I use to suggest my plan. That's fine, but what's most important is he only really focuses on how it benefits the demons. Now when I thought up this plan it I considered its drawbacks and the way I saw it benfitting was town > angels >> demons. In my opinion it gave us an edge, while harming the Angels, and truly fucking Demons. But the huge majority of BH's posts only look at Demon's advantages, which quite frankly didn't make sense.
I will elaborate this simply. The demons can't corrupt the blues, because the Angels could be aiming there anyway on top of dealing with the multiple purgatories focused within there. For every townie group player they corrupt they create another detective that searches them out, not Angels. At any point if the Demons get an advantage by corruptions the corrupt players simply claim and get killed by DH/Angels.
Because of this, the Angels have to focus their hiding KP into the blues who we already know. This causes them not to hide results which benefits us information wise. The stalker has to hunt down the corrupted townies. The longer the game draws out the more it benefits us as the Angels are forced to kill into the town circle that protects them from being known to keep the Demons from holding a majority vote.
All we really lose from this was blue anonymity in exchange for confirmed townies, and essentially boosting Angel KP assuming they want to risk shooting into a Jailor's heaven.
Essentially, I don't see a winning scenario for the Demons with my plan, while the Angels would have to walk the tightest rope and hope for utter town incompetence to win.
So moving forward, he not only continues to bring up my plan and how antitown it is and illogically dismissing my arguments which just causes chaos as me and him argue over the same points again and again until my plan is effectively dead. He shuts it down successfully because I don't have the time to argue all day, yet goes a step further and tries to implicate me as scum for it claiming it does things I established it doesn't do.
On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:So, here's RoL. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 06 2012 13:09 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today.
##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote:On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: Voting System:
This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact.
ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses.
Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote: So I claim townie
On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Angelic Acolyte (x1)
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. You may communicate outside of the thread with your angelic teammates, who are:
He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD This is the post I am referring to here. You can read the whole exchange after this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan.
On day two, I am not attempting to defend my plan for the sake of implementation but more because he's using at as a basis to call me scum, which is flawed in so many ways.
On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan
I don't see how he's town The biggest thing though is his constant misrepresentation of things that I said and ignoring shit. 1. I explained this, I was finishing up responsibility in a lylo scenario where we won as town. 2. I explained my logic. If you have a problem with it then attack the logic, don't blanket misrepresent my post.
On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. 3. My plan isn't bad. When we are discussing the merits and everything don't blanket call me scum for your inability to read. It's just more examples of complete misrepresentation of the facts.
On January 10 2012 09:07 Blazinghand wrote: Are you serious? RoL literally lurked all day d1 and then posted the shittiest of all possible plans "herp derp let's mass roleclaim" then disappared again. Link me to your case on risk.nuke and I will consider it, do my own analysis, and offer a read, but do you REALLY THINK ROL'S PLAY HAS BEEN PRO TOWN??? Further misrepresentation. I was gone for like 8 hours between my plans initial posting, me sleeping, posting a bit from work, then getting home and defending it more. I have shit to do and he continues professing bullshit. The thing is, when you have 20% of all the god damn posts people might begin to believe you after a while.
On January 10 2012 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 09:24 Refallen wrote:On January 10 2012 09:10 Blazinghand wrote: Refallen do you think there are any circumstances under which a town RoL would suggest that plan? RoL is a pretty smart guy. Yes. In the pre-game someone suggested a mass role-claim too. It isn't impossible for a town RoL to suggest the plan, and at the very least it seems that he has thought through it enough to address some common criticisms. But that's not the point. I rather stay on risk.nuke because I think he's a better lynch, I remember the last time you tried one of your hustlin' cases, though I do agree that RoL needs to do more this cycle. Just because I voted for risk.nuke does not mean I think RoL to be town. The fact of the matter is, the case on Erandorr was sound, and he got lynched because he played like scum. I think there are 9 players who agree with me on that. Furthermore, saying "well Erandorr was lurking too" isn't the point. The main point of my post isn't RoL's lurking. It's what he's posted and what he hasn't posted. Things RoL has posted: a massive, terrible plan that took a lot of time to write up and is anti-town. Things RoL hasn't posted: anything useful. This isn't a case of a guy lurking. This is a case of a guy lurking, then putting a lot of effort into something that would sink the town. Are you really saying "RoL needs to do more this cycle" when he has actively suggested possibly the worst plan of all time? No, I think RoL has done just what he's wanted to. see for yourself my actual case on RoL, since you seem to think i'm claiming we should lynch him due to inactivity: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 He keeps up dominating posting and shutting down contention without explaining himself.
The big thing here is he doesn't look for ANYONE except me.
On January 13 2012 03:38 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 03:37 layabout wrote: Blazinghand please stop being an idiot. Make actual arguments and criticsms. Realise that you will not be right all of the time. Stop the tunnelling. Grow a pair. >no you're an idiot >um what >I'm not right all of the time, see E-dawg >I'm gonna push RoL because he's scum. The fact that you're blind to the truth doesn't mean i'm tunneling >no u LayAbout points it out and he continues aggressively dismissing players.
Yet at the end of the day what happens? He is so sure I am scum but because I know how to defend myself without spamming 14 pages into a game he won't get a lynch on me, then just jumps over to risk.nuke to kill another townie.
On January 11 2012 23:47 ZBot wrote:End of Day 2 Lynched: risk.nuke (9): Bluelightz, Refallen, - Bluelightz, syllogism, Bluelightz, Zephirdd, RebirthOfLeGenD, Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Cwave, Jackal58Current votes: Tyrran (2): HarbingerOfDoom, DirkzorRebirthOfLeGenD (1): Blazinghand, Mr. Wiggles, Zephirdd, Spaackle, Cwave, - Zephirdd, - Spaackle, - Blazinghand, - CwaveCwave (0): Dirkzor, - DirkzorDirkzor (0): Jackal58, - Jackal58
The second day in some ways felt better than the first. The extreme weather that battered the area the day before was not present, in its place was an eerie calm that made the survivors strangely nervous. Many took the time to search for whatever food and clothing they could find, and stashed them in secret hoards. The conversations between the living were carried out with suspicion, no one could trust anyone else. By midday, the air had become unbearably hot. The sun seemed larger and oddly red in the sky. The heat of its rays was intense on the skin. A few would collapse for moments at a time in exhaustion, but no one would find any relief. Those who were religous cursed their gods for allowing them to suffer such a fate. But their will was not broken. The town's resolve to identify and eliminate the inhuman invaders in their midst continued to be strong. Survival. Victory. Revenge. Whatever the reason, those that remained continued the fight of their lives. As each individual formed their own opinions, the throne continued to glow and hum. As soon as their innermost thoughts came to an invisible consensus, a figure was abruptly jerked towards the throne and spire. Again, beams of light from the whirling wheels began to focus upon the condemned. In no time, a scream of pain pierced the air as risk.nuke's body exploded into cloud of pink mist. risk.nuke, the Town Vanilla was lynched Day 2!It is now Night 2. The night will end 2012-01-13 10:00:50. (That's approximately 1 day, 10:13:00 from now.) It just doesn't make sense as a townie. You think I am scum 100%, so completely certain yet you abandon your guns after tunneling me for 5 straight actual days in place of an easy mislynch? I don't get it, no one does. Sure you thought he was mildly suspicious but you can't very well say "Sure I think hes town, but I can't get you all to kill RoL so I'm switching over"
The fact is your actions don't line up with your words and you spam the shit out of the game to get your way. I conclude that after all this crap you must be an Angel. I have shit to do and am getting yelled at, when I get up tomorrow we can throw down more, I needed to cut this case short. I also have a few more things I need to write tomorrow but we can get to that later.
Anyway, ##Vote BlazingHand
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It wouldn't let me post it as one thing, I have never had that happen before.
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I'm out now, I will post more later. I don't intend on solely tunnelling him, I want to talk about a few other players I just didn't have time.
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On January 13 2012 19:47 syllogism wrote: If you don't have time, you don't join games. If something comes up during the game, you sub out. This is the first time in 9 days you post something that actually matters. Do you think that is acceptable? You've had several 24 hour periods of inactivity, even after being warned about it (for some reason you didn't get force replaced).
Some parts of your case against blazing are laughable. His bullying makes people less likely to challenge him or sheep him? It certainly makes people more likely to ignore him, but other than that it's nonsense. This would be his first game as scum and second game overall. Is this the kind of play you would expect from his first play as scum? Did you look at his Student mafia filter?
He certainly is open and aggressive about his reads, even if they are all poorly supported; unfortunately I would need to know if I can expect him to make sense for that to be anything more than a null. Some aspects of his play do look suspicious, but especially with 5 scum still left he is a very bad lynch.
What do you think about Jackal? Tyrran? Grackaroni? HoD? What do you think AoD did on night 1?
I'm not sure how much effort I'll bother putting into the game today. Some (at least mostly) townies have been basically actively sabotaging the game. Not to say I've played well as my posts have lacked in content, been spammy and I've been wrong several times. However at least I've made it clear that I care about game, care about who is being lynched and established my innocence quite early to anyone with a pair of eyes.
I don't have time to flood a game with 16 pages of posts but I have time to play more or less. I got warned for one 36 hour period of inactivity. And I spent my whole activity arguing with BH over dumb shit because he wouldn't stop, so maybe I should of. I didn't even get to finish a part of my case on him because I had to go out and was already a half hour late.
I don't see how you can not realize what the purpose and intent behind his aggressive dismissive posting is, or realize what effect that has. I have used it before as mafia to get my way, its effective. This isn't something you can disagree or agree with, its an actual style and method used to get your way and it works even better with his spammy style since it gets reinforced.
I said I have more reads to get into today but I ran out of time, I don't think you appreciate how long it look to read a 16 page filter and write that analysis.
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On January 14 2012 00:18 syllogism wrote: Jackal RoL made promises too and didn't keep them. Are you not up to lynching him? What about dirkzor, your previous random vote you never bothered to push or justify? If you've to choose between Tyrran and RoL today, which one will you be voting? Don't say shit that's not true. I have fulfilled on every single promise I made. I said I was finishing up responsibility and would pick up when the game ended, look when the game ended and when I started posting. I said that my first major contribution was going to be a plan I have been trying to wrap my head around and it was, and it was posted when I said it would be. I gave a timeframe in which I would be around that day to explain/defend my plan and I was there to do so. I told you guys that I would be around and post an analysis within the last 15 hours and I did.
So please, before you shoot from the hip with no reasoning see that I followed through with everything I ever said I would do.
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On January 14 2012 00:52 syllogism wrote: Even if we assume your assertion about aggressive dismissive posting to be correct, do you think it's something mafia is more likely to do? Being aggressive is certainly generally towny. How likely do you think it is for a person who has not played mafia elsewhere and playing only his second game here (according to his TL mafia census post) to play like that if he happened to roll scum? Do you seriously think he is the best lynch with 5 mafia left?
You make the mistake of thinking you need experience to pull off that style or that he should be timid because its his first game as scum. You can tell by his posting he doesn't possess a timid gene. The way you post matters much less on skill and experience and more so on how you are. Mafia can't be afraid to get out there and dominate discussion with there agenda. As a player with his attributes he actually fits perfectly into being able to do that.
That being said, combine what he has been doing D1 with his bullraging absolute tunnel of me day 2, yes, I think he is scum or I wouldn't of voted for him. I need to do more write ups when I get a few minutes later but I feel confident in my read of BH because my conclusions arrive from sound premises, if you want to discuss any issue feel free I have nothing to hide and I don't believe there will be any question I can't reasonably answer.
That being said, I will read more and post more analysis later anyway. I feel like this happens every damn game with me though, someone calls me scummy as shit for inactivity, I be productive, then get bitched at for actually producing something.
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On January 14 2012 01:05 syllogism wrote: That's not a mistake. I did not say you necessarily need experience, I was talking about probabilities.
WBG posts a lot like him as town and is a bit more subdued as scum. This isn't a game of the coin flipping heads, people are different and how they play will be different. WBG is actually a good example of exactly what I was talking about.
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On January 14 2012 00:52 Dirkzor wrote: Jackal.. Have you forgotten me? I was so used to your devoted attention!
Assuming Wiggles was town, and i assume that, it puts more pressure on RoL. That was the last person that Wiggles talked about (and attacking me about). Combine that with a wall-of-text case that is actually not very big in terms of content I see RoL as more scummy then before he started scumhunting. His case is just not good, its just long so it appears to be good/solid. Long is not always better. This is such sound logic! I am going to kill one of my attackers further implicating me.
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On January 14 2012 01:44 Blazinghand wrote:Well, RoL, it looks like you've finally decided to make a case. It took till D3 ingame and several days of harassment but you're finally doing something that may nominally appear to be useful. However, your case is against me, so I will defend myself. I don't count out the scumhunting efforts of scum automatically in this game because there are two factions-- you could well believe your own case, and be a Demon trying to edge his team back into this game, etc. Without further ado, my point-by-point rebuttals: Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Part I: Day 1 Day 1 for BlazingHand can be characterized by a couple of issues that I think are worth noting, but barring his Day 2 activity wouldn't necessarily consider top candidate. Firstly, he focuses heavily on the set up. Then we look at his interaction with the Palmar. The third thing I am not too sure how to feel about is his overbearing activity. He is absolutely dominating the towns posts, his filter quite frankly is such a ridiculous amount to read it would scare off most people. I know I usually wouldn't bother reading WBG's filter in games because its usually like 8-10 pages within the first couple of days. By the end of day two his filter was 14 pages long, and accomplished an absolutely retarded amount of nothing except making this game insanely annoying to read. To be fair, the actual length of my filter (in terms of word count rather than, say, post count) isn't so bad. Most my posts are overwhelmingly short except for my analysis posts, which are few but long. My filter is susbtantially longer than average for this game, but not so much that it's some herculean feat to actually read it. I gladly encourage people to read and think for themselves rather than blindly accepting what RoL has to say (or even what *I* have to say, as a matter of principle) about any person's filter. By the end of day two, my filter didn't do nothing-- I successfully, erm, pushed an Erandorr lynch. Now, granted, Erandorr flipped town, but most people thought he was scum, and voted their thoughts. It wasn't like I was posting mindless drivel. Your filter sucks and is massive regardless of how you look at it. Way to try to defend the Erandorr lynch by shoving it off on to other people. I didn't even mention that but your defensiveness on the issue is worth noting.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:So that being said let's get to his set up analysis. Now generally speaking, it is considered a bit scummy to dwell on a set up and post a about it. In this case due to the extremely unusual nature of the game I might be able to forgive that. For point of reference, I will include the posts in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote: Sup guys? I'm Blazinghand. :DDDDD
A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time.
The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections.
The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on.
Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote.
Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote.
So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though.
Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find?
Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels.
Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues.
Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" Show nested quote + The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier On January 04 2012 17:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 17:40 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 17:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff?Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. The last post specifically, I have bolded an interesting point. He wants us to share plans, then shits all over me when I do it. Fine whatever, the set up posting was minor we can let that slide. The setup posting was minor? ._. there was nothing else to talk about. I don't know why you brought this up. If you don't feel this is an important part of your case, then I will not address it other than this: I wanted us to share plans, so I could promote a healthy town discussion and find scum. Someone shared plans-- and that person happened to be scum, and it became clear from his horrid, terrible plan (at least to me) that this was the case. This is not inconsistent with me wanting us to share plans. I told you I could accept that it was minor and not a huge tell, but given that your day 2 posting was scummy as shit it was worth mentioning as an additive. Nice way to twist your words to justify getting up my ass. Regardless of how scummy you perceived my plan itself as, everyone else saw the way I was pushing it and how passionately I fought for it as being town. You seem to be the only outlier on that issue.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:The next part I want to focus on is his other player interactions. Generally he is hostile with most players, while on Day 1 it can be a good way to generate discussion I don't believe that was entirely what he was doing, some of it was straight up bullying which just makes it so townies are less likely to challenge you, and more likely to sheep with you to avoid confrontations. I will include some of the posts in a spoiler once again. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 18:06 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote: I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts. Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy. On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote:IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote: Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. On January 05 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 04:19 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote: If bluelightz doesn't contribute by the end of the day we can re-evaluate. I assume you mean an IRL day or something here right? We're not made out of time. Bluelightz had 3 hours, and he spent them making one-liners and posts that were literally meaningless. I consider this play to be anti-town. I don't care who does it-- you could have done it, and it would be anti-town. Then he bails. Given that he knew he had to bail in a few hours, he could have made a post with, well, content. But he didn't. No, I meant the first in-game day, that is to say up to 72 hours. Get used to certain players not immediately establishing their innocence, because that is going to be the norm. Whether bluelightz is going to be one of them remains to be seen, but there are "veterans" who to some extent do it every game. The fact that it's anti-town does not mean the optimal play is to lynch them every game for it. If you can pressure them to contribute, that's fine. The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:Also is Mr. Wiggles actually playing? I see he edited his only post to say "can't", but he is still on the player list. Is Mr. Wiggles playing? On January 05 2012 04:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:28 layabout wrote:Bluelightz i think...: he lacks confidence in his own abilities that he may try to lurk that he has not tried to help that what he has written makes sense from a "town that has to get on a plane and will have limited internet acess" perspective he has provided us with very little that can be analysed effectively i do not think that there you can make all of those inferences + Show Spoiler +"profoundly unuseful" and "anti town" and say that they are his verdict and his damnation. BH at this point in time nearly any case you can come up with needs to forced and isn't necessarily helpful You seem to like throwing your vote around but do you really think that at the current moment in time everyone should vote for bluelightz to kill him, possibly end the day and let night actions happen? if i were the type i might accuse you of "trying to gain town cred by forcing a case based off of thin air." i will not do that. If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote: What i think we should do today: I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. Solid case indeed chap, you base it off useless posts. Definitely no signs of weakness. On January 05 2012 04:36 Blazinghand wrote: Look if Bluelightz gets off his plane, realizes he's being a tool, and decides to seriously help out, I won't have as much of a case on him any more because he'll be being, well, helpful.
It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town.
step 1) be helpful step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you And this guy gets up my ass about being a dick to players. On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:26 Grackaroni wrote: KK I'm back. I suggested the Bluelightz lynch and it looks like BH took a lot of shit because of me. No I took a lot of shit because of me. You didn't contribute to my Bluelightz idea at all, except to remind me he existed and is bad. If you like the bluelightz lynch, make a case and make your vote like a man. If you don't like it, don't do it. You make expand and defense it and you do so with vigor. Being like "hey guys should we pressure Bluelightz" and then apologizing for it doesn't help my case against him, and it doesn't help him either. Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. Oh cool, because you said not to be abrasive, then its all fine. This is just to establish the needless aggression and discouraging players. I want to establish a difference. When he is doing it here, it is to discourage people from coming against him. When I was posting abrasively in defense of my plan it served the purpose of attempting to shut down contention fast and efficiently because it was a rush scenario. The difference is his is to shut down objections to himself by less aggressive players, while mine was a tactical decision to help my plan get going on an extremely constricted time basis. Now for how he acted about Palmar. He starts off subtle trying to justify the case, then gets full swing behind it before jumping to an easier lynch in Erandorr/Risk.nuke. I will explain what I mean in the spoiler. So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand?
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar.
All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies.
Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post.
I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure.
The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr.
I really don't.
And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines.
It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on.
So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles!
*shakes head*
##Vote Palmar
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: He basically does an entire analysis using wiggles posts which makes him hold zero accountability. On top of this he uses it to justify a vote he has been easing himself into.
If you read the filter there is some more posts about palmar, but I feel this adequately sums it up. He hesitates to engage Palmar, then does it vicariously through wiggles arguments. When Palmar flips he could look good for this if it wasn't a two faction game. This is the reasoning I use to determine he must be an Angel. The part that makes him scummy is his absolutely shameless tunneling of me for 5 straight days, then compromising on a different mislynch.
' Um, ok so I don't know if you actually read my posts, but I'm basically saying I think Mr. Wiggle's arguments are completely shitty and I make up my own to attack Palmar with. At that time of my post, I seriously entertained the idea that they were both scum from different factions. The idea that I'm at once "aggressive and abrasive" but also "afraid to stick my neck out" is dumb. Let me show you the key areas of my case against Palmar where I basically smack down Mr. Wiggles: " Show nested quote +Blazinghand Wrote: Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar." " Show nested quote +Blazinghand Wrote: So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town." Show nested quote +Blazinghand Wrote:
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar.
what, you think I wouldn't remember MY OWN CASE? I didn't steal it from wiggles, I MADE IT UP MYSELF and SHAT UNREMORSEFULLY ON WIGGLES. That's right guys, I wasn't noncomittal, as RoL claims: I STUCK MY NECK the fuckk out and attacked both players. I said A) Palmar is scum B) Wiggles is right for the wrong reasons and I constructed my own case. Read the actual goddamn post before listening to RoL's bullshit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=27#532My case against Palmar speaks for itself. I will be continuing this, addressing RoL's second case post in my next post.
This is a load of shit. You used wiggles arguments as a hinging point so if palmar flipped in a bad way you can blame him. You didn't "Shat all over wiggles", not even fucking close. Since when the fuck would
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
Qualify as shitting all over someone? Hint: It doesn't.
Your case against Palmar does speak for itself. You used wiggles arguments to create a point for you to start, mildly disagree with wiggles which could set him up for a day two lynch should the Palmar vote take off and then fail to hit scum, and then now that I call you out on it you try to completely exaggerate your negatively towards wiggles and your hostility towards palmar to justify your vote.
Bullshit.
|
On January 14 2012 02:07 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Day 2; criticisms "wahh why is blazinghand so mean? my plan is good you guys... why do you all have to be assholes" Whoa, RoL, no need to call us all assholes. That's totally uncalled-for. We're all friends here. In response to your statement proper: No, your plan is bad. Were you town, I'd think you might literally be the only guy besides risk.nuke in this game who thought that plan was even a remotely good idea. You can't dismiss my logic, once again you don't even attack what I actually wrote, ignore it, and keep writing bullshit about me. My plan was town aligned, but you among other championed that it wasn't and I couldn't defend that because I don't write 16 pages of posts in two day cycles. This is exactly the shit I accused you of doing that makes you scummy. You are dismissing my arguments without answering them, this is what we were arguing about Day 2, it wasn't even about implementation because there was no way I was going to get it implemented. But to take that a step further and to call me scummy because of your blatant stupidity or malicious ignorance regarding my plan is just plain scummy through and through.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:So moving forward, he not only continues to bring up my plan and how antitown it is and illogically dismissing my arguments which just causes chaos as me and him argue over the same points again and again until my plan is effectively dead. He shuts it down successfully because I don't have the time to argue all day, yet goes a step further and tries to implicate me as scum for it claiming it does things I established it doesn't do. On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:So, here's RoL. On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 06 2012 13:09 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today.
##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote:On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: Voting System:
This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact.
ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses.
Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote: So I claim townie
On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Angelic Acolyte (x1)
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. You may communicate outside of the thread with your angelic teammates, who are:
He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD This is the post I am referring to here. You can read the whole exchange after this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan. Um... what? Let me read that back to you guys again in case you didn't spot the misleading sentence by RoL: Show nested quote +RoL: I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan. Time is against you on Page 56? Oh I guess the end of N1 was coming up huh. Maybe my arguing against you during that crucial time prevented you from pusing your plan, eh? Wait, no.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=49#966
Oh waht's this? Day 2 started 7 pages earlier? Weird, I thought that I shut down your plan? Huh. Weird indeed.
After working for two hours, sorry I made a mistake. But hey, lets do whats been working so long. You can completely blow up my mistake while ignoring the actual argument, if it still works why fix it, amirite?
The point is that I was referring to an exchange that everyone knew happened, I just fucked up the page it occurred on which isn't that friggin important, but somehow you think that discredits everything I said? Read the word, I said "I believe." I wasn't citing absolute fact, I was giving you a general idea of where it was based off what I was reading at the time.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On day two, I am not attempting to defend my plan for the sake of implementation but more because he's using at as a basis to call me scum, which is flawed in so many ways. On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan
I don't see how he's town The biggest thing though is his constant misrepresentation of things that I said and ignoring shit. 1. I explained this, I was finishing up responsibility in a lylo scenario where we won as town. 2. I explained my logic. If you have a problem with it then attack the logic, don't blanket misrepresent my post. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. 3. My plan isn't bad. When we are discussing the merits and everything don't blanket call me scum for your inability to read. It's just more examples of complete misrepresentation of the facts. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan Um... that's literally waht you've done this game. And you can SAY your plan was good all you want, it's still bad ._. I think this is just like so telling of RoL in general. He claims time was against him in the middle of day 2? He still had like several IRL days before the end of night 2 (before any masked flips happened) and he didn't try to get his plan pushed through for the rest of day 2 or any of night 2. He had tons of time. ??? I think RoL is just like misleading us here. I'm not even 100% sure this is a scum move, as his argument is so bad it's beyond meta-- it's just a terrible worthless meaningless QQ argument. "Oh Blazinghand shut down my plan and I ran out of time during the 4 day day/night cycle". You guys had ardently dismissed it. On top of this you are ignoring that shit changed. We were now down one Purgatory role which was one of the fundamental issues that kept the Angels in check. Notice how you are bitching at me for not implementing something that would now hurt the town and help the angels? Don't get me wrong, It still might not be all bad for us but would require an extreme amount more luck but almost guarantees all of our blues dead really fast.
You can't pretend just because what allowed my implementation on the first cycle automatically makes it plausible on Day 2 because no kill was hidden. Palmar was dead and with him a purgatory inducing role which fucks us in the plan and gives an advantage to the Angels. You know, that group I think you are a part of?
Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 10 2012 09:07 Blazinghand wrote: Are you serious? RoL literally lurked all day d1 and then posted the shittiest of all possible plans "herp derp let's mass roleclaim" then disappared again. Link me to your case on risk.nuke and I will consider it, do my own analysis, and offer a read, but do you REALLY THINK ROL'S PLAY HAS BEEN PRO TOWN??? Further misrepresentation. I was gone for like 8 hours between my plans initial posting, me sleeping, posting a bit from work, then getting home and defending it more. I have shit to do and he continues professing bullshit. The thing is, when you have 20% of all the god damn posts people might begin to believe you after a while. On January 10 2012 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:On January 10 2012 09:24 Refallen wrote:On January 10 2012 09:10 Blazinghand wrote: Refallen do you think there are any circumstances under which a town RoL would suggest that plan? RoL is a pretty smart guy. Yes. In the pre-game someone suggested a mass role-claim too. It isn't impossible for a town RoL to suggest the plan, and at the very least it seems that he has thought through it enough to address some common criticisms. But that's not the point. I rather stay on risk.nuke because I think he's a better lynch, I remember the last time you tried one of your hustlin' cases, though I do agree that RoL needs to do more this cycle. Just because I voted for risk.nuke does not mean I think RoL to be town. The fact of the matter is, the case on Erandorr was sound, and he got lynched because he played like scum. I think there are 9 players who agree with me on that. Furthermore, saying "well Erandorr was lurking too" isn't the point. The main point of my post isn't RoL's lurking. It's what he's posted and what he hasn't posted. Things RoL has posted: a massive, terrible plan that took a lot of time to write up and is anti-town. Things RoL hasn't posted: anything useful. This isn't a case of a guy lurking. This is a case of a guy lurking, then putting a lot of effort into something that would sink the town. Are you really saying "RoL needs to do more this cycle" when he has actively suggested possibly the worst plan of all time? No, I think RoL has done just what he's wanted to. see for yourself my actual case on RoL, since you seem to think i'm claiming we should lynch him due to inactivity: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 He keeps up dominating posting and shutting down contention without explaining himself. The big thing here is he doesn't look for ANYONE except me. On January 13 2012 03:38 Blazinghand wrote:On January 13 2012 03:37 layabout wrote: Blazinghand please stop being an idiot. Make actual arguments and criticsms. Realise that you will not be right all of the time. Stop the tunnelling. Grow a pair. >no you're an idiot >um what >I'm not right all of the time, see E-dawg >I'm gonna push RoL because he's scum. The fact that you're blind to the truth doesn't mean i'm tunneling >no u LayAbout points it out and he continues aggressively dismissing players. Yet at the end of the day what happens? He is so sure I am scum but because I know how to defend myself without spamming 14 pages into a game he won't get a lynch on me, then just jumps over to risk.nuke to kill another townie. On January 11 2012 23:47 ZBot wrote:End of Day 2 Lynched: risk.nuke (9): Bluelightz, Refallen, - Bluelightz, syllogism, Bluelightz, Zephirdd, RebirthOfLeGenD, Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Cwave, Jackal58Current votes: Tyrran (2): HarbingerOfDoom, DirkzorRebirthOfLeGenD (1): Blazinghand, Mr. Wiggles, Zephirdd, Spaackle, Cwave, - Zephirdd, - Spaackle, - Blazinghand, - CwaveCwave (0): Dirkzor, - DirkzorDirkzor (0): Jackal58, - Jackal58
The second day in some ways felt better than the first. The extreme weather that battered the area the day before was not present, in its place was an eerie calm that made the survivors strangely nervous. Many took the time to search for whatever food and clothing they could find, and stashed them in secret hoards. The conversations between the living were carried out with suspicion, no one could trust anyone else. By midday, the air had become unbearably hot. The sun seemed larger and oddly red in the sky. The heat of its rays was intense on the skin. A few would collapse for moments at a time in exhaustion, but no one would find any relief. Those who were religous cursed their gods for allowing them to suffer such a fate. But their will was not broken. The town's resolve to identify and eliminate the inhuman invaders in their midst continued to be strong. Survival. Victory. Revenge. Whatever the reason, those that remained continued the fight of their lives. As each individual formed their own opinions, the throne continued to glow and hum. As soon as their innermost thoughts came to an invisible consensus, a figure was abruptly jerked towards the throne and spire. Again, beams of light from the whirling wheels began to focus upon the condemned. In no time, a scream of pain pierced the air as risk.nuke's body exploded into cloud of pink mist. risk.nuke, the Town Vanilla was lynched Day 2!It is now Night 2. The night will end 2012-01-13 10:00:50. (That's approximately 1 day, 10:13:00 from now.) It just doesn't make sense as a townie. You think I am scum 100%, so completely certain yet you abandon your guns after tunneling me for 5 straight actual days in place of an easy mislynch? I don't get it, no one does. Sure you thought he was mildly suspicious but you can't very well say "Sure I think hes town, but I can't get you all to kill RoL so I'm switching over" The fact is your actions don't line up with your words and you spam the shit out of the game to get your way. I conclude that after all this crap you must be an Angel. I have shit to do and am getting yelled at, when I get up tomorrow we can throw down more, I needed to cut this case short. I also have a few more things I need to write tomorrow but we can get to that later. Anyway, ##Vote BlazingHand This is a bunch of BS. There is actually a legitimate criticism in here, though, a kernel of meaningful opposition in a veritable mound of turd. Why did I vote to lynch risk.nuke? Well, I also thought risk.nuke was scum. I wasn't 100% on him like I basically am on RoL. Why did I vote for risk.nuke? What could he possibly say or do that would make me actually more sure of him than RoL? What weird, unanswered questions. I wonder if RoL would PULL UP MY VOTE POST AND SHOW THE EVIDENCE??? No, he wants only to mislead, to misinform. Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:37 Blazinghand wrote:On January 11 2012 15:32 risk.nuke wrote: Whatever, Fuck this.
Lynch me, I'm done. I could fight to stay alive but I don't have any motivation. The entire town is either tunneling me, sheeping and everyone is ignorning everything that doesn't fit me beeing scum-scheme which is a fucking lot. Syllogism the bandwagon starter have failed to provide reasoning and just ignored all of my pleads for him to do so. But to top it of, town seem contempt with allowing votes without reasoning. Even if I were to keep on living I wouldn't have any motivation to play with a town like this, I could say good luck town but you guys are screwed.
Once I flip, lynch syllogism the bad tunneling angel and every fucking one who used something along the lines of this "I don't like RoL as a lynch because of X so I'm going with risk.nuke" for reasoning. ._. no townie would ever say this. Welcome to the top of my list, punk. ##Vote: risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=64#1270The fact of the matter is, risk.nuke made a post that no townie under any circumstances would make. That is simply not a post you make. The job of a townie is to not get lynched first and foremost-- and him doing this indicated to me that he was claiming scum. So I lynched him. And I stand by that decision. [/quote] This is utterly laughable. I can't even recall all the times I have seen people say this. So lets get this straight. You are 100% on me, as you have said how many times? Okay, got it. Yet for some reason you go off and kill risk.nuke who you are less than 100% certain on?
In what way does this make any sense whatsoever as town? If you thought your shit didn't stink when it came to me why the hell would you change cases? It's the same reason I used for voting risk, I know I am not scum so why would I not vote for the other guy who has an infinitely better chance of being scum than I do? You do the opposite of that. You are sure I am scum, but then don't vote for me. That is just flawed in so many ways and full of shit.
But to make it worse you use the beautiful Catch-All of "I think X is 100% scum, but Y is like 90% scum so I'm fine with him." That's bullshit post facto reasoning when you realize you won't get me killed, but still want to get someone killed. If your conviction was truly sound you wouldn't of backed down, not even for a minute. It's not even as if you stopped tunneling either and acknowledged risks case. It was a "well, fuck why not" kill on risk.nuke because it worked towards your agenda.
And that post isn't scummy, its a mark of someone who is tired and defeated. If anything its town, scum rarely give up. Before I give you the chance to though, I will segue this. I don't for a second approve of the mentality he took of not fighting tooth and nail to the end. If you are town, there should always be a way for you to redeem yourself out of a lynch, you just need to look for it. But if you put effort into it and give up it can be viewed two ways, a defeated townie or a mafia hoping for it to viewed as that and not to get lynched, but in my opinion that is stupid way to go about ducking a lynch because arguing is almost always better than not arguing.
But for some reason, you try to use that one post to justify your vote switch. That is truly laughable. If you guys don't kill this guy I don't know what to tell you. These posts just make him look worse. He's using the same avoiding tactics and attacking me using scarecrow arguments. It's complete bullshit. Your defense is a joke and paints an even redder picture of you.
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On January 14 2012 07:20 Blazinghand wrote: As a question you wont' respond do adequately: Why didn't you try to push your plan N2? No masked flips yet that night... it was still possible...
but instead you bailed.
??? It was in the second post you dolt, why would it get a response in the first post?
Because with new information, pursuing my plan day 2 without a second jailor was no where near as favorable as with two jailors and as I say in my post, begins to start favoring the Angels, you know, your team.
Now let me cut you off before you make this painfully obvious and weak next point. If my plan was so easily dismissed by the death of one jailor, how could I feasibly think it was ever good to begin with, and that since a jailor died had we followed suite we would be in a bad position.
This is wrong for several reasons. Had we implemented the plan, night kills may have been very very different because it completely changes the information dynamic. Second of all, the jailor getting night killed was a low probability chance that was worth taking to give us an advantage. Chances are the townie jailor wouldn't die, and I didn't predict our demon hunter would N1 the demon jailor. So it had to do with bad luck, but ultimately we will never know how it could of played out because by not pursuing the plan we change the information dynamic which means we can't speculate or guess how anything would of played out unless we gain the ability to peer into the infinite alternate realities and see the one where we pursued my plan.
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On January 14 2012 07:38 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 07:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: "Why does nobody love me? I thought I'd be able to fool town with my shitty plan and now I'm mad at Blazinghand. I sure hope nobody actually reads my posts and realizes they're all poorly thought out."
I'm sorry man. I truly am. Hopefully next game you roll town or something. lol kk, I will put in more analysis later today/tomorrow, but if this dismissive bullshit isn't enough to justify killing him, then I don't know what to tell you.
I'm heading to the gym, you guys have your information, make your decision. BlazingHand is clearly scummy as shit.
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I get it man, I really do. You can't exactly back down being part of two bad lynches in a row when your reasoning was shitty. But, don't worry. I am sure if we replayed this game you would do it all over again, since you know, it works toward your win condition.
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On January 14 2012 07:43 Blazinghand wrote: AT LEAST POINT OUT YOUR THOUGHTS ON ANYONE BUT ME BEFORE YOU BAIL AGAIN You have an impeccable ability to piss away all my time. When I get back I will take care of it.
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Unlike you, I am not going to abandon someone I am sure of for some other random easy lynch. The best course is never the easiest, this is no exception.
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On January 14 2012 22:40 layabout wrote: Nothing about HoD defence suggests to me that he is town. But banishing him allows us to determine whether he is the AoD. (it is improbable that he would be banished, the AoD would be somebody else, and they would then miss).
The important thing for now is where is RoL?
Since there appear to be no other candidates are we left to vote RoL by default? Should we really be voting to kill RoL? Yes, obviously do it. With the lack of discussion and my current voters how could this possibly be a bad idea?
On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 3 Lynch.
With 13 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch.
Current votes:
RebirthOfLeGenD (4): Grackaroni, Zephirdd, Blazinghand, -Zephirdd, -Grackaroni, Spaackle, Refallen, Grackaroni
HarbingerOfDoom (2): Tyrran, syllogism, layabout, Grackaroni, Zephirdd, -Zephirdd, -Tyrran, -Grackaroni
Spaackle (1): Zephirdd, -Zephirdd, Zephirdd
Bluelightz (1): Jackal58
Blazinghand (1): RebirthOfLeGenD
The Day 3 deadline is at January 15 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 10:23:15 from now.) I mean come on, you guys only have three of my four current voters as scum suspects, Grack, Spackle, and pop... Err I mean BH.
But yeah, clearly you are on the right track. I mean HoD role claimed, as long as there is no CC then he's obviously town, right? Remember that time I said any role claims after a flip CANNOT be trusted? This is that time, if you want to believe blindly and you believe his breadcrumb was true, fine, use his townie nature to prove your thoughts, but trusting a claim after a no flip is just asinine.
Yes, my only case so far was on BH, because he's scum. The guy spent entire day two tunneling me and harping about my "bad" plan and then used that to justify a lynch on me. The entire time he misrepresents everything I was saying, its completely absurd.
Sorry I don't have all the time in the world to sit around here and post, but I have a job among other things that occupies me. As I said, when I get home tonight I will put out my thoughts on other players and if you think that's scummy, then sorry. I simply can't play this game for 10+ hours a day.
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On January 14 2012 22:03 Grackaroni wrote: Can't talk much, going to class.
RoL has ONLY focused on BH, plus he has been too busy to scumhunt for the first 2 days but wasn't too busy to come up with a plan that was anti-town. ##Vote: RebirthOfLegend It's funny, for someone who I have seen echo this thought at least 3 times I have yet to see you actually lay into my plan.
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I did an analysis on BH, and posted a retarded amount should you ever feel the need to actually look at me and need to analyze me.
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I am heading to work though, but there is one last fun fact I am going to point out that you should all consider. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=133498¤tpage=18 This is BH's filter. Read the last 5 pages of it or so. Only the last 3 apply to today. He focuses solely on me and doesn't talk about the HoD lynch at all. He focuses on his case against me.
All of a sudden your #1 scum suspect in HoD does a claim and everyone just backs off of him.
It's quite a coincidence that while I am sure BH is scum and pretty damn sure he's an Angel, he refused to attack or even comment on this other guy who then works up a claim that most likely won't be countered since if they are both Angels, they will both know what Wiggles flipped to begin with.
Sigh x.x
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My plan is good too, but you guys didn't want to use it, which is your prerogative. My only analytical contribution has been BH so far. I will try to post a bit from work, I think I have my laptop in my car or I can use my cell phone, but nothing long winded is going to come out in a 30 minute break.
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