On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: [spoiler] Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. I responded to this in full in a previous post when I got home, but I suppose I can try to clarify this again. The Angels aren't immune to blues. No scum team is immune to confirmed townies. But to further elaborate, 3 roles threaten scum just as 3 threaten the Demons. The Demon Hunter makes a hit, if his hit fails he knows one of two things happened. His target was in Purgatory which is publicly announced, or his target was an Angel. This means when targeting it acts as a kill/check depending if they are an Angel/Demon. How you can't see Purgatory affecting Angel powers is beyond me, but I suppose as part of my plan it's used defensively to conserve the voting block. So we can pretend that doesn't count, although its more the threat of purgatory in the blue circle that should scare away the Angels KP I will concede slightly on that point. Lastly the only one you cared to note, the Seer or whoever checks Angels. I don't need to explain this at all. He then assumes a bad unlikely scenario, that a mass RC is forced from our blues for a counterclaim. Our demon hunter stays alive because he's in purgatory, fine we get an extra vote that's safe. The demons are still facing the role checking threat from the other blue in this worst case scenario. Constantly RBing the Demon Hunter could also be bad though because if none of them are suspect chances are hes going to kill townies. But either way, this is talking the worst case scenario which involves the demons counter claiming and losing a member anyway. Assuming they do it to RB the demon Hunter and force a claim they are still sacrificing the Twister or Concealer which are both really strong roles. I obviously couldn't know this at the time and it's not a valid defense, but the Demons now no longer have the Transporter so this can't even work and they can't counterclaim in their current position. If we no lynch or the Demons don't conceal the lynch then my plan has just become that much more viable, but I digress. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. He never elaborated here on how their defense powers protect the Demons, but it really doesn't. He ignores voting block, zero chance of hitting blues after the claim is complete, or a lower player pool to choose scum from. So in short, his complaints were minor at best.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. As explained, our blues roles are relatively weak. Confirmed townies are a way stronger asset. Once again, now that a Purgatory threat has left the game its doubled edged, one less purgatory for the Angels to avoid, but also increases potential blue efficiency.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. When I am saying why the plan is bad for Angels its becuase that is what I am being questioned on. Personally when I thought about the plan and was considering implications I thought it screwed both factions, but screwed the Demons a fair bit more because it focuses Angel KP toward them more, while their only real choice is hope their corruption can give them an edge, but every town member they corrupt essentially becomes confirmed.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. They would have to KNOW someone was going to die, and somehow be willing to sacrifice them. This is stupid, scum teams especially in small numbers will try to play conservative, especially on TL, and more so when they ALL have power roles.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. True, we can do a slow reveal though, for example force the seer/channeler to claim and see which CC happens first. On top of this, this scenario is ignoring just how detrimental is is for either scum faction to fake claim which hurts them even if it hurts our blues a little bit. I believe if they choose to use a CC strategy it works to our benefit in the long run.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. I explained how this is a fallacy already, and how there is equal threat from power roles to both Demons and Angels, the Angel threat is slightly more indirect.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. Corrupting town (Demons only chance at victory) also tightens the noose around their neck by confirming each corrupted townie. Hypothetically on D5 we could have corrupted players claim which would narrow the pool further. There only chance to kind of work it is to not corrupt one day and use it to try to confirm themselves, which is, once again, a double edged sword.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. It enhances analysis, while giving a tactical advantage of controlling the flower of the game. I don't see why you are against two pronged rape, but whatever.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. I would say that there is an extremely low chance of Palmar getting D2'd. Palmar is good and townies hate lynching other beneficial townies, especially if its only a *MIGHT* on them being scum. Palmar as a good player in a two faction game would serve as a scum hunting threat against the other faction. He would also get support from his scum team against his lynch should he need it, as well as townies who don't want to kill a perceived "good" player.
In short, you are wrong and a CC strategy is bad to begin with.
Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._.
Lastly, as the tide turns against him: Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote: We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote: RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD You are insane. I was getting dressed and went out after F5ing the thread. Sorry I wasn't immediately walking out the door, but I knew I wasn't contributing anything substantive. Stop reaching, its transparent as shit.
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Alright so expect a few analysis posts. We are going to get this BlazingHand problem out of the way first.
First we will deal with BlazingHand. Let's go over what he has done scummy. I aim to prove that BlazingHand is an Angel The first thing is his Day 1 activity. Then we will move towards his criticisms of my plan and his actions after that.
Part I: Day 1
Day 1 for BlazingHand can be characterized by a couple of issues that I think are worth noting, but barring his Day 2 activity wouldn't necessarily consider top candidate. Firstly, he focuses heavily on the set up. Then we look at his interaction with the Palmar. The third thing I am not too sure how to feel about is his overbearing activity. He is absolutely dominating the towns posts, his filter quite frankly is such a ridiculous amount to read it would scare off most people. I know I usually wouldn't bother reading WBG's filter in games because its usually like 8-10 pages within the first couple of days. By the end of day two his filter was 14 pages long, and accomplished an absolutely retarded amount of nothing except making this game insanely annoying to read.
So that being said let's get to his set up analysis. Now generally speaking, it is considered a bit scummy to dwell on a set up and post a about it. In this case due to the extremely unusual nature of the game I might be able to forgive that.
For point of reference, I will include the posts in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote: Sup guys? I'm Blazinghand. :DDDDD
A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time.
The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections.
The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on.
Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote.
Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote.
So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though.
Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find?
Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels.
Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues.
Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" Show nested quote + The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier On January 04 2012 17:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 17:40 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 17:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff?Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. The last post specifically, I have bolded an interesting point. He wants us to share plans, then shits all over me when I do it. Fine whatever, the set up posting was minor we can let that slide.
The next part I want to focus on is his other player interactions. Generally he is hostile with most players, while on Day 1 it can be a good way to generate discussion I don't believe that was entirely what he was doing, some of it was straight up bullying which just makes it so townies are less likely to challenge you, and more likely to sheep with you to avoid confrontations. I will include some of the posts in a spoiler once again.
[/spoiler]
On January 04 2012 18:06 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote: I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts. Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy.
On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote:IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote: Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less.
On January 05 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 04:19 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote: If bluelightz doesn't contribute by the end of the day we can re-evaluate. I assume you mean an IRL day or something here right? We're not made out of time. Bluelightz had 3 hours, and he spent them making one-liners and posts that were literally meaningless. I consider this play to be anti-town. I don't care who does it-- you could have done it, and it would be anti-town. Then he bails. Given that he knew he had to bail in a few hours, he could have made a post with, well, content. But he didn't. No, I meant the first in-game day, that is to say up to 72 hours. Get used to certain players not immediately establishing their innocence, because that is going to be the norm. Whether bluelightz is going to be one of them remains to be seen, but there are "veterans" who to some extent do it every game. The fact that it's anti-town does not mean the optimal play is to lynch them every game for it. If you can pressure them to contribute, that's fine. The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:Also is Mr. Wiggles actually playing? I see he edited his only post to say "can't", but he is still on the player list. Is Mr. Wiggles playing?
On January 05 2012 04:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:28 layabout wrote:Bluelightz i think...: he lacks confidence in his own abilities that he may try to lurk that he has not tried to help that what he has written makes sense from a "town that has to get on a plane and will have limited internet acess" perspective he has provided us with very little that can be analysed effectively i do not think that there you can make all of those inferences + Show Spoiler +"profoundly unuseful" and "anti town" and say that they are his verdict and his damnation. BH at this point in time nearly any case you can come up with needs to forced and isn't necessarily helpful You seem to like throwing your vote around but do you really think that at the current moment in time everyone should vote for bluelightz to kill him, possibly end the day and let night actions happen? if i were the type i might accuse you of "trying to gain town cred by forcing a case based off of thin air." i will not do that. If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote: What i think we should do today: I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. Solid case indeed chap, you base it off useless posts. Definitely no signs of weakness.
On January 05 2012 04:36 Blazinghand wrote: Look if Bluelightz gets off his plane, realizes he's being a tool, and decides to seriously help out, I won't have as much of a case on him any more because he'll be being, well, helpful.
It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town.
step 1) be helpful step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you And this guy gets up my ass about being a dick to players.
On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:26 Grackaroni wrote: KK I'm back. I suggested the Bluelightz lynch and it looks like BH took a lot of shit because of me. No I took a lot of shit because of me. You didn't contribute to my Bluelightz idea at all, except to remind me he existed and is bad. If you like the bluelightz lynch, make a case and make your vote like a man. If you don't like it, don't do it. You make expand and defense it and you do so with vigor. Being like "hey guys should we pressure Bluelightz" and then apologizing for it doesn't help my case against him, and it doesn't help him either. Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. Oh cool, because you said not to be abrasive, then its all fine. [/spoiler] This is just to establish the needless aggression and discouraging players. I want to establish a difference. When he is doing it here, it is to discourage people from coming against him. When I was posting abrasively in defense of my plan it served the purpose of attempting to shut down contention fast and efficiently because it was a rush scenario. The difference is his is to shut down objections to himself by less aggressive players, while mine was a tactical decision to help my plan get going on an extremely constricted time basis.
Now for how he acted about Palmar. He starts off subtle trying to justify the case, then gets full swing behind it before jumping to an easier lynch in Erandorr/Risk.nuke. I will explain what I mean in the spoiler.
On January 06 2012 09:53 Blazinghand wrote: So, our chief reasoning for Palmar being scum is his relative inactivity? Palmar is an aggressive scumhunter D1 whenever he is town, and today he has been largely unaggressive and not scumhunting on par with his usual-- as though he's holding something back. Is this an accurate characterization of the Palmar case? This is him trying to ease into a lynch and play conservatively. He doesn't want to directly attack such a skilled player who could easily out argue him in a confrontation.
This is the post that looks the most scummy though in his Palmar interactions
On January 07 2012 07:58 Blazinghand wrote:My serious issues with Erandorr STILL STAND. He is hustling us. He is doing it right now. I am geniunely concerned about him. I would be heartily surprised if he were town. Why haven't you posted anything of substance, Erandorr? Yes, you've been away, but you've also been NOT AWAY, and frankly, we're down to the last sleep cycle before the day end during which everyone will get a chance to leave comments. Your actions over the course of the last couple days have done little to convince me of your usefulness. However, I feel that it has come time to weigh in on Palmar v. Wiggles. I'm going to present a concise case summarizing what I would characterize as the feel of these player's play so far this game. I will say who I think is scum. I will present my strongest read. And then I am going to vote.
I will begin by opening Palmar's filter. Wiggles has done a reasonable comprehensive job of going after Palmar, but tunnels are dark and cause, well, tunnel vision. I will add in a tunnel here until instead of tunnels we have a big dome area where it's easy for everyone to see what's going on. It's not the best analogy, but you get it. Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST. Palmar before Wiggles comes at him bro+ Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 20:33 Palmar wrote: I'm a kite! Meaningless. Nothing much is happening yet, though. About 18 hours and 6 pages later, Harbringer presents a "Palmar is Lurking" case: On January 05 2012 15:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: So how would people feel about lynching Palmar or Erandorr if they don't start posting more? Both have posted nothing of worth so far, Palmar was even active elsewhere on the mafia forum today, and both are known for doing very little as scum. Palmar responds with more trolling: On January 05 2012 18:36 Palmar wrote: I claimed kite, that's pretty pro-town? 30 minutes later, he makes his first post that isn't an obvious troll: On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: As a public service I'm going to list up some stupid stuff going on in the thread:
Anyone talking about demon or angel strategy either is one, or is dumb. It's completely irrelevant to the goal at hand.
The discussion about whether we should be lynching demons or angels is even dumber. We're going to lynch scum, I don't care what kind of scum, and thinking we can somehow figure out what type of scum multiple players are is just... derp. Bringing this up almost looks like testing the waters/reducing the threat level of one faction (your own).
The discussion about how and when a seer should claim is also dumb. He doesn't need to claim if he doesn't suck. Any good Cop can just make a case once he has a guilty, or make a case to save an innocent, and push it. Knowing the player is scum makes writing the case so much easier.
@Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
@Cwave: Dirkzor's point is essentially correct, however, the fact that he felt the need to correct people by specifically demonstrating demons are no less threatening than angels, instead of just telling everyone to shut up and talk about something productive is however kinda scummy. The fact he's talking about the night cycle doesn't really say a lot. Talking about this post: Palmar makes a couple obvious observations about scum and claims. His statements are correct and I agree with them. However, the person he's addressing with the "seer claiming is dumb" statement is Harbringer, whose previous post was like 13 hours earlier: + Show Spoiler +On January 05 2012 03:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Some things to think about: If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well.
The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel.
The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that.
On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. And had already been shot down by several people. Palmar here is contributing on the surface, but really was just repeating what had already been said. He asks a couple questions, but it's not real pressure. Overall, this post isn't BAD. In the context of several scumhunting and pressure actions on d1 this would be a normal Palmar post, actually. He WOULD slap down a guy who's already been slapped down. Normally he'd call the guy out by name, but slapping a guy down is exactly what Palmar would do. Shortly thereafter, Syllogism says that Palmar is normally more active d1, and therefore is likely scum out of all the lurkers. Dirkzor says Palmar is stifling discussion. Palmar's retort: On January 05 2012 20:10 Palmar wrote: No, I want to shut people up who are talking about trivial stuff that cannot possibly lead us to finding scum, thus simply cluttering the thread with useless information. Creating noise over true evidence is not helping.
But since you are around, please tell me, who would you lynch, right now? I will provide the same answer to you in turn. At this point, he enters the discussion actively. On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. Hedging on BL. Notes that he can't really pick risk cause risk hasn't posted. Says he wouldn't mind lynching Jack or RoL for being experienced lurkers. No commitments or analysis. On January 05 2012 20:24 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:12 syllogism wrote: Palmar: do you really believe that "cluttering up the thread" is an issue so far in this game? Do you think it is ever? It's not the amount, but the content that I have a problem with. What I don't like is people discussing trivial things which anyone can take any side on, no matter their alignment. An example on this would be a discussion on how blue roles should act in a normal game, since that simply is just people giving their opinion on something that has no relevance to the game at hand. This is a fair statement. In the context of Palmar scumhunting and providing pressure, this statement wouldn't ring any bells. On January 05 2012 20:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:29 syllogism wrote: Uh, from my experience you are always active if not useful early on, but I could be mistaken. I assumed your lack of activity was due to not wanting to post here while pretending to be away in Resistance but apparently that's not it. You posted quite a bit after the game was over but kept ignoring this game. Anyway, I'm probably not pushing to lynch you today given how many useless people there are. Also reading steamship made me a bit more open to the idea that we can both be town due to the fact Zona quite clearly RNGs teams rather than just pretends to like other hosts. Reading steamship should also have been a perfect example of a game where I don't post or simply troll during the opening hours to you. I find it very weird that you somehow missed that, despite remembering the game when you need to use it to point out to me that there is a possibility we're both town. You know I don't metagame like that. If I don't post in a game it's simply because I don't want to post, I don't turn off messaging clients or hide from the forum when I don't want to post in a game. It's my problem I'm playing multiple games, so I should be the one at disadvantage from that. I want to see how you're thinking this game. Can you read Dirkzor's filter and tell me what you think about it? You don't need to conclude an alignment, you simply need to tell me what you think. A meta-defense. Meh. No comittments or analysis, asks for syllo's read. On January 05 2012 21:28 Palmar wrote:I was kinda expecting you to ask me something to continue the conversation. I'll just assume you did. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:12 syllogism wrote: So, hey Palmar, you handsome man.
What do you think about Wiggles' late entry to the game, and the wall of text he posted when he came in? Oh, I'm glad you asked syllogism. Wiggles seems to do this every game, regardless of his alignment, post thoughts on how the game should be played out. However, I don't get the same bad feeling about his posts this time around as I did in mini mafia x, if this is his new scum late entrance, it has much more to it than last time I saw him opening a game as scum. I'm actually leaning town on wiggles this game, his follow-up posts were more useful than what I'd believe scum wiggles would do, compared to what I've come to know him doing as scum. I think he should be one of the last people we lynch today. I agree with removing Dirkzor off the board as a lynch candidate, even if his opening post was kinda weird, his casual pointing out things like "that's an easy way to lurk", seems like a townie, rather than scum. What do you think about Blazinghand? So, there are two ways you can read this: 1) Palmar is town and trying to start conversations. 2) Palmar is scum and picked a topic he'd feel comfortable talking about by uh, literally asking himself a question. This is his first real analysis-- within a few hours of him becoming active. Labeling a couple dudes as town is pretty Palmar-town-ey to do. I've seen him try to scumhunt by confirming townies and process of elimination. I don't know why he's asking about me though; clearly the answer to that question is "Blazinghand is a sexy beast, I stay up late dreaming about him. <3" On January 05 2012 21:49 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote:On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. Yes, but which lurker, and why? So, let's talk about this for a moment. I think Palmar is actually providing some real pressure on Bluelightz here. This is about 20 hours after Grack first fingered Bluelightz and I jumped on him like a dog on an ass-flavored biscuit. He does this as Bluelightz posts his first of many "hey guys I'm gonna use 20 lines to tell you I have no scumreads" posts. This looks normal to me. I'd ask Bluelightz this in the same situation. Here's where we get to the contentious part of the issue: Bluelightz responds: On January 05 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 21:49 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote:On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. Yes, but which lurker, and why? At this point, I would wait if xsk starts posting, risk.nuke too. But if they don't i'm all ears for lynching them I would lynch RoL right now because he hasn't posted anything when I searched for RoL post's in the thread I haven't found any post's by him A typical bad response from either a newbie town or a newbie scum. What would you do in this situation? He's hedging, but nominally answers your questions, but provides a reason that sounds like an excuse. He's very hesitant. I know what I would do. I'd pressure him more. I'd ask him "why not X player, why not Y player" and so on. I'd say "Is that your only reason?" and "you really believe in lynch all lurkers?" and "of the active players, who is the scummiest?" and "why so uncertain?" I'd berate him HARD for such a hedging response. I'd be all over him. I think most people would. Now, maybe Palmar thought this was an acceptable response, right? No, Palmar thought this was a crappy response. So Palmar decided to continue to talk to BL. On January 05 2012 22:24 Palmar wrote: So consider this scenario.
You are now a day-vigilante, if you kill a townie, you will lose the game for town immediately, so you have to shoot scum, everything is on the line. You HAVE to hit scum with the information you have now.
Would you shoot RoL? This question asks: "Are you sure?" And it does it in a roundabout, generally crappy way. This is not a good way to up the ante on an opponent. Not at all. The question isn't "can Palmar provide some sort of justification for this" because I guarantee you 100% he CAN. He's Palmar, he can justify anything. The question is, "would a town player use this as a follow-up to Bluelight's hedging?" I don't think so. I feel like this is a bad way to increase pressure. I feel like it's weird. It doesn't seem like something you'd do if you really wanted to lay on the hurt. On the other hand, I'm not sure why scum Palmar would do this either. This is just... well, dumb. Palmar has some interaction with Syllogism calling him dumb again, and we get this: On January 06 2012 00:55 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:30 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 00:24 Palmar wrote: In addition, Neither risk.nuke nor RoL have posted anything in the game yet. What makes you think RoL is more likely to be scum than risk.nuke? I think RoL is more scum because he didnt post anything before now and risk.nuke "promised"more content but, if he didnt fullfill the promise I would consider that he is scum also. Alright, so at gunpoint, your highest possibility of flipping scum is RoL, based on the fact that he has not posted. That's very... interesting. You have little enough faith in your actual reads that you would risk a game to kill off someone who you have nothing to determine his alignment on. This is pretty indirect and noncommittal for an FoS, which is basically what it is. On January 06 2012 01:12 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 01:07 Bluelightz wrote: Okay Palmar, I'm about to sleep.So, ask me what you want to ask now :3 Well, I'm not sure what I should be asking you, apparently you're happy with fencesitting through the lynch, throwing your vote randomly against some lurker. Your entire scumhunting process is "This guy has not posted, so he must be scum". And I have a problem with that. Don't let me keep you up, there's still another day. You better come up with something better tomorrow, even if it's only a measurement of your neck. There's the Palmar we know :3 OK SO Right here I'm gonna stop and go through Wiggles' filter up to this point, because right after this he accuses Palmar. I'm doing this because we should know what Wiggles was up to before he comes out swinging. Wiggles before he comes at Palmar+ Show Spoiler +So wiggles is silent at first, then he comes out swinging with a big post. I'm gonna break it down for y'all right here. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Hey guys, I was sick last night, so I didn't bother posting. I took some Dristan and went to bed and feel better now, though, so let's get started. First thing's first, I want to address a couple of posts that I saw as non-optimal play, and something we should be aware of.
Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 23:40 Zephirdd wrote: hi, checking in.
It's stupid to discuss angel/demon lynching, although it is better to have the AoD lynched first we can't just magically detect them. Scum is scum regardless of A/D alignment.
Sage and Seer should not claim unless they have 2/3 scum nailed down that can be instantly lynched; Just make sure to hide breadcrumbs so we believe your claim should that occur.
...day1 is always boring. Just so you know, you should never believe an investigative claim because someone bread-crumbed it. There's no reason to believe it because of bread-crumbs, because there's no proof that they actually did what they bread-crumbed. Breadcrumbs are only useful when a player flips, because you know what role they actually are, and then you know that any breadcrumbs are likely to be sound. If you want a recent example of breadcrumbs killing the town, go read Mini Mafia X, where Wherebugsgo wrote jk three times in a post then claimed jailkeeper, and town believed him. The only person I think can legitimately breadcrumb and use that to support their claim in this game is the demonhunter, and only if they end up killing a complete innocent, or else it could be the acolyte. Also keep in mind that crumbs should be made before the corresponding day-post. Basic Breadcrumb info. Not a perfectly accurate representation of WBG's claim, which was substantially more nuanced than that, and was actually somewhat transparent given what he claimed his night actions were, but yeah breadcrumbs don't support claims they cover flips. This is a true statement and is something that needed to be cleared up. Contrast Palmar's post which says the same thing, but 12 hours later. This basic info is a null read as opposed to a "wtf" read because it needed to be said. After it's been said, it's been said. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote:] Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 03:02 Blazinghand wrote: Don't go lynching anyone but Bluelightz if you think he's a legit valid scum. It doesn't matter whether he's an angel or a demon or what. In fact, given that he was staggeringly bad in Student mafia (though he WAS a replacement) it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless.
I think we should lynch whoever is the scummiest. If Bluelightz feels scummy to you, put together a case on him and cast your vote like a man. If you think he's probably scummy, and that he'll contribute poorly (as he did in Student mafia), put your money where your mouth is. I can respect that.
This is bad. Killing a useless townie is almost never worth it. A useless townie is still a townie, and they still provide us with a vote and count towards our win condition. It's always better to lynch scum, not lynch someone because he could be scum but it doesn't matter anyways because if he's town he's useless. In fact, I was leaning town on you at the beginning of the game, but now I think I'm going to have to re-evaluate that somewhat after your recent "case" on Bluelightz. Being bad doesn't make someone scum, so it seems weird that you'd try to attack him for being bad. There's been a lot of talk in the thread so far (though granted, most of it is based on mechanics), so who do you think is scummy? You don't make a case for why bluelightz is scum, just for why he hasn't done anything productive yet. Here Wiggles goes after me. I think his case is shitty, not because any fact he says is untrue, but because his conclusions don't match his assumptions. Or he just didn't read my posts. I call him out for this later, and will address this in more detail when we reach it in his filter. The rest of what Wiggles say is obvious and semi-obvious but correct strategy info that hasn't been covered yet. No read. So overall I don't think this post says anything about Wiggles other than that he's writing stuff. So, moving on from his first post: On January 05 2012 07:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What I was talking about there, was this portion of the quoted post: "it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless."
Living useless townies are better than dead useless townies, especially when we mislynch them. When I read that, I thought you were implying that you would be fine lynching him, even if he flipped town, because he's useless. That also implies you aren't sure of your read, or that you're scummy, because it's covering for the potentiality that he flips town and tries to defend against it preemptively.
Feel free to keep the pressure on him, though, and force him to contribute. I'm not saying unvote him, I just wanted to make a point that lynching greens because they're useless isn't generally beneficial for town. The same thing ties in with voting for inactives because they're inactive, especially if you read them as green, which is part of the discussion on Lynch all Lurkers. Wiggles and I are arguing about my case vs BL. Here he makes some dumb arguments based on not understanding me. No read. On January 05 2012 07:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 07:31 Blazinghand wrote: There's also a way for greens to be anti-town, you know-- "non-contributing" can actually be worse then "useless" because it provides cover for reds to hide. Look, if I think a guy is anti-town I'm gonna try to lynch him. If he flips green, then so be it. If I could lynch a red guy instead I would gladly do that, but I really don't know until i see the color of his blood, do I?
Bluelightz deserves the case I have against him and deserves my vote. And if he fails to contribute and there are no other scum reads, and all he's doing is stopping by every now and then to say "brb" and generally confuse our blues, then he also deserves to die. Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. More Mr. Wiggles being dumb. I think he just misreads all my posts. He makes a commitment here though, which is something that Palmar didn't. So that's all the posts Mr. Wiggles made before his accusation against Palmar. That's where the gamestate was when Wiggles decided it was time to come at Palmar. We have a few questions to formulate based on this: Does Palmar seem scummy to you? How about Wiggles? The other question to formulate: Is Wiggles' case legitimate? Let's take a look! Mr. Wiggles' Opening Statement+ Show Spoiler +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hi guys.
First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured.
First off, this is a bunch of BS. Bluelightz is playing like dick and at that moment had contributed nothing of value. That's not super relevant to the actual accusation though. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Alright, Wiggles. Let's see what you got. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:For example, take this post: Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching " people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical.
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum.
So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch.
##Vote: Palmar So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town. This is a fairly well-thought-out case, and somewhat coincides with my own observations. However, before I pass judgement, I'm gonna take a look and Palmar's initial response to this case. Palmar's Defense+ Show Spoiler +Palmar's defense comes in two parts: Meta and his interaction with Bluelightz. On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote:So, Wiggles is wrong, but he's also wrong in a way that makes him scum. He's being intentionally and maliciously thick. Remember, despite the picture Wiggles wants to paint, I've posted a ton in the thread already. Wiggles is not a bad player, so he knows that none of the things he posted have anything to do with my alignment. What we need to look at is how and why he is wrong. This is loooong. But please read it very carefully, some of the most important bits are after the break. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Hi guys. First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Look at this. For someone who has played with me extensively in the past, he should know by now that I hate the "create plans" and "discuss if we want to lynch lurkers" phase of the game, so most of the time I ignore it and really start posting once I think there's something to discuss. In addition, aside from XLIV where I tunneled as part of a strategy (I tunneled just to see how town would respond), Please show me an example of a game where I tunneled on day one. I dare you to go and find a proper tunnel from me on day one that isn't XLIV. I have a feeling you're not going to be able to. I usually just read the thread, talk to people, and then at some point I make a decision. Usually with less than 24 hours to go. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:For example, take this post: On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 20:07 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why?
Because people were picking on him for hurrrr not being helpful as scum in Student mafia and then for not posting anything useful within the first three hours of the game, just like everyone else. If he doesn't start posting something useful he might be a decent lynch possibility, but not because he didn't do anything within the first 3 hours. However I still don't see how this is your town play so how about we still lynch you instead. Do you have an excuse for not doing anything yesterday? I've one excuse in mind but I would like to hear it from you. Other than that, for instance lynching risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=76576 appears to make much more sense given that we know how he plays town and this clearly isn't it so far. Grackaroni is another given that his only contribution so far has been to randomly tunnel bluelightz for the aforementioned awful reasons. The list of worthless people so far: RoL, risk.nuke, cwave, xsksc, Palmar, Jackal, Erandorr, bluelightz Out of those Palmar is the one least likely to be this inactive as town. You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching " people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. Once again, before you think about what Wiggles is doing here, remember that this guy actually knows exactly how I play, yet he's trying to make it look like something else. Of course the post has no solid reads, it's a conversation with syllogism. Something I've found incredibly useful to determine the alignment of people I know very well (mostly sandro and syllo). In addition, English may not be my first language, but did anyone actually read the last sentence the way wiggles did? Cause it sure as hell meant I'm willing to lynch those two, not just people like them. Like, did anyone seriously read this sentence, and get out of it that I'm not fine with lynching Jackal and RoL? Maybe I'm completely off here, but this to me is stretching the point seriously. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes people make an argument for not lynching lurking veterans on day one, and I was saying that I'd have no problem lynching them, ie: lynching Jackal or RoL. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Yes, I want to see where syllo stands. Quibbling and argument. The big thing to note here is that neither of these players have provided links to games that Palmar is in. I don't like Meta, and I don't know these guys well, so I can't really comment on this. I'll have to go read the other games to determine if this fits in Palmar's meta, and I don't even know if Palmar has a consistent meta so i'll have to read even MORE games if I want to find that out. If someone could hook me up with some links to Palmar's filters in other games that would be, well, nice. If not I guess I'll have to go look myself ;_; The second part is the interesting part: On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote:The complete misrepresentation (thanks Ver) of what happened between me and Bluelightz is the most telling thing from Wiggles in the game. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical.
So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. This is what it comes down to. First off, Wiggles accuses me of changing my mind. That's dumb in the first place, because well... that's how you play this game. (notice, with this post I'm changing my mind on Wiggles). The best part is that Wiggles is actually not reading the thread, which is why his case is so heavily founded on attempting to create some meta on how I'm supposed to play on day 1, and trying to prove I'm not fitting it. I'll show you an example of Wiggles not reading the thread: Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Wiggles is speculating about why I decided to attack Bluelightz Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:00 Palmar wrote: After Bluelight's latest list of only town/null reads and his wishy-washy-ness with accusing people I might actually just off him. I was kinda leaning maybe noob-town on him, but I don't like his last few posts.
But there is no need to speculate, I said exactly what the deal was. I asked Bluelightz a simple question (who would you lynch?) and he failed to produce an answer other than "a lurker". After which I pressured him to answer using increasingly harsh methods. Here's more: Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). This is awesome, when you want to create a huge-ass case as scum, at least have the decency to read the posts of the person you're accusing, that way someone might buy it. (clickable) On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? I want to establish this, I did ask Bluelightz who he wanted to lynch, then I asked him again, to get him to clarify a target, after he failed again I created a scenario to force him to actually give me an answer. Remember, the scenario, is essentially just "who do you think has the highest chance of flipping scum right now?", which should be exactly the same question as "who would you lynch?". This is important because for some reason Wiggles is attempting to make it look like a bad thing people are saying who they would lynch? I have no idea how that makes sense. And what has the fact that other people answered the question got to do with me? I mean, let's ignore for a moment the fact that people telling us who they think are scum is usually a good idea for town, and just focus on the fact that apparently I am scummy for something other people did. That's just plain wrong. You can never deduce anything about anyone's alignment from other people's actions. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: Clicky!And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. No you are, because you cannot possibly be this bad. ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles Palmar points out some SERIOUS flaws in Wiggles' case. However, he still has some serious issues going on-- even though Palmar didn't pull the dayvig situation straight out of his ass, he still used it instead of better pressure moves. His issue here wasn't really lack of pressure, it was lack of REAL pressure, or helpful pressure. ._. So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand?I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case. I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar. All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies. Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post. I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure. The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr. I really don't. And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines. It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on. So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles! *shakes head* ##Vote Palmar He basically does an entire analysis using wiggles posts which makes him hold zero accountability. On top of this he uses it to justify a vote he has been easing himself into.
If you read the filter there is some more posts about palmar, but I feel this adequately sums it up. He hesitates to engage Palmar, then does it vicariously through wiggles arguments. When Palmar flips he could look good for this if it wasn't a two faction game. This is the reasoning I use to determine he must be an Angel. The part that makes him scummy is his absolutely shameless tunneling of me for 5 straight days, then compromising on a different mislynch.
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