|
While I still agree RoL is far from being the towniest of players, I'm having trouble seeing how he suggests that plan as scum. The only reason for scum to suggest a knowingly anti-town plan is if they also think they will be able to get town to follow through with it. Given the overwhelming negative response to the plan, I think it was quite clear to most people that a town would never follow through with that plan. Also, this is the guy that suggested we lynch 7 people in one day in steamship when there was an explicit warning about dangers in store for a town that lynches too many people in one day (for those not aware, we could vote for and lynch as many as we wanted to in one day in that game), so I am not sold on him being too bright to suggest this plan as town.
I'm not sure if anyone else picked up on it, but despite all of the legitimate concerns voiced against the plan during the night, Tyrran had this to say earlier today:
With no ???? flip, RoL plan could still be put into motion. What do you think about it?
I would obviously prefer to lynch Tyrran over Risk today, but I don't like how Risk has fallen off the face of the earth now that there has been less suspicion on him/pushing for his lynch. He hasn't gotten himself into any real shouting matches yet either, which is unlike him. Also the fact that Syllo is still suspicious of him is of interest of me, because Syllo is often right, and the later into the game it goes, the more likely it is that he is correct.
@Syllo Is there anything in particular that makes you think Risk is a better lynch than Tyrran?
|
Somewhat ninja'ed by Syllo regarding my point on RoL's plan. -_- You people post too fast.
|
On January 10 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 15:37 syllogism wrote: It depends on how the person who suggests the plan thinks it is going to be received. I doubt RoL thought a mass claim on day 1 plan was going to be well received. Scum do not want to suggest a plan that instantly makes them the center of unwanted attention. Further, I don't think it's quite that obvious that the plan is bad and I think he thought quite a bit about it, which suggests to me that he really does think it's a good idea. Regardless, as I can't reliably determine if he really believes the plan is good or not, I'm treating it as null. His activity and lack of scum hunting is not null, but again I'm not lynching him over risk/tyrran. "his play was so scummy he couldn't possibly be scum" and Syllo if I have to push this through without you I will It is not so scummy he couldn't be scum...it is the disregard for the personal consequences, which is often a townie trait. When you aren't guilty, you don't usually think too much about whether or not what you do will draw suspicion.
|
@Grackaroni At the start of this game it looked like you were going to be useful and do things and say stuff. Then the day one lynch happened and you apparently decided that you had done quite enough of that 'being involved in the game' nonsense. Since then the only real post you've made is still not particularly useful or insightful: + Show Spoiler +On January 10 2012 13:07 Grackaroni wrote: I agree with you BH, RoL looks really scummy. It's not the fact that he has been fairly inactive and "hustling" like erandorr but that he's been actively using his time to push a plan that is bad for town and defending his plan rather than scumhunting. Since he is already coming kind of close to the lynch (would be 5/9) I'm going to refrain from voting until he comes in to defend himself. Why the loss of interest? Are you planning on going back to being active/useful anytime soon? Do you have any other reads you might like to share?
|
@RoL See this post for the current time remaining in the day: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603#6
Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither.
My top target remains Tyrran. His passivity and seeming lack of confidence in his reads and overall disinterest in the lynches just seems unlike most townies, and unlike how he played in my prior game with him. While I didn't want to make the following point yet to see if he would keep doing it, Dirkzor already brought it up and stated it quite well, so no reason not to restate it now:
On January 11 2012 03:38 Dirkzor wrote:In the end I'll just quote how Tyrran have taken no stance on anybody he have written a case on. Note: These quotes are cut, but they are all the last part of Posts by Tyrran. Show nested quote +So reffallen, can you please explain why you thought it is not optimal for angels to kill demons ? I dont see much drawback for them doing this. Also it's your turn to step and and post. Who do you think is most scum rigth now ? Show nested quote +You seems to hold a grudge against him because he called you fishy early day 1. Why do you focus so much on him, and not on Blazinghand who actually voted against you ?
On the other hand, i would also like to see you post more Cwave. You seems to have an excel file where you write your read on us. Tell me, who do you think we should lynch today, why ? Show nested quote +Cwave, you are someone who seems towns, but in reality you did not help much at all until now. While you migth be a timid town, I also think it is likely you are scum player. Please answer this : Is there anyone you really think is scum ? Someone you would be fine pushing for lynch ? Who ? Why ? You seem to spend a lot of time analysing people. Please prove us that you are town by trying to get scummy people lynched. While I think that alone is scummy for any player to do, here's some examples of how Tyrran himself presented cases in his prior game: + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 20:07 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:23 prplhz wrote: Yea I like Kenpachi as a lynch too
##Vote Kenpachi So you were a fervent defender of only lynching 'scummy' lurkers. And now you suddenly decide to vote for kenpachi without giving any reason Could you please detail a bit more on why you like kenpachi as a vote, other than the fact that he did not post much ? His townie claim basically does not mean anything Keeping an eyes on lurkers is good, but i would wait to the end on day 1(the last 24 hours) before voting for one of them. It seems to me that blanket voting this early on day one can only lead us divide our attention. Voting for someone whenever he says something strange without trying to pressure him more/confirm him as scum is a great way to lynch a lot of townies and seems to be a good strategy for the mafia side, but not that great for town ( obviously). Bumatlarge espescially has been trying to push the town into lynching as many people as possible. Almost each one of his post include a quote on how we should lynch every single player. Spoiler below shows some example from this filter : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=31777+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2011 10:36 bumatlarge wrote:Why would you FoS when you can just vote them. Don't be pansies. Realized I didn't properly vote. I doubt I will ever take my vote off of kenpachi, it's not that I don't like him, but he is not an asset to the town at the moment, or the forseeable future. Nisani has proceeded to call me dumb or scum, but that doesn't change the fact that his fluffy posts stick out, so it will stay there until he remedies it. ##Vote: Kenpachi ##Vote: Nisani201And this Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:13 Drazerk wrote:##Vote: Sabin010
Bad vibes also this - On November 16 2011 00:22 Sabin010 wrote: I have seen to many games where we lose our cop or doc first day and end up wasting our time as the mob picks us off. On November 16 2011 01:06 Sabin010 wrote: This is my first game and im not sure of all the terms. I thought scum, mob, and mafia are the same. Is why LAL is bad. What possible reason would cause mafia to post this instead of town. By all means keep up the detective work and checking out all the inconsistencies, but use a little sense. This definetely contradicts itself, and it could very well be an intentional lie, but even that doesn't make him scum. The bad strategy reason tht DCL brought up is actually something to go on. You are pushing your luck by trying to find lies a day into the game. Use that energy to filter a suspicious person instead and get a general vibe, and see if their future posts push you one way or the other. If there wasn't a majority lynch in play, I'd put my vote on everyone, and start taking off people who don't register as scum. That's about how many people I think should be lynched each day. On November 16 2011 02:32 bumatlarge wrote:Next person that mentions LAL is getting a vote placed on them. Seriously enough with the useless shit. We will be lynching however many scummy people we can find on the particular day. We are restricting ourselves when we don't have a clue as to what our boundaries are.Nisani has posted complete fluff and none of it shows any effort in actually heling town. I don't think the new people are brain-dead, so unless the specifically ask about something, don't use them as an excuse to post asinine shit. Oh, hi kibbibit ##Vote Nisani201 On November 16 2011 12:37 bumatlarge wrote: We got 48 hours from now, right? This time tomorrow we need to look at the votes and see where people stand. I'm honestly surprised how few votes there are, you get as many as you want, a decent townie can take advantage of this. There is no comparing how scummy certain players are to others, you just lynch them or you don't. I guess it's still early, and I'm still fishing for reads here. Oh and surprise, the only post not advocating to lynch the entire town is to defend chaoser, the ONLY person that agreed with the 'vote for everyone' strategy, after he got pressured by WBG. And by defending him, he explains than chaoser should stop doing just what he was advocating the town to do i.e: vote for everyone that seems scummy. Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 12:50 bumatlarge wrote: Welcome to WBG logic. But that doesn't make what he says untrue, I think chaoser should focus his attention more and prove singleton cases rather then babble on about everything. Doubt he's scum though. So you spend all your post explaining we should vote for anyone who seems scummy, and you defend chaoser that was doing exactly that by saying "he should focus his attention more". How is that not a huge contradiction ? FoS bumatlarge. On November 17 2011 06:55 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:47 risk.nuke wrote:On November 17 2011 06:34 GreYMisT wrote:On November 17 2011 06:32 risk.nuke wrote: Okey, but isn't this exacly one of those situations where we connected two people and should not lynch both of them incase they are town.
##Vote Kenpachi perhaps, but why choose to lynch kenpachi over the guy who anti-voted him? If kenpachi is green, then lanaia probably isn't scum. If kenpachi is red we got a scumkill even if that doesn't necessarily mean lanaia is his buddy. If lanai is green that means nothing for kenpachis alignment. If lanai is red then kenpachi is scum. I think we learn more from knowing kenpachis alignment. Actually, i think that's a good point. However, if kenpachi flips red, i still think we should auto lynch lanaia. We cant let someone that anti voted a scum go free. Also, if lanaia is blue, she will most likely be a priority kill for the mafia ( who now knows she isnt green), and migth not live to see day 2 anyway. Also kenpachi, you're only defense is : "LOL TOWN IS BAD". I seriously hope that you can do better than that. ##Vote Kenpachi On November 18 2011 07:20 Tyrran wrote: So within four hours, we must focus on getting another lynch. We already have 2 people a 8 votes, i suggest we focus on them. Both look scummy, both are in my likely scum list, yet Drazerk voted for Sinani206 so its unlikely that both are scum.
First of all, Sinani was a big partisan of dividing our attention . Quite amusingly he used the divide and conquer analogy, where as pointed by WBG, you are suppose to divide you enemy. Meaning we town are the enemy?
He Bandwagoned against Lanaia, which as i explained before, is something that is very pro-mafia. Just look at his post just before, when we already established that Lanaia should not be lynched. Both his votes are given without any explanation other than "its obvious". He is either scum or an extremely bad town. Even Drazerk looks good in comparison. I dont think town needs him.
##Vote Sinani206
On November 22 2011 07:19 Tyrran wrote: Also, while I'm at it :
##Vote: Coagulation ##Vote: Sabin010 ##Vote: xsksc
You lurkers unburrow just to lynch an innocent WITHOUT any justification at all, and completely disregarding the post where I understand that prp is a potential blue ( yes i called him vigi which he denied but still) and Palmar huge post in his defence. You are either scum or really crappy town, i dont want you in the game either way.
I also dislike the look of xsksc->spaackle so far. I think the only original contribution either has made was spaackle's argument of Palmar looking town...which is not the best contribution to have. xsksc's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=149333 Spaackle takes over: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=164534
I would appreciate it if others would take a look at bluelightz and tell me what they think. I am having trouble seeing how his posts make sense from a town perspective or a scum perspective, which is baffling to me. He seems to really like doing post by post...but then summarizing instead of analyzing. I don't think I've ever seen such a style before.
@Cwave Please try to make your posts a bit more clear. I understand that english may not be your native language, but reading your filter hurts my head. Also, a good deal of your logic seems questionable, but I am not sure if that makes you scum yet. Some examples: + Show Spoiler +Palmar creates information spam, useless stuff and usefull stuff. I don't see how that observation by me makes me his buddy? I've played games with Palmar outside of the TL context and he is known for his textwalling and informationgathering skills, no matter what side he is on. Information and interaction is good for our town. Unless Palmar plays very differently outside of TL, I don't see how this can be true. Looking into Palmar his filter, he and Wiggles go off on some sort of duet where they distance eachother and vote for eachother. Then they both switch and nothing is said of it and right before Palmar flips, he lists Wiggles as town. Where as before in his filter, nowhere does it come forward that he has really changed his mind or that Wiggles has him convinced that he is town. Seeing as Palmar flipped scum, im thinking MrWiggles might be one of his demonic dancing partners.
-snip-
In conclusion, these two were giving eachother nothing but hate right up until ~7:30 on the 8th of januari. Looks like a planned and organised move to move the votes of eachother after they created some distance of eachother on day1.
This logic is flimsy at best. He said he would claim. He didnt say he would claim VT like the states in his last post i quoted here. Wonder if that's semantics or a slip that he said he would claim VT against his scumbuddies and then thought he claimed it in here aswell. ...seriously? If he said he would claim, and he is a vt, then "I will claim" and "I will claim vt" are equivalent. Also, how could someone say they are going to claim VT later without having claimed... "Guys, I'm going to claim floridian later, but not yet!" His statement here has no logical thought in it whatsoever. You only have to fear the lynch if you are an angel..... (this quote was said in the context of him/layabout pressuring me) What the fuck? Why wouldn't demons or towns fear being lynched? In short, lynching Risk but hammering RoL is second best option. Syllo doesn't seem to agree on this, why i don't know. Unlike RoL(aka the guy who doesn't post) risk.nuke is still producing reactions and information in the progress, so RoL is a good option in my book. Hence i vote for him at this point as lynchtarget. No, i say Risk is my number one case. If we can lynch him today, i will vote. Calls Risk his strongest case, then votes for RoL instead...then seems to imply risk.nuke is producing useful information while RoL is not...then reiterates that Risk is his best case. What? Also, why did you say this:
As you choose to ignore my post and after reading your responses, you are forcing me to vote for your lynch HoD. And then never vote for me?
Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course. ##Vote: Tyrran
|
Alright Syllo, what the fuck is this:
On January 12 2012 00:03 syllogism wrote: Alright, first of all I will never admit that was a poor lynch. Risk did no scum hunting at all following his single case post, which itself was suspicious, on day 1 and his defense made no sense at all. Further, a bunch of people acted suspiciously when asked for the opinion on him and Tyrran/Cwave refused to touch the lynch on two days.
The fact I was wrong likely means that I was not hit on day 1, which significantly increases the likelihood of HoD being the angel of death. I will have to consider something. On January 12 2012 00:37 syllogism wrote:Harbingerofdoom posted this day 1 Show nested quote +Are people seriously trying to implicate me on the basis of "soft-defending" risk by voting Erandorr instead? Now, I can't speak for the people throwing suspicion on me, but I sure as hell don't know risk's alignment, and unless they somehow do, I don't see how it can be implicate me as being scum. Anyone trying to implicate me on this before risk flips is using shitty logic. If risk flips scum and then you want to come after me, then you have some logic on your side. I did not vote for risk nor comment on it much as I had (and still have) a null read on risk. Risk has been in every game I've played on here, and his play-style has varied too much from game to game for me to be comfortable with a day 1 read on him. This sounds as if you knew he was going to flip town. I suppose the problem with that is that he could still have flipped the other scum team. Grackaroni you have basically stopped playing. Another player who clearly does not care about the game at all. First of all, if you had stopped your tunnel vision you would have seen he wasn't such a great lynch, especially in comparison to some of the other players in this game. Being wrong on one of your day 1 lynch targets is also no reason for scum to not try killing you, and you should know that. As for my post, I didn't know what he was going to flip, but I thought it was a lot more likely that he would flip town than most people seemed to be expecting, and it would have given people some reason to go after me. It was not confidence that he would flip town, but merely confidence that if he didn't, I could defend myself. I defended him, and if he flipped scum, I was aware I would look bad. But, I thought the case against him wasn't very good, so I defended him and pushed someone I thought was much more likely to flip scum.
I asked you why you wanted to lynch Risk over Tyrran and the only explanation you gave me was:
On January 10 2012 15:44 syllogism wrote: HoD: I'll have to think about it more, but purely based on informational purposes risk is much better given the activity surrounding him on day 1 I asked that because I honestly didn't see how a good player could look at the cases against both Risk and Tyrran and come out thinking Risk was the better lynch.
|
On January 12 2012 04:22 syllogism wrote: Pretty much everything you said about Tyrran (passivity, lack of confidence in his reads, overall disinterest in the lynches) applied to risk as well. Can you point out what made risk look like a townie (?) to you? gasdjafeaiuhfaisdf
...you think a guy who nearly got lynched wasn't interested in the lynch? Are you being serious right now?
On January 08 2012 08:15 risk.nuke wrote: layabout is probably a townie, Question Palmar and Dirkzor, Erandorr and Jackal are red. Banish syllo/wiggles tonight, see you. On January 08 2012 09:41 risk.nuke wrote: whew, I'm so god damn relived right now On January 09 2012 04:50 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:32 syllogism wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Dirkzor wrote:On January 09 2012 04:06 syllogism wrote:On January 09 2012 04:01 Palmar wrote: yeah, this needs to be done now, or not. I'd rather go with not. This is palmar scum claiming. He has been trolling for a while now but this is as close at is gets If I had written that would you take that as scum claiming? No, but you aren't a player who I talk extensively about the game, in and out of the game. It's extremely unlikely that he would say that as town and I'm pretty sure that when he wrote that he knew very well how it would look like to me; he has by this point realized that there is little he can do to avoid being lynched so might as well have some fun. Imo a town Palmar would respond to that with a pretty huge post declaring why the plan is dumb alternativly if he approved of the plan he would write additional thoughts or/and reason further why it is a good plan. On January 11 2012 00:49 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:19 syllogism wrote:On January 10 2012 23:34 risk.nuke wrote:On January 10 2012 23:33 syllogism wrote: Zephirdd: you don't assume stupid things just because they are possible. Read my filter and tell me if it looks like scum play; it does not. I even suggested that the channeler should use its power to protect likely n1 targets, which would be ridiculously bad if I was the angel of death. Thus you should either conclude that they tried to hit me or HoD is the angel. The former likely implies that there was a reason for angels to want me dead, which implicates risk/tyrran. This means nothing, quite obviously if you were scum you would act like you played pro town. This is perhaps the single most scummiest thing I've seen on TL Mafia. Lynch this scum please lol, bullshit. There were a very very fucking very good chance that if you hadn't said that somebody else would had and you know that. The abillity has 2 functions, roleblock and save. Save is about 1000xtimes better. Period. I laugh at your "I said it first and it's an anti angel move so I can't be an angel" logic. fucking proposterous that you're trying to milk that so far. You're trying to claim that just because you're playing pro-town you can't possibly be scum. Ha. And right now you're tunneling me on a shitty case that only makes sense if you were an angel so thats what I think of you beeing pro-town. Yup, no confidence in any of those, certainly no aggressive tones or anything either. Also, as I stated before, Risk's play varies quite widely from game to game, despite him having been town in every game I have played with him. That is certainly not the norm for most players.
But, the real deciding factor for me was nothing to do with that, it was simply that Risk's play seemed to be explainable from the perspective of a townie on the verge of being lynched and frustrated at having to defend himself. Knowing my own alignment, it was also odd to me that I was his main defender, I figured if he was scum surely a scum buddy would support my defense of him. Obviously that point doesn't get to apply to other people though, as they don't know my alignment. Was I sold on him being town? No, but he also didn't make my top 5 most likely to be scum. Tyrran on the other hand was doing that shit with me being the only real source of pressure on him.
|
On January 12 2012 04:44 syllogism wrote: Besides you didn't "defend" risk or push Tyrran. You made a few posts stating on your opinion on the lynches (it sounded like you were ok with risk lynch). Who are the "other players" in the game you would have lynched over risk, besides Tyrran?
Overall I don't have a problem with your posting. The issue I have is that if you aren't AoD, why did they risk shooting me last night if I was likely going to be leading another mislynch? Err, then what was this post?
On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:@RoL See this post for the current time remaining in the day: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603#6Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither. My top target remains Tyrran. His passivity and seeming lack of confidence in his reads and overall disinterest in the lynches just seems unlike most townies, and unlike how he played in my prior game with him. While I didn't want to make the following point yet to see if he would keep doing it, Dirkzor already brought it up and stated it quite well, so no reason not to restate it now: Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:38 Dirkzor wrote:In the end I'll just quote how Tyrran have taken no stance on anybody he have written a case on. Note: These quotes are cut, but they are all the last part of Posts by Tyrran. So reffallen, can you please explain why you thought it is not optimal for angels to kill demons ? I dont see much drawback for them doing this. Also it's your turn to step and and post. Who do you think is most scum rigth now ? You seems to hold a grudge against him because he called you fishy early day 1. Why do you focus so much on him, and not on Blazinghand who actually voted against you ?
On the other hand, i would also like to see you post more Cwave. You seems to have an excel file where you write your read on us. Tell me, who do you think we should lynch today, why ? Cwave, you are someone who seems towns, but in reality you did not help much at all until now. While you migth be a timid town, I also think it is likely you are scum player. Please answer this : Is there anyone you really think is scum ? Someone you would be fine pushing for lynch ? Who ? Why ? You seem to spend a lot of time analysing people. Please prove us that you are town by trying to get scummy people lynched. While I think that alone is scummy for any player to do, here's some examples of how Tyrran himself presented cases in his prior game: + Show Spoiler + On November 16 2011 20:07 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:23 prplhz wrote: Yea I like Kenpachi as a lynch too
##Vote Kenpachi So you were a fervent defender of only lynching 'scummy' lurkers. And now you suddenly decide to vote for kenpachi without giving any reason Could you please detail a bit more on why you like kenpachi as a vote, other than the fact that he did not post much ? His townie claim basically does not mean anything Keeping an eyes on lurkers is good, but i would wait to the end on day 1(the last 24 hours) before voting for one of them. It seems to me that blanket voting this early on day one can only lead us divide our attention. Voting for someone whenever he says something strange without trying to pressure him more/confirm him as scum is a great way to lynch a lot of townies and seems to be a good strategy for the mafia side, but not that great for town ( obviously). Bumatlarge espescially has been trying to push the town into lynching as many people as possible. Almost each one of his post include a quote on how we should lynch every single player. Spoiler below shows some example from this filter : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=31777+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2011 10:36 bumatlarge wrote:Why would you FoS when you can just vote them. Don't be pansies. Realized I didn't properly vote. I doubt I will ever take my vote off of kenpachi, it's not that I don't like him, but he is not an asset to the town at the moment, or the forseeable future. Nisani has proceeded to call me dumb or scum, but that doesn't change the fact that his fluffy posts stick out, so it will stay there until he remedies it. ##Vote: Kenpachi ##Vote: Nisani201And this Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:13 Drazerk wrote:##Vote: Sabin010
Bad vibes also this - On November 16 2011 00:22 Sabin010 wrote: I have seen to many games where we lose our cop or doc first day and end up wasting our time as the mob picks us off. On November 16 2011 01:06 Sabin010 wrote: This is my first game and im not sure of all the terms. I thought scum, mob, and mafia are the same. Is why LAL is bad. What possible reason would cause mafia to post this instead of town. By all means keep up the detective work and checking out all the inconsistencies, but use a little sense. This definetely contradicts itself, and it could very well be an intentional lie, but even that doesn't make him scum. The bad strategy reason tht DCL brought up is actually something to go on. You are pushing your luck by trying to find lies a day into the game. Use that energy to filter a suspicious person instead and get a general vibe, and see if their future posts push you one way or the other. If there wasn't a majority lynch in play, I'd put my vote on everyone, and start taking off people who don't register as scum. That's about how many people I think should be lynched each day. On November 16 2011 02:32 bumatlarge wrote:Next person that mentions LAL is getting a vote placed on them. Seriously enough with the useless shit. We will be lynching however many scummy people we can find on the particular day. We are restricting ourselves when we don't have a clue as to what our boundaries are.Nisani has posted complete fluff and none of it shows any effort in actually heling town. I don't think the new people are brain-dead, so unless the specifically ask about something, don't use them as an excuse to post asinine shit. Oh, hi kibbibit ##Vote Nisani201 On November 16 2011 12:37 bumatlarge wrote: We got 48 hours from now, right? This time tomorrow we need to look at the votes and see where people stand. I'm honestly surprised how few votes there are, you get as many as you want, a decent townie can take advantage of this. There is no comparing how scummy certain players are to others, you just lynch them or you don't. I guess it's still early, and I'm still fishing for reads here. Oh and surprise, the only post not advocating to lynch the entire town is to defend chaoser, the ONLY person that agreed with the 'vote for everyone' strategy, after he got pressured by WBG. And by defending him, he explains than chaoser should stop doing just what he was advocating the town to do i.e: vote for everyone that seems scummy. Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 12:50 bumatlarge wrote: Welcome to WBG logic. But that doesn't make what he says untrue, I think chaoser should focus his attention more and prove singleton cases rather then babble on about everything. Doubt he's scum though. So you spend all your post explaining we should vote for anyone who seems scummy, and you defend chaoser that was doing exactly that by saying "he should focus his attention more". How is that not a huge contradiction ? FoS bumatlarge. On November 17 2011 06:55 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:47 risk.nuke wrote:On November 17 2011 06:34 GreYMisT wrote:On November 17 2011 06:32 risk.nuke wrote: Okey, but isn't this exacly one of those situations where we connected two people and should not lynch both of them incase they are town.
##Vote Kenpachi perhaps, but why choose to lynch kenpachi over the guy who anti-voted him? If kenpachi is green, then lanaia probably isn't scum. If kenpachi is red we got a scumkill even if that doesn't necessarily mean lanaia is his buddy. If lanai is green that means nothing for kenpachis alignment. If lanai is red then kenpachi is scum. I think we learn more from knowing kenpachis alignment. Actually, i think that's a good point. However, if kenpachi flips red, i still think we should auto lynch lanaia. We cant let someone that anti voted a scum go free. Also, if lanaia is blue, she will most likely be a priority kill for the mafia ( who now knows she isnt green), and migth not live to see day 2 anyway. Also kenpachi, you're only defense is : "LOL TOWN IS BAD". I seriously hope that you can do better than that. ##Vote Kenpachi On November 18 2011 07:20 Tyrran wrote: So within four hours, we must focus on getting another lynch. We already have 2 people a 8 votes, i suggest we focus on them. Both look scummy, both are in my likely scum list, yet Drazerk voted for Sinani206 so its unlikely that both are scum.
First of all, Sinani was a big partisan of dividing our attention . Quite amusingly he used the divide and conquer analogy, where as pointed by WBG, you are suppose to divide you enemy. Meaning we town are the enemy?
He Bandwagoned against Lanaia, which as i explained before, is something that is very pro-mafia. Just look at his post just before, when we already established that Lanaia should not be lynched. Both his votes are given without any explanation other than "its obvious". He is either scum or an extremely bad town. Even Drazerk looks good in comparison. I dont think town needs him.
##Vote Sinani206
On November 22 2011 07:19 Tyrran wrote: Also, while I'm at it :
##Vote: Coagulation ##Vote: Sabin010 ##Vote: xsksc
You lurkers unburrow just to lynch an innocent WITHOUT any justification at all, and completely disregarding the post where I understand that prp is a potential blue ( yes i called him vigi which he denied but still) and Palmar huge post in his defence. You are either scum or really crappy town, i dont want you in the game either way. I also dislike the look of xsksc->spaackle so far. I think the only original contribution either has made was spaackle's argument of Palmar looking town...which is not the best contribution to have. xsksc's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=149333Spaackle takes over: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=164534I would appreciate it if others would take a look at bluelightz and tell me what they think. I am having trouble seeing how his posts make sense from a town perspective or a scum perspective, which is baffling to me. He seems to really like doing post by post...but then summarizing instead of analyzing. I don't think I've ever seen such a style before. @Cwave Please try to make your posts a bit more clear. I understand that english may not be your native language, but reading your filter hurts my head. Also, a good deal of your logic seems questionable, but I am not sure if that makes you scum yet. Some examples: + Show Spoiler +Palmar creates information spam, useless stuff and usefull stuff. I don't see how that observation by me makes me his buddy? I've played games with Palmar outside of the TL context and he is known for his textwalling and informationgathering skills, no matter what side he is on. Information and interaction is good for our town. Unless Palmar plays very differently outside of TL, I don't see how this can be true. Looking into Palmar his filter, he and Wiggles go off on some sort of duet where they distance eachother and vote for eachother. Then they both switch and nothing is said of it and right before Palmar flips, he lists Wiggles as town. Where as before in his filter, nowhere does it come forward that he has really changed his mind or that Wiggles has him convinced that he is town. Seeing as Palmar flipped scum, im thinking MrWiggles might be one of his demonic dancing partners.
-snip-
In conclusion, these two were giving eachother nothing but hate right up until ~7:30 on the 8th of januari. Looks like a planned and organised move to move the votes of eachother after they created some distance of eachother on day1.
This logic is flimsy at best. He said he would claim. He didnt say he would claim VT like the states in his last post i quoted here. Wonder if that's semantics or a slip that he said he would claim VT against his scumbuddies and then thought he claimed it in here aswell. ...seriously? If he said he would claim, and he is a vt, then "I will claim" and "I will claim vt" are equivalent. Also, how could someone say they are going to claim VT later without having claimed... "Guys, I'm going to claim floridian later, but not yet!" His statement here has no logical thought in it whatsoever. You only have to fear the lynch if you are an angel..... (this quote was said in the context of him/layabout pressuring me) What the fuck? Why wouldn't demons or towns fear being lynched? In short, lynching Risk but hammering RoL is second best option. Syllo doesn't seem to agree on this, why i don't know. Unlike RoL(aka the guy who doesn't post) risk.nuke is still producing reactions and information in the progress, so RoL is a good option in my book. Hence i vote for him at this point as lynchtarget. No, i say Risk is my number one case. If we can lynch him today, i will vote. Calls Risk his strongest case, then votes for RoL instead...then seems to imply risk.nuke is producing useful information while RoL is not...then reiterates that Risk is his best case. What? Also, why did you say this: Show nested quote +As you choose to ignore my post and after reading your responses, you are forcing me to vote for your lynch HoD. And then never vote for me? Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course. ##Vote: Tyrran I was ok with it over a no-lynch, but I clearly stated I wanted neither Risk nor RoL lynched. And you know as well as I do that pushing someone else to be lynched is a way to defend someone. Cwave and Spaackle were two others I would have preferred over Risk. Bluelightz I wanted to hear some more on (and still do), but was favoring him over Risk as well, although only slightly.
|
On January 12 2012 04:49 syllogism wrote: None of those posts demonstrate the things you were talking about and aggression against the person who is pushing to lynch you isn't particularly a townie trait. He didn't sound like a vt who was about to be lynched while town was still in a good position. That day one "phew I escaped a lynch" post sounded forced or at best null. He didn't make your top 5 most likely to be scum? You said you would vote for him over RoL at least. Who were your top 5 reads over risk and why didn't you talk about them? How could phew I escaped the lynch sound forced? Every alignment would be relieved to escape the lynch. Hell, when a townie gets lynched instead of you, the only alignment that might not actually be relieved by that result would be another townie. If it sounded forced then it should be townie at best, null at worst. -_-
And the first quote I posted is clearly him calling two people red, and you and wiggles town. I don't see how that doesn't show confidence. Third one his agreement with you that Palmar is scum is also pretty clear. For the fourth one, if you are town and someone is tunneling you and getting you mislynched, that kind of response is quite common and you know it.
|
@Grackaroni, Spaackle, Cwave I would like to hear a couple scum reads from each of you, along with brief explanations.
@Jackal Zbot can count votes from a thread, not sure why Zona chose to use PM's for voting for this game (maybe because of the corrupted town deal?), but so be it. That thing is still fucking cool.
|
On January 12 2012 23:20 Tyrran wrote:Okay, I've been asked to make a case, So i'm going to explain here why HarbingerofDoom, despite his name, is an angel. Yes he has been active, and has been tunneling me. Some people migth think that this may him looks town. However, in a three faction game, and especially in this setup, the main goal of ANY faction, is to get rid of the other faction. Therefore, it is quite important for bot angels and demon to scumhunt and get the other faction lynched. I'm going to add something else about the setup that everyone should have realized: Demons wins by corrupting town and lynching angels, Angels win by killing everyone. This means that each time a VT is lynched, it is a failure for demons as well, not only for town. They lose a potential corrupt target, and more importantly they failed to prevent angels from getting closer of winning. Angels on the other hand do not care. Sure they would have prefered to get a demon or blue, but they still have chances to get them with slay and stalk. So my conclusion here is while it is important to properly scumhunt as Demon, Angels can just tunnel someone and be fine with it. If they get their target lynched : best case they killed a blue/demon, worst case a townie, but they are still one step closer to victory. Im not going to focus on Jackal, but the same holds for him : HoD and Jackal have done nothing but tunnelling this game. HoD on me, Jackal on Palmar then Dirzkor. Not only that, but they had NO INTEREST at all about the player that was getting lyched. Here are some example : Day 1 : main Target are risk/palmar/Erandorr Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 07:47 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Well, it appears as though xsksc is no longer playing this game, as his last post was: January 04 2012 23:24. I don't like lynching lurkers, but from what I know of Erandorr, his lurking makes him likely to be scum, and I do like lynching scum. Barring him showing an actual commitment to playing, I would be fine with lynching him. On risk.nuke, his playstyle seems to vary a good deal between games, so I am not sold on him being scum yet and would certainly like to hear a bit more from him before deciding whether or not I think he is worth a lynch. TyrranTyrran's play seems very different from his play in steamship where he was town. He is being much less aggressive so far, and usually people are more aggressive as town than they are as scum. I think he would make a fine lynch for the day. My only qualm with lynching him is that he hasn't interacted with other players much so far, so his flip will be less revealing, but I like our odds of hitting scum here. My vote will be on him for now. His steamship filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=57176His filter so far this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=57176##Vote: Tyrran Yup, lynch are fine. TUNNEL TYRRAN. Day 2 : Its obvious lycnh are going to be risk or RoL Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 14:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Anyway, I got the chance to spend some time today doing a bunch of rereading, and after doing so I will not be voting for RoL nor Risk today. Maybe I'm being dense, but I really don't see them as being leading candidates for flipping scum. If I end up having to choose between the two to avoid a no lynch, I favor lynching Risk over RoL, but I'd prefer to lynch neither.
[...] Geez that post came out longer than I expected. Ending with a vote on Tyrran, of course. ##Vote: Tyrran Every day i'm tunnelling... Secondly, his post are full of contradiction, which are for me one of the biggest scumtell. Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 07:47 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Well, it appears as though xsksc is no longer playing this game, as his last post was: January 04 2012 23:24. I don't like lynching lurkers, but from what I know of Erandorr, his lurking makes him likely to be scum, and I do like lynching scum. Barring him showing an actual commitment to playing, I would be fine with lynching him. On risk.nuke, his playstyle seems to vary a good deal between games, so I am not sold on him being scum yet and would certainly like to hear a bit more from him before deciding whether or not I think he is worth a lynch. TyrranTyrran's play seems very different from his play in steamship where he was town. He is being much less aggressive so far, and usually people are more aggressive as town than they are as scum. I think he would make a fine lynch for the day. My only qualm with lynching him is that he hasn't interacted with other players much so far, so his flip will be less revealing, but I like our odds of hitting scum here. My vote will be on him for now. His steamship filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=57176His filter so far this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=57176##Vote: Tyrran Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 05:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:...because I was leaning scum on Erandorr and was not on Risk. I didn't comment more on it because I was busy yesterday as I had to get shit ready for my girlfriend's birthday party/then was at it. For those wondering why I had a null read on risk, here is what Syllo said about him earlier this game: Where is the active and opinionated and aggressive risk.nuke of Election mafia who posted a lot and certainly didn't just repeat what others had said, right or wrong? Here is me asking about him in Steamship: @risk.nuke Last game I played with you you were extremely aggressive early on. This game you haven't attacked anyone yet, or even directly addressed someone. Any particular reason why you were active and aggressive last time, and are thus far being passive this game? Notice any similarities? Fun fact, he was town in steamship. So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ? Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 06:41 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Unfortunately I will not be around for the lynch deadline. As stated previously, I am also fine with an Erandorr lynch, so I will be switching my vote to him now as I don't want a no-lynch to occur. Sorry, no birthday sympathy from me. He has shown no commitment to this game, and it is my understanding that this makes him very likely to be scum. Of course he doesnt want a no-lynch to occurs, that's pretty mach the only bad outcome for angels at the end of day 1. Secondly, notice the "it is my understanding". He was the one to call for a Erandorr lynch based on meta. Yet this makes him look like he wasnt. Thirdly : His reaction after Nigth one is strange, and deceptive. I think you all remember on how his being the AoD is a possibility. Well his reaction after Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 10:42 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: I was sent to purgatory? What in the fuck? Also, no unrevealed flip? So either syllo = angel of death (seems unlikely to me, but possible) or angel of death targeted him or me (seems much more likely, and probably him if I had to bet). Why does being sent to purgatory bother him? I mean, any regular townie would have been happy to be sent to purgatory as it makes you immune to any nigth actions. So this post alone makes me think that HoD is at least a blue, more likely and angel. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:52 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 09 2012 19:58 syllogism wrote: I'm pretty sure palmar sent HoD to purgatory because he thought he was likely an angel. We of course can't draw any conclusions from that, but as noted before HoD's play has been somewhat suspicious so far. Anyway, either the angel of death attempted to hit me or the angel is HoD (or both!)
It's also fairly likely that Palmar was a demon hunter hit because demon Demonic Twister's power protects against slay/stalk but not against demon hunter. Palmar had an important role, so it's somewhat likely that they would use it on him. I'm not sure if the twister can use the ability on himself, but right considering Palmar was by far attracting the most attention, that might change things depending on who the twister is. The only reason why it matters who hit Palmar is because the other possibility is that the demon hunter hit an angel who did not die, in which case we could discuss whether him claiming would be worthwhile. Probably not and his likely target would be risk nuke anyway.
Risk.nuke still looks like the best lynch. The case against him still stands and quite a few people were against his lynch without adequately explaining why. They obviously can't all be his team mates, but it's hard to believe there would be that many townies unwilling to lynch him in that situation and be perfectly fine with lynching erandorr. His behaviour hasn't improved at all and that vt claim right before day post doesn't seem like something a townie would do. Syllo, you're pretty smart, so please tell me why on earth you think Palmar would banish me to purgatory if he thought I was an angel? Let's look at the scenarios: 1) I am the Angelic Observer - sending me to purgatory does nothing for the demons. 2) I am the Acolyte - unless I for some reason decide to go after a demon instead of a blue, does nothing for the demons. If I do go after blues, doing this hurts the demons. 3) I am the Angel of Death - I would never hit Palmar when I could get town to use up a lynch on him as lynching is the only anti-angel kp. Also leading a scum lynch can get some town cred. So one demon (Palmar) is safe. Another demon can be twisted, so now 2 are safe. Note, so far this also applies to the acolyte even if the acolyte is targeting a demon. So now blocking the angel of death is only useful if the third demon is also a likely target for a scum night kill. I don't see how any of those are a better choice than targeting someone you think is a blue, especially if you have no idea which I am and are taking the 1/3 chance of a remotely useful roleblock. As I stated, I think it is much more likely he thought I was blue than an angel. Okay, this post is just full of bullshit. I can see plenty of reason for demon to roleblock angels. His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon). Secondly you once again makes it sound like angels do not want to target demons. This is plain wrong. They want to get rid of demons. Demons are at least as dangerous for angels than blues. Channeler and courrier have the same ability to RB them, and twister is an anti angel doctor. On the other hand, going for blue gives the risk of killing the demon hunter which is basically working for them early game. You also make it look like angels would not target palmar because he could be lynched day 2. I do not agree. If they have a strong demon read on someone, i think angels would go for it. For once because they cannot be sure that he will be lynched next day ( it could very well have been risk or RoL over palmar again), and secondly because they was no corrupted town yet, finding a blue would be difficult. So because his plays correspond perfectly on how I think angels would play, because he contradict himself, and because he keeps telling shit about angel strategy, I think he is an angel himself. And I think we shoud lynch him tomorrow. Anyway, my lunch break was a bit longer that it should have been, will be back later tonigth. So your case seems to largely revolve around me tunneling you, which is interesting because that doesn't say much about alignment, and if you want to bring meta into it, feel free to look at my play in Election Mafia (as TotallyNotTwoPeople) and Steamship - here's a hint, I focus on the person I think is scummiest. You also conveniently snipped out the part of that post where I talk about other people and pretty well prove I have been extensively reading the thread/filters instead of just tunneling.
As for the lack of interest in the person being lynched, that is pure bullshit. I've been pushing you for the lynch, and if you ctrl+f my filter for mentions of Risk, I talk about him plenty. And yes, I have only played one game with Erandorr and he was part of a hydra that game, so I qualified it with "from what I know about him".
So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ? Already addressed in my filter, but apparently you aren't really reading it. Meta ON RISK is pretty useless because his play style varies so much every game, which as I have already stated IS NOT THE NORM for most players. I also already stated that your actions would be scummy even without accounting for meta. You also say my posts are full of contradiction and then that is the only example you cite. Care to point out the others?
What in the fuck? Why does being sent to purgatory bother him? I mean, any regular townie would have been happy to be sent to purgatory as it makes you immune to any nigth actions. So this post alone makes me think that HoD is at least a blue, more likely and angel. Fun tidbit about me - I use "what in the fuck" for confusion, "what the fuck" for annoyance/anger/etc. You might be able to look up other uses of this through my profile, but you might just have to take my word on it. A quick check shows I have used both once in this game so far. Being sent to purgatory didn't bother me, it confused me. I wasn't exactly fearful of night actions night one, I've never been shot night one, demons couldn't corrupt night one, and why would I care if I get investigated? That would just help me prove my innocence.
His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon). If you think this, I don't know what to tell you. Say a day starts with 1 corrupted town, 3 demons, and 3 angels. In this situation, demons win nearly 100% of the time. Given the fact that there are investigative roles and an anti-corruption role, demons are definitely not looking to drag this game out more than they have to so long as those roles are still alive.
Secondly you once again makes it sound like angels do not want to target demons. This is plain wrong. They want to get rid of demons. Demons are at least as dangerous for angels than blues. Channeler and courrier have the same ability to RB them, and twister is an anti angel doctor. On the other hand, going for blue gives the risk of killing the demon hunter which is basically working for them early game. If the demon hunter hits someone, they live, and they weren't banished to purgatory, he knows that person is an angel - no exceptions. He is not working for the angels, he is nearly as anti-angel as he is anti-demon. This has already been pointed out as well. I also don't see how they could find demons to be a bigger threat early game than town. The channeler, seer, and demon hunter combined have about as much anti-angel ability as the entire demon team...and then you have 1 more blue and a bunch of vanillas as well for town. The only way they might consider town less dangerous is the lack of coordination.
|
@Syllo Based on what I have seen of his play/thoughts on other games, I think Blazinghand may genuinely believe his case on RoL is good.
|
Maybe he isn't pushing his plan because we already overwhelmingly rejected it?
|
On January 13 2012 03:41 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 03:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon). If you think this, I don't know what to tell you. Say a day starts with 1 corrupted town, 3 demons, and 3 angels. In this situation, demons win nearly 100% of the time. Given the fact that there are investigative roles and an anti-corruption role, demons are definitely not looking to drag this game out more than they have to so long as those roles are still alive. What in the fuck? What? He said an angel hit on a townie was bad for demons, and that is absolutely false. If demons get down to that scenario, they lynch an angel, 2/3 chance they remove a potential kp and win automatically. Then 1/3 chance they get the observer, then angels need to get both hits through the twisting/sending to purgatory, so they need to hit the only 2 unprotected of the 4. So 1/18 total chance of angel win if it gets down to that scenario, and that is assuming they know which one is town out of the 4. Lower if they don't. So if angels hit nothing but town, which he claims is bad for demons, the demons will very likely win. Hell, even if they don't have a corrupted town left alive and it is a regular vt, town gets a minor victory by killing all angels, so it would be the same result anyway unless the townie decides to ignore that minor win condition.
|
On January 13 2012 04:52 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 04:21 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 13 2012 03:41 layabout wrote:On January 13 2012 03:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:His post focus on why demons would try to save palmar. The goal of demons is not only to save themself, they also have to prevent angels to win. Banishing them is a good move in this regard as they have a high chance of reducing their KP ( as I stated before, any angel hit, be it town or demon,is actually bad for demon). If you think this, I don't know what to tell you. Say a day starts with 1 corrupted town, 3 demons, and 3 angels. In this situation, demons win nearly 100% of the time. Given the fact that there are investigative roles and an anti-corruption role, demons are definitely not looking to drag this game out more than they have to so long as those roles are still alive. What in the fuck? What? He said an angel hit on a townie was bad for demons, and that is absolutely false. If demons get down to that scenario, they lynch an angel, 2/3 chance they remove a potential kp and win automatically. Then 1/3 chance they get the observer, then angels need to get both hits through the twisting/sending to purgatory, so they need to hit the only 2 unprotected of the 4. So 1/18 total chance of angel win if it gets down to that scenario, and that is assuming they know which one is town out of the 4. Lower if they don't. So if angels hit nothing but town, which he claims is bad for demons, the demons will very likely win. Hell, even if they don't have a corrupted town left alive and it is a regular vt, town gets a minor victory by killing all angels, so it would be the same result anyway unless the townie decides to ignore that minor win condition. Why on earth do you base your decision of "does killing town benefit demons?" on an unrealistic (and in this game impossible) extreme scenario in which there are 3 demons 1 corrupted town and 2 angels left in the game? In order for them to make use of the corrupted town mechanic demons need to corrupt town players. They need these players to be alive to count towards their win condition. All three angels and the sage are immune to corruption. Plus the demons cannot corrupt themselves. The demons get 1 corruption every two nights. As it currently stands: there are 13 non-demons out of 15 players. 9/13 can be corrupted. 3 blues 6 vanillas. it is likely that several of these players will not still be alive by night 4 (the demons next corruption). Killing vanilla town weakens the power of corruption drastically. It reduces the number of players that can be corrupted increasing the chance of is missing. And it increases the proportion of blues and Angels in the player base which increases the chance that demons will be investigated or killed. Demons need to kill 2/4 blues and 3/3 angels and gain a majority with corruption, killing vanilla town is a bad lynch from the demons perspective only a demon or the seer flipping is worse for them. (the value of a channeller lynch for them could be argued either way as the channeller keeps players alive but could stop a corruption). 3 demons, 1 town, 3 angels, not 2 angels. Unrealistic, yes. But just proving the point that demons don't mind townies being dead. Also shows that even if they don't get angels killed early on, as long as they stay alive any death brings them closer to winning. Nowhere does it say if the hit/lynch is on vanilla town - just on town in general, but if you think their corruption being slightly more likely to fail is their primary concern, I think you are quite mistaken. The longer this game goes on with the demon hunter and sage alive, the more likely they are to lose, regardless of their ability to corrupt. They can't kill those people themselves, so they either need to mislynch them, or hope the angels hit them. Assuming the angels use their acolyte to try to kill people with dark powers, which I assure you they will, the proportion of blues will go down, not up. Yes, the sage can't be killed with that, but he can be killed by the AoD, and I doubt the demons would mind the demon hunter or channeler ending up dead.
You stress they need those players alive to count for their win condition, which is true, but you ignore the other half of their win condition. They/their corrupted minions need to outnumber the remaining players in the game. So they want the number of remaining players to be as small as possible.
tl;dr: Holy fuck they don't need to corrupt anyone to win this game, and they want to survive while everyone else dies, not make this game last a bajillion days.
|
@Blazinghand I understand you think RoL is scum and all, but don't you think it might be useful to look through the other filters as well? In case you see something that makes someone else a better target than him, or that exonerates RoL in some way? Focus is fine, pure tunneling is not. I'm focused on Tyrran, but I read everyone else's filter at least once before making my giant post, and have read at least a half dozen of them again since making it.
Also, your filter just hit page 15 and this is a 72 page thread in an 18 player game. -just saying-
|
On January 13 2012 08:35 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:24 Spaackle wrote: I'll be around for a little while, so feel free to ask/tell/compliment/insult me anything. Your bullshit score is under 5% congrats. If i were to suggest to you that the majority of HoD's post are about "safe" or irrelevant issues that do not require him to take a stance; That he draws and promotes strange conclusions; that a lot of his interaction's and question answering ignore the issue at hand; that he picks up on non-issues and tries to uses that to defeat arguments; and that misrepresents scenario's or mis-applies concepts like occam's razor you would say what? I posted my top four (if I am recalling the number correctly) scum reads in the thread, I commented on both the RoL and the Risk.Nuke cases, I voted to lynch Erandorr, I voted to lynch Tyrran, I have stated I believe Syllo to most likely be town, I don't know if I directly stated it but I believe Blazinghand to be town as well.
On January 13 2012 08:49 syllogism wrote: HoD you asked Grackaroni, Spaackle and Cwave for their scum reads and they mostly didn't materialize. Do you not care? You have been quite detached from the game; certainly not one I would characterize as someone who attempts to produce information and then do something with it. Indeed you seem to put most of your efforts into defending yourself or arguing about irrelevant game mechanics/strategy issues. I have limited time, and people keep asking me about that shit so I answer them. I should probably just ignore them though. Spaackle and Grackaroni replied. Cwave is the only one that ignored me, but that's fine for now.
|
On January 13 2012 08:53 syllogism wrote: Limited time and instantly delurk Yup. Today was a slower day than they have been lately, and the timing is coincidental, had you stated that an hour or two ago I would not have replied instantly. If it was instant delurk I also would have responded to layabout as soon as he posted.
|
I thought this was worth pointing out, Tyrran's case on me, aka ctrl+c/ctrl+v:
I snipped the example posts and the intro part, as they were not necessary to show that his case is simply reused material. If you want to see the whole thing along with my response to it, click: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=71#1414
On January 12 2012 23:20 Tyrran wrote:-snipped intro- HoD and Jackal have done nothing but tunnelling this game. HoD on me, Jackal on Palmar then Dirzkor. Not only that, but they had NO INTEREST at all about the player that was getting lyched. Here are some example : -snipped examples- + Show Spoiler +On January 08 2012 20:31 syllogism wrote: Harbingerofdoom's refusal to vote for Risk seems quite bad as well. He is still ignoring risk and not really explaining why. On January 09 2012 04:57 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:16 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Are people seriously trying to implicate me on the basis of "soft-defending" risk by voting Erandorr instead? Well.. i made a slight error here (RoL had said he would vote for erandor here but he never voted) Erandor had four votes when HoD voted: Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Tyrran and Cwave Risk.nuke had 6 votes:syllogism, Refallen, Dirkzor, Zephirdd, layabout, Erandorr, @HoD your primary reasoning was to that to avoid a no-lynch you would vote for Erandorr because you were "fine with lynching him" in light of all of the pressure of risk.nuke why didn't you comment on it? if you wanted to avoid the no-lynch why did you vote Erandorr rather than voting for risk, who had the most votes? Secondly, his post are full of contradiction, which are for me one of the biggest scumtell. -snipped examples- So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ? + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 04:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:30 syllogism wrote: You are still pretending that the case against risk was purely meta and it most certainly was not. You are repeating the same misrepresentations that risk used, making you look worse. Moreover the case against Erandorr was pure meta and you were fine with voting for him based on just that. A lot of things were even said about risk.nuke since you made that post. What do you think about him now?
Anyway, we will certainly want to see risk flip first and you have a chance to step up regardless, but I do believe your stance regarding risk nuke has been suspicious I am not pretending it is pure meta. I am saying his meta confuses the shit out of me so I am not confident in my read on him. And my post said what I think of him now. On January 12 2012 04:42 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 04:22 syllogism wrote: Pretty much everything you said about Tyrran (passivity, lack of confidence in his reads, overall disinterest in the lynches) applied to risk as well. Can you point out what made risk look like a townie (?) to you? gasdjafeaiuhfaisdf ...you think a guy who nearly got lynched wasn't interested in the lynch? Are you being serious right now? Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:15 risk.nuke wrote: layabout is probably a townie, Question Palmar and Dirkzor, Erandorr and Jackal are red. Banish syllo/wiggles tonight, see you. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:41 risk.nuke wrote: whew, I'm so god damn relived right now Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 04:50 risk.nuke wrote:On January 09 2012 04:32 syllogism wrote:On January 09 2012 04:18 Dirkzor wrote:On January 09 2012 04:06 syllogism wrote:On January 09 2012 04:01 Palmar wrote: yeah, this needs to be done now, or not. I'd rather go with not. This is palmar scum claiming. He has been trolling for a while now but this is as close at is gets If I had written that would you take that as scum claiming? No, but you aren't a player who I talk extensively about the game, in and out of the game. It's extremely unlikely that he would say that as town and I'm pretty sure that when he wrote that he knew very well how it would look like to me; he has by this point realized that there is little he can do to avoid being lynched so might as well have some fun. Imo a town Palmar would respond to that with a pretty huge post declaring why the plan is dumb alternativly if he approved of the plan he would write additional thoughts or/and reason further why it is a good plan. Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:49 risk.nuke wrote:On January 11 2012 00:19 syllogism wrote:On January 10 2012 23:34 risk.nuke wrote:On January 10 2012 23:33 syllogism wrote: Zephirdd: you don't assume stupid things just because they are possible. Read my filter and tell me if it looks like scum play; it does not. I even suggested that the channeler should use its power to protect likely n1 targets, which would be ridiculously bad if I was the angel of death. Thus you should either conclude that they tried to hit me or HoD is the angel. The former likely implies that there was a reason for angels to want me dead, which implicates risk/tyrran. This means nothing, quite obviously if you were scum you would act like you played pro town. This is perhaps the single most scummiest thing I've seen on TL Mafia. Lynch this scum please lol, bullshit. There were a very very fucking very good chance that if you hadn't said that somebody else would had and you know that. The abillity has 2 functions, roleblock and save. Save is about 1000xtimes better. Period. I laugh at your "I said it first and it's an anti angel move so I can't be an angel" logic. fucking proposterous that you're trying to milk that so far. You're trying to claim that just because you're playing pro-town you can't possibly be scum. Ha. And right now you're tunneling me on a shitty case that only makes sense if you were an angel so thats what I think of you beeing pro-town. Yup, no confidence in any of those, certainly no aggressive tones or anything either. Also, as I stated before, Risk's play varies quite widely from game to game, despite him having been town in every game I have played with him. That is certainly not the norm for most players. But, the real deciding factor for me was nothing to do with that, it was simply that Risk's play seemed to be explainable from the perspective of a townie on the verge of being lynched and frustrated at having to defend himself. Knowing my own alignment, it was also odd to me that I was his main defender, I figured if he was scum surely a scum buddy would support my defense of him. Obviously that point doesn't get to apply to other people though, as they don't know my alignment. Was I sold on him being town? No, but he also didn't make my top 5 most likely to be scum. Tyrran on the other hand was doing that shit with me being the only real source of pressure on him. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 06:41 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Unfortunately I will not be around for the lynch deadline. As stated previously, I am also fine with an Erandorr lynch, so I will be switching my vote to him now as I don't want a no-lynch to occur. Sorry, no birthday sympathy from me. He has shown no commitment to this game, and it is my understanding that this makes him very likely to be scum. Of course he doesnt want a no-lynch to occurs, that's pretty mach the only bad outcome for angels at the end of day 1. Secondly, notice the "it is my understanding". He was the one to call for a Erandorr lynch based on meta. Yet this makes him look like he wasnt. + Show Spoiler +Ok, so this part isn't completely copy-pasted, it is just dumb reasoning, close enough. I'm sure if I said I wanted a no-lynch he'd say of course you do, lynching is our only way of killing angels! Thirdly : His reaction after Nigth one is strange, and deceptive. + Show Spoiler +If he was only talking about the "What in the fuck" part, I gave my explanation of that in the post linked at the start of this one, and then the following quote does not apply. However, I am kinda assuming it was also due to my continued discussion of it, in which case this does apply. On January 10 2012 03:51 layabout wrote:What Purpose does the Post "Why I think I was put in purgatory" serve? How does it help town? I think Palmar and/or his team mistakenly believed that I was the demon hunter due to these posts: You connect the idea of you being sent to purgatory* with the idea that your posting caused the demons to think that you were the demon hunter. You present the idea of your posts being responsible for the angels banishing you because you have made them think that you were the demonhunter. From this it would easily be infered that you posted TO make them think you were they demon hunter. You then say To me this seems like gloating because you associate the demons thinking that you were the demon hunter (which is WIFOM and total speculation) with a demon being lynchedI don't see how this helps town but i do see how you associate your posting at the start of the game and a demon flipping and how this tries to put you in a better light despite the fact that your decisions about how to behave were almost certainly not made with that goal in mind and if they were the actual chance of them acheiving the result of a dead demon is next to none. That is why i see it as gloating. Speculation about scum motivation and scum goals when they commit actions that will be subject to scrutiny is what part of your post is and is almost the perfect example of WIFOM. *which could have been because either the channeller though you were a town asset to protect or a demon or angel to roleblock OR the demons felt that you were a blue or an angel OR you were targeted by one of the two because they felt night actions would land on you and they wished to roleblock those targerting you OR they may have simply wanted increase attention on you. There is a plethora of reasons that could be the case and without addition information we cannot rule many out. If the demons send a player to purgatory they know towwn will find out and this will impact their decision making. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 03:52 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 09 2012 19:58 syllogism wrote: I'm pretty sure palmar sent HoD to purgatory because he thought he was likely an angel. We of course can't draw any conclusions from that, but as noted before HoD's play has been somewhat suspicious so far. Anyway, either the angel of death attempted to hit me or the angel is HoD (or both!)
It's also fairly likely that Palmar was a demon hunter hit because demon Demonic Twister's power protects against slay/stalk but not against demon hunter. Palmar had an important role, so it's somewhat likely that they would use it on him. I'm not sure if the twister can use the ability on himself, but right considering Palmar was by far attracting the most attention, that might change things depending on who the twister is. The only reason why it matters who hit Palmar is because the other possibility is that the demon hunter hit an angel who did not die, in which case we could discuss whether him claiming would be worthwhile. Probably not and his likely target would be risk nuke anyway.
Risk.nuke still looks like the best lynch. The case against him still stands and quite a few people were against his lynch without adequately explaining why. They obviously can't all be his team mates, but it's hard to believe there would be that many townies unwilling to lynch him in that situation and be perfectly fine with lynching erandorr. His behaviour hasn't improved at all and that vt claim right before day post doesn't seem like something a townie would do. Syllo, you're pretty smart, so please tell me why on earth you think Palmar would banish me to purgatory if he thought I was an angel? Let's look at the scenarios: 1) I am the Angelic Observer - sending me to purgatory does nothing for the demons. 2) I am the Acolyte - unless I for some reason decide to go after a demon instead of a blue, does nothing for the demons. If I do go after blues, doing this hurts the demons. 3) I am the Angel of Death - I would never hit Palmar when I could get town to use up a lynch on him as lynching is the only anti-angel kp. Also leading a scum lynch can get some town cred. So one demon (Palmar) is safe. Another demon can be twisted, so now 2 are safe. Note, so far this also applies to the acolyte even if the acolyte is targeting a demon. So now blocking the angel of death is only useful if the third demon is also a likely target for a scum night kill. I don't see how any of those are a better choice than targeting someone you think is a blue, especially if you have no idea which I am and are taking the 1/3 chance of a remotely useful roleblock. As I stated, I think it is much more likely he thought I was blue than an angel. Okay, this post is just full of bullshit. I can see plenty of reason for demon to roleblock angels. + Show Spoiler +On January 10 2012 04:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 04:09 Cwave wrote:On January 10 2012 03:52 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Syllo, you're pretty smart, so please tell me why on earth you think Palmar would banish me to purgatory if he thought I was an angel?
Let's look at the scenarios: 1) I am the Angelic Observer - sending me to purgatory does nothing for the demons. 2) I am the Acolyte - unless I for some reason decide to go after a demon instead of a blue, does nothing for the demons. If I do go after blues, doing this hurts the demons. 3) I am the Angel of Death - I would never hit Palmar when I could get town to use up a lynch on him as lynching is the only anti-angel kp. Also leading a scum lynch can get some town cred. So one demon (Palmar) is safe. Another demon can be twisted, so now 2 are safe. Note, so far this also applies to the acolyte even if the acolyte is targeting a demon. So now blocking the angel of death is only useful if the third demon is also a likely target for a scum night kill.
I don't see how any of those are a better choice than targeting someone you think is a blue, especially if you have no idea which I am and are taking the 1/3 chance of a remotely useful roleblock. As I stated, I think it is much more likely he thought I was blue than an angel. Wowowowo, you oversee(on purpose?) one thing. This is a 3 faction game but when it comes to lyncing, its a 2 faction game looking from your own POV(town,angel,demon). Lynching is our only way to kill angels and demons help just as much with their lynch vote as the town when it comes to killing an angel. So your point 3 is wrong cause when you are the AoD you want demon and town dead as they can lynch vote you. And of all the demons, the demonic courier is the one that can actually hurt the angel team. So hell yeah you would hit Palmar if you knew he was the courier. Point 1) can you out your angel of death and get him couriered for 3 straight nights. Point 2) can get you the twister or courier killed, all in the benefit of both the town and angels. Another weird point if that you choose to eloborate point 3) with way more effort and text. If this was "The mentalist" or "Lie to me" i would call dibs in the couch on who was the liar as people tend to put to much effort in the lie they want to tell. Points up on my suspected angel-list HoB...... ...but there is literally a 0% chance of angels knowing which demon role Palmar was before he flipped so that is irrelevant. And you hit blues over demons because the seer, demon hunter, and channeler are all incredibly potent town assets against angels, and demons being alive gives you valid targets to scum hunt and get lynched instead of your teammates. If town is weak, sure, they might start killing off some demons on purpose, but them doing so now would be stupid. I elaborated point 3 because it was the only one that might actually be worth a damn to the demons. Now, unless anyone has specific questions for me or actually wants to lynch me instead of just saying "I think he might be an angel" and then doing nothing about it, I will no longer be mentioning my trip to purgatory/what I think the reasoning behind it is and will instead focus on more useful shit.
On January 12 2012 05:41 syllogism wrote: Tyrran post a case on someone you would like to be lynched tomorrow and it can't be Jackal and it can't be copy/pasted material like everything else you've said so far. Trolololol.
|
@Tyrran
First of all : "Assuming the angels use their acolyte to try to kill people with dark powers, which I assure you they will " If this isnt a angel claim, then i dont know what it is. Do what you want with your acolyte, but I really do not see why blues are priority target and demons/corrupted town are not. Killing the DH early would be really bad for angels. Killing a corrupted town however is really good for them. Why wouldnt they try to reduce the demons voting power ? You consider that claiming to be angel, and then you assert that they will go after demons/corrupted town instead, as well as assigning 0% probability to them targeting syllo night one. So I make an assertion about their decisions, it is me claiming angel, but when you do it then it is totally fine?
Secondly : Wtf if this tl:dr ? Demons should win without using corrupt ? Are you going to argue next that Angels should win wihtout killing anyone ? I look forward to you hosting a normal game where scum has no KP and town has vigs because " well scum can just survive while everyone else dies". I said don't need to, as in it is possible for them to win without it, not should. Don't twist my words.
This is your ultimate argument ? That my case against you did not fullfill the Syllogism's standard and therefore is, I quote : "Trolololol". Well, that sure makes you look town. I just found it amusing that after being specifically told to not make more 'contributions' using arguments that have already been made, you then do just that. That wasn't my ultimate argument, my argument was my long response post, obviously.
Lastly : So Syllo is not AoD. Would the AoD have targeted Syllo N1 ? If you consider that 1) Syllo was very likely getting banished and 2) Syllo was pushing for lynching 3 non angel target ( palmar(Demon), Erandorr(VT), Risk(VT), ). There was absolutely no reason for AoD to shoot him N1. So either you are AoD, or he shot you. The only reason he would have shot you is by shooting randomly ( as you had no reason to be killed prior to any other player), meaning there was a 1/10th of a chance that you would get hit. So it boils down to this: Either you are AoD, or you got shot which had about 10% chance of happening. Well, math says that there is 90% chance you are AoD. This is just dumb.
Also, I am beginning to think all of Tyrran's ridiculous statements such as saying there is no way Syllo would be targeted night one, or that every night kill is bad for demons are more likely to be just poor reasoning than a charade as scum. I just don't see how scum could be making all these bizarre assertions.
|
|
|
|