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On January 14 2012 04:17 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:57 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:49 Jayjay54 wrote: I don't get it, BC. Why now?
From what I read here, you were on top of quite some voting lists, including mine? So why would you roleclaim when your campaign was good enough on its own.
Also, I'd like to line up with VE here. There's seriously nothing that says "I am town" here.
Or would you consider your claim a bad play if you were scum?
Therefore, I am glad that I didn't vote yet, because if I had, I had to unvote. Sceptical now. Being a mayor or sheriff whereas would rock does not outweigh what masons in generally can fuck up later in the game. I am one of whatever the end number is. If i don't get elected fine, however, is making everyone aware of at least one of the players who is capable of being active in pms a bad thing? As opposed to just saying "wow now your scummy" Discuss how we want to operate around masons, pros, cons, etc... Of all the roles in this setup, it is the only "confirmable role" but it is also insanely sinister as players can plant seeds of doubt, fish roles, etc... and that's kinda what you just did. you seeded doubt. why not win the campaign => roleclaim => comfirm. how would that in any why fuck up late game? the timing just seems off. Because i believe its important to get the discussion with as early as possible? Masons act the instant day 1 begins. Whereas all other roles act at night in the exception of a jack using their mason ability (i believe). This claim where "ill timed" only puts me at risk to a day 1 lynch to confirm my alignment. My role is confirmable. I can help assist the town via same actions I would do as a leader without the elected position, and with my claim mafia now has a hard time dealing with me. HOW as a group, do we want to deal with all masons as a whole? I say this as simply put. Not everyone is going to be a mason. Anyone could be mason'd. With a role that is potentially in the hands of both scum and town alike we need to discuss this now. Anyone who has seen me play before recognizes my stance on role does not = alignment, and with a powerful role like mason this shit has to be dealt with sooner rather than later. So you really think that having like 30 hours of discussion of how we should apply our masons do outweigh the pros of having a mason mayor? why is that? especially. when we not even know if you're a) a mason and b) town. Your role is not even confirmable at this point. Scum buddy " YAY he mason" Also, you say that with your claim it is hard for the mafia to deal with you. More than if you would've been mayor? How so? The discussion "HOW as a group do we want to deal with all masons as a whole" didn't really need a roleclaim. It would have started automatically. Hell, you could even haven given some ideas within your campaign. Sorry, I don't see any single reason why you would jeopardize your election with a roleclaim? Just to start a discussion how to deal with masons is really little - none benefit. Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote: @jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post?
I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later.
Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit.
Posted from phone, will post more later. You posted TL links. How is this coming from a spreadsheet? Do you have links in your spreadsheet? The mafia tag was a dig, yes. Your thoughts on BM and BC are right, though
how is my role not confirmable? Say im scum and a scumbuddy says "yes he mason'd me" if i die and flip non mason red, both of us die and two mafia die? How is that effective at all.
as for me beginning the discussion without claiming. With how I feel on the matter, it would easily come out via my posting that I would be the role, as such, why not just claim it now and get it over with. I am being as transparent as possible, and putting forth an issue everyone has an opinion on. That in itself is insanely important day 1. Generating discussion in hopes that town wins is far more important than my run at an election.
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On January 14 2012 04:26 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:58 VisceraEyes wrote: BC: Well, obviously you're no GF this game, because you claimed a confirmable role. Unless I'm mistaken, scum can't be mason AND GF, yes? DT checks will be accurate on you...so there's that. Confirming your alignment, in my opinion, should be paramount because I find it EXTREMELY likely that you would have elected to be mason on the scum team (for reasons that should be obvious to you and several others.)
What's your plan on confirming your role? Are you going to out who you've masoned with? Are you going to let them do it at their own pace?
I will out my first mason shortly, I want the debate to however move towards how to deal with masons as a whole. I say this because you know from experience with me just how subtle a touch can be needed to manipulate/confuse someone. A mafia mason will have the experience of a team in manipulation whereas a town member has their own ability to run with. On January 14 2012 04:01 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2012 03:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote: The Day 1 Important Discussion Post #1
Read this post fully before posting. It is something that everyone must read, and that everyone must comment on
That is right friends, this post as I am writing it is near one of the most important posts of this game day. You are going to ask? Why BC? Simple. I am about to do something that will cause people to yell and scream at me. I am roleclaiming.
I am mason
Note what I have done? [1] I have now put myself from the statistical chance of flipping a town aligned role of 80%ish and lowered it to a solid 50%.
I am now either 50% red or 50% blue.[/1.]
I am doing this for a few reasons.
[2] 1) in this game there could exist masons on both sides of the equation. As such dealing with them early is key as they work behind the scenes of the game. [/2]
[3] 2) it is a confirmable role, stress this point, ROLE. I can confirm my role at the beginning of a day cycle as opposed to at the end of a day cycle [/3]
3) I am being transparent. By giving this information now, reading me becomes far easier. There will never be the "is he blue trying to breadcrumb etc..?"
[4] 4) goes along with 3, however it outs one of the masons now. It stops the discussion later of people discussing all the people who are masons and who is believable late game whereas we can cover at least one of them now [/4]
This also sets the town up in a very advantageous way. Why you ask?
I am elected and now town knowingly knows I am active in pms. I am not elected and not auto lynched by mayor and same information is known.
[5] It also forces the mafia to deal with me as they have no idea what I am doing in pm land. Do they try and kill who I am talking to? Do they use their own masons and attempt to find out what I have said, etc....[/5]
This I feel is the most advantageous day 1 use of my ability. I have already used my mason use for the day and will say who I used it on after this post in the nearish future. I am leaving who it is out as the purpose is to generate discussion on my claim, not on who I chose to mason to. As to detail of why I did this aside from the general points I made? Everyone will have an opinion on this claim. Some good, some bad. People will have to have an opinion on this subject however. EVERYONE will have an opinion. Do not just post "wtf bc you dumb fuck why would you do this". This is a debate about me specifically being a mason and if I should be elected, not elected and lynched, or not elected and left for the mafia to deal with me.
All vets, all new players, all semi experienced players will have an opinion and it is needed. Anyone who fails to properly contribute on this matter. I have thought this claim out and realize that generally claiming day 1 is bad, however I feel at least with this mechanic and how it could be abused it should be discussed (especially with a high profile player such as myself possessing it) now and not later.
On the most important note that this post will do however is generate serious discussion. How do you all wish to proceed with a mason claim? Specifically my mason claim?
1) That's obviously bullshit. The chances to win lottery aren't 50% because you either win or you don't... but I see what you want to tell us 2) why? 3) no it's not. You're masoning someone. That someone is going to tell us if you masoned him. If you are a mafia you could tell us you masoned a mafiabuddy and of course your buddy will tell everyone you pm'ed him. 4) I don't realy care about what's going to happen with discussion later on if whatever might happen. I want to get a town mayor right now and for that reason I'd much rather see things tell give me something on your alignment than something that might or might not improve future-world 5) I'm pretty sure mafia will have to deal with you no matter what. That is if you're town. It's not like mafia is going not kill you because they think you might be a green instead of a blue and therefor you're no threat to them. Incorrect for you good sir. my role unlike anyone elses is confirmable. However my role is able to appear on both town and mafia sides thus rather than claiming "i am townie" and having the 80ish% chance of being one of the townie i am now firmly 50/50. My role is confirmable, my alignment isn't. You can clearly say "you were either 1 or the other before" however I have removed fake claiming almost entirely. Mafia do not benefit from me fake claiming this, nor do town. as for how I can confirm my role at the start? I mason at the beginning of a cycle not the end. As for saying its not confirmable? If i am a generic red and claim mason my mafia buddy says i masoned him. I die flip mafia goon he fucking dies. The only people who in their right mind would claim mason, are mason. As for also saying im not transparent? You know my role, I am even trying to discuss the role itself. If you do not care about the possible damages of a mafia mason late game and only care about the now then you are not playing in the best interests of this town. You must always look ahead. If there are roles that could potentially fuck town two days from now that wouldn't have if we talked about them today then we talk about it today. Period. as for mafia dealing with me? Say for arguments sake, there are 4 masons and 1 is red. I don't get elected and am not lynched by mayor. Mafia now has the option of killing me and thus reducing the number of people they can hide amongst and masons are confirmable. By claiming, town will always be analyzing me and determining if i am red or blue and choose to off me based on it. Mafia have the risk of killing me early and thus potentially outing one of their own early on or leaving me alone and hope the town ignores me. The longer I live the more benefit i am to the town and if i die by mafia shot I out one of their own slightly faster. Now. How do people wish to deal with masons as a whole? Do all discussions made get posted in thread? Do we opt to not talk to people who mason you, etc... This is an important matter, move just passed my personal claim and look at the role as a whole. Here is a link to a thread where masons were discussed before to get an idea why I think its important to discuss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278946the situation proposed there is obviously different from this game but the important none the less. The part about what I called 1) was what you said in your example: If there are 4 masons and only one is red the chances are not 50/50. If we don't have the exact same amount of blue roles it's not going to be 50/50. But that's just useless chat so I'll leave it with that because it's just not important at all imo. About your example what is going to happen if you're red and ask a buddy to help out. If this thing of yours works out and people believe you you won't be lynched. Neither will scum kill you because you are a mafia yourself in that scenario. Even if there's a rampaging vigi you're safe due to your bodyguards if you're elected. The guy you masoned probably is someone you think is town I guess? Why should he be lynched and same applies to mafia here: Mafia won't shoot that if you are mafia. About late game: I've never seen masions in action. I think they look neat but I can't judge how good they are. That's why I asked "why" because I did not think we have to talk about masons because I did not think they're that scary. That was more of an "explain pls".
The only way my claim makes sense if i am actually a mason. The role inherently is 50/50 % of being red. My example says that i would have a 25% chance, but the role itself is a 50/50. Regardless, ignore the math.
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them. Only a mason would make my claim.
your ignore the case that im town. In whichcase if i am elected mafia now hates my guts, if i am not they still hate my guts as dealing with me is hard. You could frame me sure, but a dt checks, i die and they still are on a reduced list. Only my actions at this point will save me from dying or guarentee it.
As for masons in action? Ask VE what I did in fw's game where everyone had 2 mason uses. I was mafia he was town, and in 1-2 conversations i had him create utter chaos in thread. We have had near no game where only a limited amount of players are masons. It will be a mechanic that can do more damage than any other role in this game.
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On January 14 2012 04:27 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:21 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:17 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 04:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:57 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:49 Jayjay54 wrote: I don't get it, BC. Why now?
From what I read here, you were on top of quite some voting lists, including mine? So why would you roleclaim when your campaign was good enough on its own.
Also, I'd like to line up with VE here. There's seriously nothing that says "I am town" here.
Or would you consider your claim a bad play if you were scum?
Therefore, I am glad that I didn't vote yet, because if I had, I had to unvote. Sceptical now. Being a mayor or sheriff whereas would rock does not outweigh what masons in generally can fuck up later in the game. I am one of whatever the end number is. If i don't get elected fine, however, is making everyone aware of at least one of the players who is capable of being active in pms a bad thing? As opposed to just saying "wow now your scummy" Discuss how we want to operate around masons, pros, cons, etc... Of all the roles in this setup, it is the only "confirmable role" but it is also insanely sinister as players can plant seeds of doubt, fish roles, etc... and that's kinda what you just did. you seeded doubt. why not win the campaign => roleclaim => comfirm. how would that in any why fuck up late game? the timing just seems off. Because i believe its important to get the discussion with as early as possible? Masons act the instant day 1 begins. Whereas all other roles act at night in the exception of a jack using their mason ability (i believe). This claim where "ill timed" only puts me at risk to a day 1 lynch to confirm my alignment. My role is confirmable. I can help assist the town via same actions I would do as a leader without the elected position, and with my claim mafia now has a hard time dealing with me. HOW as a group, do we want to deal with all masons as a whole? I say this as simply put. Not everyone is going to be a mason. Anyone could be mason'd. With a role that is potentially in the hands of both scum and town alike we need to discuss this now. Anyone who has seen me play before recognizes my stance on role does not = alignment, and with a powerful role like mason this shit has to be dealt with sooner rather than later. So you really think that having like 30 hours of discussion of how we should apply our masons do outweigh the pros of having a mason mayor? why is that? especially. when we not even know if you're a) a mason and b) town. Your role is not even confirmable at this point. Scum buddy " YAY he mason" Also, you say that with your claim it is hard for the mafia to deal with you. More than if you would've been mayor? How so? The discussion "HOW as a group do we want to deal with all masons as a whole" didn't really need a roleclaim. It would have started automatically. Hell, you could even haven given some ideas within your campaign. Sorry, I don't see any single reason why you would jeopardize your election with a roleclaim? Just to start a discussion how to deal with masons is really little - none benefit. On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote: @jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post?
I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later.
Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit.
Posted from phone, will post more later. You posted TL links. How is this coming from a spreadsheet? Do you have links in your spreadsheet? The mafia tag was a dig, yes. Your thoughts on BM and BC are right, though how is my role not confirmable? Say im scum and a scumbuddy says "yes he mason'd me" if i die and flip non mason red, both of us die and two mafia die? How is that effective at all. as for me beginning the discussion without claiming. With how I feel on the matter, it would easily come out via my posting that I would be the role, as such, why not just claim it now and get it over with. I am being as transparent as possible, and putting forth an issue everyone has an opinion on. That in itself is insanely important day 1. Generating discussion in hopes that town wins is far more important than my run at an election. your roleclaim is likely, but not sure. 2 people at risk for trust and doubt in townfolk isn't that bad of a deal. by being transparent, you're actually not. You still didn't answer why you would jeopardize your campaign? I'm not even saying you're scum, I just say that I think it's a bad move. Being elected and being protected by 1(imo) bodyguard.Then roleclaim as mayor. Being able to talk to your guards. Get three votes. That would've been it...
What you are suggesting is the selfish move. I am a member of the town. One member is not more important than the rest. Am I more experienced than some? yes. However, this move itself is annoying for mafia to deal with. For instance.
Say that we only allow masons to work in pm's who claim publically as an example. If a single person fails to claim and someone gets mason'd they die. In that case you either catch a dumb fucking townie or a mafia. Does town decide to just ignore all mason requests and operate with everything in thread? Are all pm chains going to be placed in thread, etc...
Eliminating a powerful weapon from the mafia is insanely beneficial tactic that benefits the town. So say my jeopardizing my own election fucks the mafias abilities in the grand scheme to corrupt or manipulate townies via pms? Is that not worth it?
Townies should do most of the major posting and plans in thread at all times, so they have no real reason to use pms whereas mafia gets huge gains. As a mason can only talk 1 a player once for 1 cycle in a game, it is more beneficial for them as they can manipulate but don't suffer the long term scrutiny they would get if they talked to someone all game.
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On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch
how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom.
As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc...
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On January 14 2012 04:45 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom. As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc... The very fact you as a red shouldn't choose another red makes it wifom. You could do it in an attempt to give the other person cred in the event you flipped.
How does me flipping red or blue give cred to whoever I picked? It gives you no information on them aside from the fact I mason'd them. I can talk to people, not confirm their alignment, or anything. If i say i masoned x and i die and flip, regardless of my alignment you gain no information on that player aside from I talked to them.
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On January 14 2012 04:46 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote: What you are suggesting is the selfish move. I am a member of the town. One member is not more important than the rest. Am I more experienced than some? yes. However, this move itself is annoying for mafia to deal with. For instance.
Say that we only allow masons to work in pm's who claim publically as an example. If a single person fails to claim and someone gets mason'd they die. In that case you either catch a dumb fucking townie or a mafia. Does town decide to just ignore all mason requests and operate with everything in thread? Are all pm chains going to be placed in thread, etc...
Eliminating a powerful weapon from the mafia is insanely beneficial tactic that benefits the town. So say my jeopardizing my own election fucks the mafias abilities in the grand scheme to corrupt or manipulate townies via pms? Is that not worth it?
Townies should do most of the major posting and plans in thread at all times, so they have no real reason to use pms whereas mafia gets huge gains. As a mason can only talk 1 a player once for 1 cycle in a game, it is more beneficial for them as they can manipulate but don't suffer the long term scrutiny they would get if they talked to someone all game.
so you're saying, you interfering with the mafias powers because you conjure up a mass claim? is that your point? Or what is? Because other than that your claim would just achieve nothing. No one knows, if you're really a mason (though I believe you here) and no one knows if you're town, since this claiming move could make sense while being scum as well.
Ok, say the town agrees that everyone just opts not to talk to masons. You don't talk to them making them an essentially useless role. How is this beneficial as red? Every mason mass claims and all those who dont who are caught acting are lynched and die as a townie has no reason to hide the fact and only a red does. Again making it hard for mafia to act as mafia are forced to claim mason or not use their role, all claimed masons have greater scruitiny as we all should. In the event all mason's are town, then sure we die, however mafia offs the more useless of town blue roles.
How as mafia does this make sense? It makes me look worse than I did before my claim, and I want people to actively discuss and potentially render my role useless? This is not mafia play at all. Which angle did I miss? The only way as red this looks good for me is "build town cred" at the cost of my entire team that I can see.
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On January 14 2012 04:51 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:45 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On January 14 2012 04:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom. As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc... The very fact you as a red shouldn't choose another red makes it wifom. You could do it in an attempt to give the other person cred in the event you flipped. How does me flipping red or blue give cred to whoever I picked? It gives you no information on them aside from the fact I mason'd them. I can talk to people, not confirm their alignment, or anything. If i say i masoned x and i die and flip, regardless of my alignment you gain no information on that player aside from I talked to them. he's saying that if you weren't a mason and you would booty call on your scum buddy to help you claim, then this could be wifom to save your scum buddy in case you turn red (in this very scenario)
how does this save them? Does my "masoning" give information on who I check? No. You could say its wifom but anyone I claim I have mason'd will get massive scruitiny as they were talking to me. if I die and flip red everyone i talked to will get reanalyzed for the chance they were a red scum buddy.
It is far more likely to only check townies, but as I said in the post you quoted, my alignment on flip tells you nothing about who I mason'd with. as red i could fake mason but recieve no benefit from it, as townie i will never know for sure if i choose is mafia or town.
All you will have is my flip.
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On January 14 2012 04:52 bumatlarge wrote:I don't think people are understanding where BC is coming from, a town mason is more likely to just immediately get rights, but if you look at scum mason; Show nested quote +Mason At the beginning of every cycle, you may send a PM to me detailing who you would like to Mason with during that cycle. You may PM with that person for the full cycle. You may not choose a person you have already Masoned with for the remainder of the game. The Mafia team will have a set number of people to choose as Masons. Mafia with other roles (Roleblocker, Framer, Godfather) can double up on Mason roles. They have to pick them. Do you think mafia right off the bat is going to grab the mason role and start yapping away? I think if BC is mafia, he is doing us a favor. I think masons should claim in thread, the faster the better. It forces mafia into an awkward position, or else they can't claim at all. The only thing is why BC is insisting on running for mayor as well. It doesn't seem necessary. It displays a lot of self-interest which is what I fear. I must work now but I'll check in later.
read my posts after my claim, You will see that although I still want it, I don't actually expect it at this point.
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On January 14 2012 04:53 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom. As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc... It is WIFOM because there is no way of confirming your alignment or that of who you mason regardless of either one of your alignments. Based on what you have said the possible outcomes are You are town and die, the person you mason'd is a null read because you cant know for sure what alignment they are. You are Scum and die, you mason a town -> we think the mason'd is town You are Scum and die, you mason no one or a scum (kind of redundant) claiming to mason said scum team member -> we think mason'd is town If you are town, survive, and the person you mason dies as town, we have a null read on you If you are town, survive, and the person you mason dies as scum, we should have a town read on you If you are scum, survive, and the person you mason dies as town, we have a null read on you If you are scum, survive, and the person you mason dies as scum, we should have a town read on you. If we are to believe what you say and you survive day 1/night 1 as scum mason and you claim a teammate, you become more and more powerful because you can then start masoning townies to further confirm your role.
so? I confirm my role not my alignment. I have openly said it never clears the alignment of who I mason. How is this an issue? You knew this going in. I have a confirmable role not alignment. I said that in my first fucking post on this matter. I put myself in a hotseat all to out the potential butt fucking the mafia would give.
As for your WIFOM shit, i never once said you can confirm people I mason, you proposed that. You created your own argument on something I never said. Town should base their read on someone based on how they act in thread, not on the knowledge of "a mason mason'd this guy so hes legit/scum yo"
You will get a town read on me based on my actions. If i mason a scum, in pms he slips up and he dies and flips red because i outed his slip up I look better than I do now but am no way confirmed. If i do it multiple times maybe.
Where did I say that i am confirmable alignment? where did I say the person i mason is confirmable. My role is nothing else is. I still have to prove my alignment via posts just like everyone else. I am merely opting to fubar the mafia while im at it.
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On January 14 2012 05:01 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:52 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:46 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 04:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote: What you are suggesting is the selfish move. I am a member of the town. One member is not more important than the rest. Am I more experienced than some? yes. However, this move itself is annoying for mafia to deal with. For instance.
Say that we only allow masons to work in pm's who claim publically as an example. If a single person fails to claim and someone gets mason'd they die. In that case you either catch a dumb fucking townie or a mafia. Does town decide to just ignore all mason requests and operate with everything in thread? Are all pm chains going to be placed in thread, etc...
Eliminating a powerful weapon from the mafia is insanely beneficial tactic that benefits the town. So say my jeopardizing my own election fucks the mafias abilities in the grand scheme to corrupt or manipulate townies via pms? Is that not worth it?
Townies should do most of the major posting and plans in thread at all times, so they have no real reason to use pms whereas mafia gets huge gains. As a mason can only talk 1 a player once for 1 cycle in a game, it is more beneficial for them as they can manipulate but don't suffer the long term scrutiny they would get if they talked to someone all game.
so you're saying, you interfering with the mafias powers because you conjure up a mass claim? is that your point? Or what is? Because other than that your claim would just achieve nothing. No one knows, if you're really a mason (though I believe you here) and no one knows if you're town, since this claiming move could make sense while being scum as well. Ok, say the town agrees that everyone just opts not to talk to masons. You don't talk to them making them an essentially useless role. How is this beneficial as red? Every mason mass claims and all those who dont who are caught acting are lynched and die as a townie has no reason to hide the fact and only a red does. Again making it hard for mafia to act as mafia are forced to claim mason or not use their role, all claimed masons have greater scruitiny as we all should. In the event all mason's are town, then sure we die, however mafia offs the more useless of town blue roles. How as mafia does this make sense? It makes me look worse than I did before my claim, and I want people to actively discuss and potentially render my role useless? This is not mafia play at all. Which angle did I miss? The only way as red this looks good for me is "build town cred" at the cost of my entire team that I can see. I am not saying you're scum. I just don't see the connection between your roleclaim and your plan to deal with masons. How couldn't you made up this plan by itself, maybe even as part of your campaign? Sample: Under my mayorship every mason who masons is lynched. Bam.Problem solved. Discussion started. Everything as you wanted. No roleclaim whatsoever. Nice town mayor. Green trees. Happy feet.
except in that case i have to trust people to claim someone masoned them. Instead you could get a townie so sure on someones guilt he claims that person mason'd him, that person dies. He flips non mason then we off said townie. Someone claims x mason'd them and they did we off a townie mason. someone claims x mason'd we off a mafia mason x gets mason'd and doesn't claim period.
townies have a huge track record of screwing up in pms over the years to the point that some players excel at them. In this game, foolishness, myself, incog, zeks, opz, bumatlarge, etc... all have an advantage over players who have played for a shorter time. Ie we are more likely to perform well with the role and hide our intentions if we are red fairly well. Whereas a person we talk to could out their role, not out the mason, etc...
By making the town decide, vocally, now, we force everyone to have an opinion. This gets it out in the open now and in turn gives information on pretty well every player. Getting a huge topic that is polarizing in opinion day 1 gives early early reads on players. Using the role as a way to generate good early reads on players that is also a role that could fubar the town far more sinisterly than say a roleblocker or failed vig shot imo is more useful. If my role instead leads us to getting early reads on the scumteam and solidifying a town win what do i care if i never get to use my mason ability again?
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On January 14 2012 05:09 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I vote we totally ignore this mason thing, and allow them to do what they will. Masons can help both sides, and can backfire for mafia. Additionally, the mafia masons have to worry about maintaining their townieness on two fronts. If the masons people use their intellect, we can make the mafia masons potentially backfire. If their logs conflict at any point, we get a 1 for 1 trade.
Mafia masons have the experience of an entire team to work manipulate someone. Townies only have themselves. The level of experience on one front is far more stacked then the other. By making people discuss what masons are allowed to do, or how they are allowed to act you instead cripple the mafia from the get go.
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On January 14 2012 05:19 kitaman27 wrote: BC, could you give a better explanation of why your claim benefits town? Is it simply to ensure that you are elected and have protection? You state that it is a polarizing topic that will generate discussion, but both scum and town can address the claim from both angles without giving up a whole lot of information about their alignment.
Why didn't you simply decide to run, get elected based on experience and popularity, and play the mason role as normal without public knowledge? To me, it seems unnecessary to open yourself up to a roleblock. The only benefit I can see is create a mason network for organizing blue information, but a day one claim is too early for this to be relevant and I don't see this as a beneficial plan currently with the thread of scum masons.
uh read all my posts, I have said at least once for sure to bum that i want to be elected but don't expect it.
As for why would I want to wander around in pm land with say (for arguments sake) 3 beginners. 1 of those beginners is red getting coached by his team to perform properly, the other 2 fuck up and get themselves lynched, or give out information to a mafia they mason down the line?
The potential of fucking up in pms is far higher in a game where the level of ability in pm land is far higher with some people than others. As for opening myself to a roleblock? if we carpet blanket decide no one responds to masons then boom, a roleblock is useless.
as for a mason network? if i mason you today, i can never talk to you again period. So any network would basically be a 1 day thing. 1 day talking to a specific player is far more useful as red as you can manipulate someone for a day then the risk of being caught is far lower. What would I do as town? fish for info and hope to find a scum? I can do that in thread just as easily as in pms. So making myself only able to do so here isn't a downside. As for both scum and town addressing without giving alot up? I would disagree. If everyone appears townieish on the subject and later someone starts acting somewhat shifty you have a basis of comparison and fubar them for it. Everyone has to take a stance which can fuck them now or later or not at all. The ones who dont get hit at all are the ones who are consistently townie. Could a red fake that? yes but they would have to be really good.
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On January 14 2012 05:33 Kurumi wrote: Have You been to the new Sherlock Holmes? It's good. Anyway, Meapak's reasoning sounds reasonable and I feel stupid for not getting such basic thing. BC, do You think You'd be dead if not elected into office today?
I feel like I might get shot? Mafia has to outweigh the importance of the mason role. Do they risk outing themselves faster by killing me, or keep me alive and hope that i get offed by town?
Do I think I will die, at some point yes, totally depends on how the game rolls.
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On January 14 2012 05:52 VisceraEyes wrote: BC are you for or against a mass-mason claim? This is now the second time I've asked you. Please respond. I repeat, please respond to my query regarding the mass-mason claim.
I am fine with either it, or having town just say "we ignore all pms that arent host pms"
Making every mason accountable / making them useless to prevent manipulation seems the best play at the moment.
making them all claim however is the optimal play, it may out the group of us, but it also prevents mafia from using their ability without being in the spotlight.
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On January 14 2012 06:01 GiygaS wrote: I'm for a mason claim. While mafia would know their identities, it provides transparency for the town as well, and if a mason is under suspicion and he's not dying from mafia, it's more evidence against possible scum.
this is wifom.
mafia could purposely leave someone alive to get offed by town.
The upside to mason claim is only claimed masons can actually mason, ie if 4 people claim and player x points out player y who didnt not claim we lynch 1 vig other if y was not a mason. It means mafia can only use mason if they are willing to be in a spotlight
downside all masons are known and k illable if no red on the list.
The only other option is to carpet bomb deny mason usage, and all known people who mason after the decision get fubar'd.
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On January 14 2012 06:02 ~OpZ~ wrote: I'm still wondering the proper benefits to the mass mason claim. I'm neutral as again, the role seems rather bland for the town this game. Being a mason doesn't confirm you. I'd like to know the general town consensus.
So far I see Sandroba screaming for mass mason claim. Which I suppose all of the whisperers being public knowledge would be a good thing. But I don't wanna feel like sheep. I suppose theres no way around it though, or that its really important. I'm Mason #2. And I mason'd BC. But he won't talk to me. *cries*
to be fair i have no mod confirmation that i was mason'd -_-
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On January 14 2012 06:07 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 06:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 06:02 ~OpZ~ wrote: I'm still wondering the proper benefits to the mass mason claim. I'm neutral as again, the role seems rather bland for the town this game. Being a mason doesn't confirm you. I'd like to know the general town consensus.
So far I see Sandroba screaming for mass mason claim. Which I suppose all of the whisperers being public knowledge would be a good thing. But I don't wanna feel like sheep. I suppose theres no way around it though, or that its really important. I'm Mason #2. And I mason'd BC. But he won't talk to me. *cries*
to be fair i have no mod confirmation that i was mason'd -_- ...To be fair, do you think I would willingly violate the rules? I'm more about enjoying my experience of playing than winning. I'm above cheating at mafia.
fair point.
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On January 14 2012 06:22 Lanaia wrote: I definitely agree with Sandroba in regards to mason claims. Today however... That's the part I'm having trouble with as I don't really condone massclaims in large games this early. (Nor do most others).
I read some people saying to ignore PMs not from host. Is this really a good idea? Sort of defeats the purpose imho.
Also why did the mason mason the mason?
Right now, I'm wanting to vote one of kita, bum and BC or mayor. Of those running, I have the strongest townreads on those three or they are people I would be more willing to trust. Do we want BC superprotected or not? Like, BC, do you still really want to be mayor?
BBIAB, have to nap before work. <3
I always personally enjoy being mayor as I am a high profile target normally. If town wants me there I will get it, if they don't I dont. I realize that my claim is something some people might trust me more or less over, but the purpose of it was not to get elected as well, I think my ability to get elected on my own merit would have been enough. I merely knew that discussing masons day one would lead to me claiming anyway as thus did it to begin with.
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On January 14 2012 06:35 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: also, scum masons are weaker than town masons. Town masons have the potential to catch scum, scum masons are literally worthless unless they manage to mason a player who is bad and they can manipulate. Even then the manipulated player is bad so he won't get listened to when he tries to do the scum's bidding. I have no idea where this impression that scum mason is a strong role came from -_-.
re-read fw's mafia XLII
everyone could mason 2 people and be masoned by whoever mason'd them. The amount of total chaos I created just via talking was so fing huge that mafia kept town basically locked up for the game.
Town masons have the potential to catch scum. Dts have the potential have finding scum. Vigi's have the potential to shooting scum. Jacks could do all 3.
Of the group, masons rely on their ability to read people and read posts to get a good view of someone. Catching someone in pms is not as easy as everyone thinks it is and historically towns have town far more retarded things there than good.
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as a note, heading to work, ill be back in like, 7-8 hours, possibly 9 if we are busy.
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