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On June 08 2011 22:07 Treadmill wrote: Okay, final thoughts: First, I get a bit less precise and coherent towards the end, sorry about that. However it is his earlier posts that I feel are more convincing, anyways, tthe ones before he started to get accused.
So, top 5 reasons that amazingxkcd is mafia: 1. posting a lot but not saying anything, really. 2. getting very defensive on receiving almost any attack 3. the rookie44 lynch 4. straw-manning; lying about the content of other people's arguments 5. the rookie44 lynch again - the first time for how it happened (the timeings of votes, the scurrilous arguments) and the second time for howit ended, how xkcd seemed to just not care about whether rookie was guilty, how he never considered the possibility that he was wrong or that rookie was a blue, and how he completely stopped engaging with the issue after a certain point. I am very agreeable to lynching amazing for the reasons you have provided above. Good work. What do you think about the other people who voted for rookie though: (Jackal58, Kurumi, Senj amazingxkcd, kairo, vain, jimboo, alderan, tdAdonis, Sprungjeezy)?
In particular I still think jimbooo is very clearly mafia and amazingxkcd's defense of him (in part 1 of your mega-post) reaffirms that the mafia are trying to push aside any effort to lynch jimbooo.
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Another person (like Vain) who turned around in their assessment of rookie44 and voted for him was Alderan.
On June 07 2011 05:56 Alderan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote:On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote:You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. Wait so you're saying instead of voting for new players being dumb you suggest us to vote for a player who has never played before on the forums (admittedly so) for suggesting that veteran players toss out potential strategies? Sure it's a LITTLE scummy, but until I see some elaboration on your "very subtle in fishing for blues" I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Initially he disagrees with Jackal and argues that there is no evidence within rookie's post of role fishing - note the severe skepticism in Alderan's post. But then, a little while later, he reverses his opinion after a large number of people vote for rookie.
On June 07 2011 09:55 Alderan wrote: I will be voting for Rookie based on his answers to being called out. While I don't think he is the highest percentage (I'd give him about 10%) chance of hitting a scum, I think that he will do nothing but waste a DT or a future and more costly lynch if he remains in the game.
Honestly there are a couple people I'd like to vote for, but the decision is made infinitely more difficult based on the fact that all the ones in question are likely only in question for being new to the game and very lazy. If we have to hit a town let's make it a lazy scummy looking one.
##Vote Rookie44
First off, this is extremely problematic. Why would you ever vote for someone on a 10% chance. It is very likely that, Alderan knows that rookie clearly is not mafia and uses this statement as an excuse to make a sort of 'I really didn't want to lynch him but I didn't'. He ignores the pushes to lynch other people on the basis that "all the ones in question are likely only in question for being new to the game and very lazy" - but there was significant evidence a number of other people who were also quite lazy and scummy and would "do nothing but waste a DT or a future and more costly lynch if [they] remains in the game."
Considering that Alderan initially found no reason whatsoever to vote for rookie and then gives him only a 10% chance of being mafia, I find this highly highly suspicious.
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On June 09 2011 00:13 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +So far we have learned that iGrok first day has been utterly passive and is following his statement that he will not post anything worthwhile until after day 1, but has instead been using his time to get in our good graces by not stepping on any one's shoes as he wants to be liked by everyone. Currently (at the time of the above posts) I am kind of annoyed by him, but he seems like a very good player (even though he hasn't actually posted anything). I stopped here. So you completely skipped me fighting with Kurumi? Back to reading.
You know what, I'm done. I'm sick of defending myself against ridiculous tunnels. I'm sick of not being given credit for helping out newbies and pointing them towards good town play. And, I'm sick of being accused of being GF every time I defend myself. Cya. The problem I have with you iGrok is that I agree with the assessment that you have been quite passive on the first day. I defended you against some of the accusations made by gtrsrs (which weren't particularly strong at the time), but GGQ's analysis and Sprungjeezy's attacks has opened my eyes to how passive you have been. Obviously you've spent alot of time defending yourself and certain other players, however, you did not accuse a single other person of being mafia with the exception of a "let the DT investigate Kurumi" and also your throwaway vote for Drazerk:
On June 07 2011 03:08 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 02:56 Alderan wrote:On June 07 2011 02:53 iGrok wrote:On June 07 2011 02:43 Vain wrote:On June 07 2011 02:31 iGrok wrote:On June 07 2011 02:11 Vain wrote: Ok, i finally finished reading. Man, sleeping is bad for keeping up with a mafia game.
First off: Kurumi is probably town if he also spammed this much in a previous game where he was scum. I don't know his style very good but he is drawing way too much attention to be a comfortable mafia.
I don't quite understand this. So Kurumi is probably town because he's acting the same way he did when he was mafia before? Euh, i meant town. Jackal stated that when he was town he's just as hard to analyze. Iirc he was not scum the other games Jackal played with him. + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote:On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote:Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. AmazingxkcdI've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it
This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other.
Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post:
Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia.
For town: aidnai, GMarshal
For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13
LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide
So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in.
@ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier.
You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. Kurumi was town in XXXIX. Lynched day one for posting nonsensically for the first half of the day. He has improved significantly from that game believe it or not. He is also still playing in PTP mafia and is a self proclaimed SK. Ok, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, I'm starting to see how Kurumi could be a townie, but I could also see him as a scum who felt the pressure and is trying to change his tune. I still don't thing he should be lynched today. I'm trying to think of who should be, but I really don't know :/ But you agree that it shouldn't be freeloader? Actually, looking back, I'm going to put my vote on Drazerk, for twice voting without saying shit. (He might've posted once or twice, but absolutely no substance, only bandwagonning).
Of course, its very easy to focus on someone who only voted twice - but remember that focus was being thrown other lurker ways as well (Jimbooo). But other than that, iGrok has been very timid in putting his head on the chopping block and accusing someone. Today, after some of the attacks from other people, you accuse gtrsrs who has been conveniently attacking you all game (whom you know is already dead-set against you) and so is a very easy target for you to alienate. Otherwise, you have been generally very afraid to alienate people and very afraid to make solid accusations against other people: especially those that voted for Rookie.
I want to hear your analysis of amazingxkcd and i want to hear your current verdict as to whether he is scum or not.
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@Impervious I've played in a couple games roughly 2 years ago where I was a huge lurker. I started up again on Mafia XXXVIII where I was on the mafia team. And I have read most of the guides posted on this site.
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On June 09 2011 04:21 Senj wrote:Back from lunch and it's time to finish up my thoughts on Jimbooo. Spoiler: Aprudds post calling out Jimbooo for hopping on both the bandwagon votes. Page 30. + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2011 09:59 aprudds wrote:@rookie Are you serious? At least defend yourself man. Your the start of the Jackel tunnel and this is your defense? Step it up man. @ jimbo Hello Jimbo it seems your eager to jump on bandwagons. A BIT TOO eager no? First you jump on the freeloader bandwagon after "patting me on the back", and when the heat turns up a bit you jump off. You disappear for a few hundred posts (200s-500s) with little to no defense and when you pop back with this being your only defense. + Show Spoiler +Sorry for not replying to accusations against me , I really didnt know what to say. My vote was way to early , which was the reason i retracted it. I don't have anything else to say at this point. Next when Jackel starts to put on the heat on rookie you jump on that one as well. With not a single post explaining why. Not even a simple "I agree", or a "that makes sense". Just a simple silent vote. Someone is trying to avoid attention. + Show Spoiler + I accidentally posted my last post without finishing , sorry. Im not sure if freeloader was TRYING to be suspicious with his last post , but after thinking it through I think he is probably just new. That small amount of evidence got a discussion started , but I think people also voted slightly hastily. It looks very suspicious that so many people voted for freeloader right after he was accused. Yes, it looks very suspicious that people voted hastily. I guess you would agree I have ample reason to FOS you then eh? TL;DR (since I know you don't seem to like reading) Neither me nor Jackel had a very good case (my case on freeloader was not even a case at all) and yet you are more than eager to jump on bandwagons. You have almost no defense for your earlier behavior You don't justify your lynches. Your past self would agree that your suspicious You sir get my vote. His last post on Teamliquid was a vote for rookie45 on June 7th. He didn't give any post explaining his reasoning for rookie. Well shit. I was looking forward to digging deeper in to this, but there's nothing left. Where are you Jimbooo?
I've been calling out Jimboo since here, but aside from a brief cameo appearance where he couldn't respond to my questions, he has been nonexistant as compared to his earlier activity which was far more enthusiastic.
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On June 09 2011 04:24 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 04:21 Senj wrote:Back from lunch and it's time to finish up my thoughts on Jimbooo. Spoiler: Aprudds post calling out Jimbooo for hopping on both the bandwagon votes. Page 30. + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2011 09:59 aprudds wrote:@rookie Are you serious? At least defend yourself man. Your the start of the Jackel tunnel and this is your defense? Step it up man. @ jimbo Hello Jimbo it seems your eager to jump on bandwagons. A BIT TOO eager no? First you jump on the freeloader bandwagon after "patting me on the back", and when the heat turns up a bit you jump off. You disappear for a few hundred posts (200s-500s) with little to no defense and when you pop back with this being your only defense. + Show Spoiler +Sorry for not replying to accusations against me , I really didnt know what to say. My vote was way to early , which was the reason i retracted it. I don't have anything else to say at this point. Next when Jackel starts to put on the heat on rookie you jump on that one as well. With not a single post explaining why. Not even a simple "I agree", or a "that makes sense". Just a simple silent vote. Someone is trying to avoid attention. + Show Spoiler + I accidentally posted my last post without finishing , sorry. Im not sure if freeloader was TRYING to be suspicious with his last post , but after thinking it through I think he is probably just new. That small amount of evidence got a discussion started , but I think people also voted slightly hastily. It looks very suspicious that so many people voted for freeloader right after he was accused. Yes, it looks very suspicious that people voted hastily. I guess you would agree I have ample reason to FOS you then eh? TL;DR (since I know you don't seem to like reading) Neither me nor Jackel had a very good case (my case on freeloader was not even a case at all) and yet you are more than eager to jump on bandwagons. You have almost no defense for your earlier behavior You don't justify your lynches. Your past self would agree that your suspicious You sir get my vote. His last post on Teamliquid was a vote for rookie45 on June 7th. He didn't give any post explaining his reasoning for rookie. Well shit. I was looking forward to digging deeper in to this, but there's nothing left. Where are you Jimbooo? Since You're ok with lynching lurking people who vote without any explanation/shitty explanation are You agreeing with me on vigi shooting grush57? I don't think grush57 is scum though. His justifications have been really bad, but at least he is attacking certain people. Look at his accusation of gtrsrs - why would he do that? There was no heat on gtrsrs at that moment whereas mafia members want to slip unnoticed and draw attention by attacking others.
Plus, this post doesn't sound like a mafia response at all:
On June 09 2011 02:01 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:02 Kurumi wrote:On June 09 2011 00:58 grush57 wrote: Alright, I'm going to say that amazingxcd is scum, for he is not responding to any accusations and lynched a medic and had no clear evidence that rookie was scum. This is an amazing case,I can't agree more! Not. You're a terrible poster and horrible scum. You haven't made any case against him Yourself. You're just active lurking and joining on any potential bandwagon. There was clear evidence on rookie44:blue fishing,though it can go either way(confused blue or scum). People who backed off and defended rookie44 hardcore are most likely scum. Treadmill is scum. iGrok is highly likely the GF. Fine, Ill just lurk like the other 30 people and jump on bandwagons like the other 30 people, otherwise every time I try to say something everybody else tries to jump on me.
Sounds to me alot more like a bored green than a mafia trying to cover their tracks.
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On June 09 2011 13:10 amazingxkcd wrote:Sorry Guys, I will finish your analysis tomorrow, been working on this for the last 8 hours. [*]Kairo + Show Spoiler +[*] omgCRAZY + Show Spoiler +[*] gtrsrs + Show Spoiler +[*] iGrok + Show Spoiler +[*] tdAdonis + Show Spoiler +[*] aprudds + Show Spoiler +Finals ThoughtsI have listed my reasoning for most of the players, but because of the time involved in doing I will finish the last few people, though they know who they are. I am 100% confident that my analysis is spot on and 100% confident that people who read this will agree with me. Only you mafia scum have anything to fear from reading. Because of this report, I have decided my vote and I will do a TL:DR version of this report as well soon ##:Jackal58 [/list][/SPOILER]
Did you post up your thoughts for these people yet amazingxkcd? I would really like to hear your thoughts on iGrok considering that he is the other person of extreme suspicion at the moment.
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On June 08 2011 21:42 iGrok wrote: Haven't read it yet, but I'm going to go ahead and nominate Treadmill for the "Best Rookie (no pun intended) Award".
Hats off to you, doing analysis like a boss, standing up for what you think, and making really good reads on people (like the aforementioned Rookie). Funny, this is the only time that iGrok ever engages the analysis being done on amazingxkcd. Considering that he spent quite a large period of time answering arguments against himself and implies in this post that he will read Treadmill's analysis, I feel that iGrok is unwilling to reveal his stance at all on the amazingxkcd issue. I want to specifically hear from iGrok whether amazingxkcd is scum or not on the basis of the evidence brought up by Treadmill and other posters.
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On June 10 2011 02:20 Alderan wrote: Here is kind of a new line of thinking let's see what everyone thinks.
I have a feeling that it is safe to assume that either iGork or Jackal is scum (based on xkcd's huge analysis above I'm going to go with iGork).
I think we keep the vote on xkcd for the simple fact that the case against Jackal is much stronger than some people give it credit for. Let's give Jackal/iGork one more day to slip up. Whats the downside? Sure if either is maf they are probably GF, but it's not like they have inherent kp, and framing is not going to be the biggest deal because no one is going to claim after night 2 (or shouldn't).
Moral of the story: Keep votes on xkcd and don't over look Jackal while tunneling iGork . Let's wait for one of them to make a mistake. Hey Alderan, since you are here right now (I hope), would you mind some of the accusations I made of you here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=40#785 ?
I am particularly curious as to your 180 degree switch from opposing the rookie lynch to supporting it. Vain also performed a similar switch-around but I am prepared to cut you a bit more slack considering your recent activity and your accusations of xkcd (compared to Vain's lack thereof).
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On June 10 2011 02:44 Sprungjeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:23 teamsolid wrote:On June 10 2011 01:28 Sprungjeezy wrote: Honestly, I don't understand why people are reading Treadmills and XCD's posts. While its important to hear their defense, they aren't defending themselves, but DISTRACTING you. - haven't read 48 yet. I've been reading http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147475 for some insight into reading scum tells. Basically what Ver shows us is that the most important theme among mafia posts is looking like they're contributing, but not actually say anything. Basically, a lot of empty words without performing any real analysis, not suggesting any targets and not coming to any conclusions. KXCD's post was actually the exact opposite of that. He actually analyzed players pretty deeply and used plenty of reasoning in his posts if you read it carefully. I haven't read all of it yet, but what I have read so far has made sense to me at least when I was reading it, and he gave strong conclusions about whether people were town or mafia. It's basically as Pro-Town as you can possibly get. That bolded part is very important in my case against iGrok, and would like everyone to read it and then my analysis on iGrok. As for XCD's analysis, I take it with less than a grain of salt as he has a lot of votes himself and would probably say anything to get people to not vote for him, yet instead of defending himself he throws blame other places. I feel it is important to stay focused on iGrok and not be distracted. I agree that we shouldn't stop discussion, but right now the votes are pretty split between iGrok and XCD and I am really pushing to get iGrok lynched today and XCD (or Jackal or Treadmill) tomorrow, but I feel it is most vital for iGrok tonight and right now posts from both Treadmill and XCD have been to get our attention shifted from iGrok while iGrok ceases to post in an attempt to "play dead so the bear walks away". Exactly. iGrok hasn't been really pushing for lynching for anyone - preferring to remain in the background. In day 1, he gives a throwaway lynch target that he knows won't be lynched considering the evidence against other players like Jimbooo and other lurkers as well. He refuses to be drawn into the rookie debate - and on day 2 - very noticeably, he praises Treadmill for his analysis, but refuses to pass judgment on xkcd's case.
iGrok doesn't want to be forced to make a judgment because he knows that he would be caught in an awkward position if he were to do so and so has disappeared.
Another person that i heavily suspect now is Vain for the reasons outlined by GGQ and also my analysis here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=39#766 and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=39#773
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@Vain. I'm not particularly concerned about your defense of Lafali. My question regards your vote for rookie on day1.
You first post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=28#554 concluding that Jackal's analysis of rookie was not sufficient. I'm cutting this out of your post here:
On June 07 2011 07:39 Vain wrote: It was true that he was asking for information but proposing that we should have a strategy doesn't really ring a scum bell for me.
Then later, you switch your vote to rookie roughly an hour later saying:
On June 07 2011 08:28 Vain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 08:23 Impervious wrote:Alright, I'm back, and I've read the last ~10 pages to try to get myself up to date. I've probably missed something, but I think I have a good idea on what's going on so far. On June 07 2011 04:16 Jackal58 wrote: Impervious???? Bah. Obviouscum. I'll be keeping an eye on you. Scum. Btw - GREEN AND YELLOW!!!!! Ok, now, from what I've seen, I think Jackal's plan is best. I've seen a bunch of "newbie" posts, but that one seriously hinted at finding blues, as well as finding flaws in previously used investigative strategies. While it may be a "newbie" type post, it also answers a question I ask myself whenever I'm looking at someone - Are they acting in the best interest of the town? My gut feeling is "no", even though he has so few posts. And, rather than pick on lurkers for the sake of picking on lurkers (since they'll likely be modkilled at some point), I think our best move at the moment is to lynch rookie44. Ok, i guess you're right. His posts didn't really contribute and now with the knowledge of that there is a thread for mafia alone freeloader isn't really a viable option too. So with that my vote will also be on Rookie for the sake of voting. 4 hours remaining but i'm going to bed so my vote is final. Goodnight
Only roughly an hour passed between these two posts. During this period, rookie had not posted and no one had brought up any new reasons as to why to vote for rookie.Yet you vote for rookie on the basis that: "His posts didn't really contribute and now with the knowledge of that there is a thread for mafia alone freeloader isn't really a viable option too. " That in no way is a justification to vote to lynch someone. Simply because they didn't contribute should not justify a vote and considering that there were other candidates with significant evidence against them (which you seem to ignore), it seems highly suspicious that you jump right to rookie's vote when you earlier argued that he "didn't ring your scum bell".
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On June 10 2011 10:14 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 10:03 Jackal58 wrote:Lulz. Since I am going to go to bed shortly and I have to vote and I really don't think Amazingzidwxzyrhgbdss whatever is scum. And iGrok would rage quit if I voted for him. I'm voting for Aril because the little prick just voted for me twice and spelled my name wrong each time. With nary a word in here. Wow guys.. this is one of the scummiest posts I've ever seen. Wishy-washy, apologetic, and leading no where. Ends off with a random useless vote. I'd say this post is far more incriminating than anything Amazing or iGrok have posted so far. Combined with analysis from Amazing (whom I believe is likely DT), I'm switching my vote to Jackal. iGrok just seems disgruntled now, he's still on the list for potential GFs, but I still think it's nowhere near solid. I agree. But it seems to implicate both players (iGrok and Amazingxkcd) since he could easily vote for either regardless of his alignment. Considering that most people support lynching either candidate, he could have thrown his vote to either side without attracting suspicion at all.
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On June 10 2011 10:20 Jackal58 wrote: I voted for Aril to make a point. You guys are smarter than a toothbrush. Figure it out. His posts consist of: a defense of freeloader.
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EBWDP His posts consist of a defense of freeloader. A "sorry I can't vote now" (votes for Kurumi). A really weird description of his scripting tool. And a vote for you. Very scummy.
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I'm assuming that quite a few people will be posting their "in case I die thoughts". I will be doing the same right now by declaring my extreme suspicion for Vain. Looking at his previous game history, he played in Slightly Normal Mini Mafia I. In this game, he was the doctor and aided greatly in the town's victory. Notice that in that game, although he was accused of lurking and was a heavy lynch target throughout the day, he responded to the pressure placed upon him very well and helped the town win.
In that game, he posted without fear, pointing out logical fallacies in other people's arguments, making witty comments (often one-liners), and accusing other players freely. This game, however, he is far more cautious and reticent in all of his posts. Note that he only ever speaks about the players most hotly debated at the moment and only throws small support behind lynching one of the candidates. In fact, the only matter which he seems to strongly support is iGrok's innocence.
The first point of suspicion against him is here: + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2011 03:08 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 02:56 Alderan wrote:On June 07 2011 02:53 iGrok wrote:On June 07 2011 02:43 Vain wrote:On June 07 2011 02:31 iGrok wrote:On June 07 2011 02:11 Vain wrote: Ok, i finally finished reading. Man, sleeping is bad for keeping up with a mafia game.
First off: Kurumi is probably town if he also spammed this much in a previous game where he was scum. I don't know his style very good but he is drawing way too much attention to be a comfortable mafia.
I don't quite understand this. So Kurumi is probably town because he's acting the same way he did when he was mafia before? Euh, i meant town. Jackal stated that when he was town he's just as hard to analyze. Iirc he was not scum the other games Jackal played with him. + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote:On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote:Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. AmazingxkcdI've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it
This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other.
Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post:
Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia.
For town: aidnai, GMarshal
For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13
LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide
So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in.
@ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier.
You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. Kurumi was town in XXXIX. Lynched day one for posting nonsensically for the first half of the day. He has improved significantly from that game believe it or not. He is also still playing in PTP mafia and is a self proclaimed SK. Ok, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, I'm starting to see how Kurumi could be a townie, but I could also see him as a scum who felt the pressure and is trying to change his tune. I still don't thing he should be lynched today. I'm trying to think of who should be, but I really don't know :/ But you agree that it shouldn't be freeloader? Yeah. Here's my "Don't Lynch" list (in no particular order): Me ^^ Jackal58 Vain GGQ Kurumi Treadmill 35spike1 CrJninja Xedat aprudds Actually, looking back, I'm going to put my vote on Drazerk, for twice voting without saying shit. (He might've posted once or twice, but absolutely no substance, only bandwagonning). iGrok puts him on the top of his don't lynch list yet Vain had not been too particularly active in that period.
My second point of suspicion (and my strongest one) is my earlier post against him: + Show Spoiler +On June 10 2011 10:04 TranceStorm wrote:@Vain. I'm not particularly concerned about your defense of Lafali. My question regards your vote for rookie on day1. You first post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=28#554 concluding that Jackal's analysis of rookie was not sufficient. I'm cutting this out of your post here: Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 07:39 Vain wrote: It was true that he was asking for information but proposing that we should have a strategy doesn't really ring a scum bell for me. Then later, you switch your vote to rookie roughly an hour later saying: Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 08:28 Vain wrote:On June 07 2011 08:23 Impervious wrote:Alright, I'm back, and I've read the last ~10 pages to try to get myself up to date. I've probably missed something, but I think I have a good idea on what's going on so far. On June 07 2011 04:16 Jackal58 wrote: Impervious???? Bah. Obviouscum. I'll be keeping an eye on you. Scum. Btw - GREEN AND YELLOW!!!!! Ok, now, from what I've seen, I think Jackal's plan is best. I've seen a bunch of "newbie" posts, but that one seriously hinted at finding blues, as well as finding flaws in previously used investigative strategies. While it may be a "newbie" type post, it also answers a question I ask myself whenever I'm looking at someone - Are they acting in the best interest of the town? My gut feeling is "no", even though he has so few posts. And, rather than pick on lurkers for the sake of picking on lurkers (since they'll likely be modkilled at some point), I think our best move at the moment is to lynch rookie44. Ok, i guess you're right. His posts didn't really contribute and now with the knowledge of that there is a thread for mafia alone freeloader isn't really a viable option too. So with that my vote will also be on Rookie for the sake of voting. 4 hours remaining but i'm going to bed so my vote is final. Goodnight Only roughly an hour passed between these two posts. During this period, rookie had not posted and no one had brought up any new reasons as to why to vote for rookie.Yet you vote for rookie on the basis that: "His posts didn't really contribute and now with the knowledge of that there is a thread for mafia alone freeloader isn't really a viable option too. " That in no way is a justification to vote to lynch someone. Simply because they didn't contribute should not justify a vote and considering that there were other candidates with significant evidence against them (which you seem to ignore), it seems highly suspicious that you jump right to rookie's vote when you earlier argued that he "didn't ring your scum bell". I had done this earlier in the thread where I had questioned him regarding why he voted for rookie when he had declared an hour before that rookie wasn't particularly suspicious. His reasoning in the thread was that he "hadn't contributed anything at all", which is a poor reason to lynch anyone. He has still yet to explain his reasoning behind the rookie lynch and I find that damning.
The third point comes from this quote, which Vain belatedly posts near the end of yesterday's lynch: + Show Spoiler +On June 10 2011 09:43 Vain wrote: So basing off this i would believe very strongly Kurumi is town. There was no real reason for him to attack lafali this hard on day one. The plan could have easily backfired. Also i'm not sure about iGrock now but i can't get one thing out of my head. Remember the whiteboard iGrok posted? why the fuck would you have such a thing if you are mafia? I just can't believe he just painted arrows that had to be right just to give us an insurance he was town(otherwise hats off to you iGrok). Furthermore the list pleads for Xedat for him emphasizing kurumi thought lafali was scum. And as last this puts a bit of suspicion on Trancestorm for diverting to jimboo. you may conclude some other things from the list but it gets more and more speculation on the way(was it all setup or not). Now last but not least my vote goes to jackal. I believe iGrok or jackal have to be scum. There has to be at least one experienced player in the mafia camp in my opinion. I have my doubts about iGrok but i feel jackal has more things against him(saving lafali) so my vote will go with him. You make your own choice, it would be very bad if we bandwagoned in a short time again.
This post is enormously confusing, but boils down to two arguments. Vain doesn't think iGrok is mafia because he drew up those diagrams (a very weak argument), and Jackal is probably mafia because he saved lafali (a valid one). Yet note the hesitancy in this post. Vain votes Jackal on the basis that he is a better candidate than iGrok rather than on the basis that he really thinks Jackal is the mafia. Vain's carefulness is really different from his free-posting behavior in his previous game which makes me think that he is definitely mafia.
It would be extremely prudent to pressure Vain on his vote on rookie and on his reasoning for his continuous defense of iGrok throughout the game.
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Jumping back into this thread here and reading over some of the discussion that occurred during the day, my vote is going for Vain, given the analysis I provided before the day started.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 11 2011 12:11 TranceStorm wrote:I'm assuming that quite a few people will be posting their "in case I die thoughts". I will be doing the same right now by declaring my extreme suspicion for Vain. Looking at his previous game history, he played in Slightly Normal Mini Mafia I. In this game, he was the doctor and aided greatly in the town's victory. Notice that in that game, although he was accused of lurking and was a heavy lynch target throughout the day, he responded to the pressure placed upon him very well and helped the town win. In that game, he posted without fear, pointing out logical fallacies in other people's arguments, making witty comments (often one-liners), and accusing other players freely. This game, however, he is far more cautious and reticent in all of his posts. Note that he only ever speaks about the players most hotly debated at the moment and only throws small support behind lynching one of the candidates. In fact, the only matter which he seems to strongly support is iGrok's innocence. The first point of suspicion against him is here: + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2011 03:08 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 02:56 Alderan wrote:On June 07 2011 02:53 iGrok wrote:On June 07 2011 02:43 Vain wrote:On June 07 2011 02:31 iGrok wrote:On June 07 2011 02:11 Vain wrote: Ok, i finally finished reading. Man, sleeping is bad for keeping up with a mafia game.
First off: Kurumi is probably town if he also spammed this much in a previous game where he was scum. I don't know his style very good but he is drawing way too much attention to be a comfortable mafia.
I don't quite understand this. So Kurumi is probably town because he's acting the same way he did when he was mafia before? Euh, i meant town. Jackal stated that when he was town he's just as hard to analyze. Iirc he was not scum the other games Jackal played with him. + Show Spoiler +On June 07 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote:On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote:Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. AmazingxkcdI've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it
This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other.
Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post:
Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia.
For town: aidnai, GMarshal
For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13
LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide
So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in.
@ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier.
You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. Kurumi was town in XXXIX. Lynched day one for posting nonsensically for the first half of the day. He has improved significantly from that game believe it or not. He is also still playing in PTP mafia and is a self proclaimed SK. Ok, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, I'm starting to see how Kurumi could be a townie, but I could also see him as a scum who felt the pressure and is trying to change his tune. I still don't thing he should be lynched today. I'm trying to think of who should be, but I really don't know :/ But you agree that it shouldn't be freeloader? Yeah. Here's my "Don't Lynch" list (in no particular order): Me ^^ Jackal58 Vain GGQ Kurumi Treadmill 35spike1 CrJninja Xedat aprudds Actually, looking back, I'm going to put my vote on Drazerk, for twice voting without saying shit. (He might've posted once or twice, but absolutely no substance, only bandwagonning). iGrok puts him on the top of his don't lynch list yet Vain had not been too particularly active in that period. My second point of suspicion (and my strongest one) is my earlier post against him: + Show Spoiler +On June 10 2011 10:04 TranceStorm wrote:@Vain. I'm not particularly concerned about your defense of Lafali. My question regards your vote for rookie on day1. You first post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=28#554 concluding that Jackal's analysis of rookie was not sufficient. I'm cutting this out of your post here: Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 07:39 Vain wrote: It was true that he was asking for information but proposing that we should have a strategy doesn't really ring a scum bell for me. Then later, you switch your vote to rookie roughly an hour later saying: Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 08:28 Vain wrote:On June 07 2011 08:23 Impervious wrote:Alright, I'm back, and I've read the last ~10 pages to try to get myself up to date. I've probably missed something, but I think I have a good idea on what's going on so far. On June 07 2011 04:16 Jackal58 wrote: Impervious???? Bah. Obviouscum. I'll be keeping an eye on you. Scum. Btw - GREEN AND YELLOW!!!!! Ok, now, from what I've seen, I think Jackal's plan is best. I've seen a bunch of "newbie" posts, but that one seriously hinted at finding blues, as well as finding flaws in previously used investigative strategies. While it may be a "newbie" type post, it also answers a question I ask myself whenever I'm looking at someone - Are they acting in the best interest of the town? My gut feeling is "no", even though he has so few posts. And, rather than pick on lurkers for the sake of picking on lurkers (since they'll likely be modkilled at some point), I think our best move at the moment is to lynch rookie44. Ok, i guess you're right. His posts didn't really contribute and now with the knowledge of that there is a thread for mafia alone freeloader isn't really a viable option too. So with that my vote will also be on Rookie for the sake of voting. 4 hours remaining but i'm going to bed so my vote is final. Goodnight Only roughly an hour passed between these two posts. During this period, rookie had not posted and no one had brought up any new reasons as to why to vote for rookie.Yet you vote for rookie on the basis that: "His posts didn't really contribute and now with the knowledge of that there is a thread for mafia alone freeloader isn't really a viable option too. " That in no way is a justification to vote to lynch someone. Simply because they didn't contribute should not justify a vote and considering that there were other candidates with significant evidence against them (which you seem to ignore), it seems highly suspicious that you jump right to rookie's vote when you earlier argued that he "didn't ring your scum bell". I had done this earlier in the thread where I had questioned him regarding why he voted for rookie when he had declared an hour before that rookie wasn't particularly suspicious. His reasoning in the thread was that he "hadn't contributed anything at all", which is a poor reason to lynch anyone. He has still yet to explain his reasoning behind the rookie lynch and I find that damning. The third point comes from this quote, which Vain belatedly posts near the end of yesterday's lynch: + Show Spoiler +On June 10 2011 09:43 Vain wrote: So basing off this i would believe very strongly Kurumi is town. There was no real reason for him to attack lafali this hard on day one. The plan could have easily backfired. Also i'm not sure about iGrock now but i can't get one thing out of my head. Remember the whiteboard iGrok posted? why the fuck would you have such a thing if you are mafia? I just can't believe he just painted arrows that had to be right just to give us an insurance he was town(otherwise hats off to you iGrok). Furthermore the list pleads for Xedat for him emphasizing kurumi thought lafali was scum. And as last this puts a bit of suspicion on Trancestorm for diverting to jimboo. you may conclude some other things from the list but it gets more and more speculation on the way(was it all setup or not). Now last but not least my vote goes to jackal. I believe iGrok or jackal have to be scum. There has to be at least one experienced player in the mafia camp in my opinion. I have my doubts about iGrok but i feel jackal has more things against him(saving lafali) so my vote will go with him. You make your own choice, it would be very bad if we bandwagoned in a short time again.
This post is enormously confusing, but boils down to two arguments. Vain doesn't think iGrok is mafia because he drew up those diagrams (a very weak argument), and Jackal is probably mafia because he saved lafali (a valid one). Yet note the hesitancy in this post. Vain votes Jackal on the basis that he is a better candidate than iGrok rather than on the basis that he really thinks Jackal is the mafia. Vain's carefulness is really different from his free-posting behavior in his previous game which makes me think that he is definitely mafia. It would be extremely prudent to pressure Vain on his vote on rookie and on his reasoning for his continuous defense of iGrok throughout the game. Vain's response has even further made me suspect that he is definitely mafia. He posts this just a page back justifying his vote for grush: + Show Spoiler +On June 13 2011 05:40 Vain wrote: I would also go for grush at this time. I'm reading the thread again and i can't find much more than 2 line posts. But this could of course be his way of playing mafia so look at the facts.
Voted for freeloader and unvote Did not vote on Rookie44(gtrsrs) Voted for amazingxkcd
His reasoning for the votes is also a bit off. A few quotes now and then wouldn't hurt.
Oh and btw gtrsrs. why do you start a post with "man treadmill your 100% scum scum scum scum fucking scum. And then: oh well don't mind that we'll just lynch Vain and grush57. And what the fuck. Derailing the thread with telling we probably have 7 scum? Really? That's not town play in my book. I would have labeled that as scum play if i weren't convinced you were town.
i will post now before kurumi goes flying mad with his lurker obsession. We have still 27 people in the game where a lot of people don't post that well thought out post Note that on the topic of grush he says "I'm reading the thread again and i can't find much more than 2 line posts". Here he reveals that he has been reading the thread, and has been looking at specifically what grush has done. But what about the accusations of himself? Vain has clearly indicated that he has read the thread and the accusations against himself but refuses to answer them. Given that as I have noted before, Vain has defended himself well in previous games, but has given no effort to doing so.
One of the stumbling blocks to the case that Vain is mafia is the fact that he voted for Jackal in the last lynch when he could have easily voted for amazingxkcd. But I think that both Aril and Vain voted for Jackal during this period precisely because they (wrongly) saw that amazingxkcd was leading the lynch at the moment (teamsolid was previously voting for amazingxkcd). Given that they knew that amazing was not mafia, it was convenient for them to vote for Jackal (after all, we can't expect all of the mafia voters to be in the same voting block).
This at least is my theory. Feel free to argue with me here, but I will be voting for Vain because his behavior and continued dodging of accusations outweighs his voting behavior for me.
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On June 13 2011 08:41 Vain wrote:Ok, i went trough grush57 posts again. Most of them are just reactions or agreements of people so i am not going to post those. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 06:55 grush57 wrote:On June 09 2011 06:40 supersoft wrote:I going to vote for iGrok now. I believe he's scum. For several reasons. First reason: I thought about who might be the person who leads the mafia - whether he's also GF or not doesn't matter for me right now. To my mind came 3 persons who dominated the scene at the first day: Kurumi, Jackal and iGrok. Now to the differences between these three players: Kurumi is very aggressive and gets into everyones face every time he posts something. He was against the freeloaderlynch and sceptical about the rookielynch. But he proposed several alternativelynches. Jackal was also against the freeloaderlynch, and he proposed to lynch rookie instead. No good move if you are GF/mafia if you know that freeloader also is townie... Why should you draw votes from a townie to another townie... That's just stupid... iGrok just posted some informations etc. and he asked for a DT-check on Kurumi. ___________________________ iGrok was the most passive player out of the three. Of course he was! as scum he knew exactly that rookie and freeloader were innocent, so he could easily sit back and watch the town lynch each other. He just hadn't do anything. In fact it would have been stupid to really push for a Kurumilynch. He just tried to make him look suspicious, to draw attention from himself: Of course a DT check on Kurumi would be negative. But no problem, iGrok still could say that Kurumi is the GF. Second reasonThis shit convinced me + Show Spoiler +On June 08 2011 13:03 GGQ wrote:GGQ's big post of epicness in case he dies tonight (which I've just realised I dont have enough time to make as long as I want Trust me that it's smart and good: No one undertook the exercise I set of looking at who defended and attacked lafali and why. I'm very disappointed, guys. You all get 0/2 on your homework for today. The veteran players are all going to be dead before this game is nearly over, and you guys need to practice working on how to actually find scum, not just accuse people based on neutral tells. Keep your heads up, don't get discouraged. Look at contradictions in talk and behavior. Look at people who are skating by with posts that just repeat previous content. These are the scummy players. The point was to lead you to Kurumi and iGrok above everyone else. Kurumi attacks lafali for his bandwagon vote bringing nothing new to the table on freeloader. There was absolutely no reason for him to throw scum on lafali so early in the game if he's mafia. Plus his aggressiveness and balls-out attitude are more inline with a green than anything else. Kurumi is most likely town. iGrok defends lafali as probably newb town. He's the only one who defends lafali straight out, but Vain, aprudds, monsterDrakar, and Senj also soft-defend him. I'm not saying they are all scum, but it's a great place to look for scum (dts take note! vigis save your shots). At this point in time I think iGrok is almost certainly the godfather of the mafia team (it could be jackal as well but his behavior doesn't fit the role as well, and seems more in line with the town play I've seen from him). iGrok defends lafali after Kurumi calls him out and votes for him, while before this accusation he posted that everyone who had voted so far ( which included lafali) should be under suspicion. Contradiction. iGrok has also been working to get into a town-leadership and thread-presence position all game, something the godfather always tries to do. iGrok also got way too defensive after being attacked and accused. Other suspicious people to me: Vain, partly for defending lafali, partly for advocating the lynch on freeloader for 'information' blehhhhh I already posted about that, and partly because iGrok listed him as a skilled vet with him, me and jackal when I think he's quite new and I havent seen anything particularly good from him. iGrok probably wanted another mafia on that list, though. Of course jimbooo whom I voted Day 1, for reasons already stated by multiple players. Others are monsterDrakar and Senj. xkcd has decreased on my scum meter lately but isn't totally clear. So, he is the most passive, which could also mean he is a blue and then later in another post, you try to get other people to bandwagon with You. Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue, but u do have good analysis of those players. Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum! Grush57 is calling igrok scum. This was irr before he was in alot of danger so this pleads for him Read this again. Grush isn't calling igrok scum, he's defending him given that he's responding to an attack on iGrok and saying that "which could also mean he is a blue". Then he says "Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue", and concludes by articulating that isn't actually defending iGrok "Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum!", when he actually is.
In the mean time, would you mind responding to the numerous accusations against yourself? You seem to be selectively responding to accusations against grush instead of yourself.
Also, given that the day vote is ending soon, pick out a candidate and give good reasons for voting for them, I haven't seen you strongly support a lynch all game. I've only seen you defend iGrok and grush, so please, I would love for you to make a vote and back it up now.
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On June 13 2011 09:02 Vain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 08:53 TranceStorm wrote:On June 13 2011 08:41 Vain wrote:Ok, i went trough grush57 posts again. Most of them are just reactions or agreements of people so i am not going to post those. On June 09 2011 06:55 grush57 wrote:On June 09 2011 06:40 supersoft wrote:I going to vote for iGrok now. I believe he's scum. For several reasons. First reason: I thought about who might be the person who leads the mafia - whether he's also GF or not doesn't matter for me right now. To my mind came 3 persons who dominated the scene at the first day: Kurumi, Jackal and iGrok. Now to the differences between these three players: Kurumi is very aggressive and gets into everyones face every time he posts something. He was against the freeloaderlynch and sceptical about the rookielynch. But he proposed several alternativelynches. Jackal was also against the freeloaderlynch, and he proposed to lynch rookie instead. No good move if you are GF/mafia if you know that freeloader also is townie... Why should you draw votes from a townie to another townie... That's just stupid... iGrok just posted some informations etc. and he asked for a DT-check on Kurumi. ___________________________ iGrok was the most passive player out of the three. Of course he was! as scum he knew exactly that rookie and freeloader were innocent, so he could easily sit back and watch the town lynch each other. He just hadn't do anything. In fact it would have been stupid to really push for a Kurumilynch. He just tried to make him look suspicious, to draw attention from himself: Of course a DT check on Kurumi would be negative. But no problem, iGrok still could say that Kurumi is the GF. Second reasonThis shit convinced me + Show Spoiler +On June 08 2011 13:03 GGQ wrote:GGQ's big post of epicness in case he dies tonight (which I've just realised I dont have enough time to make as long as I want Trust me that it's smart and good: No one undertook the exercise I set of looking at who defended and attacked lafali and why. I'm very disappointed, guys. You all get 0/2 on your homework for today. The veteran players are all going to be dead before this game is nearly over, and you guys need to practice working on how to actually find scum, not just accuse people based on neutral tells. Keep your heads up, don't get discouraged. Look at contradictions in talk and behavior. Look at people who are skating by with posts that just repeat previous content. These are the scummy players. The point was to lead you to Kurumi and iGrok above everyone else. Kurumi attacks lafali for his bandwagon vote bringing nothing new to the table on freeloader. There was absolutely no reason for him to throw scum on lafali so early in the game if he's mafia. Plus his aggressiveness and balls-out attitude are more inline with a green than anything else. Kurumi is most likely town. iGrok defends lafali as probably newb town. He's the only one who defends lafali straight out, but Vain, aprudds, monsterDrakar, and Senj also soft-defend him. I'm not saying they are all scum, but it's a great place to look for scum (dts take note! vigis save your shots). At this point in time I think iGrok is almost certainly the godfather of the mafia team (it could be jackal as well but his behavior doesn't fit the role as well, and seems more in line with the town play I've seen from him). iGrok defends lafali after Kurumi calls him out and votes for him, while before this accusation he posted that everyone who had voted so far ( which included lafali) should be under suspicion. Contradiction. iGrok has also been working to get into a town-leadership and thread-presence position all game, something the godfather always tries to do. iGrok also got way too defensive after being attacked and accused. Other suspicious people to me: Vain, partly for defending lafali, partly for advocating the lynch on freeloader for 'information' blehhhhh I already posted about that, and partly because iGrok listed him as a skilled vet with him, me and jackal when I think he's quite new and I havent seen anything particularly good from him. iGrok probably wanted another mafia on that list, though. Of course jimbooo whom I voted Day 1, for reasons already stated by multiple players. Others are monsterDrakar and Senj. xkcd has decreased on my scum meter lately but isn't totally clear. So, he is the most passive, which could also mean he is a blue and then later in another post, you try to get other people to bandwagon with You. Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue, but u do have good analysis of those players. Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum! Grush57 is calling igrok scum. This was irr before he was in alot of danger so this pleads for him Read this again. Grush isn't calling igrok scum, he's defending him given that he's responding to an attack on iGrok and saying that "which could also mean he is a blue". Then he says "Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue", and concludes by articulating that isn't actually defending iGrok "Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum!", when he actually is. In the mean time, would you mind responding to the numerous accusations against yourself? You seem to be selectively responding to accusations against grush instead of yourself. Also, given that the day vote is ending soon, pick out a candidate and give good reasons for voting for them, I haven't seen you strongly support a lynch all game. I've only seen you defend iGrok and grush, so please, I would love for you to make a vote and back it up now. Several pages later he changed his mind and agreed he wasn't blue either. I'll vote when ill see fit and don't make it seem there have been strong cases against any player yet. We lynched 1.5 times a blue so you go ahead and make a very strong case on a scum. But if it turns out to be a blue you stop playing this game forever ok? Btw, i also thought voting for jackal while igrock was alsmost about to be lynched was a huge scumtell. but i just really hoped you didn't notice Please link me to where grush ever accused iGrok of being mafia (or in fact agreed that iGrok was not blue). In fact a quick search of grush's posts with reference to iGrok (hooray for search function!) reveals that he always defending iGrok and suspicious of the people who bandwagon against iGrok.
In the meantime, I notice how you haven't responded to the accusations against yourself yet again, please do so.
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On June 13 2011 09:22 Vain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 09:10 TranceStorm wrote:On June 13 2011 09:02 Vain wrote:On June 13 2011 08:53 TranceStorm wrote:On June 13 2011 08:41 Vain wrote:Ok, i went trough grush57 posts again. Most of them are just reactions or agreements of people so i am not going to post those. On June 09 2011 06:55 grush57 wrote:On June 09 2011 06:40 supersoft wrote:I going to vote for iGrok now. I believe he's scum. For several reasons. First reason: I thought about who might be the person who leads the mafia - whether he's also GF or not doesn't matter for me right now. To my mind came 3 persons who dominated the scene at the first day: Kurumi, Jackal and iGrok. Now to the differences between these three players: Kurumi is very aggressive and gets into everyones face every time he posts something. He was against the freeloaderlynch and sceptical about the rookielynch. But he proposed several alternativelynches. Jackal was also against the freeloaderlynch, and he proposed to lynch rookie instead. No good move if you are GF/mafia if you know that freeloader also is townie... Why should you draw votes from a townie to another townie... That's just stupid... iGrok just posted some informations etc. and he asked for a DT-check on Kurumi. ___________________________ iGrok was the most passive player out of the three. Of course he was! as scum he knew exactly that rookie and freeloader were innocent, so he could easily sit back and watch the town lynch each other. He just hadn't do anything. In fact it would have been stupid to really push for a Kurumilynch. He just tried to make him look suspicious, to draw attention from himself: Of course a DT check on Kurumi would be negative. But no problem, iGrok still could say that Kurumi is the GF. Second reasonThis shit convinced me + Show Spoiler +On June 08 2011 13:03 GGQ wrote:GGQ's big post of epicness in case he dies tonight (which I've just realised I dont have enough time to make as long as I want Trust me that it's smart and good: No one undertook the exercise I set of looking at who defended and attacked lafali and why. I'm very disappointed, guys. You all get 0/2 on your homework for today. The veteran players are all going to be dead before this game is nearly over, and you guys need to practice working on how to actually find scum, not just accuse people based on neutral tells. Keep your heads up, don't get discouraged. Look at contradictions in talk and behavior. Look at people who are skating by with posts that just repeat previous content. These are the scummy players. The point was to lead you to Kurumi and iGrok above everyone else. Kurumi attacks lafali for his bandwagon vote bringing nothing new to the table on freeloader. There was absolutely no reason for him to throw scum on lafali so early in the game if he's mafia. Plus his aggressiveness and balls-out attitude are more inline with a green than anything else. Kurumi is most likely town. iGrok defends lafali as probably newb town. He's the only one who defends lafali straight out, but Vain, aprudds, monsterDrakar, and Senj also soft-defend him. I'm not saying they are all scum, but it's a great place to look for scum (dts take note! vigis save your shots). At this point in time I think iGrok is almost certainly the godfather of the mafia team (it could be jackal as well but his behavior doesn't fit the role as well, and seems more in line with the town play I've seen from him). iGrok defends lafali after Kurumi calls him out and votes for him, while before this accusation he posted that everyone who had voted so far ( which included lafali) should be under suspicion. Contradiction. iGrok has also been working to get into a town-leadership and thread-presence position all game, something the godfather always tries to do. iGrok also got way too defensive after being attacked and accused. Other suspicious people to me: Vain, partly for defending lafali, partly for advocating the lynch on freeloader for 'information' blehhhhh I already posted about that, and partly because iGrok listed him as a skilled vet with him, me and jackal when I think he's quite new and I havent seen anything particularly good from him. iGrok probably wanted another mafia on that list, though. Of course jimbooo whom I voted Day 1, for reasons already stated by multiple players. Others are monsterDrakar and Senj. xkcd has decreased on my scum meter lately but isn't totally clear. So, he is the most passive, which could also mean he is a blue and then later in another post, you try to get other people to bandwagon with You. Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue, but u do have good analysis of those players. Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum! Grush57 is calling igrok scum. This was irr before he was in alot of danger so this pleads for him Read this again. Grush isn't calling igrok scum, he's defending him given that he's responding to an attack on iGrok and saying that "which could also mean he is a blue". Then he says "Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue", and concludes by articulating that isn't actually defending iGrok "Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum!", when he actually is. In the mean time, would you mind responding to the numerous accusations against yourself? You seem to be selectively responding to accusations against grush instead of yourself. Also, given that the day vote is ending soon, pick out a candidate and give good reasons for voting for them, I haven't seen you strongly support a lynch all game. I've only seen you defend iGrok and grush, so please, I would love for you to make a vote and back it up now. Several pages later he changed his mind and agreed he wasn't blue either. I'll vote when ill see fit and don't make it seem there have been strong cases against any player yet. We lynched 1.5 times a blue so you go ahead and make a very strong case on a scum. But if it turns out to be a blue you stop playing this game forever ok? Btw, i also thought voting for jackal while igrock was alsmost about to be lynched was a huge scumtell. but i just really hoped you didn't notice Please link me to where grush ever accused iGrok of being mafia (or in fact agreed that iGrok was not blue). In fact a quick search of grush's posts with reference to iGrok (hooray for search function!) reveals that he always defending iGrok and suspicious of the people who bandwagon against iGrok. In the meantime, I notice how you haven't responded to the accusations against yourself yet again, please do so. Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 07:20 grush57 wrote: Yea, I don't really think he would be blue either. there, now do your own research without a stupid search function. now accusing of what, not voting on scum? guilty as charged but you have to come with more than that. Ok, I stand corrected on the quote issue. (That still doesn't clear grush by any means - he's only saying that iGrok probably isn't blue).
But when I'm talking about accusations I mean responding to the following posts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=52#1022 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=58#1157 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=61#1212 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=65#1286
Especially considering that the last of the set of 4 posts is just 2 posts above one of yours and is on the same page where we have had such a nice conversation, it looks to me like you are dodging the accusations against yourself.
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On June 13 2011 09:51 Vain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 09:33 TranceStorm wrote:On June 13 2011 09:22 Vain wrote:On June 13 2011 09:10 TranceStorm wrote:On June 13 2011 09:02 Vain wrote:On June 13 2011 08:53 TranceStorm wrote:On June 13 2011 08:41 Vain wrote:Ok, i went trough grush57 posts again. Most of them are just reactions or agreements of people so i am not going to post those. On June 09 2011 06:55 grush57 wrote:On June 09 2011 06:40 supersoft wrote:I going to vote for iGrok now. I believe he's scum. For several reasons. First reason: I thought about who might be the person who leads the mafia - whether he's also GF or not doesn't matter for me right now. To my mind came 3 persons who dominated the scene at the first day: Kurumi, Jackal and iGrok. Now to the differences between these three players: Kurumi is very aggressive and gets into everyones face every time he posts something. He was against the freeloaderlynch and sceptical about the rookielynch. But he proposed several alternativelynches. Jackal was also against the freeloaderlynch, and he proposed to lynch rookie instead. No good move if you are GF/mafia if you know that freeloader also is townie... Why should you draw votes from a townie to another townie... That's just stupid... iGrok just posted some informations etc. and he asked for a DT-check on Kurumi. ___________________________ iGrok was the most passive player out of the three. Of course he was! as scum he knew exactly that rookie and freeloader were innocent, so he could easily sit back and watch the town lynch each other. He just hadn't do anything. In fact it would have been stupid to really push for a Kurumilynch. He just tried to make him look suspicious, to draw attention from himself: Of course a DT check on Kurumi would be negative. But no problem, iGrok still could say that Kurumi is the GF. Second reasonThis shit convinced me + Show Spoiler +On June 08 2011 13:03 GGQ wrote:GGQ's big post of epicness in case he dies tonight (which I've just realised I dont have enough time to make as long as I want Trust me that it's smart and good: No one undertook the exercise I set of looking at who defended and attacked lafali and why. I'm very disappointed, guys. You all get 0/2 on your homework for today. The veteran players are all going to be dead before this game is nearly over, and you guys need to practice working on how to actually find scum, not just accuse people based on neutral tells. Keep your heads up, don't get discouraged. Look at contradictions in talk and behavior. Look at people who are skating by with posts that just repeat previous content. These are the scummy players. The point was to lead you to Kurumi and iGrok above everyone else. Kurumi attacks lafali for his bandwagon vote bringing nothing new to the table on freeloader. There was absolutely no reason for him to throw scum on lafali so early in the game if he's mafia. Plus his aggressiveness and balls-out attitude are more inline with a green than anything else. Kurumi is most likely town. iGrok defends lafali as probably newb town. He's the only one who defends lafali straight out, but Vain, aprudds, monsterDrakar, and Senj also soft-defend him. I'm not saying they are all scum, but it's a great place to look for scum (dts take note! vigis save your shots). At this point in time I think iGrok is almost certainly the godfather of the mafia team (it could be jackal as well but his behavior doesn't fit the role as well, and seems more in line with the town play I've seen from him). iGrok defends lafali after Kurumi calls him out and votes for him, while before this accusation he posted that everyone who had voted so far ( which included lafali) should be under suspicion. Contradiction. iGrok has also been working to get into a town-leadership and thread-presence position all game, something the godfather always tries to do. iGrok also got way too defensive after being attacked and accused. Other suspicious people to me: Vain, partly for defending lafali, partly for advocating the lynch on freeloader for 'information' blehhhhh I already posted about that, and partly because iGrok listed him as a skilled vet with him, me and jackal when I think he's quite new and I havent seen anything particularly good from him. iGrok probably wanted another mafia on that list, though. Of course jimbooo whom I voted Day 1, for reasons already stated by multiple players. Others are monsterDrakar and Senj. xkcd has decreased on my scum meter lately but isn't totally clear. So, he is the most passive, which could also mean he is a blue and then later in another post, you try to get other people to bandwagon with You. Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue, but u do have good analysis of those players. Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum! Grush57 is calling igrok scum. This was irr before he was in alot of danger so this pleads for him Read this again. Grush isn't calling igrok scum, he's defending him given that he's responding to an attack on iGrok and saying that "which could also mean he is a blue". Then he says "Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue", and concludes by articulating that isn't actually defending iGrok "Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum!", when he actually is. In the mean time, would you mind responding to the numerous accusations against yourself? You seem to be selectively responding to accusations against grush instead of yourself. Also, given that the day vote is ending soon, pick out a candidate and give good reasons for voting for them, I haven't seen you strongly support a lynch all game. I've only seen you defend iGrok and grush, so please, I would love for you to make a vote and back it up now. Several pages later he changed his mind and agreed he wasn't blue either. I'll vote when ill see fit and don't make it seem there have been strong cases against any player yet. We lynched 1.5 times a blue so you go ahead and make a very strong case on a scum. But if it turns out to be a blue you stop playing this game forever ok? Btw, i also thought voting for jackal while igrock was alsmost about to be lynched was a huge scumtell. but i just really hoped you didn't notice Please link me to where grush ever accused iGrok of being mafia (or in fact agreed that iGrok was not blue). In fact a quick search of grush's posts with reference to iGrok (hooray for search function!) reveals that he always defending iGrok and suspicious of the people who bandwagon against iGrok. In the meantime, I notice how you haven't responded to the accusations against yourself yet again, please do so. On June 09 2011 07:20 grush57 wrote: Yea, I don't really think he would be blue either. there, now do your own research without a stupid search function. now accusing of what, not voting on scum? guilty as charged but you have to come with more than that. Ok, I stand corrected on the quote issue. (That still doesn't clear grush by any means - he's only saying that iGrok probably isn't blue). But when I'm talking about accusations I mean responding to the following posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=52#1022Well as i stated before it was pretty much a 50/50 scum/blue flip i just don't really like talking about blues and i didn't feel like investigating the rest again. Day one lynch is most of the time wrong anyways. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=58#1157point one: GGQ,Kurumi and a few others are also on that list. Ty for bringing that up. It could very well be those are all townies. Igrok was positioning himself as head townie remember? Point two: same as first link Point three: Well igrok said something about at least one vet being in the mafia. I found that a very good theory. One of the two had to be mafia but i picked the wrong one. I dind't think igrok would put so much effort in appearing town while he was godfather. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=61#1212Jeah, really i don't know what GGQ was smoking but i didn't even talk about lafali once before i died http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=65#1286Especially considering that the last of the set of 4 posts is just 2 posts above one of yours and is on the same page where we have had such a nice conversation, it looks to me like you are dodging the accusations against yourself. So, i hope that's enough for now. I quoted my own posts a couple of times because you happened to 'skip by them' multiple times so I called you out asking you to respond multiple times. Only when I have finally pinned you down here have you finally responded to any attacks against yourself. So lets look at your responses:
Post #1: Ok, so you voted to lynch rookie on the basis that it was a 50/50 and you didn't want to investigate anyone else further. That sounds fishy by itself, but I won't press the issue here.
Post #2: The first thing you miss in that post is that I compare your current behavior in the thread to that in your previous game. (the first two paragraphs) There was a complete different between the way you posted in the beginning of this game and Slightly Normal Mini Mafia I. Only now, have you become more active in your postings. Is this because I called you out? Now onto the subpoints:
1. Yes GGQ and Kurumi and the others were on the list. But that was because they had contributed significantly or were seen as veterans - you had not done much analysis. In fact iGrok lumped you into his 'experienced players category' when you had been modkilled in his Sleeper Cell Mafia Game. 2. Same as Post #1. 3. My argument was that you were extremely hesistant and unwilling to associate yourself with either side. You seemed extremely unsure and unwilling to accept responsibility for your vote which piqued my interest as you seemed to wish to 'hide'.
Post #3: The key issue in this post was not GGQ's accusations. Its Pyo's collection of your posting history. A key thing to note is that you had not expressed a strong opinion on any issue. You had not advocated for a lynch or advocated for a plan or what not. In fact the only consistent thing in your posting history was your constant defense of iGrok and your suggestion that he not be lynched.
Post #4: This is where I accuse you of dodging accusations. I called you out repeatedly, and judging by the fact that you say you read back on grush's posts, I expect that you must have read those posts. Why did you delay responding until I forced you to respond? The reason is that you have been trying to hide and dodge those suspicions. Don't say that I am dodging accusations, when I am repeatedly calling you out.
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