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On May 31 2011 06:06 sandroba wrote: @BC Isn't this only going to give us a vet/good player list for this game. Do you think mafia will purposefully remove their good players from their list?
Mine for example would be:
# GMarshal # kitaman27 # bumatlarge # Amber[LighT] # BloodyC0bbler # Meapak_Ziphh
That's pretty much a list of players we think would be good as mafia no?
not guarenteed. Every player has strengths and weakness'. Some far are better as town, others as mafia. Certain people have very specific and damning tells while others don't. The list is designed to put people somewhere where heat is on them. For instance, if I am on the dt check side of the list I have to make sure whatever contributions I make are very very townlike because if I appear too scummy, mafia can shove a frame on you (if they have the ability this game), town kp role shoots you, get lynched, etc...
People with more experience than others may appear on it, but everyone has to discuss it. Do people like x as a med prot over a dt check. Why was this person excluded after their behaviour etc...
It changes as the day progresses and forces discussion.
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I have to jet to work, be back tonight. Don't be stupid in that time please.
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I come back from work to see a derailed thread talking about pretty well nothing. I am so glad to see town is so easily led astray by nonsense.
To much time has been taken up by this nonsense about ambers role. If he is a dt style dog, he will merely sniff and growl at someone tomorrow if they are red, or sniff and wiggle his tail if they are town.
If he is a med dog he can hop around them and bark if he made a save and hop around and whimper if he didnt. If he is a vig style dog, he bites the dead body in thread and barks.
If he is another role he can figure out an appropriate action to do but there, ambers role dealt with. He can easily communicate agreement or discontent or the like easily enough in thread.
As for people posting base lists without any reasoning to them, Hi for fake activity. Anyone on the zodiac list should be there for a reason. Also no one is also mentioning a medic list with reasons behind it. huge FoS on that.
FoS on kita for FoSing people and trying to shut down talking without contributing seriously then begins to derail thread talking about mason role (which we don't know if exists in a good/serious way as the claimed one atm seems to suck). He also begins discussing the information mafia has on roles. Seriously shitty behaviour.
Once i am better caught up I shall post more comprehensive thoughts.
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On May 31 2011 12:35 Karshe wrote: I'm not lurking, I'm in the middle of getting caught up with everything. My other game (SNMM2) went 35 pages for the entire game, so this has been a bit overwhelming, lol.
So far I'm not convinced Mataza has done anything scummy yet. He made a strange move that could have been considered a blunder in SNMM and ended up being a townie getting lynched. So far my impression from him is that he's an active player that posts first and thinks later. No offense intended, Mataza!
Hi, I know you don't know me and I don't know you. However you have yet to post anything meaningful or helpfully contribute in any way. You like one liners and playing the newb card. Please think constructively on relevant topics as opposed to randomly creating a green townie list, that serves no one in any helpful manner.
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On May 31 2011 12:41 Eternalmisfit wrote: Regardless of redFF alignment, I am hesitant on lynching him on the first day. He is the only one who's role is semi-confirmed at this point (the only way his role is something else is that Amber and red are both scum).
Also, his role is pro-town in nature which can be out to good use if the town controls his role usage. As long as his role powers are controlled by the town, it is unlikely that he is a direct threat to the town (given the fact mafia KP is constant irrespective number of scum alive).
This, of course is dependent on the fact that his role is limited to PM's and does not have any additional powers. Even if it has additional powers, I doubt he can use PM and the extra power together (since that seems to break the role strength). So, as long as we have to force him to use him PM ability everyday, I don't think he can harm the town.
Seriously stop talking about roles. They serve no purpose. If he is mafia, his role is pro mafia. If he is town, its pro town. IT does not matter if town controls where he uses it. If he is mafia he can easily manipulate someone into giving him information they shouldnt. If he is town he could link to a mafia and be manipulated into giving out info.
Stop talking about roles. It is not constructive day 1, nor helpful. Roles do not win games for town, analysis and townies do.
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On May 31 2011 12:43 Karshe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 12:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On May 31 2011 12:35 Karshe wrote: I'm not lurking, I'm in the middle of getting caught up with everything. My other game (SNMM2) went 35 pages for the entire game, so this has been a bit overwhelming, lol.
So far I'm not convinced Mataza has done anything scummy yet. He made a strange move that could have been considered a blunder in SNMM and ended up being a townie getting lynched. So far my impression from him is that he's an active player that posts first and thinks later. No offense intended, Mataza!
Hi, I know you don't know me and I don't know you. However you have yet to post anything meaningful or helpfully contribute in any way. You like one liners and playing the newb card. Please think constructively on relevant topics as opposed to randomly creating a green townie list, that serves no one in any helpful manner. As I said, I'm still getting caught up with everyone's posts, there is no need to be condescending. This is the biggest game I've played thus far so connecting everyone's posts to everyone's name and post history is something I'm still getting used to. I don't recall having made a green townie list thus far, my post was in direct response to Chaos asking what we thought about certain people.
Your posting has shown you have been around so far the entirety of the game off and on. As such you have had more time to familiarize yourself with it and keep ontop of the posting. As such the majority of your posts should not be as useless as they are and appear to posts keeping you active for active's sake. Also posting your thoughts on a player you believe is town? How the hell is that helpful. Analyze someone you think is being scummy. Give solid reasons. I don't mean to be condescending but even you should realize just how off your play seems.
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BumatLarge BloodyC0bbler GMarshal Meapak Dropbear Node Jackal.
As of right now the list I have given should be the centered Zodiac list. You have all had your chance to talk about it and as no one has really done so there is the list. Everyone on it will have to be held carefully accountable for their actions. Most of us have a fair number of games behind us to give a decent interpretation of our play as town or mafia. Of this list, a few of us have appeared more town like than others.
Now before everyone goes "sweet dt's dont check here" think again, as you are horribly off.
Watcher or tracker style roles. This is the list you focus on. If we go out, if we get visited you want to know. It gives you the ability to connect dots of who is red and who isnt, who lies and who doesnt as time goes by,
Standard role or alignment style detectives your job is to sweep everyone who isnt on this list. Start with whoever is obviously playing suspectly.
Now, Medics, I will be posting a list closer to day end on what you guys should be doing. As of now there is not enough of a list for us to accurately center you on, nor do I really wish to give mafia a larger amount of time to discuss exactly how to deal with the list.
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On May 31 2011 13:26 Mig wrote: Why is db on there BC? I have played both of my last 2 games with DB. He was extremely active last game as a townie and much more of a lurker as a mafia so are you putting him on there because of his inactivity? The one thing I would consider for that is we just finished a long long game yesterday so he might just be taking a day off before he jumps back in.
He is there as he was a member of a mafia team directly coached by me. As such I interacted with him on a fairly decent level to know what he is capable of. One does not have to be a massively known vet to be good.
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On May 31 2011 22:39 Rean wrote: Voting Torte de Lini aswell. He's yet to contribute despite being asked to several times, let's put some more pressure on him.
How about you start contributing as well instead of presurring someone on their first game. Lead by example I say!
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On May 31 2011 21:34 bumatlarge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 21:21 Mataza wrote: Dude, you are behaving a lot like last game. First of all, there is not much of kitatrain right now. Secondly, the "I won´t change unless you bring a solid defense" is what you did as mafia, too. Problem is, you CANNOT have a solid defense in a mafia game. Doubt is the normal state towards everyone. You might as well ask for the holy grail before the crusade even begun.
And I don´t exactly buy that more fistpounds are beneficial without any strict numbers behind it. Carrying over to the next day I could understand. Increments tied to certain numbers I could understand. But every single fistpound being beneficial is just weird. It has to be either percentual increments or full numbers of people then. And full numbers of people is what I greatly fear.
Last game, you broke this bros heart. This time it ain´t gonna be fixed with a fistpound and smile. Imma never trust you again. Also I want to note, just because someone doesn't have a lot of votes on them at the time, doesn't mean it isn't a wagon. It's a kinda noobie mafia play to agree with how someone is acting scummy, and not make any move in the voting thread. Most notably: + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2011 12:27 BloodyC0bbler wrote: I come back from work to see a derailed thread talking about pretty well nothing. I am so glad to see town is so easily led astray by nonsense.
To much time has been taken up by this nonsense about ambers role. If he is a dt style dog, he will merely sniff and growl at someone tomorrow if they are red, or sniff and wiggle his tail if they are town.
If he is a med dog he can hop around them and bark if he made a save and hop around and whimper if he didnt. If he is a vig style dog, he bites the dead body in thread and barks.
If he is another role he can figure out an appropriate action to do but there, ambers role dealt with. He can easily communicate agreement or discontent or the like easily enough in thread.
As for people posting base lists without any reasoning to them, Hi for fake activity. Anyone on the zodiac list should be there for a reason. Also no one is also mentioning a medic list with reasons behind it. huge FoS on that.
FoS on kita for FoSing people and trying to shut down talking without contributing seriously then begins to derail thread talking about mason role (which we don't know if exists in a good/serious way as the claimed one atm seems to suck). He also begins discussing the information mafia has on roles. Seriously shitty behaviour.
Once i am better caught up I shall post more comprehensive thoughts. On May 31 2011 17:21 Mataza wrote: I have been sleeping over this and it´s bugging me. So here´s the thing:
There are things we are not expecting(yes obvious). We have 33 people and 33 roles. Yet Mafia have only 1 Kill per night. A reasonable amount of people for scumteam would be somewhere around 5-9. This is not slightly off balance, this is "WTF is this shit?". Looking at these numbers, I would refuse to play the mafia side, because of pointlessness.
So my take is that there is a huge area we don´t know shit about. I could think of several options, but the point is, this is not helpful. I just mean to say we shouldn´t be surprised to either 1) see people killing without actually having a killing role. 2) see that mafia team has a strong density of killing roles. 3) find out that we have a rather high number of neutrals(like upwards of 4)
Now this info alone is useless. However it would become more useful if we had an idea about the number of existing killing roles. Come the next day I would suggest claiming whether or not one assigned a misinformation or killing role. Because killing and misinformation are the antitown traits we should get a grip on them.
In another instance, I reread kitaman27, chaos13, meapak, varpulis and cthsazsa. None of them scream red to me after rereading. Varpulis has been a bit erratic since before the game. cthsazsa has been extremely short in posting. Nothing much to work with, other than added unusefulness. chaos13 seems rather legit. Other than asking why Karshe paid attention to his list, talking about the only person on the list he knows, there has been nothing odd. Meapak was maybe a bad call by me to check in the first place. Without any meta knowledge I´d say he looks 100% ok. Then again, people often use past games to judge veterans and I didn´t.
Kitaman27 on the other hand is experienced and looks quite erratic. Rather short and unhelpful, while also very quick to vote. Unless some vets tell me that is normal, this is going down as scummy in my book. His only longer post is about Mason roles in general. Everything else is short and choppy.
Barring an extraordinary defense, Kitaman27 is guilty in my eyes.
On May 31 2011 20:12 prplhz wrote:I'm gonna agree with the FoS on kitaman27. One of his first post is this: + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2011 05:06 kitaman27 wrote: Agreed.
I'm green with envy for your scum hunting skills. .. and I honestly do not know what to read into that. First time I read it I didn't even notice but I think it's a weird thing to say. The following posts are all without content, telling people to stop talking about dog+list. Then he just made his biggest contribution yet, in defense of himself. I consider this scummy. Gee, three people thinking someone is scum with no votes in the thread. I can't really say much about BC, he's just giving an FoS, and probably has other people in mind. Hard to say, but it's funny that after he says that, mataza and prplhz take advantage of that. And it doesn't matter what kita's alignment is when analyzing you, since you never put your vote on him! I'll take note of this, thank you for your participation
You've noticed people following me around too eh? Glad to see I'm not crazy and seeing things that don't exist.
You will notice people jumped on the harass karshe wagon as well when I was pressuring him. Simple things to look for and two sets of eyes are better than 1, we shall find the mafia sheeping sure enough.
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On May 31 2011 22:54 bumatlarge wrote: I am retarded. Anyway, tnkted are you planning on telling us anything or do you want to drag this roleclaim out?
Honestly, with all the day 1 RC's and soft claims going on, I honestly think we should hold back pushing for more roles. Gives mafia free stomping grounds potentially on what roles to pick off.
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On June 01 2011 01:19 GMarshal wrote: I disagree with you on policy bum. Policy is one way to distinguish scum from town. If we systematically kill liars then no town is going to lie, and it makes scum think twice before lying, because they know that if they do then they will be killed.
I think we might agree to disagree on this one, but I think policy is a good thing.
The LaL system is very very hard to enforce accurately though. A townie can lie under proper circumstances and is actually beneficial. In most games I have played in scum never has to actively lie in thread as most of their lies would be done outside thread via pms (in pm style games). In thread most lies come in the appearance of role claims. Mafia don't actually have to lie in a game in which there is a draft order or someone picked their role.
Also keep in mind if you have a player like amber who is forced to talk like a dog in this game, and someone who apparently must say bro and fistpump people it could be that people may have to lie about their roles, or lie in general.
This is a game where policies that may be usable in a general style game are not really relevant here.
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On June 01 2011 11:39 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Hi I'm on my phone and will be for a while, can someone tell me why people want either sandroba or tnkted dead? The person I picked out a while back (Tackster) is looking scummy as ever yet a lot of people have glossed over it. I'm liking node's posting btw, he's said a lot of good things and I think people should take note. Also BC and Bum, where are you guys? This thread is absolutely out of control and you two should be trying to calm things down.
Just got back from work, catching up in detail now rather than post skimming and I gotta say. Why the hell are we still talking about sand? If hes mafia he will give himself up in the next day or so and with the rampant amount of people jumping on the "lets kill sand wagon" with very little defense of him I gotta say, seems like we are being let to bus a tard.
I will now get a better idea of what was said but bleh.
Also, GM your survey is horribly scummy, no one continue responding to it.
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Can we cut this moronic survey nonsense out please? It derails the thread and lets people post things more or less freely. I warned GM for it and now we have vicera doing it? Quit the nonsense shit and lets move on to real discussion. Making a system that purposely lets mafia be active at no cost to themselves is honestly going to shaft us.
As for today, as no one can honestly agree on a suspect, I will be going through the thread and finding the few players who are spending more time derailing the thread as opposed to helping town and pushing to off them. Thread derailment is something scum benefit from and are more likely to push so would give us a "safe" day 1 lynch target. If anyone has objections to this lets hear it now and get the discussion rolling or lets move forward.
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On June 01 2011 14:12 VisceraEyes wrote: @Cthsazsa & others concerned Right now, BloodyC0bbler is the most suspicious to me. His posts make me feel like he's speaking for the whole town, all the time. Almost as if discussions that aren't relevant to him...are scummy...period. And he's got followers, which is scary by itself.
Pro-town..besides me (herp)....I'd have to say Amber. He's going to a lot of effort to contribute so far, and most of it has been relevant imo...by which I mean, I agree on most of his vaguely communicated reads so far. I also feel like Node is green. He's at least giving us his opinion, and most of it is fair that I've read.
People I can't figure out...
Jackal comes off as arrogant...but not so much scummy. Torte...from lack of posts primarily desk...very passionate, very adamant, very flighty GM...claimed early that he was avoiding doing pro-town things in case he's a mole. Essentially opting out of being a 'good' townie until day 3...when he knows for sure he's not a mole. This has been confirmed as feasible by...someone. What interests me is his very strict adherence to this policy. He hasn't given an opinion on anyone really, just asks questions. sandroba...knows what sandroba is doing.
I like getting called out.
I also like getting called out by people who have not even been reading my posts. You will find I have been encouraging discussion, even participating in it. However, this only relates to discussion which actually does something useful for the town. Something to organize us, something that forces people to reveal hints about their alignment. By concentrating discussion on areas in which the mafia cannot hide easily. All the discussion I have tried to stifle does nothing but allow mafia to hide or sit back while we argue and bicker. Your survey was no exception. It is essentially another "hi i like making" list posts that have no weight now or late game. I do appreciate you trying to point fingers at me, however your behaviour so far this game is pretty terrible.
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How about we discuss people who are obviously derailing the town? How about we take a look at people who are obviously active yet not posting. People who come out when called, offer no actual substance and move on. There are numerous players in this game who are not being helpful. This is not to say they are all 100% mafia, but mafia benefit more than town from chaos. Take a look at say, 4pmish est earlier today, about an hour before work. Town was talking generally on a straightish angle. This was on analysis of players who were somewhat scummy, putting pressure on them to get information. This was valuable. Then somehow we got sidetracked back onto sandroba's plan we had all but moved away from. This was brought back up by mr.wiggles.
I would suggest since he threw us back on this topic we look at the posts made roughly around that period. Once you were accused and your plan dragged back up too much time was spent on it, then on other non helpful discussions. We can analyze what was going on in that period that mafia would benefit from covering up.
I am going through now a list of possible candidates for lynching for today. All of which will be responsible for trying to redirect town attention away from decent conversation. I will then emphasize of that list the 2-3 that should be considered for a day 1 lynch based on posting.
No one raised any issues when I proposed this earlier so I will now follow through on it.
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On June 01 2011 14:43 VisceraEyes wrote: @BloodyC0bbler
Tell me this list-guy. Why do you think I'm supposedly on the dog's unverified list? I have no idea, as I'm obviously inexperienced and, as you say, terrible...but I suspect it's because he either knows my role or my alignment.
If your on his unverified list, it would mean he doesn't know what you are -_- seriously do you read what you type?
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On June 01 2011 15:15 VisceraEyes wrote: @BC
Not usually.
You don't really have to be a dick, guy. I don't know what you're angry about SPECIFICALLY, but I know it doesn't have anything to do with me.
I'm not angry duder. Don't take my posting to be angry unless you see mass caps and me calling you a retarded backwoods faggot or the like.
I find being aggressive as I am a much better way to force people to step up than being nice about it. It also forces players into arguing. That in turn gives information that is used to analyze people. I know I come off as a dick, but if you sit back and look at what I'm doing the reason is pretty clear. It gives town information to work from, as well as helping you learn areas you need improvement in your game. We all have areas to improve, no shame in it.
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Varpulis + Show Spoiler + -pushes anti town plans - wants to lynch all liars -attempts to undermine town plans -spends way to much time on ambers role -brings up GM’s first question post which was not town oriented. Uses to confirm GM as town -answers GM’s last questionnaire which was not town oriented
Hiro protagonist + Show Spoiler + -blindly agrees with almost everything vets say/far too sheepish -spends too much time on keeping conversation around ambers role -after town has moved on from ambers role attempts to drag conversation back to it -
Tackster -Multiple cases again him in thread already, see those.
prplhz + Show Spoiler + -wants LaL when it was agreed it doesn’t work in this setup -sheeps kita, sandroba and possibly others who are being pressured strongly at any one time -aggressive posting while offering no substance -defends tackstar, who barely has any heat on -answers gm’s questionnaire which was not pro town -says if tackstar is innocent sand is scum (no way of knowing this) -refuses to justify his read on sandroba(sheeping) while defending tackstar far too much for day 1
Rean + Show Spoiler + -relatively inactive -attempts to bring ambers role back up as town is moving on -sums up information already said.
bartundar -inactive as hell for a vet and offers nothing substantive but rehashing things we have stopped talking about
Now, obviously this is generalized and after a passthrough of the entire thread. There are others I have my eye on, but they are for different reasons. For day 1 purposes these players have all been extremely unhelpful or detrimental. Of the lot Varpulis has also contributed to constructive discussion so I would be satisifed leaving him alive for another day. Bartundar should also live another day to see if his inactivity will be a day 1 affair or a serious issue. His alignment should be gleaned fairly quickly based on his participation in thread.
Of the group I would suggest we discuss the possibilities of lynching prplhz who has done very little constructive posting. Most of his posts have been sheeping others. He was for anti town ideas, and blindly defends tackstar without any real reason for it, while claiming one of tackstar and sand must be red. No one can know this for sure unless they already knew the role of one of or both of these players.
I will be voting on him until he provides me with a suitable excuse for his shoddy play. If someone else would like to take a closer look at someone else on this list, or nominate another person by all means.
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actually, remove hiro from that list. His last few posts were not up when I was searching. He is helpful now so ignore him on there.
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