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On March 24 2011 13:24 Coagulation wrote: wait what if theres no counter claim to you bum because the blues just got a green townie PM like the rest of us?
and the whole ROL gets to decide who gets lynched is complete garbage. what the fuck makes u think hes not mafia?
Well there is a 2:1 chance he isn't, figured I'd just let him take the wheel and take a nap...
+ Show Spoiler +Of course I'm going to scrutinize what he does, but he is a good scumhunter. It's not like I'd be handing out role lists. I'm not saying I'll just win the game with RoL and everyone can go bone themselves. It was meant to be read as more of a joke, with some truth behind it
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On March 24 2011 18:01 Rean wrote: Unless someone goes for the counter-claim, i'd say we can't go wrong electing Bum. Otherwise we're potentially giving away Mayor to a mafia, and that risk doesn't sound like one that we should be taking.
If there is a blue out there not aligned to Bum: CLAIM. If he isn't really blue we've found a free first scum.
Well I mean someone counter claiming doesn't automatically make me scum >_> they could be lying but I doubt mafia or third party has the balls. My balls should be getting cold, as they are hanging loosely from my open fly. They remain warm and filled with virility.
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I think annul is just paranoid, and I don't blame him considering it's insane. You don't have to vote me if you don't believe me, just provide a better option. I think Kavdragon is clearly the next best thing.
And yes, I will be putting lots of analysis together of course.
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Jesus people, giving RoL sole rights to the lynch was a joke. If he comes out and says "This person is mafia 100%", I'm going to let town mull it over with whatever opinions they have. The lynch is in the town hands and I'll be taking note of all those who chime in on what it is going to be.
And I never slipped as town. I was obviously going to be the mayor candidate for our blue squad before I even mentioned it to town.
The only thin I really want to prove now is my scum-hunting abilities, and we've generated a lot of discussion and nearly everyone has taken a stance on something.
People I want to hear more from: darmousseh - was recently temp banned and re-reading thread. So when-ever he is ready. OriginalName - Said he's going to be inactive friday-staurday a bit, but he hasn't made up for that stretch yet. Kenpachi - Ran for mayor, hasn't said anything since then... lol annul - Very outspoken against me, but he isn't giving alternatives orgolove - He's going to be inactive as well, but he's basically mimicked annul, with no alternatives. kevconism - POST BRO GGQ - Kenpachi syndrome ilovejonn - opinions on things that are relevant please. Amberlight - good players shouldn't be silent BrownBear - Relevant posts, but you're an active poster usually, so I expect a stance too. Beneather - POOOOOSTTTT Insanious - opinions on what is relevant Eiii - post
Well, I think everyone else has given acceptable thoughts on the issues. If you want to make life easy for me, put a @bum for anything directed at me and I will respond as soon as possible. I'll read through again and see if I can clear up more stuff like this garbage about me slipping? Point to the slip if it's obvious, otherwise don't take what I say out of context, that could go badly for you. I only said it would be fairly obvious I was blue because I brought up the plan and initiated it. I think I would have gone ahead with it anyway because my blue team was on board.
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On March 25 2011 06:37 Tackster wrote: @Bum now you're saying that instead of giving RoL the lynch you're giving us the lynch??
The whole point of you being elected was a clear role that wouldn't by swayed by mafia. When you decide to lynch take your own scumhunting abilities into account and try not to let mafia influence you too much when you read the posts on who to lynch.
DONT leave the lynch up to a town vote.... Then we're trading any point of you being clear with the mafia's ability to influence town.
Just say you're gonna take our votes into account but make your own decision and reserve the right to shoot who you want. It's the pro-town thing to do!
I'm not putting it up to vote, if that's what your thinking. I'm going to put forward a candidate, and I'd like RoL and Kav to put forward people as well before I do, and then I'll take what everyone says into account. I'm not going to let a townie be killed if I can help it. And mafia isn't going to sway this vote unless RoL or Kav are on the same non-town aligned scum team.
Anyone who has a strong case against someone should put it forward, not just RoL and Kav. I think that should be clear. Then I will discuss the case with my circle and put forward our decision. Town can then agree or disagree with what we come up with. Mafia would have to be EXTREMELY outspoken to get any say this way, which is precisely what I want them to do. This makes my job easier, and it makes scumhunters' job easier.
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On March 25 2011 06:49 orgolove wrote: There's still nothing that proves that bum is actually a blue as he claims to be. He could just as easily have a roleswitching/godfather role that is practically impossible to prove in a game such as this that has no reveal on death. I don't understand why you guys are blindly trusting his claim. We've been burned by the reds before...
And I love how bum immediately puts me under his suspicion list because I'm not blindly sheeping like the rest of the town.
Anyway. If push comes to shove, I'd rather support Kavdragon than you.
Well I wanted you to post more on your alternatives. A green town with no role should be evenly focused on how I could not be a blue and what would be a better option. I think it's fairly obvious based on what I've read on your posts that you concentrate very hard on what could be wrong with my claim and not what we can do instead. I don't have a read on annul, he could be an townie playing devil's advocate, which is something I could use. You basically being a quieter version of annul doesn't help me think you are town.
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On March 25 2011 07:11 GGQ wrote:You take that back! There's nothing to post right now. I offered to be mayor, but I don't think I'm the best choice, and apparently no one else does either, so there's nothing more to say about that. I'm staying caught up with the thread, but I'm waiting for roles to come out before making my mind up about anything.
All I wanted to hear.
... but now you have Mr. Wiggles syndrome
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On March 25 2011 07:16 orgolove wrote: Sorry, it's been a few months since my last game - will do so. Didn't think it was too different.
I'm still hesitant to completely trust bum. Given the alternative, I'd rather believe Kav's skills than bum's oversight, as shown by his mistake in revealing his blue-ship so early.
Where the fuck is this blue slip. Point to it.
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I wouldn't really call something I do on purpose a "slip"
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On March 25 2011 09:56 annul wrote: several on town: bum claimed blue OMFG THAT MUST MEAN HE IS A CONFIRMED BLUE, give him mayor
me: why u so dum?
several on town: OMFG YOU MUST BE A SCUM
Alright calm down, I understand your argument. So I'll try to give you what you want to hear, because I'm not sure lynching you is in our best interests.
Item game - I've only got one thing to say to this. I don't know. I don't know what the item game will give us exactly, but I am sure it's strong. I don't know jack about who is what in the item game. I love your numbers on why red won't be hitting within the item game, and giving mayorship to a townie within the game will nearly guarantee us this item. I know there is a good shot at giving townie mayorship in the item game and the item with it. But I think you are centralizing on the "Powers" which both many people have warned us of doing.
I can't concede to your plan knowing I've got a good shot at securing the mayoral spot, with a lot less doubt for town then usual. That's pretty big when town doesn't have to worry about this. But you don't agree that I'm necessarily a blue, which is why I took a while to work out how this could be faked before I claimed, and without roles, I don't believe it would be possible to fake-claim it without a counterclaim inevitably popping up. We will assume you are right for the sake of argument that your idea is superior. In that case, I would have to put a veteran as mayor, not a random item player. If there was a solid veteran in the item ranks with no scrutiny, I would consider it, but I would much rather someone I would know has experience to be mayor and not give a shit about power roles (Kav). It's an easy pick, I tried to go against Kav being picked where I was mafia and it doesn't work out if town realizes that the candidate has the potential to be a leader who can organize town properly. I hope to fill those shoes to the best of my abilities, so that the good scumhunters can be confident in my ability to use them and their analyses. It's either me or Kav, I won't be picking a random from the item game, and I can't vote for you annul, sorry. If you won't to promote jackal, that's another thing.
And I am not important to keep alive if I don't get mayor, because I am not a power role to my knowledge. While losing me would lose their voice for now and I am a decent player, the blue team can function without me. If this truly was in my opinion a better option I would have no problem stepping down, but I think I have a very strong argument, and people in this game know I am capable of being an asset to town. That said, I still think I am by far our best option. I don't want anyone to vote for me out of desperation that I already claimed. I want people to vote for me because I can help win us the game.
If you have anymore points or critiques, I will happily read them over. As I said, I don't feel comfortable having you as the first lynch, because what you are saying makes a lot of sense in regards to the item game, and it will be more of a stroke of luck to lynch you and find you are scum. I don't want to win by a stroke of luck.
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On March 25 2011 10:34 annul wrote: few things
1. why would you support jackal over me? what do you see about him that you do not see in me? if your arguments FOR yourself are strong, why even entertain jackal over myself?
2. you like my math re: item game and you concede giving mayor to a green in item game means an amazing chance to win item game. you counter this by essentially saying that as mayor, you are in the role to lead town in scumhunting, so you should give a veteran mayor (you).
why cant you still lead town in scumhunting without the bodyguard protection? the "mayor" role is ceremonial at best; if you want to be scumhunt leader, go for it. i just want the protection, not the leader role. i want the bodyguards. nothing is preventing you from leading town in scumhunting without the bodyguards.
you say you are not a power role, but roles have not been given out at all, which is why i challenged you earlier when you said that the blues are "more than just a PM circle."
... but lets roll with this. if you are not important to keep alive, then doesnt that kill a ton of the case my detractors have with why we should save you over an IG player?
1) You think town in general doesn't think you are scum? I may not feel that way, because in the past what 4 games you have been mafia and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and I don't mind having to deal with an aggressive player I know is smart. People are shouting your name for the first lynch, and if you get mayor, I think that will lead to the complete opposite of organized town. (I wouldn't like to think everyone arguing with you is scum, but if you feel that way, well that's your platform not mine )
2) Yes. Organized town > Advantageous town. Of course this all relies on the item. If you have any information on the item that is stronger then having a public town leader with a town circle behind him who will rationally take everyone's opinions and analyses, I'm all ears.
3) Because mayor is a strong role to speak from. Why can't we just have a medic protecting the most innocent IG player? I would gladly prioritize you or the chosen person. And this is very maneuverable. If hits are stacked or some ability is used, or medics fail, we have more IG players. I think to assign permanent protection, we should give it to a person who has much more backup. I am a blue, and my circle knows I am a blue. I'll happily wait til the last second for a counterclaim, and I'm open to any methods that might be used by non-town to do what I am doing.
4) I'm not going to discuss this if I am not going to be mayor. But, I fully back the statement I made. I have access to more then a PM circle. I know scum will have methods to counter-act what I have access to, so I don't want that to be the center of my campaign. I wouldn't say it if I didn't have it.
5) We can most likely keep the IG player who we agree is town alive as long as we need to. They are replaceable if something fails. I think I am a bit harder to replace, as my circle benefits from our numbers, while your item game may not. This is completely ignoring the fact that 2 out of 6 IG players are scum, and no one on my circle is.
As of right now, I think it's best to restate your idea clearly, so that if becoming mayor doesn't follow through, town will agree that your platform holds water. I think it does.
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Dont mix up blues with power roles this game. Blue in this game should mean my circle, not an individual person with a power like DT medi or vig. Those are "Power" roles.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2011 14:10 Kavdragon wrote:Ok, so: A few things we have learned: Town's number one enemy at this point is Annul. He has single handedly wasted over 100 posts on stupid arguments, and done a royal job of distracting the town. I will say it now: If I am elected mayor, I will lynch annul. Regardless of his alignment, his play is detrimental to the town. I'm sorry annul if this is your style, but it's not acceptable here. I'm entertaining the idea that he's scum again, and the scum team is so fed up with him, that they just said "Go throw fit in the thread and see how many people you can drag into the fight." Annul, you have some good points, but you have others that shouldn't have ever been brought up. The way you argue is ridiculous. I say this objectively, only looking at how your arguments are received. Above all arguments are made to convince people. You are failing at that, therefore your arguments are bad. This has already started in some respect, but people, please ignore Annul as much as you can. At this point arguing with him has proven fruitless, and it's only trashing the thread more. I'm going to call out my BFF coag, and plead that you keep the spam at a minimum. As far as elections go, I think we need to shelf the argument about Bum's alignment for a day. Let the blues out there take a bit of time, and then decide what to do. (I personally believe that he is Blue, but again, let's stop arguing about it, because time will show us more clearly than any argument would.) So what do we do if we ignore annul, and stop talking about bum for a day??? From what I can gather from pre-game info-gathering, town will almost certainly have more than the 1 KP from the lynch. To be clear, I believe there to be KP roles amongst the greens. (I have no proof, only an educated guess because this is Insane) On that topic, what are your thoughts on the direction (or lack there of) for these extra shots? + Show Spoiler [My opinions on the matter] + I think that the mayor should put together a que of people that should die. This list should be built with the town, but influenced by the circle of blues (assuming a bum mayor). This would give players with KP roles advice on who they might hit. Obviously the choice will be theirs, as it should be, but I think that building a list cannot hurt their decisions. Above all, it generates discussion on who wants who killed, which will give juicy information to the town.
To further give solid opinions, a few people I want on that list include: Annul: Reasons stated above. Deconduo: General scummy feel (Obviously I need to explain this further, but I'll do that when i get the time.) iGrok: More scummy play, including apposition to clearly town plans, putting down of plans without putting forward alternatives, and fanning arguments. (More on this to follow)
I agree with you points on annul, but I think he can bounce back. I don't feel it was that detrimental, considering the topic was the item game and mayoral talk. The only thing we ignored was the lynch decision.
I feel both deconduo and iGrok were just following the annul conversation I felt they needed to give their opinions. I haven't felt the same way you do. Maybe that's just because they are supporting me.
I think orgolove is a better choice. He mimicked annul in trying to put dirt on my claim without giving an alternative, which annul had (unfortunately for our readers). I'd like to hear more on dec and grok when you get the chance.
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On March 25 2011 15:17 orgolove wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 14:43 bumatlarge wrote:I think orgolove is a better choice. He mimicked annul in trying to put dirt on my claim without giving an alternative, which annul had (unfortunately for our readers). I'd like to hear more on dec and grok when you get the chance. Except I did - note how I voted and supported Kav within my first few posts. Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 14:43 bumatlarge wrote: I feel both deconduo and iGrok were just following the annul conversation I felt they needed to give their opinions. I haven't felt the same way you do. Maybe that's just because they are supporting me. So if you're elected mayor, you'll overlook scummy behavior as long as they support you? lol in that case I'll support you as well! Seriously. Are we really electing this guy who's shown such a clear instance of bias and "favoritism" for the mayorship? There's a better choice out there.
When you're blindly supporting Kav? He hasn't posted any reasons on deconduo and I think iGrok's actions are perfectly explainable as town. I haven't much reason why these two are suspects, and until Kav gives his reasons or maybe you do (lol perish the thought), I don't feel they have shown much scuminess.
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On March 25 2011 15:39 orgolove wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 15:30 bumatlarge wrote:On March 25 2011 15:17 orgolove wrote:On March 25 2011 14:43 bumatlarge wrote:I think orgolove is a better choice. He mimicked annul in trying to put dirt on my claim without giving an alternative, which annul had (unfortunately for our readers). I'd like to hear more on dec and grok when you get the chance. Except I did - note how I voted and supported Kav within my first few posts. On March 25 2011 14:43 bumatlarge wrote: I feel both deconduo and iGrok were just following the annul conversation I felt they needed to give their opinions. I haven't felt the same way you do. Maybe that's just because they are supporting me. So if you're elected mayor, you'll overlook scummy behavior as long as they support you? lol in that case I'll support you as well! Seriously. Are we really electing this guy who's shown such a clear instance of bias and "favoritism" for the mayorship? There's a better choice out there. When you're blindly supporting Kav? He hasn't posted any reasons on deconduo and I think iGrok's actions are perfectly explainable as town. I haven't much reason why these two are suspects, and until Kav gives his reasons or maybe you do (lol perish the thought), I don't feel they have shown much scuminess. Blindly? I just trust his reasonable attitude and scumhunting abilities, both what he's showing right now and from previous experience, much more than your blue "slip" and power play gamble. Thanks to you, the entire first day has been wasted so far on debate of your alignment, when we have 30+ other players, 1/3rd of them of which are black or red. What we need is levelheaded analysis and not a hotheaded accusation just based on how someone doesn't support you.
Like I am attacking annul right? You slunk in behind him and said exactly what he did. That isn't good town play. It seems like you just twist what he says.
On March 25 2011 04:32 annul wrote: here is the problem with bum's plan
if you are a red, you want to take down the blacks. you know that a blue's interests are split between killing red and black. not ONLY red. if you are a red, the only night harm you have is from the blacks (other than vig etc). so you have an incentive to wait.
if bum is a red, then a real blue knows that the blue team (as empowered greens, essentially) has 4 players to take down 10. A ONE FOR ONE TRADE IS A BAD TRADE FOR A BLUE IN A GAME WITH 10 "SCUM" AND 20 NONSCUM. bum knows this. the black team cant know if bum is red or blue here (if he isnt black) and the red team cant know if bum is black or blue (if he isnt red). the existence of the second scum team makes this entire logic very different than it would otherwise be. the fact one scum team is bulletproof also fucks with the logic.
it is not so ironclad that a lack of a CC means bum is a blue. that is all i am arguing. i am also arguing that bum got an alignment PM and not a role PM, so his claim that there is "more to the cops except a PM circle" is very very very suspicious. further, this could be a play to draw medic help knowing he is a red/black and he might as well just steal a medic. who knows. many ways that bum can not be honest here.
all of the above can be added to the fact that i have proven earlier the logic behind giving mayor to an item game player. item game players are already going to be the first kill targets at night. we need to have the chance to give us as good a chance to win item game as the black team has.
tl;dr not counterclaiming bum, but the fact no CC exists doesnt mean he is a blue, and in fact it makes logical sense for there to not be a CC. also, vote an item game player mayor, even if not me. but vote me <3
On March 25 2011 04:52 orgolove wrote: Sorry. I've been busy with trip preparations - I have to drive ~1000 miles back and forth this weekend, and need to do a checkup on my car etc etc. Anyway - How can we trust bum when he roleclaimed so early in the game? He's a great player - I don't think any decent actual blue would take the risk of revealing his role so early. He might actually be a black, trying to draw hits and confusing us with fake checks.
I'm thinking of what happened with annul in.. I think it was salem mafia or something - where he did an early roleclaim as a godfather, and everyone believed him after a cop confirm. That was absolutely disastrous for us.
There really is no logic for us to believe bum.
These are a page apart.
I don't think you said anything annul did not. Annul could say the scummiest thing on the planet, and if you say the same thing in a different way, I'm more inclined that you are mafia.
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On March 25 2011 16:05 annul wrote: i was of the opinion that what TL lacked were strong townies willing to argue their point if they thought they were right. apparently its a policy lynch now? are you fucking kidding?
what else would anyone be talking about on night 0 if not the mayoral elections? im sorry if you are too lazy to read 50 pages but thats on you, dont blame me for playing the game.
this is why i play this way on early days: go big or go home. but you know what i DID do? i got fuuuucktons of people on the record in a huge, huge way in some cases. even if i didnt win the argument, my long term play won the day.
but things change and i adapted. my play is fluid. i find it hilarious how kav, et al pretty much admit i am a town but they still want to get rid of me. warning sign much? we do not have many chances to take out the TEN scum in the game, you know.
I have to admit I agree here. You may not like long threads but annul was giving valid points and it caused a lot of people to speak up. Unless annul did something more scummy then disagreeing that I am blue in INSANE MAFIA, then I don't really feel he's that great of a target.
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Alright I have to work, but I'll be home around 12am EST. I've read through and I like the direction of the thread now. Remember this is the process I will be using now and for the rest of the game.
1 - Present analyses, information and accusations. Behavior > information as of right now. 2 - I will discuss the most convincing arguments with my circle. We are all town here, so unless you want to insult my team's intelligence, I suggest you at least trust our opinion. 3 - We will present our verdict! Town of course can readdress anything, and after this lynch, will be the ultimate decision.
The lynch candidates as of now: annul orgolove lemonwalrus iGrok deconduo
Meapak has a nice analysis on annul, but maybe comment on his latest posts as well, I would like to see what you think of those. Kav put up iGrok and deconduo as potential scum, and I'd like to hear more on those.
Hopefully when I come back I can organize this a little better. (Sorry annul, if my circle still thinks you are the best lynch, Im going to listen to them)
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Oh and RoL, since you agreed with Kav's scum thoughts, why don't you help him out and analyze who you think is scummy. I don't see much reason to wait for day 2 to get you scum-saw revving
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Alright Im back, I've only skimmed the thread but I seem to notice a few things.
1) You want me to give you targets for certain things. I'll give suggestions of course, but saying "I need so-and-so checked immediately" is a huge no-no especially in insane mafia. I will give you lists of people I'd like to keep alive and people I am suspicious of, but if you have a power role and are town, I trust your decisions on what to do with it. I am here to be a voice to our town-aligned faction and to give our opinions on what town generates. I will not be the definitive word on how this game progresses. Only scum who want to take orders from me on how be as townie as possible want definiteness. I think both factions have accepted that I am going to be mayor and have already commenced working around it.
2) Item game people have a plan, should we listen to them even though they have a likelyhood of scuminess? YES! And do you want to know why? There are no blues in the item game, which means I know JACK SHIT about the item game. There are 4 townies in there, and I think the town is competent. It literally is a small mafia game inside this one. The best part? There are no scumbuddies. Black and red are on two different teams and the rest is town, which means everytime a IG player backs up another, I can be fairly certain that is the product of town. Scum's only influence on item game, it appears, is how well they can convince the others. Have you looked at who is in the item game? 1. Coagulation 2. darmousseh 3. Jackal58 4. annul 5. Tackster 6. Lemonwalrus Have you ever tried to pull a fast one on Coagulation, annul or jackal? FUCK NO YOU HAVENT, because they are paranoid as balls. And experience with darm tells me he can tell bullshit from bullshit. I dont know tack and LW as well, but from what I read the aren't stupid. I'm going to trust what they say together.
Hopefully that gives a bulk of answers. I'll try to get individual questions now and make sure my team knows whats up.
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On March 26 2011 13:00 LSB wrote: You may not discuss or hint what mod sent you the PM
Yeah, uh, don't cheat. LSB made it very clear on what you can and can't talk about in the thread, at least to certain people. (OH GOD DONT HURT ME LSB)
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