On February 25 2011 06:34 LunarDestiny wrote:
I read about the last three pages and found not very strong reasons that Annul is scum.
I don't see much scum tell in his vote switch from Chaoser to Gmarshall. Annul did justify his vote on Gmarshall on why his plan is bad.
Another thing people keep mentioning is the aggressiveness how Annul is playing which looks like how he played in XXXV where he was scum. The difference is there he was accusing LSB being scum with flawed reasons. This game, he actually justified his vote and did provide reasons unlike the old "LSB postings are spams and have few contributions."
I played with Annul many times before and it seems that he is always aggressive on day1.
XXXV: Accused LSB mafia because he spams and don't contribute much.
Merc Mafia: Claimed medic to me (day vig) and planned to have 100% town victory.
Survivor Mafia (ongoing): After the quick 3 people alliance, he rallied and formed the counter 5 people alliance to take control of the game.
This game compared to other games I played with Annul, I consider that he is playing less aggressive.
This post is prime example of day 1 defending of a dead mafia. It soft claim defends annul. He compares the behaviour of 3 games of annul, 1 red, 2 town. In each of the three games he played very similarly except in game 1 as mafia he used bad logic to get someone killed.
The link here is between this current game and that game, he was playing much differently from his town norm, revealing him as red. This would easily be seen from the looking from game as town and game as red of annul, but instead he tries to link all 3 games under the same style, when 1 was definitely different. Misrepresenting the facts is something one would do to defend ones teammate.
I did not misrepresented the facts. Before that post, town was accusing annul on a bad reason: aggressiveness. I found annul being less aggressive than the games I played with him. I was showing that annul play aggressive regardless he is town or mafia and that shouldn't be the reason why he is lynch. You stating that the games are in different setups just further shows Annul plays aggressively regardless of game setup and he is an aggressive player.On February 25 2011 07:58 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +LSB: Storytime! Why Annul was an easy read in XXXV
1) He mad up stuff and pushed stuff that didn't exist
Check, this game he's pushing GMarshal, saying GMarshal is clear mafia, although there is literally nothing in his accusation
2) Besides responses, he posted nothing else
Look at Annul's posts. How many of his posts deal with things other than Gmarshal or defending himself? I can't find any.
Looked over Annul's posts:
1) He posts are generally short and don't have much content to them. I do find Annul saying Gmarshall is mafia based only on his circle thing is not convincing.
2) This is the part I disagree. Annul did what most people will do in this situation. He attacked someone whom he believe is mafia and defended himself when he was in huge danger of being lynched. If he didn't go after someone, ok... since not everyone got a mafia read on day1. And his defense on himself is normal behavior.
To determine if he is really mafia, you have to look at the time when he felt pressured and tried to redirect the lynch to another person (Gmarshall in this case) and if there are any support from others. People did pointed out Gmarshall's circle thing is a horrible idea but no one voted for him after Annul's switch.
Again he slightly defends annul here by trying to use a wifom defense for annul, while then redirecting to another player. He also mentions how people pointed out how bad the idea of the circles was, when the major objectors were gryff, annul. Seraph posted against it briefly (flipped red), lunar did, and ohn did. Almost no one else was opposed. Reservations possibly had in that the groups created could have been fixed if gm is red. However, when we know two of the main group flipped up red, and one of which is the person lunar is defending you see a pattern.
Now keep in mind he was fairly active in day 1.
Lets move on to day 2.
You keep bring up that I defend annul. Yes, I did. I will admit that I misread annul and didn't vote for him. Look at the reasons for my day1 vote, I stated my reasons for not voting annul. Go analyze that post. If I didn't vote for annul and did not give reason for not doing so, that should instead be suspicious.
Where is the WIFOM defense you mentioned because I can't find it?
I believe there are more opposers than supporters for Gmarshall's circle thing. Reread that part of the thread.On February 27 2011 14:44 LunarDestiny wrote:
Back. Catchup time...
So mafia are targeting experienced players like they always do.
People are talking about annul's lynch and there is a bus on annul. First of all, I don't think mafia would sacrifice one of their member to make others more safe. So those who voted annul early or greatly accused him aren't likely to be mafia. Those who jump onto the bandwagon or voted late without giving good reasons should be looked at.
Post doesn’t say much other than recap generally what everyone was talking about, fairly useless.
Don't post it if you have nothing to say about the post or are you just noting that you consider the post as a spam post?
The post states my reason why I don't think Annul was bussed and grouped some players into 2 categories. On February 28 2011 07:18 LunarDestiny wrote:
Barunder wants to lynch LSB and even is willing to go with sacrificing himself first to prove he is not scum.
LSB says Barunder's analysis on him read too much on few posts and contain many WIFOMs.
---
First if Barunder is scum and wants town LSB dead, he won't be satisfy being lynched first. His posts after he 3 essay sized posts did not follow up with the aggressive natural of the essay sized posts. If he is mafia, he needs to get LSB lynched before he is lynched. Because he is willing to be lynched first, that just defeats the original point of his essay sized posts if he is mafia.
LSB did attacked back Barunder. This is pretty standard play and is very like LSB's play. Look back at XXXV when annul accused LSB as scum with shit posts that didn't make much sense, LSB fought back like how he is now. He justified it as putting some pressure back at his accuser and see if he will slip. Barunder did not and again is willing to be lynched first.
To summarize, I don't think Barunder is scum. LSB is playing his standard in terms of his responds (not saying his alignment is town). One additional thing to point out is that they really believe the other is scum.
Soft defends barunder here making it seem like a mafia wouldn’t do this tactic as it would “defeat” the purpose of it. However since he’s willing to die first would potentially save him from the towns lynch and get lsb killed anyway. Its wifom stuff, but again soft defending a player for no real reason. Post says nothing knew aside from “I believe x is town” and is a summary.
It is not wifom. Would mafia post such a big analysis, not following up, and willing to be lynched first. What is the purpose of that post if barunder is mafia?
Post nothing new? I posted my reasons why I think Barunder is town and also pointed out it is LSB's usual play style of putting pressure back to his accuser.On February 28 2011 09:51 LunarDestiny wrote:Ok. First, I'll admit that my post behavior in this game is weird since I am usually a player who tend to post more than other players. My excuse is being busy.
You also pointed out that I posted a lot more in XXXV. That game was after Pokemafia. Although I didn't played that game, lurker killed that game far more than other games. So I debated ways to out lurkers. At the end of the day, I also did jump on to the LSB/Annul case there and kind of justify my vote. I had a lot more to debate there.
Lastly the pm thing. Here are the whole pm chain I had with Foolishness:
Show nested quote +Original Message From Foolishness:
Oh whoops. probably should've researched that before I asked you =P
But yeah go ahead, every little bit helps!
Original Message From LunarDestiny:
I spent more of my posts talking about how I hate bandwagon...
However, I can help call Annul out by posting how he is playing like he was in XXXV where his postings are similar since they are not logical.
Original Message From Foolishness:
Time to do Foolishness a favor:
Can you vote for annul? I want to pressure him because I'm thinking he's mafia. However I have always been a firm believer in not lynching active players day 1 (no matter what), and I don't want to stray from my norm and have someone realize it >.>
The idea is that we pressure him, then compare everything he says to mafia XXXV and see if he's mafia.
I did exactly what you asked. I called Annul out other than tell him to give reason why he changed his vote to see if his reason is logical or not.
You said that I didn't want to take a side. I refuse to finalize my vote for a player if I don't reason to believe he is scum (however, I do support in putting pressure vote to get people talking). I explained why i don't think annul is scum. Tell me what other side there are except voting annul. At that time, the other two highest vote players (icemac and icanflylow) have 4 votes and their votes are pretty much lurker/inactive votes. I voted icemac to get him talking.
Defense of himself after being accused, in which he said he refused to finalize his vote for a player he didn’t think was scum, then foolishness called him out with
On February 28 2011 10:07 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 09:56 Foolishness wrote:
You directly said in a post (I quoted it on previous page):
"Another thing people keep mentioning is the aggressiveness how Annul is playing which looks like how he played in XXXV where he was scum. The difference is there he was accusing LSB being scum with flawed reasons. This game, he actually justified his vote and did provide reasons unlike the old "LSB postings are spams and have few contributions.""
You directly told me (in PM):
"I can help call Annul out by posting how he is playing like he was in XXXV"
Did I misunderstand something?
Wow, that is 100% what I actually said...
Yes, I only called annul out. What I tried to do is to ask annul for reason why he switch his lynch and see if his reason is logical.
Give me a break dammit, I reply your post after 6 minutes you sent me the pm. I didn't put much thought in my reply. Fault me for not doing what I promised.
Where he admits to agreeing with foolishness on what he promised, and what he delivered was the exact opposite. Clear lie.
He has a few more posts trying to justify his actions day 1, but does not contribute clearly to day 2 discussion or lynches past this.
He starts the day inactive, then proceeds to post about things that give no solid or productive discussion to the game aside from appearing active. He quickly follows that by getting called out for directly lying in the game and admitting he lied.
Interesting.
I responded to these 2 reasons (the pm with foolishness and my activeness) in my previous posts. I still stand by those responses.Day 3
On March 01 2011 04:42 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:31 deconduo wrote:On March 01 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:On February 28 2011 20:13 deconduo wrote:First of all we have
Jackal. He claimed posting PMs is scummy. When asked to explain the logic behind it he dodged the question twice then posted this gem:
On February 25 2011 01:06 Jackal58 wrote:
Decon- We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the posting of PM's. I think it's a bad idea. You don't. I'm over it. It's not an issue worth arguing.
I didn't dodge it. You just didn't like my answer. Ya the one you skipped.
And now you're in a pissing contest over the content of a posted PM.
Have fun.
We got scum here folks.
Here was the post in question:
On February 25 2011 00:46 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 22:41 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 22:35 deconduo wrote:Jackal, you haven't clarified this:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 24 2011 05:31 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:18 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:13 GMarshal wrote:On February 24 2011 02:11 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:00 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 01:56 Jackal58 wrote:
I have received a PM from GMarshall as well. Whoopee. I will probably even answer him.
But posting quotes and copies of PMs is a very scummy thing to do. You can make them say anything. Please stop.
What?
If someone manipulates or changes PMs to say what they want that's a scum caught straight away.
Also as easy for 2 scum or more to edit and post PMs to kill town
While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that's an issue right now, even if that did happen, when the townie flipped green we would immediately go after the people who posted the PM
I understand that. But if we get in that habit scum will use it to kill us at endgame. Better not doing it at all.
So your reasoning is:
Two mafia might edit a PM and post it to gang up on a townie to get them lynched in a lylo situation so therefore don't do it at all ever. Anyone who does post a PM is scummy.
This is so flawed I don't even know where to begin....
What is your logic behind telling people not to quote or post PMs? It honestly does not make any sense to me. It feels an irrational conclusion to jump to.
I did explain it. Go ahead and post PM content. Go ahead and get comfy with it. Go ahead and watch scum use that to destroy town at end game.
I think it's a horrid idea.
I honestly 100% don't understand your logic. From what I can gather you are saying the following. In a lylo situation, 2 mafia 3 town say. Person A + B post PMs showing C is mafia. C denies it and says they are faked. Now according to you,
i)If no PMs were posted previously, people A+B would be lynched.
ii)If a couple of PMs had been posted previously, and people were 'comfy' with it, C would be lynched.
How you managed to get here I have no clue whatsoever. There must be some huge step in logic that I'm missing as to what universe you think this would happen in.
-Your 'explanation' was mafia would use it to destroy town at end game. I gave you an example of your supposed endgame situation. You completely ignored it and simple put it down to opinion.
I'll give my take on this...
Posting pm for no reason is a bad thing because it will reveal information to mafia.
However, there are many circumstances where posting pm is good.
For example, look how Foolishness post his pm with me and find that I didn't do what exactly I promised. That generated one point saying why i am mafia.
If he is mafia and I town, and edited the pm, I can denied it and there goes 1 mafia of the two.
If I am mafia and he town. If I denied the pm and same 1 mafia out of the two.
If both are town, I shouldn't lie.
If both are mafia, mafia is stupid.
Icemac also gave out all pm before he died. It give additional information for town to work with and town can use those to accuse or defend people. Taking those pms into the grave is not as useful.
Your case describes that mafia edit the pm and use them for the late game. This situation only works if the other person mafia is editing the pm from is afk and don't claim the pm is edited. This is huge risk from mafia and certainly mafia would take unless they are desperate.
Your other case say that 2 or more mafia talk in circles and post pm to make themselves look good. This case stands because it would be hard to prove these pms wrong. Also even revealing one of them mafia doesn't prove that the other is mafia believe it could very well be legit pm between mafia and town.
But if we just compare the pro and con of post pm. i find it is beneficial for them to be posted given there is a reason.
So I have to agree with deucenuo on this subject and asking you to describe why it is bad to post pm. Also give your reasons why posting pm is bad. (Does the con outweigh the pro?)
Big ass long post saying how one shouldn’t lie in pms if one is town. However, he was found to be lying from his intereaction with foolishness. This makes him subject of
If I am mafia and he town. If I denied the pm and same 1 mafia out of the two.
If both are town, I shouldn't lie.
If he was town he would have helped foolishness in the way he promised instead of doing the exact opposite (in fact lunar was annuls staunchest defender day 1). He knew if he denied the pm completely it would give himself up as red, then stated as town he shouldn’t lie, in which he did. Why did he lie? To defend his scum buddy annul.
Can you stop calling that a lie? I admit that I didn't do what I said I would do. Tell me you never forget about things. Again, look at my responses to the pm thing and understand what actually happened.On March 01 2011 13:04 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:53 Ser Aspi wrote:Some more bad posts:
On March 01 2011 04:42 LunarDestiny wrote:On March 01 2011 00:31 deconduo wrote:On March 01 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:On February 28 2011 20:13 deconduo wrote:First of all we have
Jackal. He claimed posting PMs is scummy. When asked to explain the logic behind it he dodged the question twice then posted this gem:
On February 25 2011 01:06 Jackal58 wrote:
Decon- We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the posting of PM's. I think it's a bad idea. You don't. I'm over it. It's not an issue worth arguing.
I didn't dodge it. You just didn't like my answer. Ya the one you skipped.
And now you're in a pissing contest over the content of a posted PM.
Have fun.
We got scum here folks.
Here was the post in question:
On February 25 2011 00:46 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 22:41 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 22:35 deconduo wrote:Jackal, you haven't clarified this:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 24 2011 05:31 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:18 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:13 GMarshal wrote:On February 24 2011 02:11 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:00 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 01:56 Jackal58 wrote:
I have received a PM from GMarshall as well. Whoopee. I will probably even answer him.
But posting quotes and copies of PMs is a very scummy thing to do. You can make them say anything. Please stop.
What?
If someone manipulates or changes PMs to say what they want that's a scum caught straight away.
Also as easy for 2 scum or more to edit and post PMs to kill town
While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that's an issue right now, even if that did happen, when the townie flipped green we would immediately go after the people who posted the PM
I understand that. But if we get in that habit scum will use it to kill us at endgame. Better not doing it at all.
So your reasoning is:
Two mafia might edit a PM and post it to gang up on a townie to get them lynched in a lylo situation so therefore don't do it at all ever. Anyone who does post a PM is scummy.
This is so flawed I don't even know where to begin....
What is your logic behind telling people not to quote or post PMs? It honestly does not make any sense to me. It feels an irrational conclusion to jump to.
I did explain it. Go ahead and post PM content. Go ahead and get comfy with it. Go ahead and watch scum use that to destroy town at end game.
I think it's a horrid idea.
I honestly 100% don't understand your logic. From what I can gather you are saying the following. In a lylo situation, 2 mafia 3 town say. Person A + B post PMs showing C is mafia. C denies it and says they are faked. Now according to you,
i)If no PMs were posted previously, people A+B would be lynched.
ii)If a couple of PMs had been posted previously, and people were 'comfy' with it, C would be lynched.
How you managed to get here I have no clue whatsoever. There must be some huge step in logic that I'm missing as to what universe you think this would happen in.
-Your 'explanation' was mafia would use it to destroy town at end game. I gave you an example of your supposed endgame situation. You completely ignored it and simple put it down to opinion.
I'll give my take on this...
Posting pm for no reason is a bad thing because it will reveal information to mafia.
However, there are many circumstances where posting pm is good.
For example, look how Foolishness post his pm with me and find that I didn't do what exactly I promised. That generated one point saying why i am mafia.
If he is mafia and I town, and edited the pm, I can denied it and there goes 1 mafia of the two.
If I am mafia and he town. If I denied the pm and same 1 mafia out of the two.
If both are town, I shouldn't lie.
If both are mafia, mafia is stupid.
Icemac also gave out all pm before he died. It give additional information for town to work with and town can use those to accuse or defend people. Taking those pms into the grave is not as useful.
Your case describes that mafia edit the pm and use them for the late game. This situation only works if the other person mafia is editing the pm from is afk and don't claim the pm is edited. This is huge risk from mafia and certainly mafia would take unless they are desperate.
Your other case say that 2 or more mafia talk in circles and post pm to make themselves look good. This case stands because it would be hard to prove these pms wrong. Also even revealing one of them mafia doesn't prove that the other is mafia believe it could very well be legit pm between mafia and town.
But if we just compare the pro and con of post pm. i find it is beneficial for them to be posted given there is a reason.
So I have to agree with deucenuo on this subject and asking you to describe why it is bad to post pm. Also give your reasons why posting pm is bad. (Does the con outweigh the pro?)
So much you could weigh in on, and you write an essay that boils down:
"posting pm's when theres a reason that gives town more reliable information is good"
Of all the things you could have posted on LIKE SUSPECTS AND WHO YOU THINK IS MAFIA AND WHY, you said something as useless and obvious as that, and make it look like you are good Sir Sherlock Holmes solving cases left and right.
You sir are trying to blend in. Who might want to blend in? DRRR I wonder. Maybe scum?
This post's purpose is to ask jackal to describe what he meant. If I respond to you now, that would just make my post pointless. I promise you (not going to forget this time), that I will give you an explanation after jackal respond to my post or deuceuo's post relating to this subject. ok?
Says he won’t defend himself until jackal answers first? Why would he be so hesitant to defend himself when he has been so happy to defend others all game?
Going to give you an example right now:
You did this huge ass post and give ohn and I to respond.
Someone analyze your post as bullshit.
Would you fight back immediately and lay off ohn and me?
Of course not, you are posting this to get responses from ohn and me.
On March 01 2011 18:10 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +As to what I think about LD? I believe the main arguments against him by Foolishness were 1) not as active in a previous game and 2) inaccurate PMs. I'm not really sure how useful #1 is since people do do things outside of TL mafia and we cannot control that. I believe someone else already mentioned that most people show tendencies in their play, but an experienced(?) player such as LD should know better. #2 is more damning and his subsequent responses were not that strong. I suppose this is as close of a "read" as we've got on a player other than the back and forth between LSB and Barunder.
Again, I have no response to my irregular posting behavior. I usually post a lot in the thread but I tried to cut my spam to minimum in this game. Comparing this game's activeness and aggressive of scumhunting to my previous game (XXXVII) is tricky. First, I was SK in that game who was protown(reason is TL town generally sucks). Also look at my posts that game. I believe a huge portion of them are me trying to scum hunt with clues. I didn't do much analysis that game. I ask any of you to look at my past games (my profile includes them) and compare them to this game. Compare how many analysis there are and how many of the posts are just spams.
The second part is the pm thing. I'll describe what happened, Foolishness can disprove me. If you want the pm chain, refer back near end of day 2.
-I found out that I received a pm from Foolishness asking me to vote annul to pressure him. The reason of this pressuring is to compare his playing style here to XXXV where he was scum.
-That point, I didn't do much research about annul and explained to Foolishness I can't wagon him because I spent most of my post talking about hating bandwagon. However, I DID say this
"However, I can help call Annul out by posting how he is playing like he was in XXXV where his postings are similar since they are not logical.".
-He gave an apology pm saying he should read a bit of my post before asking.
-
This is where I screwed up, I did not do what I said about relating my post to call annul up to XXXV. I just look back at the easily post to call annul out which was the little explained vote change and used that to call him out.
-There was no reminder from Foolishness that I didn't do exactly what I said and I quickly forget about it. It is not what I don't want to do. If he give another pm me about I didn't talk XXXV and annul's behavior, I would write another post calling annul out.
Man if you guys think that is scum-like, I have nothing to say.
Entire defense of WIFOM. If ones defense is purely that, there is the face of their guilt. It just depends if people will eat the block of text and move on.
I basically explain what happened. Any deviation is lying. People can believe it or not believe it.On March 01 2011 19:47 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:On March 01 2011 13:04 LunarDestiny wrote:On March 01 2011 11:53 Ser Aspi wrote:Some more bad posts:
On March 01 2011 04:42 LunarDestiny wrote:On March 01 2011 00:31 deconduo wrote:On March 01 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:On February 28 2011 20:13 deconduo wrote:First of all we have
Jackal. He claimed posting PMs is scummy. When asked to explain the logic behind it he dodged the question twice then posted this gem:
On February 25 2011 01:06 Jackal58 wrote:
Decon- We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the posting of PM's. I think it's a bad idea. You don't. I'm over it. It's not an issue worth arguing.
I didn't dodge it. You just didn't like my answer. Ya the one you skipped.
And now you're in a pissing contest over the content of a posted PM.
Have fun.
We got scum here folks.
Here was the post in question:
On February 25 2011 00:46 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 22:41 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 22:35 deconduo wrote:Jackal, you haven't clarified this:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 24 2011 05:31 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:18 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:13 GMarshal wrote:On February 24 2011 02:11 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:00 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 01:56 Jackal58 wrote:
I have received a PM from GMarshall as well. Whoopee. I will probably even answer him.
But posting quotes and copies of PMs is a very scummy thing to do. You can make them say anything. Please stop.
What?
If someone manipulates or changes PMs to say what they want that's a scum caught straight away.
Also as easy for 2 scum or more to edit and post PMs to kill town
While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that's an issue right now, even if that did happen, when the townie flipped green we would immediately go after the people who posted the PM
I understand that. But if we get in that habit scum will use it to kill us at endgame. Better not doing it at all.
So your reasoning is:
Two mafia might edit a PM and post it to gang up on a townie to get them lynched in a lylo situation so therefore don't do it at all ever. Anyone who does post a PM is scummy.
This is so flawed I don't even know where to begin....
What is your logic behind telling people not to quote or post PMs? It honestly does not make any sense to me. It feels an irrational conclusion to jump to.
I did explain it. Go ahead and post PM content. Go ahead and get comfy with it. Go ahead and watch scum use that to destroy town at end game.
I think it's a horrid idea.
I honestly 100% don't understand your logic. From what I can gather you are saying the following. In a lylo situation, 2 mafia 3 town say. Person A + B post PMs showing C is mafia. C denies it and says they are faked. Now according to you,
i)If no PMs were posted previously, people A+B would be lynched.
ii)If a couple of PMs had been posted previously, and people were 'comfy' with it, C would be lynched.
How you managed to get here I have no clue whatsoever. There must be some huge step in logic that I'm missing as to what universe you think this would happen in.
-Your 'explanation' was mafia would use it to destroy town at end game. I gave you an example of your supposed endgame situation. You completely ignored it and simple put it down to opinion.
I'll give my take on this...
Posting pm for no reason is a bad thing because it will reveal information to mafia.
However, there are many circumstances where posting pm is good.
For example, look how Foolishness post his pm with me and find that I didn't do what exactly I promised. That generated one point saying why i am mafia.
If he is mafia and I town, and edited the pm, I can denied it and there goes 1 mafia of the two.
If I am mafia and he town. If I denied the pm and same 1 mafia out of the two.
If both are town, I shouldn't lie.
If both are mafia, mafia is stupid.
Icemac also gave out all pm before he died. It give additional information for town to work with and town can use those to accuse or defend people. Taking those pms into the grave is not as useful.
Your case describes that mafia edit the pm and use them for the late game. This situation only works if the other person mafia is editing the pm from is afk and don't claim the pm is edited. This is huge risk from mafia and certainly mafia would take unless they are desperate.
Your other case say that 2 or more mafia talk in circles and post pm to make themselves look good. This case stands because it would be hard to prove these pms wrong. Also even revealing one of them mafia doesn't prove that the other is mafia believe it could very well be legit pm between mafia and town.
But if we just compare the pro and con of post pm. i find it is beneficial for them to be posted given there is a reason.
So I have to agree with deucenuo on this subject and asking you to describe why it is bad to post pm. Also give your reasons why posting pm is bad. (Does the con outweigh the pro?)
So much you could weigh in on, and you write an essay that boils down:
"posting pm's when theres a reason that gives town more reliable information is good"
Of all the things you could have posted on LIKE SUSPECTS AND WHO YOU THINK IS MAFIA AND WHY, you said something as useless and obvious as that, and make it look like you are good Sir Sherlock Holmes solving cases left and right.
You sir are trying to blend in. Who might want to blend in? DRRR I wonder. Maybe scum?
This post's purpose is to ask jackal to describe what he meant. If I respond to you now, that would just make my post pointless. I promise you (not going to forget this time), that I will give you an explanation after jackal respond to my post or deuceuo's post relating to this subject. ok?
Respond to what? A pointless argument that I decided was a difference in opinion? Respond to a question I already answered? And then said fuck it when decon didn't like my answer? I felt at the time it wasn't worth having a pissing contest over. You just had an argument with gryff over alleged PM content. That's why I think it's a bad idea. But I said that already.
Only scum would attempt to continue making an issue out of a non-issue.
##VOTE: Lunar Destiny First of all, the pm thing I had is with Foolishness and I did not say his posting of the pm to call me out a bad thing. I am fine with it and glad to explain it.
Now I ask you to give reason why you think posting pm is bad.
To restate my question, give your reasons why posting pm is bad. Does the con outweigh the pro? (find my counter arguments from my post in the pm chain). This is just a simple question.
More WIFOM. Not solid defense.
Read the purpose of the post. The post is to ask for an answer out of jackal and not to defend myself with two lines.On March 02 2011 14:40 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 21:40 Jackal58 wrote:On March 01 2011 19:47 LunarDestiny wrote:On March 01 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:On March 01 2011 13:04 LunarDestiny wrote:On March 01 2011 11:53 Ser Aspi wrote:Some more bad posts:
On March 01 2011 04:42 LunarDestiny wrote:On March 01 2011 00:31 deconduo wrote:On March 01 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:On February 28 2011 20:13 deconduo wrote:
First of all we have Jackal. He claimed posting PMs is scummy. When asked to explain the logic behind it he dodged the question twice then posted this gem:
[quote]
I didn't dodge it. You just didn't like my answer. Ya the one you skipped.
And now you're in a pissing contest over the content of a posted PM.
Have fun.
We got scum here folks.
Here was the post in question:
On February 25 2011 00:46 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 22:41 Jackal58 wrote:
[quote]
I did explain it. Go ahead and post PM content. Go ahead and get comfy with it. Go ahead and watch scum use that to destroy town at end game.
I think it's a horrid idea.
I honestly 100% don't understand your logic. From what I can gather you are saying the following. In a lylo situation, 2 mafia 3 town say. Person A + B post PMs showing C is mafia. C denies it and says they are faked. Now according to you,
i)If no PMs were posted previously, people A+B would be lynched.
ii)If a couple of PMs had been posted previously, and people were 'comfy' with it, C would be lynched.
How you managed to get here I have no clue whatsoever. There must be some huge step in logic that I'm missing as to what universe you think this would happen in.
-Your 'explanation' was mafia would use it to destroy town at end game. I gave you an example of your supposed endgame situation. You completely ignored it and simple put it down to opinion.
I'll give my take on this...
Posting pm for no reason is a bad thing because it will reveal information to mafia.
However, there are many circumstances where posting pm is good.
For example, look how Foolishness post his pm with me and find that I didn't do what exactly I promised. That generated one point saying why i am mafia.
If he is mafia and I town, and edited the pm, I can denied it and there goes 1 mafia of the two.
If I am mafia and he town. If I denied the pm and same 1 mafia out of the two.
If both are town, I shouldn't lie.
If both are mafia, mafia is stupid.
Icemac also gave out all pm before he died. It give additional information for town to work with and town can use those to accuse or defend people. Taking those pms into the grave is not as useful.
Your case describes that mafia edit the pm and use them for the late game. This situation only works if the other person mafia is editing the pm from is afk and don't claim the pm is edited. This is huge risk from mafia and certainly mafia would take unless they are desperate.
Your other case say that 2 or more mafia talk in circles and post pm to make themselves look good. This case stands because it would be hard to prove these pms wrong. Also even revealing one of them mafia doesn't prove that the other is mafia believe it could very well be legit pm between mafia and town.
But if we just compare the pro and con of post pm. i find it is beneficial for them to be posted given there is a reason.
So I have to agree with deucenuo on this subject and asking you to describe why it is bad to post pm. Also give your reasons why posting pm is bad. (Does the con outweigh the pro?)
So much you could weigh in on, and you write an essay that boils down:
"posting pm's when theres a reason that gives town more reliable information is good"
Of all the things you could have posted on LIKE SUSPECTS AND WHO YOU THINK IS MAFIA AND WHY, you said something as useless and obvious as that, and make it look like you are good Sir Sherlock Holmes solving cases left and right.
You sir are trying to blend in. Who might want to blend in? DRRR I wonder. Maybe scum?
This post's purpose is to ask jackal to describe what he meant. If I respond to you now, that would just make my post pointless. I promise you (not going to forget this time), that I will give you an explanation after jackal respond to my post or deuceuo's post relating to this subject. ok?
Respond to what? A pointless argument that I decided was a difference in opinion? Respond to a question I already answered? And then said fuck it when decon didn't like my answer? I felt at the time it wasn't worth having a pissing contest over. You just had an argument with gryff over alleged PM content. That's why I think it's a bad idea. But I said that already.
Only scum would attempt to continue making an issue out of a non-issue.
##VOTE: Lunar Destiny First of all, the pm thing I had is with Foolishness and I did not say his posting of the pm to call me out a bad thing. I am fine with it and glad to explain it.
Now I ask you to give reason why you think posting pm is bad.
To restate my question, give your reasons why posting pm is bad. Does the con outweigh the pro? (find my counter arguments from my post in the pm chain). This is just a simple question.
Which I answered. Perhaps my answer was too simple. Posting PMs in my opinion is an easy way for scum to influence town. Particular at end game. That is
"IN MY OPINION". If you disagree with my opinion fine. It's not worthy of an argument. Unless you are scum and wish to appear that you are contributing. Because that's all it is. Appearance. And
Took out the damn image...We'll going to have a difference of opinion here. You find it pointless to discuss and I also start to find it bothersome. Gryffindor, in a couple of post above, pretty much responded for you... He described many situations and came up with a conclusion that posting pms is generally bad. His next sentence states it depend on how it was used. This is the part I most agreed with. I will reiterate again that if there should be a reason why the pm is being posted: contradiction found, being lynched, role fishing detected, etc.
Your center point was that end game pm posting will screw town up. Again, I find your statement too restricted. Yes, if it is at the point of lynch wrong and lose AND people start popping pms which is powerful enough to demand a lynch, then it will be damn suspicious. I don't remember this happening in the games I played but it could happen and screw town open. If mafia want to guild a mislynch, most of the time they'll just claim dt (ex. XXXVI:bumatlarge->me, insane: Pandain->Kenpachi).
----------------------------------------------------
Response to Ser Aspi:
Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:53 Ser Aspi wrote:Some more bad posts:
On March 01 2011 04:42 LunarDestiny wrote:On March 01 2011 00:31 deconduo wrote:On March 01 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:On February 28 2011 20:13 deconduo wrote:First of all we have
Jackal. He claimed posting PMs is scummy. When asked to explain the logic behind it he dodged the question twice then posted this gem:
On February 25 2011 01:06 Jackal58 wrote:
Decon- We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the posting of PM's. I think it's a bad idea. You don't. I'm over it. It's not an issue worth arguing.
I didn't dodge it. You just didn't like my answer. Ya the one you skipped.
And now you're in a pissing contest over the content of a posted PM.
Have fun.
We got scum here folks.
Here was the post in question:
On February 25 2011 00:46 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 22:41 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 22:35 deconduo wrote:Jackal, you haven't clarified this:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 24 2011 05:31 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:18 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:13 GMarshal wrote:On February 24 2011 02:11 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:00 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 01:56 Jackal58 wrote:
I have received a PM from GMarshall as well. Whoopee. I will probably even answer him.
But posting quotes and copies of PMs is a very scummy thing to do. You can make them say anything. Please stop.
What?
If someone manipulates or changes PMs to say what they want that's a scum caught straight away.
Also as easy for 2 scum or more to edit and post PMs to kill town
While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that's an issue right now, even if that did happen, when the townie flipped green we would immediately go after the people who posted the PM
I understand that. But if we get in that habit scum will use it to kill us at endgame. Better not doing it at all.
So your reasoning is:
Two mafia might edit a PM and post it to gang up on a townie to get them lynched in a lylo situation so therefore don't do it at all ever. Anyone who does post a PM is scummy.
This is so flawed I don't even know where to begin....
What is your logic behind telling people not to quote or post PMs? It honestly does not make any sense to me. It feels an irrational conclusion to jump to.
I did explain it. Go ahead and post PM content. Go ahead and get comfy with it. Go ahead and watch scum use that to destroy town at end game.
I think it's a horrid idea.
I honestly 100% don't understand your logic. From what I can gather you are saying the following. In a lylo situation, 2 mafia 3 town say. Person A + B post PMs showing C is mafia. C denies it and says they are faked. Now according to you,
i)If no PMs were posted previously, people A+B would be lynched.
ii)If a couple of PMs had been posted previously, and people were 'comfy' with it, C would be lynched.
How you managed to get here I have no clue whatsoever. There must be some huge step in logic that I'm missing as to what universe you think this would happen in.
-Your 'explanation' was mafia would use it to destroy town at end game. I gave you an example of your supposed endgame situation. You completely ignored it and simple put it down to opinion.
I'll give my take on this...
Posting pm for no reason is a bad thing because it will reveal information to mafia.
However, there are many circumstances where posting pm is good.
For example, look how Foolishness post his pm with me and find that I didn't do what exactly I promised. That generated one point saying why i am mafia.
If he is mafia and I town, and edited the pm, I can denied it and there goes 1 mafia of the two.
If I am mafia and he town. If I denied the pm and same 1 mafia out of the two.
If both are town, I shouldn't lie.
If both are mafia, mafia is stupid.
Icemac also gave out all pm before he died. It give additional information for town to work with and town can use those to accuse or defend people. Taking those pms into the grave is not as useful.
Your case describes that mafia edit the pm and use them for the late game. This situation only works if the other person mafia is editing the pm from is afk and don't claim the pm is edited. This is huge risk from mafia and certainly mafia would take unless they are desperate.
Your other case say that 2 or more mafia talk in circles and post pm to make themselves look good. This case stands because it would be hard to prove these pms wrong. Also even revealing one of them mafia doesn't prove that the other is mafia believe it could very well be legit pm between mafia and town.
But if we just compare the pro and con of post pm. i find it is beneficial for them to be posted given there is a reason.
So I have to agree with deucenuo on this subject and asking you to describe why it is bad to post pm. Also give your reasons why posting pm is bad. (Does the con outweigh the pro?)
So much you could weigh in on, and you write an essay that boils down:
"posting pm's when theres a reason that gives town more reliable information is good"
Of all the things you could have posted on LIKE SUSPECTS AND WHO YOU THINK IS MAFIA AND WHY, you said something as useless and obvious as that, and make it look like you are good Sir Sherlock Holmes solving cases left and right.
You sir are trying to blend in. Who might want to blend in? DRRR I wonder. Maybe scum?
I did that post because I greatly disagree with jackal's attitude towards posting pms. Pretty much every mafia game, there will be someone posting pms and nobody was ever against that (at least that is what I remembered). I seen players posting pms to show alignments after someone from the pm circle dies and I like that.
One other reason is depending on Jackal's response, I can look at his previous games and look at where he was town and was he ever impressed or benefited from pm being posted. From the recent games where jackal and I were in where town was screwed by pm posting. I might have missed them (don't axe me in games I die early because I don't closely follow the game after I die...), but I am pretty sure there were none.
Summarizes posts made from Gryffindor.
Responds to ser aspi with WIFOM of why he was waiting on jackals response, but doesn’t actually do the analysis in which he was asked to do. Why would he not do analysis if he is town? What better way to clear yourself.
Post where is the WIFOM in the post because I can't find it.
Look at how I play in games, I never quote ton of posts and analysis the heck out of them when I am town, mafia, or 3rd party.On March 03 2011 05:22 LunarDestiny wrote:So we have three potential lynch targets: Jbright, Seraph, LSB.
Jbright who played 1 game on TL don't have much I can use past history that I can based off of. Ser Aspi did compared Jbright's town play in Orpah and found contradictions. But compared to...
Seraph who Foolishness did an analysis on, Seraph's lynch is reasoned better. I know that some of the reasons are kind of similar to the reason of my lynch (posting behavior/activeness)...
Foolishness's conclusion of Seraph:
Show nested quote +Conclusion: Seraph's posting rates shows he's either mafia or a bored townie. When we look at his past games, we see a somewhat aggressive posting style (not afraid to speak his mind) and concern for the well-being of the town. This game there is a clear lack of that as his posts just indicate that he's here watching.
I do agree that I remember Seraph as someone who is not afraid to speak his mind and it does seem weird in this game where his posts are pretty calm. I also agree that mafia would prefer to watch and not to slip if they are not forced to post.
The other reason Foolishness brought up is Seraph was "bored" after the game started and even if he hasn't gotten a blue role as town, he should be excited for this game after town got 1 mafia lynched on day1. I skim through Seraph's post and found many of his earlier posts are short/one liner. But he did say on his post "498" that he wasted his 6666 post and way later on his post "644," he indicated that he is playing a lot in pm land. If that is the case, then he wasn't "bored" and was more active than what it seemed on the thread.
I want to ask if people can justify that they were having pm conversation with Seraph. Although if Seraph is mafia, other mafia can lie and justify this reason but if enough people justify for Seraph, I doubt they are all mafia. This can also be used later on to group people together.
The last person is LSB.
The first reason is he surviving after two night. The second night is more suspicious since a medic was killed a night before. I understand this is not a strong reason but should take into consideration later on because I do find it weird that mafia is not trying to gun down the 1 of the 2 top player.
The next reason is the KP contradiction:
It doesn't make sense at all. No vig claimed yet and there is no incentive for not claiming. They already shot and will only act as vanilla townie. The benefit of justifying the KP issue is way more than absorbing a kill as vanilla townie.
People already mentioned that the KP do not adds up.
I find it especially weird on day on night 1, there were 3 deaths. On night 2, there were 3 deaths (none claimed by vig) and 2 roleblock claims. Therefore if the roleblock claims are true, it indicates that mafia have more than 2.5 KP. I have no idea why won't mafia spend the extra KP on the extra kill. Also what happened that the missing KP on night 1 if mafia do have so many KPs. Again, not using these KP on extra kill but on other powers is a waste.
I want to point out that Jackal also claimed being roleblocked. LSB shouldn't be voted only because of this KP contradiction
It just doesn't make sense at all and I hope an explanation can be made.
If we were able to justify the case, I would like to fall back to voting Seraph.
Those who pmed with Seraph, please claimed. You don't have to post the pms if you don't want to, but at least describe how much you interacted with Seraph.
Summarizing the game day to this point. Anyone reading the thread would actually know how it reached this point. Instead of offering anything insightful he instead just recaps the day. So far pretty useless.
I am stating what is on my mind and how I see the current situation that diverting the lynch to 3 candidates is bad. I gave reasons why LSB should be voted if he is found lying and willing to fall back my vote on Seraph because of his behavior.On March 03 2011 09:41 LunarDestiny wrote:
Well, we haven't reach an answer to the KP contradiction case and I am not convinced LSB is scum. I would prefer to wait one more night to have a greater grasp of mafia's KP. If LSB is town, that alone adds pressure to mafia. Also, I don't want to divert the lynch of Jbright and Seraph.
I'll fall back to voting Seraph.
##VOTE: Seraph
Jumps on a bandwagon that flipped a red, still no providing any insightful posting or analysis of his own.
I jump on the wagon when the votes were damn close. I gave reasons why I did that. Before accusing me, look at yourself.On March 03 2011 09:50 LunarDestiny wrote:
Also, I don't find Jbright's case stronger than Seraph.
Jbright's case was based on orpah and this game where Seraph was based on of three games.
Jbright losing his will to play is what expected from newer players. Yes, mafia can also use this as excuse to lurk. But when a newer player is pressured and accused, it is reasonable that they lose their will to play (I did it on my third game where for the first time, a huge post was thrown at me).
I do have a reason that Jbright is a better lynch and I don't think they were mentioned.
Seraph's posts were better and more analyzable. On the other hand, Jbright pretty much given up.
Mentions he would prefer to have jbright killed over seraph (seraph flipped red) this is a subtle defense but believe since a player gave up the other should be killed. Defends the person he votes for, odd behaviour. If you think someone is red you should be pushing them, or at least analyzing them (he fails to provide his reason for why he finds jbright more likely to be red than seraph).
READ DAMMIT. There are 2 paragraphs (bigger paragraph and smaller paragraph).
In the bigger paragraph, I said why Seraph is a better lynch.
Only in the smaller paragraph, I give a counter reason why Jbright is a better lynch