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On October 30 2010 03:07 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:After reading the thread this morning I'm going to leave my vote for Pandain. I want to feel secure with the mayor and as great as Fishball's "circle" might be, the possibility of a mafia being in that circle is to great a chance to take. I also think the mayor being able to communicate privately is a recipe for trouble, Coag says it best: Show nested quote +my problem is this. If we elect you as mayor.. you will have communications with people outside of this thread(pm) that will influence the game and could be extremely vital to scum hunting.
I would rather have a mayor that has transparency.. any communications he makes will be public so we can keep an eye on him.
Actually, the possibility with mafia being in the circle (extremely likely), is exactly why I'm trying to run for Mayor. If not for this possibility, this would be way overpowered.
It's not like I have some secret information that I'll be sharing with the circle. Let me do a very rough and simple break down of how it might look like.
If I become Mayor, I will request the other 5 to role claim to me. Depending on the roles, assignment for their Day/Night actions will be made. We roll from there. If anything doesn't add up, I'll be sure to know.
Again, this is a just a very rough presentation, and there is a lot more we can do to utilize this circle. Like presenting all it's members when the time is right, etc.
The Mayor is basically the most monitored role in the game. If I do anything extremely suspicious, the Town can easily lynch me off.
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On October 30 2010 03:16 DCLXVI wrote: I don't understand why fishball thinks that he needs the protection by way of bodyguards. Are there no medic claims in your circle fishball? Since you proclaimed yourself leader of the circle shouldn't you be able to coordinate protection and dt searches within your circle to cover yourself?
First, I did not ask anyone to claim to me yet. Secondly, how do you know there is a Medic in my group? Third, how do you know the claim is true?
Bodyguard protection is absolute. Medic Protection is not. (Not including the virus here)
I never proclaimed myself "the leader of the circle". I only said my role is CRUCIAL to the circle. You mentioned DT coordination; Same thing, refer to the top of my post.
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On October 30 2010 03:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 03:22 Fishball wrote:On October 30 2010 03:07 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:After reading the thread this morning I'm going to leave my vote for Pandain. I want to feel secure with the mayor and as great as Fishball's "circle" might be, the possibility of a mafia being in that circle is to great a chance to take. I also think the mayor being able to communicate privately is a recipe for trouble, Coag says it best: my problem is this. If we elect you as mayor.. you will have communications with people outside of this thread(pm) that will influence the game and could be extremely vital to scum hunting.
I would rather have a mayor that has transparency.. any communications he makes will be public so we can keep an eye on him.
Actually, the possibility with mafia being in the circle (extremely likely), is exactly why I'm trying to run for Mayor. If not for this possibility, this would be way overpowered. It's not like I have some secret information that I'll be sharing with the circle. Let me do a very rough and simple break down of how it might look like. If I become Mayor, I will request the other 5 to role claim to me. Depending on the roles, assignment for their Day/Night actions will be made. We roll from there. If anything doesn't add up, I'll be sure to know. Again, this is a just a very rough presentation, and there is a lot more we can do to utilize this circle. Like presenting all it's members when the time is right, etc. The Mayor is basically the most monitored role in the game. If I do anything extremely suspicious, the Town can easily lynch me off. But the thing is, if you have the ability to converse in secret, and you end up being a Mafia Mayor, we will have NO idea if anything is fishy. You could have them roleclaim, give them assignments, and what have you, but we will never know if you want to cover something up that goes on in PM land. The Mayor is the most heavily watched, but the possibility of the Mayor hiding things scares me. Everything the Mayor does should be out in the open, nothing should be private.
Fair enough. Like I said last night, I cannot prove myself, I can only convince. At this stage of the game, the only way to prove your innocence is death.
If town wants to play it safe, a quick alternate scenario I can think of is to let me roll and try to gather as much information as I can for a few cycles. I then may or may not announce the remaining members, and release whatever information I can (depending on situation), and have myself lynched to prove my role and alignment.
Another way is to have DT's check me first night. I'm sure there are multiple DT's in the game, whether they are role checking DT's or alignment DT's. If nobody says anything, then all is good. But if there is any discrepancies, we'll know that either I am lying, or the DT is. (unless the DT is insane, then this game is really INSANE)
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On October 30 2010 03:33 BrownBear wrote: My vote as to who we pick for mayor? I vote we go through the thread to find a decently active person who's posted relatively pro-town, but who hasn't yet tried to become mayor. This is probably a lot safer than trying to figure out which of the candidates is the least scummy. For all we know, the entire scumteam has just tried to run for mayor in a hilarious, balls-out gambit.
Also, don't listen to Fishball's idea for roleclaiming. If he's scum and he gets it, he can just roleclaim, the mafia can elect him godfather, and he can choose to appear as his claimed role. BOOM, almost undetectable scum mayor, town's in a major shithole.
Please read my post above.
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On October 30 2010 03:46 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 03:40 Fishball wrote:On October 30 2010 03:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2010 03:22 Fishball wrote:On October 30 2010 03:07 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:After reading the thread this morning I'm going to leave my vote for Pandain. I want to feel secure with the mayor and as great as Fishball's "circle" might be, the possibility of a mafia being in that circle is to great a chance to take. I also think the mayor being able to communicate privately is a recipe for trouble, Coag says it best: my problem is this. If we elect you as mayor.. you will have communications with people outside of this thread(pm) that will influence the game and could be extremely vital to scum hunting.
I would rather have a mayor that has transparency.. any communications he makes will be public so we can keep an eye on him.
Actually, the possibility with mafia being in the circle (extremely likely), is exactly why I'm trying to run for Mayor. If not for this possibility, this would be way overpowered. It's not like I have some secret information that I'll be sharing with the circle. Let me do a very rough and simple break down of how it might look like. If I become Mayor, I will request the other 5 to role claim to me. Depending on the roles, assignment for their Day/Night actions will be made. We roll from there. If anything doesn't add up, I'll be sure to know. Again, this is a just a very rough presentation, and there is a lot more we can do to utilize this circle. Like presenting all it's members when the time is right, etc. The Mayor is basically the most monitored role in the game. If I do anything extremely suspicious, the Town can easily lynch me off. But the thing is, if you have the ability to converse in secret, and you end up being a Mafia Mayor, we will have NO idea if anything is fishy. You could have them roleclaim, give them assignments, and what have you, but we will never know if you want to cover something up that goes on in PM land. The Mayor is the most heavily watched, but the possibility of the Mayor hiding things scares me. Everything the Mayor does should be out in the open, nothing should be private. Fair enough. Like I said last night, I cannot prove myself, I can only convince. At this stage of the game, the only way to prove your innocence is death. If town wants to play it safe, a quick alternate scenario I can think of is to let me roll and try to gather as much information as I can for a few cycles. I then may or may not announce the remaining members, and release whatever information I can (depending on situation), and have myself lynched to prove my role and alignment. Another way is to have DT's check me first night. I'm sure there are multiple DT's in the game, whether they are role checking DT's or alignment DT's. If nobody says anything, then all is good. But if there is any discrepancies, we'll know that either I am lying, or the DT is. (unless the DT is insane, then this game is really INSANE) I know you have said that you can't prove yourself, and I don't necessarily think you shouldn't be mayor. I think you are a good candidate. However, I feel it is necessary to play Devil's Advocate and propose worst case scenarios. In your alternate scenarios, would you have been voted Mayor at that point? I'm not sure mayor can be role checked... Having yourself lynched would be nice as a consolation that we trusted the right person, but if you are a good Mayor, it doesn't really help us much. Can the Mayor be rolechecked?
Oh that's fine. Hence why I'm trying to reply as much as I can and share my thoughts on my lunch break right now.
Yes the alternate scenarios would be after I'm elected as Mayor, because if not, I'm almost as good as dead. To be honest, you should be asking "can the Mayor be alignment checked?", or both .
On October 30 2010 03:46 deconduo wrote: DTs can't check the mayor (usually). Not sure if thats the case for this game but in general the rule is no night action, regardless of what it does, affects the mayor while bodyguards are alive.
Depends on the game. We've had games that the Mayor was checked before. Also, we don't even know what kind of DT's are in this game. I only mentioned role/alignment DT's as they are the most common types, but this game is "insane" so who knows.
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On October 30 2010 03:49 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 03:46 deconduo wrote: DTs can't check the mayor (usually). Not sure if thats the case for this game but in general the rule is no night action, regardless of what it does, affects the mayor while bodyguards are alive. This is true, as far as I know. Fishball, I remain unconvinced.
Read my other post above again.
And hey, it's your call. I've thrown as much as I can out there, but at the end, it's your vote. If you think other candidates would be a better choice, then that's the way it is.
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On October 30 2010 03:54 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 03:06 Fishball wrote:On October 30 2010 02:56 deconduo wrote:What we want in a mayor is activity (but not spamming), good thinking and experience. As was said before, I think bumatlarge is the best candidate. Pandain might be a good choice too, but the yum yum stuff does get on my nerves so I'm biased against him If you are just flat out comparing resumes, my resume should top these two. Don't trust the whole circle thing as I said. I'm voting for bumatlarge for now.
If I'm not mistaken, Bum retracted his run. You would have to vote for Pandain or one of the others.
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On October 30 2010 03:56 Pandain wrote: I would be alright with Fishball for mayor I guess, but again, I just don't know why he has to. His reason is protection, but we have medics, no? This circle can be incrediably useful and a valuable asset to town, and if what he says is true, that "his role is crucial to the circle", then why must he go to the extreme and go mayor?
To me, being mayor is more than just having protection. Sure, it's useful, and obviously a lot of us running might have valuable roles, but really what Fishball has is an unconfirmed circle, with an unconfirmed Fishball, the real power coming from the ability to pm. An extra vote IS helpful in mafia, and with only ~15 people in the late game is a very valuable asset, in addition he gets to decide the first day lynch.
Finally, one possibly very important question: Can the mayor be infected with murrayitis?
Yes he can. I've asked Artnais already.
I also asked "How long does it take for Murrayitis to kill a player?" His answer: "It kills them on the night after infection."
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On October 30 2010 03:56 Nemesis wrote: Hmm I am a bit tempted to switch my votes.
I think what Fishball can do is reveal whoever is in his circle and have those people confirm that they are in the circle so if something suspicious is happening within the circle, the town can easily see it. But the problem with this is mafia might start picking off people in the circle one by one.
Can you replace those who died in the circle with new ones?
I didn't ask, but I'm like 99.9999999999% sure you can't do that. That's just OP. And like I said, I'm NOT the leader of this circle, so it wouldn't be up to me if there was a leader anyways.
Anyways, breaks over so I'm back to work. Keep discussing, and I'll address any questions/concerns later.
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On October 30 2010 05:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:artanis told me it is possible that people can be converted into a neutral circle (the one fishball talked about) and that masons may be active.
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Mason
so they can convert people into their PM circle I guess, passing on the power of PMing. that could be very interesting and it would change the dynamics of my whole gambitsomehow it makes me more suspicious of fishball, but I need to think about it more
Alright, I'm back at home for now.
I would like Artanis to confirm this. Personally, this was not stated in the PM's sent to me.
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On October 30 2010 04:42 jcarlsoniv wrote: because mayor can't be rolechecked thats why im not voting for fishball
Seems like Artanis confirmed that Mayor CAN be role/alignment checked.
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On October 30 2010 04:16 Node wrote: My inclination is to go with Pandain. I agree with whoever it was who asked why Fishball has to be mayor as well as the informant from his circle. What can he do as mayor that he can't do already? What crucial information does he gain by being mayor, and why can't he just bring it to the town anyways from a non-leadership position?
I think I've answered this question at least twice already. I cannot/would be extremely hard to proceed without absolute protection.
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On October 30 2010 04:14 kitaman27 wrote: Hey all, sorry I'm late. Just got off my flight from Liquidvania. You wouldn't believe the lines. People must be dying to get out of there (sorry I couldn't resist.)
I haven't decided who to vote for as Mayor yet, but I do have two requests.
First off, I would like to see an additional person claim from this "secret 6 person circle". If it exists, odds are incredibly likely that a mafia member is one of the members. If that's the case, then the mafia already knows the identities of all six members. So what harm is there to come forth to the town identifying yourself?
Secondly, I would like to hear how the Mayor plans to use their first day lynch. Will it be based on the majority opinion of the town, a suspicious set of posts during the first 48 hours, or a power player you are intimidated by? Do you already have an idea of who you want to use it on? In order for a candidate to receive my vote, I require they address this issue.
Good luck all ^_^
I will add my comments regarding the circle coming forth in a later post.
As for the first day lynch, I currently have no solid candidates. I'll start thinking about it after I win, if I do win. I'll basically list several options, take consideration of what the rest of the players has to say, as well as any other candidates they bring up, then make a decision from there and state my reasons.
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On October 30 2010 08:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Fishball doesn't need the mayor role to scumhunt within his small group whereas my plan is for open coordination, immunity from death would be important. By no means do I think it's a bad idea to vote for Fishball.
Actually, from a sense, I do need the Mayor role to scum hunt "within my small group", especially after I've decided to come out, there is no turning back.
It will all make sense when you know my role.
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On October 30 2010 07:58 Ace wrote: Dr.H and Fishball - both of you are pretty much in the same boat. You offer the fact that you're ability is valuable, that you can confirm things if you get the Mayor role and it's a major benefit to the town.
Both of you have played Mafia before so why run on this platform? You SHOULD be able to run without revealing so much critical information on Day 1. If neither of you gets Mayor you're a good target for scum kill now. If there's so many people with the ability to communicate then why couldn't you just keep quiet, use your ability Night 1 and then start owning faces Day 2? As it is you've given up a lot of information in a desperate plea to get elected and, if you are as good at this game as you think you are you should know that's a big no no.
My vote is going to bumatlarge if he's still running, or Pandain. No one knows anyone else's alignment right now except for Scum. That being said I would have voted for Fishball if he didn't try such an illogical gambit for Mayor.
You've seen me play in your own games, and other games. You know I never really like to come out so early in the game and draw this magnitude of attention to myself.
I've thought about it for a some hours yesterday and went with this decision. But yes, as brought up many times, if I do not get Mayor, I'm as good as dead. But at least I gave it a shot.
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As for people bringing up the idea of having the circle come forward, I've put some thought into it.
If the circle remains hidden to the public, the Mafia can try to remain within and get as much intel as possible, while we'll be trying to do the same thing as well. If the circle comes public, the Mafia might as well off these members one by one. Keep in mind, there is a chance that there are no Mafia members in the circle (though very not likely), but regardless of this possibility, Mafia can plant confusion among the remaining members, and mislead the town.
Also, if the circle comes forward and god forbids, gets eliminated, it would defeat the entire purpose.
I'm not exactly against this idea, but I just want everyone else to think it through a bit more and provide more input, possibility a better alternative. At the end, this would not be my decision, but the other players'.
PS. A correction I have to make. I said I've came in contact with 4 other players earlier, this was a mistake. I've only came in contact with 3. The remaining 2 have not contacted me. This does not mean they haven't contacted each other, which I would not know.
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On October 30 2010 09:40 Hyperbola wrote: It's really pointless for me to vote for myself at this point so I guess I'll vote for Pandain. The other two prime candidates are all discussing secret societies and whatnot, and even though I'm all for those types of roles, I believe the mayor should really be a figurehead for the whole town. 1. It would be really difficult, and not to mention disadvantageous, for the mayor to prove they are a free mason or something along those lines 2. The mayor keeps the rest of the town out of the loop (because there wouldn't be a way to transfer secret data) and therefore causes confusion which can lead to unwarranted bandwagoning. 3. If the mayor dies, how will the circle prove itself to town afterward? After losing all leadership, the town will flop and scum will have it's way with the remains. And as for Pandain, I have seen his play style from the previous game and think he would make a good mayor. If he turns out to be mafia, and unless he has flawlessly acted out the role, people would notice and he'd be gone in a blink of an eye.
Actually, if not obvious enough, I never intended to "maintain" a group of secrecy for a long period of time. This is simply not possible, unless you can confirm everyone's alignment in that group.
Quoting myself on page 18, I even suggested the following.
On October 30 2010 03:40 Fishball wrote: If town wants to play it safe, a quick alternate scenario I can think of is to let me roll and try to gather as much information as I can for a few cycles. I then may or may not announce the remaining members, and release whatever information I can (depending on situation), and have myself lynched to prove my role and alignment.
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On October 30 2010 09:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:41 Fishball wrote: As for people bringing up the idea of having the circle come forward, I've put some thought into it.
If the circle remains hidden to the public, the Mafia can try to remain within and get as much intel as possible, while we'll be trying to do the same thing as well. If the circle comes public, the Mafia might as well off these members one by one. Keep in mind, there is a chance that there are no Mafia members in the circle (though very not likely), but regardless of this possibility, Mafia can plant confusion among the remaining members, and mislead the town.
Also, if the circle comes forward and god forbids, gets eliminated, it would defeat the entire purpose.
I'm not exactly against this idea, but I just want everyone else to think it through a bit more and provide more input, possibility a better alternative. At the end, this would not be my decision, but the other players'.
PS. A correction I have to make. I said I've came in contact with 4 other players earlier, this was a mistake. I've only came in contact with 3. The remaining 2 have not contacted me. This does not mean they haven't contacted each other, which I would not know. As far as I see it if Mafia start killing off town aligned members of the circle, they incriminate themselves really in the end. This puts a lot of pressure on mafia as to how they choose their kills and they have to very carefully consider their activity within the circle.
Let's assume one of the likely scenarios. There are 6 of us, 1 of them is red. Mafia starts killing a couple, 4 remaining, 1 of them is red. At this point, it cannot be helped that town will divert some of it's attention here and try to hunt for that 1 red. If down decides to lynch one of the most "suspicious" one and get lucky enough, they'll lynch the red, but if not, Mafia just got a free kill and the situation drags on. At the very end Mafia will only 1 member, but eliminates the circle entirely as well as any coordination within, as well as causing chaos, confusion, and waste town lynches if used. If town does not use their lynches at all, the Mafia call still eliminate the circle at a different pace.
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On October 30 2010 09:47 Lexpar wrote: I'm voting for Bumatlarge. Honestly I'm not very impressed by how any of the other candidates have been conducting themselves.
Bum has been honest, helpful, and has some experience behind him. I know he hasn't posted in like 30 minutes (ie. 45 pages omfg), but we shouldn't forget about his candidacy and bandwagon onto Doc.H, and certainly not Pandain.
Again, Bum has my vote.
You can vote for anybody for all I care,
But
On October 30 2010 09:47 Lexpar wrote: Bum has been honest, helpful, and has some experience behind him.
Experience I don't deny, but seriously? At least quote something you think that is "honest" and "helpful". How do you know the other candidates are not "honest? are not "helpful"?
Some of these posts from certain players, regarding why or why not they vote for certain players are just mind boggling. infinitestory caught another one below.
On October 30 2010 09:28 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 08:58 NB wrote: so far we have 3 people who most likely to be mayor: Pandain, fishball, Dr.h
Panda: i think he would be the most reasonable choice since his first election post looks really clean o.O or as Dr.H said: "transparent"
Fishy: i dont know about this guy... he claimed that he has some sort of mason going on... and i dont trust any group of towny... there is always important information in there being shared and there always could be a spy.... really fishy
Dr.H: lots of people voting for him since he has some great posts on what he would do once he become a mayor. Let me tell you: He has never been a towny b4 in the history of mafia => he is a Veteran mafia and a shitty towny (no offends). Those people who did bandwagon and vote for him could easily be a group of mafia just voting for their leader... Dr.H will be my Last choice what so ever.
for now, i will keep my vote on my self and consider to change it on to the most reasonable person in the end! Your logic for electing Pandain is pretty flimsy. We want a mayor who: 1) Is a good analyzer and an experienced town player 2) Can be scrutinized or somehow confirmed as a townie. 3) Has a role that requires protection Now, ideally we get a mayor who is strongly all three (and ends up being townie under scrutiny). DrH, according to his posts, satisfies 2 and 3, especially 2, and I feel like he can carry out 1 as well. Fishball claims to satisfy 3, but his circle hasn't materialized, which makes me suspect him. Last in my book is Pandain, who claims SOFTLY to satisfy all 3. Emphasis on softly, because he only said he had a "valuable blue role" and could give "indirect confirmation." No real plan for action, unlike the other two candidates, as far as I saw. On top of that, you claim that DrH's bandwagon is suspect, but Pandain had an even larger bandwagon before DrH... why does that not trigger your red flag? It feels almost like you're fabricating reasons to put Pandain first and everyone else last. Odd, to say the least. I want to hear a bit more explanation on these points, NB.
When reading through the past 10-20 pages, there are quite a few posts like these out there. I suggest any decent minded town aligned players to pay attention to these people.
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On October 30 2010 10:04 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:55 Fishball wrote:On October 30 2010 09:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 09:41 Fishball wrote: As for people bringing up the idea of having the circle come forward, I've put some thought into it.
If the circle remains hidden to the public, the Mafia can try to remain within and get as much intel as possible, while we'll be trying to do the same thing as well. If the circle comes public, the Mafia might as well off these members one by one. Keep in mind, there is a chance that there are no Mafia members in the circle (though very not likely), but regardless of this possibility, Mafia can plant confusion among the remaining members, and mislead the town.
Also, if the circle comes forward and god forbids, gets eliminated, it would defeat the entire purpose.
I'm not exactly against this idea, but I just want everyone else to think it through a bit more and provide more input, possibility a better alternative. At the end, this would not be my decision, but the other players'.
PS. A correction I have to make. I said I've came in contact with 4 other players earlier, this was a mistake. I've only came in contact with 3. The remaining 2 have not contacted me. This does not mean they haven't contacted each other, which I would not know. As far as I see it if Mafia start killing off town aligned members of the circle, they incriminate themselves really in the end. This puts a lot of pressure on mafia as to how they choose their kills and they have to very carefully consider their activity within the circle. Let's assume one of the likely scenarios. There are 6 of us, 1 of them is red. Mafia starts killing a couple, 4 remaining, 1 of them is red. At this point, it cannot be helped that town will divert some of it's attention here and try to hunt for that 1 red. If down decides to lynch one of the most "suspicious" one and get lucky enough, they'll lynch the red, but if not, Mafia just got a free kill and the situation drags on. At the very end Mafia will only 1 member, but eliminates the circle entirely as well as any coordination within, as well as causing chaos, confusion, and waste town lynches if used. If town does not use their lynches at all, the Mafia call still eliminate the circle at a different pace. Incoming WIFOM; Mafia may also want to keep the circle alive for the purposes of manipulation. a shrinking circle is harder to manipulate in a lot of ways (easier in some). The bigger they can get their false bandwagons the better. What they would do is hard to say.
This scenario would most likely be likely when I am Mayor and I am Mafia. But right now, Artanis already confirmed Role/Alignment checks will go through with the Mayor, and I also offered to off myself if necessary.
Keep in mind, I'm not at all against bringing the group up front like mentioned. I just want more ideas in how we should proceed with this, and not do it in a haste.
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