Team Melee Mini Mafia II - Page 2
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SouthRawrea
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##Vote Team 1 | ||
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On September 23 2010 09:51 LSB wrote: Response to Incogs post My Mentality: + Show Spoiler + You are setting up a straw man here. Your "positions" are not meaningful. I am not accusing you for your lack of planning per se, but your lack of pro-town mindset. Your posts show apathy. Your posts say "hi I'm contributing" even though its clear you're not. You don't want to say anything about the Ace/BM lynch because you think they're town? Why didn't you say that? All you said was "Ace/BM: This isn't a real accusation. More like Bill Murray Foe on Sight". Sorry, but I don't read "I think they're town" into that statement. You don't want to say anything about Foolishness/Rasta? Why? Instead of saying "these lynches are stupid", a townsperson would be trying to create discussion. In your case, you are just trying to kill it. So I should have tried to get BM lynched? Sorry, I don't push dumb things. He means that you're not really saying anything meaningful in your post. To be pro-town, you have to give reasons for why you say that it's not a real accusation. Wrong again. I don't expect you to do either of those necessarily. I expect you to be pro-town and generate content, stimulate discussion, take a stand, and try to get the ball rolling. Trying to make plans fits into those categories. Sitting around doing nothing does not. Its not that "oh noes LSB isn't plan making thus he is mafia!", its that "LSB normally shows interest in moving the town forward and generating discussion, this game he's not, and thus he is mafia!". See the difference? Take interest in moving the town forward. You've done none of that this game unless under pressure. A lot of the day 1 accusations are baseless. We don't stop people from discussing them because we need stuff to talk about. Its fine if you try to cut off that discussion point, but only if you provide something else better. Frankly you are saying that I should bandwagon and accuse random people. I only accuse someone when I am absolutely sure. I was formulating an accusation, but people wanted it too early. As you can see, I ended up junking my accusations due to Bum's posts To play mafia, you have to apply pressure on to people in order to get reactions especially when the game relies heavily on scumhunting. This game is a prime example in which pressuring is good for info. No, you posted that you were certain Team 2 was mafia after I accused you. You may have honestly been waiting to see what Bum would do, but I can't prove that. Context tells me that its more plausible you just pulled that out of a hat to divert attention from yourself. I don't think any straight thinking townie is going to take your accusation at face value at this point. If you really want to look pro-town, start doing some straight up analysis. It has to be good analysis too. It has to be so good, that I'd rather lynch your target over you. Yeah, and once I start doing straight up analysis, your going to accuse me of taking your bait and being scum. Your going to call this your 'trap'. Good thing I put in this paragraph. Regardless of whether you do it now or not, you weren't doing it before. This is just an excuse to be lazy and not do analysis from this point forward. The real question is, why weren't you doing analysis before this? (BTW analysis isn't the only way to contribute. You can have well-formulated rebuttals, plans etc) Sure I’ll post analysis once I figure out something. But it’s not going to be because I’m trying to appease you. It’s because I’m going to try to take down the mafia. You can never actually figure something out in mafia based on someone's behaviour. You can have a theory at best. This was a poor attempt at a defense or just defense of poor play. | ||
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On September 23 2010 12:10 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: @ this whole LSB vs. Incognito thing Incog and SR seem to be locked in on LSB because he is supposedly too passive. He's not close to the most passive person here. BrownBear hasn't done much except advocate a no lynch. More importantly, BC hasn't done shit. I don't believe BC has an "I don't care mode." I see his name pop up on MSN often enough. I called him out for his placeholder vote on Foolishness and he didn't ever come back around to move it. RoL, is of course active this game, but that's even weirder than an inactive BC. vote team 6 Nah it has nothing to do with being passive. He comes out with a strong accusation against my team and then fails to followup or explain himself properly. I'm having quite a dilemna right now because I know very well that it's obviously considered anti-town behaviour to not post much at all and so I'm looking to the inactive teams. The problem I have is that I can't shake the feeling that the mafia may be an active team as well. I've got to go for now but I'm going to look over Team 6 when I get back from school. | ||
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On September 24 2010 03:57 meeple wrote: States that SR is a new player and a scum giveaway and they implicate team 1. I'm going to assume that you mean that he said that I was an obvious scum rather than someone who revealed scum easily. If I'm making any wrong assumptions excuse me but, shouldn't you read the post before you quote it? Conclusions: I think we should examine some of the players that bandwagoned on Team 1... especially Team 2 since we know BM had some serious concerns about them. Just a couple things here before I actually go look team 7 because of this: On September 24 2010 03:15 YellowInk wrote: ##Vote Team 6, BloodyC0bbler and RebirthOfLeGenD Review their posts to see their contributions. It won't take you long. What on earth? That is the worst attempt I've seen at redirecting suspicion. I also have an idea about a different mafia team but I'm going to see if I can make good connections first. | ||
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Initially in this game, Yellowink was concentrating quite heavily upon having Bill Murray prove himself to the town as he was of the accord that we should consider doing a policy lynch. This in general was a horrible idea for this game as we simply did NOT have the townies to be wasting our available lynches. I'm not quite sure if he was aware of the type of game it was at this point in time but regardless of any possible ulterior motives, this is a good chunk of his whopping total of 11 posts. On September 21 2010 06:41 YellowInk wrote: So there has been some good discussion occurring. As is typical, there are plenty of flaws in arguments. The key here is to figure out where people are trying to be productive (granted, a difficult task on day 1) and where people are trying to look like they're being productive or otherwise staying out of the line of fire. I am satisfied with Incognito's further discussions. I would like to hear more from BloodyC0bbler and RebirthOfLeGenD. BC has not had much to say, and I don't feel RoL has contributed very effectively. What I find wrong with this post is that he avoids pointing out these so-called flaws and then assumes a position of authority where he is "SATISIFED" with Incognito and wants more posts from some other players. That's just the way it reads at least. The only problem I find as is common in scum behaviour is that they don't quite practice what they preach. On September 21 2010 13:39 YellowInk wrote: Alright. I'm pretty convinced. The short version: No lynch is bad. This team's posting has been either unproductive or supporting anti-town ideals. ##Vote: Team 6, BloodyC0bbler and RebirthOfLeGenD Current thoughts on blues: If I were a medic, I'd probably cover either myself, team 4, or team 8. Not sure who I'd poke at if I were a DT yet. Immediately in this game, he attempts a lynch at Team 6, perhaps hoping for a bandwagon. It's quite annoying however how he gives us a super short version of his reason labelled "The short version" and avoids giving a long version and begins using flowery, unexplained terms such as town ideals to make himself look pro-town. On September 21 2010 22:44 YellowInk wrote: So I am presented here with a problem. I still find it more likely that Team 6 is mafia than Team 1, though I agree with what most people have had to say about Team 1. After my last post, it was my intention to go into greater detail about why I believe what I do about Team 6 after a few hours and got some reactions. However, it is far more important that a lynch occurs that I would be 'ok' with than a no lynch than to potentially divide the town among targets and allow a no lynch to occur. Therefore: ##Unvote Team 6 ##Vote Team 1, LSB and Pyrrhuloxia With respect to RebirthOfLeGenD's amazing rebuttal, here is why no lynch is bad. + Show Spoiler + As has been previously stated, it is critical to scum hunt, not protect innocents. On this premise alone, the default correct action is to hang. We cannot expect to make any significant informational gains from day 1 to day 2. The only hard and useful information we could gain is if a blue takes a successful action and conveys this information to the town in a convincing fashion. This assumes both that the blue exists and that the blue takes the successful action. Otherwise, the only knowledge we even get is who it is that the mafia choose to kill. This information is rarely useful in actually tracking down mafia since they will often simply choose a target because it is most ripe - one which they think is relatively unlikely to hang and relatively unlikely to be protected by a medic. Consider as an alternative how useful it might be if we could extend day 1. Post analysis is the only way to track down scum in the beginning. The truth is that this carries on to day 2 in almost every game. As in almost any game of mafia, the town does not have the luxury of waiting until they feel super secure that team X is mafia. Unfortunately we do not have the option of extending day 1 to draw out more information, but we cannot choose to give up a lynch. The purpose of a no lynch is for specific endgame situations. These have been outlined previously, but I will include them here for completeness. Suppose you have 3 town, 1 mafia, and no blues. Choosing no lynch here does not really hurt the town since if the town mislynches, the town loses, but on the no lynch you will be left with 2 town and 1 mafia. Now add in to the mix that the town has a blue among their 3. In this case the no lynch is very town positive. There's a chance the medic could successfully protect or the DT could find the scum. This argument can be extended out to similar endgame situations a day earlier as well. Consider also that medic saves sometimes buy us an extra day. If we use a no lynch early (giving up a kill to the mafia 'for free'), this is like the reverse of a medic save. If we end up with an even number in the endgame because we used a no lynch in the early game, we have gained nothing from our use of no lynch. Day 1 no lynch is very bad. Okay there are two ways of looking at this post: 1) He is making a bandwagon. 2) He is being consistant with his Day 1 lynch argument. The only thing that really makes option one a more likely candidate is the way he says he agrees with people about team 1 but avoids actually saying anything other than the fact that he finds them suspicious. Finally, he comes back in day 2 and starts voting team 6 again with no explanations and tells us to look to them. Yes, I've been reading there posts but there are other suspicious people as well. After going through this, I'm unsure of team 7's actual alignment because all YellowInk has been posting about is that Team 6 is mafia and stuff about the fact we should lynch on day 1. The thing that concerns me though is that he never really explains why team 6 is mafia. He just displays a constant routine of voting for them early in the day and giving a 1 line explanation to explain why. So obvious mafia or unhelpful townie? Either way, I'm going to humour him and look into Team 6 deeply (I got sidetracked a whole bunch today and yesterday) and see just what he's accusing them of. | ||
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On September 25 2010 04:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I like this analysis. I feel like its where I was aiming with mine but I did it a lot more sloppy because I did it at 5am T_T Yeah I woke up at 7:30 and did this before I headed off to school. I half-expected there to be mistakes because I kinda rushed it. I'm actually going to go through a whole re-read instead of just team 6's posts. I've got time to spare before I have to go somewhere and I'm not willing to trust the vibes I'm getting from people just yet. On September 25 2010 04:41 YellowInk wrote: The problem with the vote on my team is that the logic is fundamentally flawed. Very similar arguments point much more heavily at T1. It would make much more sense to hang T1 then give T7 a much harder look should they flip red. I could continue my point about how you should elaborate about such things especially since you find this so important but I'll let that slide for now just because it's getting much too repetitive for my liking so I'm going to ignore this claim. Should we hang, we will come up vanilla town. There will be little information gained since the arguments are backwards. It really makes me wonder what is going on in Incog's head. He struck me with a town vibe mid to late day 1, but then presented the backwards argument to hang T7 before T1 on day 2. This just doesn't make sense to me. It makes sense to me if T1 and T8 are mafia. Then Pyrr can freely back me up on hanging T6 and defend me since either hang is good for them. Also in this case it means T6 just sucks. Maybe BC didn't really have time to play, idk. The second bit isn't quite important but Incog did say that you were mafia mid day 1. Now I'm not saying Incognito is to be trusted and he could very well be manipulating all of the town in which case he's doing extremely well but he's been posting very proactively and being pro-town. I have no idea where you got the idea that he struck you with a town vibe mid-late day 1. I would also advise people to go back through every post that has attempted to accuse me (personally). Note how deeply my words and intent has been twisted in particular cases. This, in the end, is what puts me on the T1/8 track more than the T6/?? track. Okay so what's the point of not posting any explicit information? Your posts are basically your opinions with no analysis of any sort to back them up. I'm not saying that your opinions are wrong but at least make an effort to show that they have some substance behind them. Also note that this final switch back to T1 is putting my neck on the line since driving for a T6 kill would have been more likely to save me. I just hope that if we do hang that in future days the town will look and analyze for themselves rather than continue playing this super passive game. Better yet, hang T1 and we'll go from there. [red] At first this seems okay but then you realize that if the mafia team was T7, T6 that his vote on T1 would make alot more sense if you consider a scenario where he's mafia. ##unvote ##Vote: Team 1, LSB and Pyrrhuloxia Just as a response to this because I feel that it is partially aimed towards me, I put my comments in red. Now, enough getting distracted! I've gotta review the entire game up until this point. | ||
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On September 21 2010 04:08 LSB wrote: That's not a slip up. We are pretty certain that team 2 is mafia. I just want a few more posts from them. The "we" in this post indicates that to me. On September 21 2010 09:46 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I honestly don't know why LSB is suspicious of team 2. He said "we" were somehow almost certain that team 2 was mafia so maybe he has another partner I don't know about, given that I posted earlier in the thread to say SR was being SR. They're obviously not communicating however through PMs because Pyrrhuloxia said this afterwards and so LSB must've misunderstood Pyrr and this is when LSB begins backing off. It seems to me that LSB was just trying to take Pyrr's lead and screwed up. In my personal opinion, this nullifies any arguments that LSB's pressure on team 2 was scummy behaviour. His defenses are also quite unusual for a mafia where he states his mentality at the time as a defense. Just as an additional example you can see that LSB is taking Pyrr's lead in this game: On September 24 2010 07:50 LSB wrote: Um that’s not a defense. That’s a possible explanation. Pyrr explained it quite well He agrees with his teammate and then refers to his explanation. Finally although I dislike how they had defended themselves, they use separate methods of defending themselves which is also quite unusual for a mafia. LSB begins by stating misconceptions and Pyrrhuloxia attacks Incognito's reasoning. I find it odd for mafia to be so uncoordinated and I'd like to see our votes placed elsewhere. They have every reason in the world to work together as they're on the same team but you don't see that happening. I've noticed within my own team, there isn't as many PMs going around (maybe it's just to me D: ) and I find it very townie-like for them to post the way they do in relation to each other. In a normal mafia game, mafia wouldn't explicitly work together as they'd put suspicion on their partners but in this game as they're on the same team, that sort of barrier isn't there. I'm going to see if the same sort of concept applies to team 7 and then choose who to vote from there. | ||
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RoL He more than either of the other two players makes an effort (if he is medic) to act like he knows less about the medic. If he really was a medic, one would assume that he would know that you send in a PM to protect a certain team. There was also absolutely no need to ask the question if he was medic either as most people would assume that you simply protect a team as a whole. He goes on to make that logical conclusion however and answer his own question in the next sentence which means that this was most likely a deliberate post. He was intentionally asking the question to make himself seem like less of a medic. That'd be good medic behaviour. However if he was mafia, this information would slightly benefit him as he would know how effective his NKs would be. The question still needs not be asked though. I believe that there is a higher probability that this was an attempt to sway our opinion of him as a medic rather than find information as a mafia. On September 20 2010 15:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Well a couple of things I saw. Foolishness Medic lists are useful because of the psychological implications of it. Will a medic follow it, will a medic protect themselves, etc. I am really wondering if a medic protects an ENTIRE team or just one of the individuals on it, that will definitely show how strong a medic is. Since this is basically everything x2 I would assume most roles are the same and have entire team implications. IE: DT check effects both members of a team (since no reason it shouldn't) therefore a medic protection should cover an entire team. This next post is consistant with the fact that he didn't claim on day 2 even while under some minor pressure. He doesn't say anything concerning medics that may indicate his role after this. On September 24 2010 18:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: alright to finish that thought, antitown shit follow by terrible idea for medic claiming for no reason. Consistant with his behaviour but the sample available for medic behaviour is small anyhow. Infun Infundibulum is very unclear in this post about what his stance is but he goes on through the post and basically the only thing he says is that medic should claim if he saves anyone including himself. (Sorry I've been deleting what I've been saying here over and over because it's hard to say much about this post) I'm going to leave any conclusions for this post openended because his behaviour isn't quite definitive of anything just yet. On September 22 2010 09:05 Infundibulum wrote: i dont know. it's kind of established at this point that a medic should protect himself. so if the mafia make a hit and it gets blocked, they can assume whoever they targeted was the medic. since the mafia obviously knows who they target, i think it makes sense for the medic to claim then. i'm not sure what happens if a medic protects someone else and blocks a hit though. just precursory thoughts are that if the medic makes a save, he should probably claim - i get the feeling mafia fakeclaims are potentially very powerful in this game Infundi goes on to say that claiming medic by mafia first is risky as they don't know if there really is a medic or not. However there is only a 50% chance of there being a medic which results in a 25% chance of being lynched especially with the town holding the Incog/Infun team in high regard for their contributions. This allows them to out any medics or half-clear themselves and have a higher potential for getting the other team lynched. His reasoning here is moot and could be really interpreted either way. Granted, the argument looks town-like but he goes on to repeat it vigorously in his next post. LSB's argument against him wasn't very strong but the fact that Infundi keeps pushing this as his defense clearly shows that he's thought alot about how their behaviour would relate to the possibility that they've fake claimed medic. Upon seeing this, one can immediately see that it's not as town-like to do this and is much closer to a 50/50. As well, Incognito has been aggressive this game is contradictory to Infundibulum's claim that the two of them avoid doing risky things. Heavy aggression= risky if you're town or mafia. Town may go to lynch you if you're wrong and mafia just endangers themself. On September 26 2010 15:18 Infundibulum wrote: 2. Mafia claiming medic first is really risky because they don't know whether there's a medic or not. In a LyLo situation, it's the town that's at risk and not the mafia. There's no reason for the mafia to suddenly stop playing it safe and go balls out unless they want to "win with style." neither Incog nor I is that kind of player (granted that's a bit of wifom, but if you've played any games with either of us you should know that). Nothing really bothers me other than the last post where he is wrong about Incognito's behaviour this game but tries to use his behaviour as a defence and the fact that he says mafia claiming medic is risky but avoids providing the numbers which actually show otherwise. Incognito This post is quite peculiar to me as Incognito states that medics should protect the Vocal town teams. When you think of vocal team in this game who do you think of? Incognito of course. Clearly he was typing down what he was thinking at the moment and was not doing any sort of long term planning whether he was mafia or not. If he was truly medic, the only reason to post this would be for WIFOM purposes which is perfectly fine. On September 19 2010 18:44 Incognito wrote: With that said, time for some useful discussion. Unlike the TL Mafia game's I've played, this game doesn't have a Godfather. Therefore, DTs are that much more viable, especially in terms of checking QUIET scummy teams. Medics should be protecting VOCAL pro-town teams. This way, mafia is incentivized to take pot shots at the middle of the pool, as shooting the scummy players is obviously bad and helps narrow down the pool, and shooting active players risks running into medic protection. Mafia is also incentivized to be active because a) they can draw medic protection, b) they must avoid being targetted by DT checks. Mafia can't hide at the bottom because there is no GF or miller card to save them. There are also way to few players to be able to effectively hide from DT checks. The beauty is that even if DTs/medics don't exist, mafia must still play as if they do exist. So this strategy does not rely on the existence of blue roles. Incognito has been very aggressive in this game which can be considered pro-town but is also pro-mafia in short games such as these. All in all, I found RoL to be slightly medic-esque, Incognito to be aggressive which isn't necessarily pro-town in this setup and Infundibulum to be slightly non-medic-esque when you see his posts in relation to his partner. I'm going to go out on a limb here and vote team 8. This was a horrible analysis by the way. I wasn't able to come to many conclusions but the few that I have come to have lead me to this vote. I believe Infundibulum slipped up. All these posts have to do with their behaviour as a potential medic rather than town vs mafia btw. ##Vote Team 8 | ||
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On September 27 2010 09:46 Incognito wrote: I'm not entirely sold on Team 2 being mafia. I've made many enemies this game, such as Team 1 and Team 7. And now Team 6. As it stands right now, Team 1/6 are voting for me in (almost) full force. The Team 2 thing makes sense given they're also inactive in a game where mafia doesn't need to be active. However, I'm not sure Team 1's vote accusing is the be all end all because no lynch was the dominant option on day 1. Really, if Team 2 is mafia, the game is already over. Its split between Team 6/8 2 teams and 2 teams. Team 2 is the deciding vote, so if they're mafia, why haven't they wagonned me yet? Not my fault my teammates are lazy >.> and really I'm just voting you temporarily for now. I've mentioned that I managed to only find a bit of information about you two "medic" teams and I'm basically going to go over your actions again before the day is over and think about changing my vote. | ||
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At this point my vote doesn't matter if it is true that Team 1/6 are mafia but I'm going to change my vote just for later game purposes. | ||
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##Vote Team 6 | ||
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