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On July 21 2010 11:57 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 11:38 Pandain wrote:On July 21 2010 11:36 chaoser wrote: Oh, you too Pandain. The contradiction is hardly any contradiction and the only remaining part of your argument against me is that I was very suspicious of BrownBear but then moved on to Subversion when I clearly explain why I did in my post about voting for Subversion. What? It's not much of a contradiction that you appear to be pro town by rallying against youngmini for advocating no-lynching yet all the while abstain yourself (thus helping the mafia). So does that mean all abstainers are "helping the mafia?" If I remember correctly, you at one point also considered abstaining. Show nested quote +Pandain United States. July 18 2010 10:44. Posts 428 PM Profile Report Quote #
Yeah I think we should lynch, just because isn't the mafia going to kill one of us by the next day? Then again, I'd feel horrible if I lynched a good person. I might abstain, but I'll have to see both sides first. I'll decide later. You also advocated against no-lynching in that quote up there as a response to Tricode.
Omg Im sorry I just can't stop laughing. Seriously, I'm sorry, and I'm sure you probably just missed it, but SERIOUSLY?
Pandain United States. July 18 2010 10:44. Posts 428 PM Profile Report Quote #
Yeah I think we should lynch, just because isn't the mafia going to kill one of us by the next day? Then again, I'd feel horrible if I lynched a good person. I might abstain, but I'll have to see both sides first. I'll decide later.
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Fuck it I sound mean. Here, I'll clarify more .
Read the bolded part above and you'll see my stance. I say "I MIGHT abstain", but that's just because this is my very first game so I had to see both sides. However, I said "I think we should lynch."
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On July 21 2010 12:07 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 12:02 Pandain wrote:Fuck it I sound mean. Here, I'll clarify more . Read the bolded part above and you'll see my stance. I say "I MIGHT abstain", but that's just because this is my very first game so I had to see both sides. However, I said "I think we should lynch." Saying you MIGHT abstain means you have a similar thought process as me, that there's not enough information. And I already say that you were for lynching aka against, the no-lynch plan.
Wait so what? Haha I totally misread that . But now your thing doesn't make any since. Yeah I'm against abstaining. So what?
Also, I'll have to reread my statement in its context to explain.
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On July 21 2010 13:01 chaoser wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 21 2010 05:49 chaoser wrote: Does anyone know when day is ending? Tomorrow at 12?
So far the votes have been
Divinek votes for BrownBear at 13:59 DarthThienAn votes Divinek at 13.59 tree.hugger votes Subversion at 14:03 DarthThienAn unvotes Divinek, votes BrownBear at 14:34 d3_crescentia votes DarthThienAn at 14:50 Amber[LighT] votes BrownBear at 22:15 bumatlarge votes DarthThienAn at 22:59 ~OpZ~ votes BrownBear at 1:01 rastaban votes BrownBear at 1:59 Misder votes DarthThienAn at 3:18 Tricode votes BrownBear at 4:02 Pyrrhuloxia votes DarthThienAn at 4:57 bumatlarge unvotes DarthThienAn, votes Subversion at 5:25 DarthThienAn unvotes BrownBear, votes Subversion at 5:30
NEW VOTES:
chaoser votes Subversion at 6:02 BrownBear abstains at 6:52 Pandain votes chaoser at 6:53 Jayme votes Subversion at 8:20 youngminii votes chaoser at 8:32 chaoser unvotes, abstains at 9:25 LaXerCannon abstains at 9:27 SouthRawrea votes for chaoser at 11:19 chaoser votes for Subversion at 12:34
hmm, let's test something. this is either going to bite me in the ass or go very well for me
##vote Subversion
End result: BrownBear - 5 (Divinek, Amber[LighT], ~OpZ~, rastaban, Tricode) Subversion - 5 (tree.hugger, DarthThienAn, bumatlarge, Jayme, chaoser) DarthThienAn - 3 (d3_crescentia, Misder, Pyrrhuloxia) chaoser - 3 (Pandain, youngminii, SouthRawrea) abstain - 2 (BrownBear, LaXerCannon)
People yet to vote: xelin, SiNiquity, lakrismamma, Infundibulum, Subversion, BloodyC0bbler, Citi.zen, zeks, protactinium, roffles
Can't make up your mind eh? If you're testing something, might be good not to say you are. If you really do want to vote for Subversion, care to explain what led to the decision?
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On July 21 2010 12:38 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: #vote for double lynch
i'm not convinced about any of the lynch candidates so far, so i'll wait on that.
Kind of curious about this. May you please explain why you are in favor of double lynching? I'm sure you have a reason, just asking.
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On July 22 2010 01:34 Amber[LighT] wrote: Unvote BrownBear ##Vote: Subversion
Though I think BrownBear's analysis and plan is crappy, we can get more info is we lynch Subversion. Lynching BB just proves that we, as a town, aren't as organized as we would like to be. The Subversion discussion caught a lot of players, many more than the BB discussion. By determining Subversion's role we can pinpoint other key players who were pushing for and against the Subversion lynch. I'm willing to risk putting my name into the hat to get the town on a better path to victory. Depending on the flip, the DT's should try and look at key players involved in the Subversion dispute.
I downright disagree with this. First of all, as Roffles said, I do not believe that little sentence "The mafia aren't making too many mistakes" is grounds to lynch him. Lynching Subversion will gain us NO info whatsoever, since I believe he is NOT mafia.
Also, Pyrr, great article and I do believe we SHOULD keep an eye on darth. However, when deciding who to lynch, I belive we should lynch who is more likely to be mafia (aka Chaoser or Darth). I believe Chaoser is more likely to be mafia. The next day, we can focus on darth.
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On July 22 2010 03:04 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 03:00 Pandain wrote:On July 22 2010 01:34 Amber[LighT] wrote: Unvote BrownBear ##Vote: Subversion
Though I think BrownBear's analysis and plan is crappy, we can get more info is we lynch Subversion. Lynching BB just proves that we, as a town, aren't as organized as we would like to be. The Subversion discussion caught a lot of players, many more than the BB discussion. By determining Subversion's role we can pinpoint other key players who were pushing for and against the Subversion lynch. I'm willing to risk putting my name into the hat to get the town on a better path to victory. Depending on the flip, the DT's should try and look at key players involved in the Subversion dispute. Lynching Subversion will gain us NO info whatsoever, since I believe he is NOT mafia This isn't true. We get a lot of info even if he's town side, because a lot of the town is divided in two camps for and against subversion. Haha, omg (I'm an idiot). Still, lynching an innocent just to see "whos for or against him" is a bad idea in my eyes.
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On July 22 2010 05:35 BrownBear wrote:So seeing as people keep saying "God BB your plan sucks" (BC, Amber), I think it's time to actually defend my plan a little bit, because believe it or not, I'm sticking by it, and I think it's not a bad idea. Out of all of you who said my plan was terribad, there was only ONE person who asked me, either in the thread or PM, what the logic behind my plan was. So yeah, only one person who actually tried to figure out what was going on, instead of just saying "OMG BB sux lets vote for him." So that guy (you know who you are) - thank you. The rest of you, seriously? I'm copying my reply to him here, because I think everyone should read it. If he feels like saying who he is, he can confirm that this is accurate. + Show Spoiler [my PM] + Yo, thanks for the PM.
My inactivity was partially due to me working most of the day, and partially due to me scrubbing and forgetting that the game had started :/
My logic behind vet roleclaim was thus, and I hope this makes sense:
In most TL Mafia setups, hosts choose to mask the number of certain roles actually present in the game (example: they won't tell you how many medics there are, only that medics are present in the game). This is to prevent situations like mass roleclaiming, where the town forces everyone to claim or get lynched, then checks the numbers against the numbers in the OP. This can be a very powerful town move if pulled off correctly, or give the mafia a ton of free blue roles to hit, but regardless, many hosts don't like it happening, so they prevent it from being possible.
In a setup like the one above, its impossible to say "all vets claim" and get an accurate result, because you don't know if there are 1, 2, or 3, or maybe even 4 vets, so it's trivial for scum to sneak a fakeclaim in there. Thus, nobody claiming can really be trusted, apart from DT rolechecks or people who get protected from a hit/vets who soak a hit.
Thus, in a normal game, vets fulfill the role everyone has said they should fulfill: They exists under the radar and hope mafia hits them, so they can soak a hit that would have otherwise killed someone. The problem is, this happens rarely (usually only once a game, if that), and somehow, vets always end up getting lynched. Thus, they aren't always the most helpful role.
My idea was thus: Since BM has told us there are exactly 2 vets in the game, we know there are exactly two vets in the game. In my experience, as I mentioned above, vets don't always do their job (not their fault, its just "doing their job" hinges on another group outside their control targeting them). As we've seen in other mafia games (Caller's RO3K game is a good example), when town bands together and has good organization, it's really easy for town to win. Mafia usually wins if they prevent town from organizing in this way.
Thus, I believe in this setup, the vets would actually be more helpful to town in the spotlight as town organizers, rather than in the shadows hoping to soak hits. As a vet has 2 nightlives, mafia has to waste an entire night just to kill one vet, rather than kill 2 others (and possibly hit other blues like DTs). This isn't something most mafia teams would be willing to do (especially if medics start protecting the vigis - they become unkillable).
So basically, we'd have the vets claim. If only 2 claim, we're set, we just have blues PM them, and start an epic town circle. Vets would know if people were lying because of the openness of the setup: if 3 DTs claim to them, they'd know one of them was scum, and could probably figure it out pretty quickly. This would be a great way to coordinate rolechecks, medic protection, even vigi kills or Mad Hatter Bombs depending on which of those roles we have. Essentially, town would become a well-oiled machine and would screw mafia over.
If more than 2 vets claim, we just have to rolecheck them, nail a mafia, and go back to the first scenario from that point out.
Now, naturally this plan isn't perfect. There are three major flaws:
1) If GF decided to appear as a vet to rolechecks, it sinks this plan completely, obviously.
2) If one or both vets is inactive/doesn't read the thread, that also sinks this plan.
3) The Suicide Bomber. This role exists to counter mass roleclaims and to prevent us from telling medics to protect certain people IN THE THREAD. It's very possible that the mafia might decide to bomb one of the vets - but that's why we have two. Mafia would be trading a scum for a townie.
Hope this makes sense! Ask me if you have any more questions.
omg stfu newb your plan sucks.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Right now I believe the two viable decisions are either Chaoser or Darth. They are the two most likely canidates for actually being mafia. BB and Subversion are just new and people are jumping on them for really miniscule posts. The only one thing that could lead to one of them being mafia is Subversions deciding vote in favor of Hyperbola, however that is still unlikely because it is just as likely that 1)The Mafia didn't know of BM's miscount 2)He just voted at an unlucky time.
So all those who are picking either BB or Subversion (especially BB) I urge you to change your vote and vote for either Darth of Chaoser. I would suggest Chaoser, just because I find him more likely to be mafia than DTA. To me, it still seems that Chaoser is just trying to get people lynched and DTA could be plannign something. Of course we should keep an eye on DTA, but let's not just lynch him and ruin anything he might be doing.
I would urge you to vote Chaoser, but at the very least I humbly request all those not voting either DTA/Chaoser to unvote and pick one of them.
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On July 22 2010 06:04 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 05:46 BloodyC0bbler wrote: BB you just outlined a plan that works in the elimination of a GF + bomber. You know that both are still alive, so arguing your point is what makes the idea dumb. IF GF + Bomber were dead, or hell if even the bomber was dead, it would be marginally reasonable. Instead you keep pushing a plan that we cannot in any way perform as of this moment. Why keep pushing it knowing that it can't succeed at this venture? seriously dude, that is why your getting called out for being dumb. Sigh. What happens in the case that GF decided not to appear as vet? Not a problem. Also, if you actually happened to read carefully, you would notice that i said SB doesn't necessarily break the plan - it just throws a wrench in it. It just requires more careful planning + execution.
I think we're saying that this plan would just be more dangerous than it would be fruitful, so until we have more information to go on we shouldn't do that just yet.
Also, as I currently understand it is quite common for the GF to pick Veteran so therefore it woudl be quite common that the plan would begin to deteoriate. I understand where you're coming from but as of now I do not believe your plan would be the most suitable for the town right now.
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On July 22 2010 06:05 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:03 Pandain wrote: Right now I believe the two viable decisions are either Chaoser or Darth. They are the two most likely canidates for actually being mafia. BB and Subversion are just new and people are jumping on them for really miniscule posts. The only one thing that could lead to one of them being mafia is Subversions deciding vote in favor of Hyperbola, however that is still unlikely because it is just as likely that 1)The Mafia didn't know of BM's miscount 2)He just voted at an unlucky time.
So all those who are picking either BB or Subversion (especially BB) I urge you to change your vote and vote for either Darth of Chaoser. I would suggest Chaoser, just because I find him more likely to be mafia than DTA. To me, it still seems that Chaoser is just trying to get people lynched and DTA could be plannign something. Of course we should keep an eye on DTA, but let's not just lynch him and ruin anything he might be doing.
I would urge you to vote Chaoser, but at the very least I humbly request all those not voting either DTA/Chaoser to unvote and pick one of them.
Don't know where you've been, but I'm not exactly new at this point. I screwed up day 1, but I've played many games here before.
Fine then . Vote Brown bear. .
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At least Brown bear is being more active, and the poitn stands that as of now Chaoser and DTA are showing more characteristics of mafia than these two fella's.
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On July 22 2010 06:12 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:03 Pandain wrote: Right now I believe the two viable decisions are either Chaoser or Darth. They are the two most likely canidates for actually being mafia. BB and Subversion are just new and people are jumping on them for really miniscule posts. The only one thing that could lead to one of them being mafia is Subversions deciding vote in favor of Hyperbola, however that is still unlikely because it is just as likely that 1)The Mafia didn't know of BM's miscount 2)He just voted at an unlucky time.
So all those who are picking either BB or Subversion (especially BB) I urge you to change your vote and vote for either Darth of Chaoser. I would suggest Chaoser, just because I find him more likely to be mafia than DTA. To me, it still seems that Chaoser is just trying to get people lynched and DTA could be plannign something. Of course we should keep an eye on DTA, but let's not just lynch him and ruin anything he might be doing.
I would urge you to vote Chaoser, but at the very least I humbly request all those not voting either DTA/Chaoser to unvote and pick one of them.
that's very scummy of you to say isn't it? Your suggestion gives mafia license to stack votes instead of having to worry about spreading it over different potential targets (4) right now. If later people ask, they can be like well, Pandain suggested it. And how am I more likely as mafia than DTA? Look at Pyrr's huge statement against him against the two weak points you bring against me (that I abstained after saying don't go with the no-lynch plan (which others did too) and then voted Subversion today.) If I get lynch and I flip non-red, people should carefully examine all the people who are hardcore gunning for me (Pandain, youngminii)
I'm not sure if my words carry huge value heh. I mean, almost always when I say somethingn, I mean it to go up to debate in the crowd. Statements such as that are viable, however I feel that even if the mafia all vote up on one person, and he turns out to be innocent, than its a much easier time of deciding whos the mafia in that group.
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Actually, for a long time I have been wondering whether Chaoser is innocent or not. For most of the time I've decided to keep my vote just because if I unvoted, I felt like everyone else would too(Since I have both led and started the accusatoin.)
Therefore, I'm actually really suspecting Subversion. I mean, even if it was a mistake the vote for Hyperbola is suspect. Especially since after a few PM's my arguments for chaoser have diminished and the arguments for Subversion have grown. With that. ##Unvote ##Vote Subversion.
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On July 22 2010 06:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:03 Pandain wrote: Right now I believe the two viable decisions are either Chaoser or Darth. They are the two most likely canidates for actually being mafia. BB and Subversion are just new and people are jumping on them for really miniscule posts. The only one thing that could lead to one of them being mafia is Subversions deciding vote in favor of Hyperbola, however that is still unlikely because it is just as likely that 1)The Mafia didn't know of BM's miscount 2)He just voted at an unlucky time.
So all those who are picking either BB or Subversion (especially BB) I urge you to change your vote and vote for either Darth of Chaoser. I would suggest Chaoser, just because I find him more likely to be mafia than DTA. To me, it still seems that Chaoser is just trying to get people lynched and DTA could be plannign something. Of course we should keep an eye on DTA, but let's not just lynch him and ruin anything he might be doing.
I would urge you to vote Chaoser, but at the very least I humbly request all those not voting either DTA/Chaoser to unvote and pick one of them.
Hi Pandain, remember this post, oh a page ago, and now you've flipped to Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:28 Pandain wrote: Actually, for a long time I have been wondering whether Chaoser is innocent or not. For most of the time I've decided to keep my vote just because if I unvoted, I felt like everyone else would too(Since I have both led and started the accusatoin.)
Therefore, I'm actually really suspecting Subversion. I mean, even if it was a mistake the vote for Hyperbola is suspect. Especially since after a few PM's my arguments for chaoser have diminished and the arguments for Subversion have grown. With that. ##Unvote ##Vote Subversion. Just saying, little sketchy of a switch based on your post above. IF anything you would have swapped to dta. Just saying.
I agree, it looks suscipious but at the same time I truly believe DTA is just a blue whos plannign something. At the very least, I want to give him a night. And Chaoser HAS been defending himself well, no doubt about that.
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Finally, I have been exchanging PM's from mroe expierenced players and they have laid out their arguments fantastically. I am inclined to believe them. You, of all people, should know how hard Mafia is, and I can't just stick to one person because I voted them first. If people offer sufficient evidence, I change my mind. I always have.
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On July 22 2010 06:41 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2010 06:34 Pandain wrote: Finally, I have been exchanging PM's from mroe expierenced players and they have laid out their arguments fantastically. I am inclined to believe them. You, of all people, should know how hard Mafia is, and I can't just stick to one person because I voted them first. If people offer sufficient evidence, I change my mind. I always have. I understand that PMing is a powerful tool but just because someone tells you they're not scum through PM doesn't mean they're telling you the truth. At the start of this game you PM'd me basically asking me if I was scum and I pretty much said 'no'. You completely believed me without any hesitation.
Dude, its the Secret Friendship Alliance. You break that, you''re basically going to hell.
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Actually I recounted and got this.
Brownbear: 3 votes Darth: 7 Subversion: 6 Chaoser: 7 Abstain:3 Amberlight: 1
With one unvoted(Infunblahblahblah)
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Actualyl nevermind, didn't you say you counted voting double lynch as abstain? So 4 abstain instead and no unvoted.
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