On August 05 2010 15:59 Incognito wrote:On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:On August 05 2010 08:07 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:
Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.
Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^.
There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch.
And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled.
Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons:
1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly.
2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch.
3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying.
In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem.
If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan.
So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone.
Your entire argument is based on one assumption: that the hatter is more valuable for their bombs than for setting up a large circle. For my money, in this set-up, I would gladly sacrifice "correctly placing bombs" if it helped set up the circle. No hesitation. You yourself mentioned that games with PMs are broken because they create the "find the invisible invincible detective" problem for the mafia. This situation is so good for the town that it is well worth the life of a hatter any day in my book.
Let me tell you about the bigger picture too. At that moment, the town had no leads. There were leaks every day through PMs, and in fact the "other" DT circle was already infiltrated. One medic was dead already. The town was fractured and, because of the leaks, each night the mafia had a better and better shot to snipe the remaining undiscovered DT. This was the reality that day.
It then happened that Tricode hit BC, then claimed on the forum to be vigi. By coincidence, we had the hatter in our circle. In an IRC conversation with kris and zeks we decided to go with the hatter claim plan (Tricode was never supposed to know the details but unfortunately he had already been told zeks was the hatter). It was a joint decision and I happened to be the vanilla townie in the group. As a townie the worst that could happen is I would get lynched, which was no big deal since the mafia had me on the "to hit" shortlist anyway. If I were to get lynched there would have to be a counter-claim, so at least there would be a red in the open.
I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.
So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.
And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted.
First off, yes, what you did produced results. Which may be a reason why you think your plan is so awesome. But ignoring the assumptions of what actually happened in the game, heres whats wrong.
First 3 paragraphs, yes I get it. Hatters can be legitimately used as the focus for a town circle. The problem is, they have to die to confirm themselves. Otherwise you have ppl claiming to a "hatter" who for all purposes could be a GF. Yes, you know that this is staged and that you're just being the face for the real hatter. But town doesn't know this. So town really has no reason to believe your claim. No, the fact that its open setup and town knows there's 2 KP roles doesn't confirm you when you claim to be the last KP role.
Its not true that an uncontested hatter claim is 100%, because a real hatter who knows you're a fake has no incentive to claim right away. Assume citizen is mafia. Logically, as a hatter, you'd know citizen is lying. Why don't you claim? Well, you could, but that doesn't really solve anything because either of you could be lynched, and town doesn't know who is the fake claimer. The best thing for you to do is place a bomb on citizen (who you know to be 100% red) before asking everyone to lynch YOU. This eliminates the confusion of who is lying, nets 1 red, and hopefully gets town some leads. Far superior than to just claiming outright.
Given that hatter has no reason to claim outright instantly, citizen is not 100% confirmed. Which gives town no reason to logically claim to you. Luckily for citizen and the town, everything was ok. But logically, this is a hole in the plan. Sorry.
For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red.
This would hold true if all the DT claims (2 real + 1 fake) came at the same time. But citizen claimed that he already had a DT in the bag, and he wanted the OTHER DT to come out and claim. Since nobody except citizen can confirm that there are 3 DT claims (unless citizen outs his DT), then no, citizen is again not confirmed. Another hole.
On August 05 2010 12:41 citi.zen wrote:On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:
On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.
This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help.
Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy.
Whatever, I will drop it.
If mafia fake claimed to have their own DT, then yes logically you trust none of the checks. But town would have done it anyway. Either way, a fake DT claim screws with the whole plan also because isn't the whole point of your plan to make a circle? What good is a circle when you don't know what info to trust? And don't say you had a confirmed DT just because one claimed to you.