I am DarthThienAn, and I approve of this message.
TL Mafia XXVI - Page 5
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DarthThienAn
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I am DarthThienAn, and I approve of this message. | ||
DarthThienAn
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On June 08 2010 10:49 LunarDestiny wrote: Votes for Day 2 Lynch Votes for Thegilaboy (4) LaXerCannon pyr0ma5ta CompX bumatlarge Votes for Deucegladlier (11) Deucegladlier YellowInk crate LunarDestiny littlechava Zyrre Thegilaboy MooCow deconduo Hugoboss21 MTF Votes for MooCow (10) AcrossFiveJulys DCLXVI Misder BrownBear zeks sputnik.theory onihunter DarthThienAn (x3) This is the optimistic outcome, 3 groups of voting the next person who switch would be very suspicious and a baller if he does it. This information might prove very helpful in the future. I am so tempted to move now. Tbh, I let the Deuce bandwagon go on purpose. More info for us. But I think he's fulfilled his role for me in terms of information gathering. Hence, MooCow, who leans a bit scummy to me. Not a whole lot, and in a normal situation i wouldn't push for this, but considering the alternative, I am. | ||
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On June 08 2010 10:51 crate wrote: Yes that's what I was referencing with my one hour remark. I know, I saw it. I decided to post that anyway <3 | ||
DarthThienAn
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On June 08 2010 10:54 LunarDestiny wrote: I don't think anyone especially mafia would take the risk and change he vote now. But I am willing to do so. TBH, I didn't look up post from MOOCOW so... AFJ and Misder summed it up pretty well in recent posts. I mostly agree with them. | ||
DarthThienAn
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+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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On June 08 2010 10:57 flamewheel wrote: Rofl. On June 08 2010 10:58 LunarDestiny wrote: Flamewheel, what ROFL? I screwed up or did I made you rewrite your mod post? Was just gonna say, now he has to make a new mod post. lol. On June 08 2010 10:59 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: holy shit when the night post comes up im either going to fist pump or plan to get myself modkilled! no strategic modkills! lol. | ||
DarthThienAn
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On June 08 2010 11:01 crate wrote: By the wording, it's not even a strategic modkill because it doesn't help AFJ's team. lol. I don't even understand the "or" part of it. What is fist pumping supposed to suggest? I mean, I assume that's if MooCow flips red. And if he's town, he's gonna punch himself in the face. Whatever! I was joking anyway lol. | ||
DarthThienAn
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On June 08 2010 11:03 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: best comeback bandwagon ever amirite? lol. yea. Lucky you had me. On June 08 2010 11:03 bumatlarge wrote: wait should i be switching votes, holy crapoly, i think ill just stay on gila boy i guess... ... just ... man. lol. Are you trying to emulate Deuce, now that he's alive? | ||
DarthThienAn
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On June 08 2010 11:05 crate wrote: Hey guys. I think ... there might be MAFIA in this game. I think there might be TOWNIES in this game. | ||
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On June 08 2010 11:12 littlechava wrote: How the fuck can you be inactive as the vigilante. That's the coolest role there is. Well. Until you use it that is. lol. But yea: + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2010 11:10 LunarDestiny wrote: At least now we can take a look at them bandwagons though, eh? | ||
DarthThienAn
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*Important. Give me your opinion.* LunarDestiny: + Show Spoiler + Posts since the game began: 122 (I think. He has a lot) I start with post 130. Note that this will be post by post analysis. Voting history: DarthThienAn for mayor, then YellowInk. Deucegladlier, then MooCow for lynch day 2. Notes: + Show Spoiler + Bolded numbers signifies an example of him contributing / his important posts. #130 “Should we roleclaim or not?” – drops the matter pretty quickly lol. #136 irrelevant #141 meh #155 meh #157 suggests that Flamewheel the Cute might be a clue – this was disproven. #240 supports me for mayor, reason – I am knowledgeable and got screwed last game. #263 elaborates, explaining that I’m a good player (<3). Supports lynching inactives (as I do). Gives advice to DTs, medics, vigilante. To DTs: “Do not do what YellowInk is telling you. His action is very suspicious and those who are suspicious should not run for mayor before they are cleared. “ also advises early rolechecks (I approve). To Medic: protect active pro-townies. Vigi: standard “stay back.” Pretty solid advice. –note, suspicious of Yellow because of clues and running for mayor. #266-68 disapproves of forcing the “DT linking scheme”. More bashing on YI. Disapproves of any clue-linked mayor candidates. #273, 275, 277 Darth best candidate, Yellow no. Pwning Yellow, lol. #296 unrelated #298/299 saying it’s important to have town mayor, ok if pardoner is mafia. #302/303 says there’s heat on the elected mayor/pardoner, because mafia are likely to get at least one elected. #306 Pro Mafia Excel List #312, 319 unrelated #324 asserts that I’m not necessarily a good candidate, but I’m the best atm. #330 advises Yellow to stay away from strongly-worded posts that make him look scummy. #336 “INACTIVE please step up” #348 stresses previous point about having a town mayor, even with a mafia pardoner. Suggests lynch pardoner day 2, assuming town mayor. A noncommittal/lazy suggestion, didn’t follow up / get responded to iirc. #351 asking about modkilling inactives. Wants to lynch (day 1) clue-linked inactive (as did I) #367, 369 says YI posts a lot. Thinks that he’s town based on his (Yellow’s) “Think about it; I post too much to be mafia” argument, which is legitimate (though I word it otherwise, it’s a long argument). Etc. etc., switches his vote to Yellow, advocates Yellow for mayor now. #377 restates why he’s voting for Yellow. #381 Thinks Yellow’s arguments suck, but that he is still protown based on attention-attracting. Emphasizes the importance of having a pro-town mayor again. #383, 384 Follows up on me PMing the inactives to get in the game. #403/404 expresses his confidence in me/YI being pro-town. Comfortable with me as pardoner and YI as mayor because of the nature of the roles and our styles. #410/411 doesn’t think BB or zeks is mafia because they only got one vote, but they could be because the support for me/Yellow could have risen too quickly for the mafia to commit. #417 hm, not much here – says that zeks doesn’t seem that stupid. #419 unrelated #423 notes that obvious clues are probably false. #425 begs for medic protect, labels self as other huge poster (aside from me/YI) #434 “Either Misder and BrownBear are mafia and Misder voted late.” …wondering why Misder voted for BB. More likely that BB is having bad luck. #439 example (using self) of how inactivity >> clues for lynch target. #445 asks AFJ if I PMed him (I didn’t) #448 Wonders where Icy/LaXer are. #468 advises me to look at the last minute bandwagoners (which I do ^^) + more begging for protection. #469, 473 Sweet post tally chart. #477, 482, 484, 486, 487, 489, 494 unimportant (after end of day 1 post) #499 active posters are targets for mafia. #501 more advice to the blues, tells DTs to hold off on letting information out and Vigis to hold off. #514, 515 Mafia are generally less inactive than townies, or they spam. Brags a bit. #540, 541 explains his method of judging inactivity. #547, 549 disagrees with Yellow’s anti-inactivity plan, because mafia can satisfy it and sit back whereas real townies won’t necessarily follow it. #569 unimportant #586, 588 confirms onihunters’ math. More “protect me” lol. #595 says that me/YI are unlikely to be mafia. Says we need to trust them (us? me and yellow, lol grammar) #600 more about AFJ’s inactivity (an elaboration), backs off, but AFJ needs to step up. #604/605, 607 uhh. His response to Night 1 results. Not much there. Realizes he wasn’t targeted (lol) #610, 611 looks at ElyAs’s posts. Gives the important one. #613, 623, 626 some clue stuff. #631 calls the person who was hit to step out. Advice for dts to pm their confirmed townie. #635 thinks DTs should come out, just because of the math. Mentions that he might be godfather =p. #640 calls the find on TGB and Twilight Fortress brilliant. #642 unimportant #644 wonders why barth was targeted as he was relatively inactive. #646 uhh unimportant. #661 suggest cluechecking TGB. #665 unimportant #682/683, 686 analyzes MTF’s posting. #710 Calls out Deuce for posting in Kpop but not here. (This is after Deuce’s post) #720 Calls pyro out on not spending enough time in the game, despite being active in TL. #734, 736 some math, unimportant #738 notes that Deuce’s outside post are “decent” unlike his post here. #746 de-emphasizes clues. #747, 752 Points out the voting-at-the-same-time between Deuce, LaXer, pyro, and CompX. Suggests they might be mafia together. Votes for Deuce based on this (and everything else). #756 basically says TGB-clues are disproven/he has discarded them. #761 comment about time zones. #764 more about “TGB clues are weak” #767, 772, 775 Deuce > TGB #777, 780 Points out that LaXer had one of the worst ideas I’ve seen this game. #782 unimportant #800 MTF is prolly innocent. #810 eh. #815 advocates more for Deuce #895 unrelated #923 Favors keeping the active posters (this is during the intense period just before voting ended). #928, 932 not much here. #945, 953, 955 is tempted to switch, switches. More stuff recently that I’m not going to analyze because I haven’t looked the thread since. *Thoughts: Looking at him this closely, I realize that he’s not as pro-town as I originally though. His posts aren’t as great as I thought, and anyone can make up pretty charts – mafia especially would be attracted to doing that sort of thing because it’s an easy way to appear pro-town while not actually contributing. He doesn’t have all that many great ideas, tbh. Things that stick out to me: -Cries for medic protection. Possible mafia move to take medic protection away from other people – he emphasizes this more than he needs to which is why it sticks out (even doing a follow-up wondering why he wasn’t hit. An “innocent” act imo) -lol, both days he advocated for one person, and then ended up switching to the other side. The Darth -> Yellow switch is more significant (he may have been following the crowd on this one. Is he a sheep-herded townie, or is he a mafia trying to follow the bandwagon?). He doesn’t like Yellow, or his play style, but he votes for him because of Yellow’s “poor logic” which says that a poster as active as Yellow is probably not mafia. The one from last night is an interesting situation because he said so himself – whoever makes the killing switch is going to look really suspicious despite being “baller”. He’s the one that ends up doing it, which instinctively isn’t suspicious, unless you think that he might be playing mafia mindgames. The initial comment is what makes this suspicious to me, because he had sided heavily with Deuce and not pegging active posters, but then ended up switching “reluctantly”. Something to note. -Thought he has a high post count (possibly the highest of us all), a lot of his posts are fairly short – a few paragraphs at most – and he often does a rapid-fire posting style where he posts several times in the same time frame, and not necessarily in response to recent things (like a posting conversation). Instead, some things are edits, about 10-20% of his posts are unrelated/unimportant, and about 20% of his posts could have been combined, imo. So don’t be fooled by his high post count – he’s only contributing as much as maybe MTF or crate, maybe me in terms of length. In terms of CONTENT, he’s lacking imo. A lot of game theory, etc. He doesn’t give good, solid analysis on specific people at all, or if he does, it’s very short and only happens a couple times (I can’t think of any times). -Someone has mentioned that he’s overly suggestive about being GF, and it’s true, but this is just bonus. So, to cut this short, I think it’s likely that LD is mafia. He’s the perfect example of an active poster who’s not actually contributing all that much. A lot of his posts are just responses to people with really obviously bad ideas. Maybe I’m being harsh on him because I expected more from my original impression, and maybe I’m just as bad. But, tell me what you guys think. Possibly connected to: Dude I dunno. Me, YellowInk, MTF, TGB, the people he accused, screw this, I dunno how to do this lol. LD YOU POST TOO MUCH KTHX. I DONE WITH ANALYSIS NOW. | ||
DarthThienAn
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On June 08 2010 13:37 DCLXVI wrote: Well that was quite the eventful vote. So much for me thinking that my vote switch would amount to nothing... Where does this put AFJ? no mafia could be stupid enough to try to convince the town to switch vote to a townie that obviously - unless he thinks that we will think that. I guess deuce is a much better lynch target now since we switched away from him and hit a townie. Is it too early to use a double lynch? - as in should we save them. I think this puts deuce and AFJ on the same side, whether it be townie or mafia, or at least deuce mafia if AFJ is mafia. We have to vote to use the double lynch the day before. So we'd have to agree on a double lynch on day 3, and we would use the double lynch day 4. A long process, but one I think would be good at this point. We should be able to get some good clues tonight / some more leads on people, etc. It's unlikely that AFJ is mafia since Decue had such a high vote count UNLESS 1) Deuce is mafia and 2) AFJ is mafia along with zeks, and some of the others who voted. On June 08 2010 13:40 Hugoboss21 wrote: Damn a vigi modkilled? that suxs. SrY, didn't know w/ school it would be hard to follow this game much. I'll try to be more active =/ Lame excuse zzzz. -_-. On June 08 2010 13:46 Zyrre wrote: Shouldn't all mafias have tried to vote for and convince the town to lynch MooCow? If deuce is a mafia, they obviously would rather have MooCow lynched. If deuce is townie, they would still rather have MooCow since he was more active. Less activity makes it easier for them to lurk and hide. Now they most likely wouldn't risk to start the bandwagon, but rather jump on it later. Those who voted for MooCow were: AcrossFiveJulys DCLXVI Misder BrownBear zeks sputnik.theory onihunter DarthThienAn (x3) LunarDestiny That's a fairly short list considering there are 6 mafias. Can't be completely certain they are all in there obviously, but starting with these guys should be the best option. I'll agree. This list is a good place to look. I wouldn't bet on 6 of them being in there though. Maybe 2, at most. BUT! On June 08 2010 14:03 MTF wrote: I agree that it is a good place to start. However, I encourage town to be wary of using this list as a sort of end-all solution to catching Mafia. Assuming that the outcome was positive for Mafia no matter who was lynched, they'd have likely spread their votes between all three candidates for lynching, rather than pile on MooCow just because he was more active. That's the kind of move that traps you later on in the game, and I like to think that the opposition has more sense than that. Use the list as a guide. Analyze me by all means (I'm pretty sure my posts haven't been THAT great all game). I looked through LD already fairly closely - feel free to double check my analysis if you're up to the challenge of going through all his posts lol. Personally, I already stated why I preferred lynching MooCow over Deucegladlier. From my perspective, the Deuce bandwagon had already formed. Like several people pointed out (some in PMs to me), there was a LOT of Deuce-hate. I'll agree that he was retarded, etc.but there were some pretty random voters out there - it's the people who vote without a good explanation that you have to watch out for. I'll have to go back and look at that voting group more closely soon. Lynching MooCow, on the other hand, offered much more information. I wish it was earlier so that more people could have been given the opportunity to switch, but even seeing the switchers now will give me more information, especially since MooCow flipped town. The people who were posting in thread and here for that potential switch BUT DIDN'T SWITCH are less likely to be mafia to me, because as Zyrre said, MooCow is a better target regardless of Deuce's alignment. But the people who simply weren't here don't get that bonus credibility =p. It's not certain that anyone in the MooCow voter list is mafia, but it's another step to them being potential mafia. Looking quickly, I don't remember sputnik offering any explanation at all. AFJ and Misder and zeks had fairly convincing arguments as well - I'll have to look closely at those to see whether or not they actually make sense if you think about it. I forget why BB and onihunter switched. | ||
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On June 08 2010 22:50 LunarDestiny wrote: It is to the mafia's benefit that a medic waste his night protect on a mafia to decrease the chance that mafia's target be killed. uh.... you mean, to increase the chance. If I am really a townie as I claimed, it is to the town's benefit that I take the mafia hit for our blue role (damn Icysoul and your wasted day kill ability). True to an extent, but a) most townies don't play sacrificial lamb and b) I'd rather have an active townie than an Icysoul. Everyone can make chart Darth missed a critical reason for this. In the last mafia game I played (Bang Bang Mafia) where I was the godfather, I also made some kind of charts for town and the mafia as well. In the mafia thread, I stated that if I make the chart about who can be who, the mafia's version of the chart would be better than town's chart. you made a chart last game? Oh, for the mafia. Well, yea, that IS something I missed. Your charts help the mafia more than the town! Less content posts and high post counts are always the characteristic of my post If you check the past mafia game I played (3 kingdoms and bang bang), you will see that my posts are very similar to posts to this game. I think I gotten better after each game I played so my content in this game might be even better than my previous two games. You were town in 3K, and mafia in bang bang. hmm... eh. This defense is iffy to me. My playing style is somewhat different Even though this game has clues pointing to mafia, I don't emphasis too heavily on them because the clues are vague and can be very misleading. I only relate to them if I want to make a counter claim. I prefer to use behavior analysis and other kind of analysis (like voting timing, activity in game, reaction to post) that are somewhat unique. Same here. Which is why I like your style. But you haven't even (iirc) offered up all that much behavioral analysis. After the result of night 1 that I might have wasted a medic protection, I decided that I want the town to win even if it costs my life. I have regularly pointed out my actions in this game are very suspicious because I had too much influence on the game. If you wanted to save a blue role, why'd you cry for medic protection . OK, let's say you had a change of heart after night 1. But, in my opinion, night 1 was good for us. Only 2 people died, and they were regular townies. Pretty good for night 1. I started both bandwagon for Darth and YellowInk (who both I still believe are pro town because of pming to inactives (who the confrimed barth is dead as a townie) and posting history respectively). I prevented a possible bang wagon of lynching TheGilaBoys because the lack of concrete reasons for the lynch. Looking back, I never really state very good reason for lynching Deuce except for his inactivity and almost zero contribution to town. But I kind of rallied the bandwagon for lynching him because I think he is a better target than TheGilaBoys. I changed my vote to MooCow not because I have my reason doing so but my feeling that Deuce is mafia is not strong and others have strong belief that MooCow is mafia. Fair enough. Now what to do for me: 1)I can be more passive and not start any band wagon in the future. And deal with my case in a later time. 2)A detective could probably clear me of doubt being mafia. I don't recommend this before the Miller is still not to be found. As the number of people alive in game decreases, my chance of being a miller increases. Again, a dt check still doesn't clear me 100% because there is still the suspicion of me being the godfather. Either way, I think detectives should use their checks on others. 3)Lynching is the third choice. My influence on the game is debatably the highest in the game. I still feel good about my influence on the election. But my influence and decision on day 2 lynch turned out to be bad. Maybe if we lynched TheGilaBoys or Deuce, a mafia will be killed. To clear confusion in town, the best possible decision is the lynching of myself but it will waste a lynch. The alternative is to do a double lynch of me and another person so that the is will be quicker to lower the kill power of the mafia and to avoid mafia having more influence to the lynch voting. 1) irrelevant 2) why are you so concerned that you might be miller? Worried that DT check might return SCUM? But you're right, no DT check is 100%. 3) Your "influence" ... tbh, I'm not sure about this. People like MTF, I'm sure about their "influence" or contribution to the town. But even with your many many posts, I'm not sure if you've contributed all that much. Playing the "resigned player" card again? =p. "Oh I'm going to die night 1." "Oh lynch me, but it'll be a waste" On June 09 2010 03:15 LunarDestiny wrote: Shit, why was my respond to darth that bad? Time to reiterate. When examining my case, you have to ask yourself why he did this? The best prove of my innocence is probably the mayor election. I won't take much credit for Darth being elected as mayor (although I was his second vote), he was trusted by the town to begin with. For YellowInk, can I take some credit for him being the runner up? My choice of supporting him is correct, because he turned out to be one of the most helpful poster. Yellow contributes quite a bit, but that doesn't necessarily make him not mafia. You two could easily be mafia together. This is unlikely though since you tore him up so much in the beginning. What's more like likely is that he is town and you are mafia jumping onto his ship because voting for him will put you under less suspicion than the bandwagoners who voted for me. Now, for the explanation of asking for medic protection. I thought I was attracting a lot of attention. If the mafia wants to find a target, I might be a likely target so I asked for medic protection. From day 2 onward, I never asked another medic protection because I realize that the death as a townie, rather than a blue role, benefits the town. It's true, you never asked for protection again. But maybe that's after you guys failed to even kill 3 people, or even 1 blue, night 1 =p. I argued against lynching TheGilaBoys, because the reasons for lynching him is very flawed. My choice for lynching Deuce is because he was a better target in comparison. A reasonable explanation, but anyone who was around could have done the same. It wasn't hard to defend TGB - all you needed say was "lynching inactive > lynching clues" Lastly, my switch to MooCow. I will say that choice is 50/50 since we don't have solid evidence that either is mafia. Weighting inactivity against possible suspicion, I finalized the lynch because I don't think anyone else is willing to be that final person. Weren't you the one who said "I would never lynch MooCow or TGB over Deuce"? But yeah, I'm not going to focus too much on that last lynch since it was a difficult situation. I never thought I will hide anything for town and tried to play as explicit as possible. If you guys thinks that is some kind of mind game, I won't argue with that. Again, I strongly against having a dt check on me since it might not prove anything (miller/godfather). Better solutions are to trust me or lynch me and get it done with. zz. Or, if you were actually a townie, you would say "DON'T WASTE A LYNCH ON ME, FIND MAFIA." >_> On June 09 2010 03:18 LunarDestiny wrote: Also forgot to say, I am being sure I was the first to roleclaim (with pm) to both darth and yellowink as townie since I made no hesitation after being asked to do so. Roleclaims are taken with a grain of salt (is that the expression?). Roleclaiming townie to us, no matter when it happened, doesn't clear you of anything. In fact, roleclaiming so early might incriminate you even further. | ||
DarthThienAn
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+ Show Spoiler + On June 09 2010 02:21 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Look YI, I feel bad about the MooCow situation but I don't think it hurt us any more than lynching deuce would have. I'm not going to be doing things any differently just because of it. My post was more of whether we should ask vigi(s) to hit someone or whether we should ask them to hold off for tonight -- because we've done neither afaik. I would hope that if you are a vigi and are trigger happy tonight you've selected a very good target. Otherwise, as YI said, my opinion is that you hold off. Vigilante could hit Deuce. But that might be a bit of a waste - it gives us a tiny bit of information, whereas we could save the hit for later. I also lean toward no, save it. | ||
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agreed. I've already explained myself, had a similar reason - more info yo. The person whose reason I'm DYING to hear is of course.... Deucegladlier, lolol. People I don't recall reasons for (but this is just my memory): littlechava Zyrre TGB (he may have just been voting for not himself) deconduo Hugoboss21 MTF (? maybe he did) DCLXVI sputnik.theory onihunter (I remember he said he switched, as promised, but I don't remember what he promised) Oh, and everyone the TGB list too. Yeah. This is just my memory though. Don't be offended if you're on the list and had a good reason lol. | ||
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On June 09 2010 04:38 bumatlarge wrote: I dont think saying "dont rolecheck me because mof millers and gf" really helps you arguement as everyone can make that excuse, and by that logic rolechecks are useless becaue you cant be sure, which is bullshit because our entire strategy this game has revolved around "feelings" and "pretty sure" guesses. and look at all the mafia weve killed so far with our brilliant logic. Well, I mean, I don't think LD is worth wasting a rolecheck on. I don't know if I said anything else about that. Stepping away from LD for a sec, in general, as a DT, I would trust my rolechecks. Assuming 2 Millers in the game, you have like a 10% chance (maybe 15ish now) of hitting either of them. And rolechecks should always be supplemented with posting behavior. I mean, DTs shouldn't be rolechecking randomly, they should be rolechecking based on the posts in the thread. So yeah. To the DTs: go with your gut on your rolechecks. and dont even bother lunar i bet i could write the same thing darth did about everyone in this thread. dont get me wrong darth thats a very impressive analysis, but its founded on posts and assumptions. mafia can say anything and analyze jst as well. The only concrete information we can get is through roles and lies. if we can catch a lie and get DTs builing up a foundation of checks that he can issue through a mouth, then ill start making assumptions on a persons motives when the actual heat of being accused is brought on someones shoulders. it should be after this night that dts have built up something, or else stumbled on 2 mafia which would make for a huge turnaround. again posting from a phone so i apologize, i just dont want this kinda mindset enveloping the town when i get back. That took me awhile to understand lol. I read: "dont even bother, lunar, i bet i could write..." instead of: "dont even bother lunar, i bet i could write..." Anyway. Of course it's founded on posts and assumptions... what else would it be founded on? I read posts, and I interpret them. Then I look at the big picture. That's what analysis is.. And, well, if we waited around for our blues to do all the work, we would lose pretty easily. >_> which is why we do analysis. And tbh, from where I'm standing, LD don't look so good right now. | ||
DarthThienAn
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On June 09 2010 11:09 LunarDestiny wrote: To answer some of your questions: I never played a mafia game with clues before. No, I am not a native speaker. Well, night is ending and I don't know if I have to thank Darth for accusing me of being mafia which makes me a bad target for the mafia. Yeah, this was actually my secret method of keeping you alive for at least another day =] | ||
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On June 09 2010 11:46 flamewheel wrote: A few more minutes, and it'll be good to go. You're killing me. I thought it was up T_T. | ||
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On June 09 2010 11:48 littlechava wrote: f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5 littlechava (Vanilla Townie) has died | ||
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