EPT[Champion] Udyr - Page 7
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DrunkenOne
United States302 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
i'd like to see replays where sunfire is hitting 3 people consistently because from my experience teamfights are usually super spread out except for ad/support combos, and MAYBE double bruiser combo jump on 1 guy, but 40 dps to both is pretty small because of their magic resist and the majority of the damage is coming from the rest of your team so the %increase is really small. im not sure with the phage change but im guessing trinity is still the best item to get. Udyr is a terrible peel bot (compared to most tanky junglers) however its the right play a lot of times because a lot of teamfights are not fully committed and their AD/AP/Support stay back a bit and just hit tanks in which case diving them will just get you killed while even a little help on killing a diving melee is good. However your priority should always be on the highest damage targets and the problem with building full tank is you won't be able to 1v1 them and you might have problems chasing them and thats why trinity is good. You're already naturally tanky so you can get away with it as long as you are really farmed. If you're not really farmed as udyr you're going to suck and might as well just build full tank and bait some guys to auto hit you. i always thought trinity force is the ideal udyr item on teamfights because it gave you enough damage to burst squisies in a reasonable amount of time and also the mobility to catch them+the extra mana to spam W in the pre fight poke war. However if you're underfed you will just get blown up but if you have like spirit of the ancient golem/tabi/trinity at 20-25 minutes you're going to be damn tanky anyway and you just get frozen heart/spirit visage and randuins and you're unkillable anyways. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
also running in 1v3/1v4 wat wat sounds dubious at best. a 1 second stun isnt enough to start a teamfight and you're going to lose so much hp unless you have some reasonable back up initiate in which case you should probably just wait for them to initiate before running in | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On September 05 2013 23:46 Slayer91 wrote: are people still going tiger udyr jungle? Why not just play xin or vi something with stronger ganks and better damage and better mobility and not that much less tanky and farms probably as fast or faster than tiger udyr No, I've converted since our last talk. tbh, I personally can't tell much of a difference, rofl. T_T Trade off is faster jungling for slightly weaker ganks. And if playing more Noc lately with CT's build is any indication, I'm in a pretty herbivore mood with my junglers lately. I feel like Udyr doesn't fall off as hard compared to Xin, that's just me. I can't work with Vi, gg. Edit: Talking about my own games from yesterday, it wasn't a literal 1v3/1v4 but I find a pick and go on it but then there's reinforcements for both teams and it ends up becoming a 4v4 or something. It might look like a 1v3 at first but help wasn't that far away. I get your point about the paltry stun and it is a poor way to initiate. I guess I have to work on my patience. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I don't know why you'd start dolans blade with pheonix udyr though, im not sure it was ever good tbh is CT that c9 guy who just farmed liek 3 damage items and 1 shot people? thought that was meteos, That's a super underrated style though, herbivore style jungler has a lot of potential | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On September 05 2013 23:52 Slayer91 wrote: thats just because you probably go full retard with xin more because you can do so much shit and then feed early, then laterend up diving in 1v5 while with udyr its easy to just spam w wait for someone to fuck up and then dive in and you never gank unless its a good gank because otherwise theres no chance of sucess I don't know why you'd start dolans blade with pheonix udyr though, im not sure it was ever good tbh is CT that c9 guy who just farmed liek 3 damage items and 1 shot people? thought that was meteos, That's a super underrated style though, herbivore style jungler has a lot of potential The feels when Slayer91 uses "full retarded" to describe how you play Xin and sadly you can offer no rebuttal. Blade is nice, you don't necessarily need the extra pots from Machete+5 and I definitely feel the extra damage helps in ganks. :< CT Noc is Madreds, Zerkers, Kindle, Sunfire, GolemSS, FH. I top it off with Trinity (selling Madreds), it has obscene farming potential. Meteos did full AD Noc and he shit on people cause they're C9 and NA's bad. And I think you mean "overrated"? You're saying the opposite has a lot of potential. @_@ idk | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
i wonder why he stacks cdr on noct, seems interesting but yeah its probably pretty scary for ads used to facing 50 cs junglers to facing someone with 200 cs but yeah full retard is the standard xin playstyle, dunno he just promotes that playstyle, but if it works out its pretty dominant | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On September 06 2013 00:20 Slayer91 wrote: no, its underrated, because it has lots of potential but everyone just plays lee sin and stacks dolans blades i wonder why he stacks cdr on noct, seems interesting but yeah its probably pretty scary for ads used to facing 50 cs junglers to facing someone with 200 cs but yeah full retard is the standard xin playstyle, dunno he just promotes that playstyle, but if it works out its pretty dominant The max CDR is probably just a comfortable byproduct of the build. GolemSS for Tenacity/HP, FH for aura/Armor. CDR is just extra bonus from both items. More Paranoia is never bad either. But we digress here, lulz. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
Build 1: Spirit of the Ancient Golem + Tabi (3000 gold) - 500 HP - 10 % CDR - 25 armor - 10% reduced damage from basic attacks - 14 HP/5 - 7 MP/5 - Tenacity - 30% increased damage to monsters Build 2: 2 Doran Rings + Treads + Giant´s Belt (3000 gold) - 500 HP - 25 resist - Tenacity - 30 AP - 6 MP/5 - 8 MP per kill I like this comparison because it seems surprisingly close. Even the 30 AP = 14 HP/5 if considering constant combat due to turtle shield efficiency increase. The mana per kill suits my jungle style too, but that´s maybe a preference thing. Overall, though, it is significantly more mana which is useful to Udyr early game. Even though, missing 10% CDR sucks obviously. However, for me, a few points make build 2 come out ahead: i) increased damage to champions (although admittedly it pales vs monsters), and, maybe more importantly, ii) you are 1000 gold closer to a another more impactful item such as Randuin´s. I am not talking about AP Udyr! Just about the potential 2 Doran Rings start. This start gives you a noticeable oomph in early game fights and ganks. Is it me, or do we need DiamondProx to start doing it for others to realize its potential? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
early game against heavy ap teams, rushing 2xdolans rings +mercs might be an ok idea I guess. Definitely later on the game the worst it gets, and the advantages early are pretty small unless you have a way to make it count early on. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
Basically, as I see it, with the Doran Rings you would have probably a better early game, a slightly worse "mid" game, and then a big high point when you complete Randuin´s/other. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
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walrus
Vietnam68 Posts
On October 08 2013 19:35 unjugon wrote: I got recently called out for starting a couple Doran Rings on phoenix jungle Udyr, while it has been giving me solid results (something like 8-3 in platinum 5 EUW, "poltrip" is my acc). This start gives you a noticeable oomph in early game fights and ganks. Definitely will try this, thank you. I believe Udyr is the best duelist at early game (with double buffs he can kill everyone). One should grab small items and start snowballing. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Also CDR increases dps by a % basis, same with the %minion damage, meaning that 2 dorans rings is just as good at minute 3 but never scales at all. (except with armour/magic resist on the turtle shield bonus) If you don't want to fall off as udyr and you are doing well eraly game the best option is nearly always sotga+tabi+trinity force. Then you get wardens mail/some magic resist into frozen heart or something. SOTAG and tabi is a very cost effective combo because the regen and minion damage from spirit stone component is perfect for early game farming while having the mana/hp to countergank/react to someone overextending, while the tenacity is basically free and pays off the cost of the spirit stone regen which is useless later. Then you get tabi instead of mercs and the tabi passive is probably one of the most cost effective in the game considering AD Carries are the main incoming damage source, more so as you get later in the game. (That's a lot of what I meant about getting weaker later, the 10% cdr and 10% reduced basic attacks keeps getting better and the 2 dorans rings is the same/gets worse when mana regen becomes worse and the flat AP is better on a level 1-3 phoenix stance than a %increase on a lvl 5 phoenix stance from 10% cdr becomes better. (similarly the 10% more turtle shield becomes better than 15 more ap, especially if you are stacking cdr because it scales multiplicatively, the first 10% is actually the worst) | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
Definitely will try this, thank you. I believe Udyr is the best duelist at early game (with double buffs he can kill everyone). One should grab small items and start snowballing. Thanks! let me know if you want me to give some more details on how I play it (though I guess nowadays one can mostly infer it from lolking) Slayer, I don´t disagree with anything you say. Note that the giant´s belt item could be a Solari or an Iceborn, which are more impactful IMO than the SOTAG (although this one is solid as heck, can´t disagree with that). I am actually trying items following boots, either straight to Solari or just 1 Doran+Iceborn. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Being a good duelist doesn't imply that you should build early game items. If you are already the best duelist in the game getting early game items doesn't make that much sense. Dorans items early are great for early tower dives, but in terms of trying to pick fights the main problem is lack of a gap closer and most people will run from your dorans or spirit stone. It will help a bit in 2v2 fights, but as mentioned you already excel in those and rarely lose if played correctly. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
What do you guys think? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Not that cc is bad, but I don't think rushing mallet is a good idea because you either want lots of resists+cdr or damage, stacking health on udyr isn't really optimal. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
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