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Hello everyone!
So this may seems trivial for many people and since i'm playing sc2 for like a month, i'm not really trying to make a point gameplay wise.
Anyway, here is why i never, ever produce hydras:
"Hydralisk also has a melee attack animation when attacking ground units at melee range, this attack is still affected by the normal Ranged Attack upgrades. However, this close range attack is not affected by Guardian Shield, nor is it blocked by a Point Defense Drone."
Talk about unintuitive mechanics. ><
The first time you see an hydra, not knowing anything about Sc, you'll probably think: "Wow, this (cool looking) giant clawed monster looks scary, better engage it from a distance!" Guess what, you're wrong, it'll spite at your face no matter what. Even if it claws at you, it will still count as spitting!
And you thought Zergs were all about evolutionary efficiency. I guess the claws were evolved to scare off noob marines.
Now similarly, when you see a lurker, you might think this giant spiked beast can handle itself in a fight, right? Well yes, but it needs to hide before!
So i understand of course that for the sake of balance not all zerg units can efficiently melee attack. It makes sense for infestors and SH. But still, with a game that old and polished, you could expect more "visual consistency" from hydras and lurkers.
Since Blizzard whishes Lotv to be more "noob friendly", i think this sort of things should be adressed at some point.
Sc2 is a tough game. I tried it for a while a year ago and gave up because of MM. When i saw the changes Blizzard tried with them (auto inject) i went back to it and enjoyed myself a lot more. Then the manual inject came back (with stacking) and i though "man, i'm screwed." But i persevered and didn't regret it, because i get used to it after tree days. Now i think the current MM are great (at least for zerg, i'm clueless about the other races play) and i would not want to go back to auto-inject for all the larvae in the world.
All that to say, i'm not for handholding of new players at all. As a bronze player It doesn't matter if i'm floating ressources a lot or can't find the right counter, since i'm against other bronze players anyway. I'll learn in time, being by practice or watching hours of replay. But, tiny details like mineral walking or lurkers being unable to take a bite at some random marine is a bit off putting for casual player i think.
I'm wandering if this has been talked about by Blizzard. Wouldn't it be possible (in a far future) to give hydras and lurkers a basic attack (maybe with a small + vs armor), beneficing from melee upgrades?
And please, fixe this mineral walk crap at once 
Otherwise i think lotv is going to be awesome!
Thank you for reading,
Cheers!
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You do know mineral walking exists so the workers can mine without pathing being a real issue?
At least you admit you've got no clue.
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Yeah i get that. But pathing through enemy units? Using walk to scout or stack your worker and surround? How is this not an (accepted) exploit?
Again i have no problem with a high learning curve, but how is it a good thing to encourage exploit?
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Why are you calling it an exploit in the first place? It's just a rule and it works as intended.
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On October 03 2015 00:03 Ch4lice wrote:
Yeah i get that. But pathing through enemy units? Using walk to scout or stack your worker and surround? How is this not an (accepted) exploit?
Again i have no problem with a high learning curve, but how is it a good thing to encourage exploit?
its a basic game mechanic which enables some interesting gameplay. nothing about it is exploitable.
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Ok i might be wrong and the liquipedia surely is too http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mineral_Walk
Still how do you explain this "rule" to new players? Is it going something like: "Units can't go through each other, with the exeption of workers WHEN they are on a mining tripe." ?
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Well as soon as you have 9 workers on your mineral line, which even new players should be able to achieve, you'll see it anyways so what is your problems with it?
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You should not try to look for too much realism, it's a fictional universe with arbitrary rules, exceptions to rules and overall "weird stuff". The Hydralisk "rule" you quoted is a tad convoluted indeed, but does it matter in practice? No. Does it prevent newbies from playing? Nope. As for Zerg melee attacks not benefiting from Melee upgrades, you can actually defend the opposite position that it's clearer for newbies: one upgrade for all attacks instead of having to know that attacks use different upgrades according to the position of the targeted unit. Realism vs practical aspect.
At any rate, games often have special stuff left (based on history, limitations of the engine, the only solution that developers found to problem X or Y, etc.). It's part of their charm. If you go down the road of “but why is this done that way?” for everything, you will quickly realize that you can pretty much demolish every aspect of the game in a vacuum because it won't make sense for reason X or Y.
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On October 03 2015 00:15 Ch4lice wrote:Ok i might be wrong and the liquipedia surely is too http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mineral_WalkStill how do you explain this "rule" to new players? Is it going something like: "Units can't go through each other, with the exeption of workers WHEN they are on a mining tripe." ?
Yes. Also ground units can go through colossus.
Those are just arbitrary rules, they don't need to be always logical or lore consistent. Otherwise you would also argue why you can't build/land building on any units, even when they are supposed to be so small or when they are invisible/burrowed, or whatever else which may seem counter-intuitive for newcomers.
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Personally, I thought it was really cool when i learned that ranged units have a melee animation if their opponent is close enough, but it still has all the same damage and stuff. I didn't know it ignores point defense drone or guardian shield though
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There is a game called Smash Bros that is played competitively that has a ton of exploits. No, I am not talking about wavedashing, I'm talking about pressing down on a platform. This unintuitive explot allows a character to fall through the ground beneath them and clip through the platform. Recent iterations of Smash Bros 'fixed' many of its exploits but they forgot to fix this crucial one.
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This reminds me that i didn't finished reading the SC posts on Code of Honor 
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On October 03 2015 00:03 Ch4lice wrote:
Yeah i get that. But pathing through enemy units? Using walk to scout or stack your worker and surround? How is this not an (accepted) exploit?
Again i have no problem with a high learning curve, but how is it a good thing to encourage exploit?
Well, the game is what it is and blizzard and large parts of the community just like stuff like mineral walks that they have grown used to. It's in the game and won't go away, though I agree with your perception about exploitations of these things. You just have to learn and deal with them, sorry.
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On October 03 2015 00:40 Starecat wrote:This reminds me that i didn't finished reading the SC posts on Code of Honor
Hum care to share a link? 
I would also be curious to know if there is any exploit that is considered bad etiquette or can get you disqualified in tournaments and such.
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On October 03 2015 00:46 Ch4lice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 00:40 Starecat wrote:This reminds me that i didn't finished reading the SC posts on Code of Honor Hum care to share a link? I would also be curious to know if there is any exploit that is considered bad etiquette or can get you disqualified in tournaments and such.
There have been a couple of banned exploits in the past that let you figure out your opponent's spawn location without leaving your base, they've only ever been in the game very briefly though. BW has a lot of banned and unbanned exploits.
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If you're fighting mech/sky-Terran or a bunch on sentries/zealots in melee with Hydras one of you is doing it wrong anyway.
I wonder why you didn't even mention the Roach, which was designed as a melee unit but added a "spit" attack latter on and now have two HUGE and useless claws. :p
Want something counter intuitive in SC2? That the "armored" tag is considered a nerf.
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If you play the campaign they explain to you how a lot of these units work.
I don't think it's that big of a deal honestly.
And yeah the Hydra melee animation is cool etc. But you usually want to keep them as far away from the enemy as possible anyway.
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On October 03 2015 00:54 varsovie wrote:I wonder why you didn't even mention the Roach
Yeah actually i was wondering about those ones too ^^ Also the fact that ravagers are way bigger but also squishier than roaches bugs me :p But again i admit this is somehow trivial.
Why is "armored" a nerf?
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On October 03 2015 00:53 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 00:46 Ch4lice wrote:On October 03 2015 00:40 Starecat wrote:This reminds me that i didn't finished reading the SC posts on Code of Honor Hum care to share a link? I would also be curious to know if there is any exploit that is considered bad etiquette or can get you disqualified in tournaments and such. There have been a couple of banned exploits in the past that let you figure out your opponent's spawn location without leaving your base, they've only ever been in the game very briefly though. BW has a lot of banned and unbanned exploits.
By "briefly" you mean a year latter... The one that allowed siegetanks "off-map" was fixed relatively quicker, the reaper off-path too was quick to fix. The one for faster mining was sorta fixed (aka rendered very click intensive). There is still un-expected behaviors though that aren't fixed in the engine, like different speed per direction and thus the 8%gas mining lost on some map, the missing larva when sync with inject bug... Although there's not as many bugs in SC2 other than map dependent ones, most tournaments simply have the generic "don't use bug/exploits or hacks" rule. In any rate reading the changelogs brings a lot of questions, but I guess you gotta find an ol' pirated version of the game to try those. :D
BW had some nasty and cool bugs/exploits, but most unusable in a normal game. Like maxing out the number of sprites or erasing units on a ramp with Stasis and mineral walk. Some of the worse of SC1 got fixed before the game became very popular (Terran building slide, invincible drone). In any rate competitive games had to rule and enforce the use of those exploits. wiki.teamliquid.net
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As long as things like mineral wall and cliff walking aren't hidden, it is fine. Compare with other RTS's which may not even bother to tell you important game mechanics.
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On October 03 2015 01:03 Ch4lice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 00:54 varsovie wrote:I wonder why you didn't even mention the Roach Yeah actually i was wondering about those ones too ^^ Also the fact that ravagers are way bigger but also squishier than roaches bugs me :p But again i admit this is somehow trivial. Why is "armored" a nerf?
If you imagine a ravager as growing from the roach you can think of the lower health being DUE to its increased sized (roaches carapace and turning into a ravager being analogous to Bruce Banner's clothes when he turns hulk)
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On October 03 2015 01:03 Ch4lice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 00:54 varsovie wrote:I wonder why you didn't even mention the Roach Yeah actually i was wondering about those ones too ^^ Also the fact that ravagers are way bigger but also squishier than roaches bugs me :p But again i admit this is somehow trivial. Why is "armored" a nerf?
Because of the way SC2 works, units have "bonus damage vs certain types", a unit with no tag/attribute can't receive bonus damage from any of this. Tags are meant so units have counterplays or have nice side effects attached (masive breaks FF for exemple, air flies).
So if you get armored instead of no tag then some units gonna do bonus DPS to you. Those bonus are often WAY better (150% for immortal) than the base damage and a LOT of staple P and T units have anti-armor attacks.
In BW units had 4 attack types, and 100%, 50% or 25% damage vs certain kind of Tag, that meant being armored would at least shave of DPS from some units. Fun fact it always did 100% damage vs shields.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Attributes
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On October 03 2015 01:03 Ch4lice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 00:54 varsovie wrote:I wonder why you didn't even mention the Roach Yeah actually i was wondering about those ones too ^^ Also the fact that ravagers are way bigger but also squishier than roaches bugs me :p But again i admit this is somehow trivial. Why is "armored" a nerf?
You would think that this tag indicates a defensive bonus while it always means a defensive malus.
See how Archons have little to no weakness (well except EMP) because they are neither light nor armored.
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On October 03 2015 00:15 Ch4lice wrote:Ok i might be wrong and the liquipedia surely is too http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mineral_WalkStill how do you explain this "rule" to new players? Is it going something like: "Units can't go through each other, with the exeption of workers WHEN they are on a mining tripe." ?
Do you really have to explain it? Why is this even a problem? It is a rule which removes a lot of collission calculations and has welcome side effects. It gives you very interesting micro options which help you to defend vs harass. It is worth keeping!
To hydras. I didnt know hydras had a melee attack. Wow thats great. An animation would be nice, yes, but it should do the same damage has the ranged attack.
But i dont get why you dont play hydras. They are great units! Essential vs protoss and also very good vs terran. You can do 1-1, 2-2 timings. Roach hydra is a viable strategy vs terran bio if you dont stop teching after 2-2 upgrades. Go to viper, better infestors. If you have vipers abduct their medivacs because they are a big part of what makes bio strong against hydras. But the primary problem is the high dps of stimmed bio. Thats why you need fungal. It gives you additional dps but more important it roots bio so that they cant attack all at once. You should even stay outside of bio range as long as they are stimmed and have full health.
Hydras vs bio is a very surgecal combat. It comes down to dps per area and tankiness per area. Zerg has all the tools to make it work but terran too.
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On October 03 2015 01:31 todespolka wrote:Do you really have to explain it? Why is this even a problem? It is a rule which removes a lot of collission calculations and has welcome side effects. It gives you very interesting micro options which help you to defend vs harass. It is worth keeping! To hydras. I didnt know hydras had a melee attack. Wow thats great. An animation would be nice, yes, but it should do the same damage has the ranged attack.
The melee animation exists. Same for Roaches and Queens
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On October 03 2015 00:15 Ch4lice wrote:Ok i might be wrong and the liquipedia surely is too http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mineral_WalkStill how do you explain this "rule" to new players? Is it going something like: "Units can't go through each other, with the exeption of workers WHEN they are on a mining tripe." ?
They have done a lot of work in the scenario tutorials that explain a lot of cool micro management tools. I can't point you to where they are because it's been forever since I've seen them but I know they exist. As far as mineral walking that's an artifact from sc1 and broodwar that was discovered from competitive play. Blizzard did not intend on the design of mineral gathering to create that type of worker micro. However because it was an interesting game mechanic they purposely left it in starcraft 2.
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EPT
