What is Tekken? Its a beat em up game(1v1, fighting game), with 3d movement. With a compelling story mode, deep customisation options that is bought with in-game currency, the game usually have atleast one different mode aside from its more traditional classic 1v1.
Key Features
- Power Crush(new) - Rage Drives and Rage Arts(new) - Classic 1 vs 1 battles - STREET FIGHTER CROSS-OVER CHARACTER - AKUMA - Choose which side to play on(online play) - ROSTER OF OVER 30 PLAYABLE CHARACTERS
POWER CRUSH Able to finish your move even when taken damage.
Rage Drives and Rage Arts The super powered Rage mode attacks aren’t new to Tekken, but here they’re expanded in two ways — the first are Rage Drives, an attack which can be also used in a combo, resulting in increased damage.
Then there’s the Rage Art, which is a powerful finishing move designed to put your foe on his back or, if his health is low enough, deliver a fatal blow.
The Rage mode triggers when at low health.
NEW TO TEKKEN? WANT TO LEARN? GAME GUIDES!
Especially recommended for new players: Movement+ Show Spoiler +
On friday it begins, if the network works well that day/night i will paul phoenix myself through several rounds hitting my opponents with fierce construction smashes. Not sure how this sentence ended, but thats what happens to your self when you do the paul phoenix technique.
On https://www.gamebillet.com/ tekken 7 has a good deal. Around 10£ cheaper for the original and around 20£ cheaper for the deluxe game. Myself bought the deluxe one, and i did receive the key today, it worked. What i dont know is weather i did receive the deluxe edition or not. Time will tell on friday i guess.
On June 01 2017 02:38 Weavel wrote: Fucking amazing that fighting games like these get released on pc nowdays. Of course many of them have some problems but still.
Bought it 100% because Akuma is in it and it's on PC. Smart moves on their part.
I like Tekken but I never really could get into it more than casually. The moon physics juggling I still think simply looks dumb and I always felt like most wins vs real people could be boiled down to "oh they don't know how to block this". But I've never played it with good netcode and never really seriously so I'm going to give it another shot. So nice to have PC get stuff like this finally. Too bad it's not cross platform.
I've heard some bad things about PS4 online atm. Speaking from PC experience so far:
- Despite a very slow first load, the game runs really smooth on my gig (GTX 76) on medium + full screen; in fact, I haven't seen a frame drop at all which is vastly better than SFV (even on some settings here and there game would randomly lag). T7 really nailed it with PC optimization. - 10 bucks less than other ones. Ofc, we don't have the jukebox mode or free T6. Wouldn't mind having jukebox and/or OST released separately so that I can just cycle through. - Single player (main story mode) is short. I wish it was bit longer with more coherent storyline, but can't say much complaints when the game's gonna be geared towards competitive local/online play. - Arcade mode, treasure hunt works as intended. Same for training. Didn't try versus yet.
Overall, despite how scrubby I am with this game (only played at arcades against friends back in late 90s, then tried to pick up SFV so I virtually have 0 indepth experience in fighting games), it's very good that it's drawing me into playing it more and more.
And I know some people have said that PC version is the best version. Not sure if that's 100% true, but it feels good playing on PC without my computer suffering as much.
On June 05 2017 08:07 supernovamaniac wrote: I've heard some bad things about PS4 online atm. Speaking from PC experience so far:
- Despite a very slow first load, the game runs really smooth on my gig (GTX 76) on medium + full screen; in fact, I haven't seen a frame drop at all which is vastly better than SFV (even on some settings here and there game would randomly lag). T7 really nailed it with PC optimization. - 10 bucks less than other ones. Ofc, we don't have the jukebox mode or free T6. Wouldn't mind having jukebox and/or OST released separately so that I can just cycle through. - Single player (main story mode) is short. I wish it was bit longer with more coherent storyline, but can't say much complaints when the game's gonna be geared towards competitive local/online play. - Arcade mode, treasure hunt works as intended. Same for training. Didn't try versus yet.
Overall, despite how scrubby I am with this game (only played at arcades against friends back in late 90s, then tried to pick up SFV so I virtually have 0 indepth experience in fighting games), it's very good that it's drawing me into playing it more and more.
And I know some people have said that PC version is the best version. Not sure if that's 100% true, but it feels good playing on PC without my computer suffering as much.
Have the PC version too, this is the best netcode I've played in for a fighting game. Other than the lack of jukebox, Namco did an excellent job making sure it wasn't a gimpy port *cough* Dead or Alive 5 and Street Fighter V *cough*. Gambled on the deluxe edition too just to express my appreciation for looking to port the game for PC, it was worth every penny and I look forward to seeing their development with Soul Calibur.
Pc version has 3-4 frames less input lag with Vsync disabled. I'm not a fan of the anti-aliasing on PS4, costumes and faces look like they're melting off.
Patch now live on all platforms(i believe), atleast pc got it.
Tekken 7 1.02 patch notes
Patch #1 Improvements Log:
Improved Online Matching Functionality 1. The following player information will no longer be displayed before a match: - Character selected - Wins - Rank - Title
2. Connection with other players can be established more consistently
3. Improved Stability - Addition of ON/OFF feature for voice chat - ON/OFF for voice chat added to OPTION menu. - Set to OFF as default setting. - Nina’s Ivory Cutter attack properties.
In the coming days, we’ll be making additional improvement to TEKKEN 7, including: • During the week of June 12th, a patch similar to the PlayStation 4 version will be released for the PC and Xbox One versions of TEKKEN 7 to address online stability and assorted bug fixes.
CEO is supposed to be a pretty big name of a tournament isnt it? I think so. I missed the CEO completely.
Link to the CEO tournament, day 1. Check out the description to give links to all matches. Players to look for are: Anakin, RiP, jdcr(considdered 1 or 2 in world)
This game seems pretty good imo, still a little too much comboing (I wish more fighting games didnt rely on combos so much, I find its first of all a knowledge barrier and boring that you can't escape them as opponent -- its like an end branch in a given situation instead of keeping the mind game going, I wish most of the time next moves were escapable in some way or max length combos quite short). Also I heard there are 8 frames of input lag which is quite bad. But the base mechanics seem good, like moves balance, throw and movement. Still not sure if Rage art too strong or not? I would pick it up if I had newer PC.
On June 19 2017 01:13 ProMeTheus112 wrote: This game seems pretty good imo, still a little too much comboing (I wish more fighting games didnt rely on combos so much, I find its first of all a knowledge barrier and boring that you can't escape them as opponent -- its like an end branch in a given situation instead of keeping the mind game going, I wish most of the time next moves were escapable in some way or max length combos quite short). Also I heard there are 8 frames of input lag which is quite bad. But the base mechanics seem good, like moves balance, throw and movement. Still not sure if Rage art too strong or not? I would pick it up if I had newer PC.
input lag issues were always exaggerated (even in SF5 - compared to SF4, there was ~3 added frames of recovery to moves on average. This made them have equivalent time to react when compared to SF4. It's the longer delays people were feeling and called it input lag), with that said, the important part is the math & how it adds up with how much time you have to react or punish a move.
Tekken has very long startup on attacks - most attacks being 10+, commonly seeing them 14+. This makes the amount of input lag negligible as you easily have enough time to react as long as you are not stuck in active frames.
It was some top player saying this on a video, I have no doubt it changes the enjoyment of the game, I play some arcade games where even 1 frame of input lag can be felt and diminish your play significantly, in a game where the best reaction and mind games can be played with each frames of adv/disadvantage count I think 8 frames is unfortunate at least :O
here is video
I mean even in Starcraft you can see the new quality of (reactive) micro you can do when you play at very low lat or in LAN, but the fighting game is like 100% about this stuff
Input lag is a bad thing! Imagine your mouse cursor having input lag, it's horrible whenever it happens it makes your accuracy low cause you can't read your cursor location/movement as you input it and you cant see the movement of the target of your cursor as you aim for it
The relative slowness of the moves in Tekken doesn't make input lag negligible. Tekken taxes concentration and reactions probably more than any other fighter out there, and you have to react to mixups in order to be good. Mixups in Street Fighter like games are fast enough that you are expected to predict rather than react to most things other than the occasional slow overhead. No good Street Fighter player picks up Tekken and finds himself able to block everything (even 27 frame low hits).
7-8 frames of lag is definitely on the margin where people will have trouble step punishing and blocking/ducking stuff that will blow you up if not correctly dealt with.
Well, i'm sure the input lag is having an influence on Gameplay but alltogethere these pros still seem very positive. I got a way diffrent vibe from sf4 -->5 pros
The additional 2-3 frames of input lag doesn't really change how the game is played, but it is noticeable. Pros aren't as affected because the game is essentially the same for the last 15 years, and they're already on the better side of the margin where input lag affects you.
The lag isn't going to be what ultimately holds players back from improving. It's just bogus that they've added this additional hurdle to get over in an already extremely difficult game.
On June 20 2017 23:28 chocorush wrote: The relative slowness of the moves in Tekken doesn't make input lag negligible. Tekken taxes concentration and reactions probably more than any other fighter out there, and you have to react to mixups in order to be good. Mixups in Street Fighter like games are fast enough that you are expected to predict rather than react to most things other than the occasional slow overhead. No good Street Fighter player picks up Tekken and finds himself able to block everything (even 27 frame low hits).
7-8 frames of lag is definitely on the margin where people will have trouble step punishing and blocking/ducking stuff that will blow you up if not correctly dealt with.
Well, maybe negligible isn't the best word. But I should say relative to other fighting games (which have at least 7-8 frames LESS start up on average) it will not be nearly as noticeable. Those additional 7-8+ frames assist with reaction time quite a bit.
Also, compared to TTT2, it's only a difference of LESSS THAN 2 frames (on PS4, with PC being faster) - . Also note, that is with WIRED ps4 controller, and wireless actually has BETTER input lag on PS4. (Harada mentioned this specifically, and is quite annoyed by the input lag complaints, as they are semi-uneducated).
But I must say, the input lag issue is definitely overblown these days. People weren't even able to test this in the old days and it was never a concern, and after 2000 when flat screens started becoming popular, the input lag on non-CRT tv's/monitors far surpassed anything we're seeing nowdays. Even nowdays, most players monitors are probably adding FAR more lag than the additional lag introduced with the new game clients in UE4.
You know how many people I've met that didn't even know their TV's have a "Game Mode"??? lol
Tekken 7 is native to PC, and the input lag difference is even more if you disable vsync. Fighting game players have been playing on sub 16ms lag monitors ever since EVO switched to HD monitors. Input lag has always been a big deal, I don't know where this revisionist history is coming from that fighting game players didn't care about it before SFV.
On June 21 2017 08:18 chocorush wrote: Tekken 7 is native to PC, and the input lag difference is even more if you disable vsync. Fighting game players have been playing on sub 16ms lag monitors ever since EVO switched to HD monitors. Input lag has always been a big deal, I don't know where this revisionist history is coming from that fighting game players didn't care about it before SFV.
Well, it was around 2010-2011 when people first started making a bigger deal about input lag. But ever since CRT's started going out of style 10 years earlier, most people weren't even aware. Even the first few years of SF4 people didn't have any clue of what acceptable input lag was. You can even do a range search on google, and there's very few people that were even aware of the concept.
Notice how all the input lag charts typically start on the LATE ps3/360 generation? Not even early in the generation?
As mentioned earlier, I've personally ran in to many people who did not even know their TV's had a gaming mode, and they were playing with ridiculously noticable input lag, and did not know anything was wrong. More people whos houses I visited and seen their gaming setup DID NOT have game mode on their TV's, than those who did. Would you say these people should be complaining about the games input lag at all? When their TV's are adding far more lag?
Unless you specifically purchase a gaming monitor and/or intentionally get one with low input lag, your likely going to be playing on a system that introduces a lot of lag.
Out of the gamers those of you here are friends with, how many of them actually have a gaming monitor? Sure , tournaments may use it as standard, but if you are not playing on a low input lag monitor at home, your timing will be off playing at a tournament.
All I'm saying, is people don't really have any room to complain about input lag that is natively in games, until you make sure your hardware devices and monitor are not adding any input lag. Because the native lag is there for everyone, but I would bet that far more than 75% of gamers out there who play fighting games have more lag from their hardware than the games itself.
This makes it just seem like a crazy situation to me, when you have people making a shit storm for under 2 frames of lag introduced native to the game, acting like it feels completely unplayable and ruins gameplay, when the majority of those people have hardware that's adding far more than 2 frames of lag. Some TV's when not in game mode I've seen have almost up to 0.5 seconds of input lag.
On June 21 2017 18:11 Foxxan wrote: 128 ms input lag is HUGE. Can literally be a difference of defending a low to not defending that low
Another example of what I mean. This is very misleading.
In reality, it's PS4 version is only 27ms difference from past Tekken games.
People are acting like they have 128ms less time to react, when that is NOT the case.
How many of those people with complaints have tested their hardware? Let's see how many of their setups do not have at least 27ms of lag coming from either sub-part input devices, and/or monitor setup.
On another point related to this.... How many people in the past didn't realize that their sticks were adding more lag than a couple frames compared to the native controllers? Yet people still swore by stick.
How many people are still using things like brooks converters? Even at tournaments how often do you see them? Right there they are adding nearly 2 frames of input lag.
In the PS3 generation, most sticks were over 20ms natively, and converters were 25+ms.
Can you honestly say these people have room to complain? And doesn't this at the very least show that it's not as big of a difference as they are making, if these people DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE A DIFFERENCE until it was pointed out to them?
Do you remember when PS3's first came out and people needed converters for their PS2 sticks? We tested the shit out of lag on those. Do you remember when Super Turbo was released on the PS2 (before the PS3 was released) in CCC2 and there was lag? We complained about that and stopped using that version altogether. Testing for lag has always been a thing in the FGC every time there has been a large change in technology.
Most FGC communities used CRT's well past Evo switched to the VH236H because it was expensive. We definitely knew when we played on laggy TV's and why the game wasn't playing as well. Our crew played on CRT's for a good chunk of Soulcalibur 4 and Street Fighter 4 because only one of us owned a VH236H. Marvel 2 was always played on CRT's. Smash players still swear by CRT's.
Sure there are casuals that don't know there is lag. You can't just project that on the FGC as a whole, because that is patently false.
128ms lag is a big fucking deal no matter how you put it.
https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime Go do this and then add a 128ms lag on top of it. Now this test might have lag cuz we have different internet and what not. But the point is simple, its a big deal. And as chocorush is saying i have also read that the technology has gotten worse in this matter as well. I am not expert or any kind, iam just saying what i have read somewhere on the internet.
In reality, it's PS4 version is only 27ms difference from past Tekken games.
People are acting like they have 128ms less time to react, when that is NOT the case.
I dont understand? If you say its 128ms then its not 128 ms?
On June 22 2017 07:40 Foxxan wrote: 128ms lag is a big fucking deal no matter how you put it.
https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime Go do this and then add a 128ms lag on top of it. Now this test might have lag cuz we have different internet and what not. But the point is simple, its a big deal. And as chocorush is saying i have also read that the technology has gotten worse in this matter as well. I am not expert or any kind, iam just saying what i have read somewhere on the internet.
In reality, it's PS4 version is only 27ms difference from past Tekken games.
People are acting like they have 128ms less time to react, when that is NOT the case.
I dont understand? If you say its 128ms then its not 128 ms?
TTT2 was 101ms of lag. People were not complaining about input lag.
T7 is 27ms more. Now all of a sudden, "128ms is a big deal".
This is why I mention hardware. It's pretty likely that the lag introduced by their setup exceeds 27ms. But they focus on the engines inherent delay, when their own is the larger issue (and the reason they can not block as fast). If 27ms was really so important, those people complaining should be throwing a few hundred dollars in to their setup. If they don't have a lagless setup, they have NO ROOM to complain.
This is also discounting that engines tend to delay some inputs for smooth netcode. An example - GGPO adds delay to button presses, but has a REDUCED delay on blocking, in order for blocks to accurately seem responsive. Not sure if T7 (or SF5/I2) function in this way, but it's something to keep in mind - I think it's likely that T7 uses this method because even online I do not have many issues with feeling like I blocked something on my side but the game did not register.
On June 22 2017 04:03 chocorush wrote: Sure there are casuals that don't know there is lag. You can't just project that on the FGC as a whole, because that is patently false.
I'm not really saying the FGC as a whole. FGC was extremely niche (especially in the days you mention). Nowdays fighting games are having a resurgence and becoming more mainstream (regularly on first page of twitch). Out of all the players of SF5, Tekken 7, Injustice 2, GG, and so on. What % do you think actually have lagless setups?
Even most players I know who attend tournaments have not invested in their setup.
You need some input lag to allow for a buffer on commands so things like multiple button presses don't require perfect precision. This has traditionally been around 4-5 frames of lag, but tekken had chipped away at this for console releases because of netcode.
If you have established a baseline, 3 frames of lag is when you start noticing it, and feels noticeably worse than 3 frames less. If you play on PC with Vsync off vs Ps4, you definitely feel the difference. If you're only playing offline, the game is objectively worse.
Do you play a lot of tekken? Try reacting to things like Xiaoyu rain dance mixups where you have to attack as soon as you blocked to not get bs'd by her evasion. It has always been hard and is much harder with 3-4 frames of lag over the arcade version.
TTT2 was 101ms of lag. People were not complaining about input lag.
T7 is 27ms more. Now all of a sudden, "128ms is a big deal".
Stop comparing it to other tekken games. Its irrelevant. And your argument is flawed.
If you see "complaining" as proof people are aware then you are wrong. Just because no one talks about it doesnt mean they dont FEEL IT SOMEHOW. They maybe cant explain it, maybe they play online and thinks its the network or just how the game is supposed to be played.
I wont respond to this anymore, its pointless and you keep giving me flawed arguments and baseless crap such as "no right ot complain"
TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS 100 MS LAG IS A BIG FUCKING DEAL, DONT TRY AND SPIN IT AROUND
On June 22 2017 13:11 chocorush wrote: You need some input lag to allow for a buffer on commands so things like multiple button presses don't require perfect precision. This has traditionally been around 4-5 frames of lag, but tekken had chipped away at this for console releases because of netcode.
If you have established a baseline, 3 frames of lag is when you start noticing it, and feels noticeably worse than 3 frames less. If you play on PC with Vsync off vs Ps4, you definitely feel the difference. If you're only playing offline, the game is objectively worse.
Do you play a lot of tekken? Try reacting to things like Xiaoyu rain dance mixups where you have to attack as soon as you blocked to not get bs'd by her evasion. It has always been hard and is much harder with 3-4 frames of lag over the arcade version.
Not sure where the 4-5 numbers are coming from, but both T6 and TTT2 are at 6 frames according to the tested data.
Where did you see any data that suggests the PS4 version has 3 frames of lag difference? All the tests I've seen have a difference under 2 frames (1.7 IIRC). Although to be fair, PC version does not have solid data yet.
These numbers seem to fit under the "3 frames of lag before you start noticing it" though...?
On June 22 2017 20:45 Foxxan wrote:TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS 100 MS LAG IS A BIG FUCKING DEAL, DONT TRY AND SPIN IT AROUND
All I have is 2 points for this:
1) About 40% of fighting games are ABOVE 100ms lag.
2) I'm sorry but, if your saying things like "100 ms lag is a big fucking deal" how am I not supposed to bring up that both T6 and TTT2 were both OVER 100ms lag....?
That's not any spinning at all, it's the truth. Am I supposed to ignore the inconsistency in your argument if over 100ms was acceptable then but is suddenly not now?
It was pretty well known that Tekken 6 on the console added a frame of lag, at least on Japanese message boards.
We know the PC version with VSync on has about 6 frames of lag, at least one less frame than the PS4 version. Disabling V-Sync means inherently removing about 2-3 frames of lag depending on the methods they used, so 3-4 frames of lag is a conservative estimate of the difference between PC Vsync disabled and PS4.
It's pretty obvious at this point that the PS4 version is playable. But the game is obviously better with less input lag. Objectively better, unless you're playing online. Why can't they have different latency when playing on netplay? PC games have done this since the 90s, and it is perfectly acceptable to expect the same standards with today's better hardware.
On June 23 2017 05:44 chocorush wrote: Why can't they have different latency when playing on netplay? PC games have done this since the 90s, and it is perfectly acceptable to expect the same standards with today's better hardware.
In these days rollback netcode is this used. Old-style PC netcode was input delay netcode. This means if the game lagged, your inputs would lag behind to, which made combos extremely hard to time correctly.
Rollback netcode repairs this issue, but it could make the game very jerky with the auto-corrections. So they usually add a few frames of latency in order to make the auto corrects more subtle (or indistinguishable, under good network latency). Check any GGPO enabled game (which is typically thought of as the best fighting game netcode) and you'll see options for how many frames to delay.
The reason they use the added latency on single player as well, is so the game does not feel completely different when playing offline compared to online. Although some (like Guilty Gear) have netcode that dynamically changes the delay as your playing to match network conditions.
The only option that would be better than this, is to have official servers to host the game servers (rather than direct peer 2 peer). Problem is, this extremely expensive for a fighting game, and it could potentially cause even worse issues (if you lived far from the official server, even if you played a friend who lived down the block from you, you 2 would be laggy).
But it should be noted, that it's a bit more complex than the above explanations. For example, I briefly mentioned above that the inputs are "selectively" delayed. If you hit a punch, that will be delayed. But blocking is typically NOT delayed (or at least not to the same extent). This allows players to "react" faster. (this is also why basically all input lag testing is incomplete - it is not factoring differences on which type of inputs). For the record, I am not sure if Tekken uses this method or not. But it is common in rollback style netcode.
Credentials for talking about this type of thing: I created rollback style netcode for an unreleased 3rd person indie game a few years back. It was only used in tech demos, but had full server side projectiles & physics. It looks like a drastically different game (and it is), but the game still uses startup, active, recovery frames, block stun, and hit stun. Mechanically, it functions very similar to a fighting game.
We did a lot of research on how input lag affects gameplay, and analyzed spreadsheets of the numbers in fighting game netcode to better undersatnd how they function. This is why I feel so strongly about common misconceptions about input lag. Link to tech demo:
Last week I finally started… Became Grandmaster with Asuka after ~25 games but now i am kinda stuck. I really suck at juggling-combos but from what i saw on youtube Asuka is luckily not really about that anyway . All these Chars that weren’t in 3 (or at least 4, but i played way less 4) often just run all over me because i have no clue what they can do :D - fuck you Dragunov, Claudio and „Girls that i can’t even identify by their profile pictures“.
In general i can shit all over „Expert“ and lower ranks but greens beat the crap out of me the same way. Also, for some reason, i just get trashed by just about every Heihachi on the Planet :D.
Fun fact: First I played a bit with Xyaou until I realised that I still have muscle memory from Tekken 3 and just can’t correct it, playing her whiteout first learning „correct“ juggling just feels pointless… /sad.
Juggles are fundamental, even if you pick a character like Asuka. Punishment is a huge part of everybody's game and you're going to fall behind if you can't get 25-30% health if they whiff, or when you block really slow lows that crush highs like Bryan's Snake Edge. She also has good CH juggles that are important to her pressure game (like can can). Punishment in general is how you grind out of the mid tier, as there's too much bullshit in this game to deal with if they can do it for free. It is the main reason why it's so important to learn how to move around well in this game, which is the natural progression after getting block punishment down.
The general techniques used in combos in this game is the same for each character, so once you figure it out for one, it's not as hard to apply it to others. Just start with the easy ones, as the advanced combos tend to only do about 4 or 5 more damage (still good to learn eventually because they usually have more wall carry).
I know, but i really hate practicing it "alone" :D... Well, with more play i will get "ok" at it quickly, no worries
(I hope my Input writing is correct, never used it or learnt how to read it until... Yesterday :p). After a launcher (atm mostly f/d+2 and d3+4) I just go for a "2,1,1+2" or "2,1,4" (iirc) and then unblockable (if they stand up) or cancel it and just kick em if they stay down. In General i have problems getting something more after they fall down the first time (i think its called "Screw"?).
All else I try to counter lows with "d3+4". Try to stay at midrange and punish misses/counter with "b3, db4,4,4, 3" Poke with "1,3 or 4" and "b1+4, (3)" Sometimes put a f,f 4, 3+4 or f, f, 3 or f,f,f 3 or 4~3.
Main Problem is lacking knowledge about other characters, especially the not really popular ones. Its a pure guessing game how their combos work and when i can jump, duck or parry punish them. Asuka also doesn't seem to play too well on offense?
Well.. Need more play
Btw: When it comes to lag/delay. Small diffrences can matter. Back in the day a ping of ~100 was deemed okay for online (egoshooters) and felt totally playable, but being over 150ms made everything feel bad. These diffrences matter on how you feel while playing. Its only 20 ms more isn't really an argument because after a certain point you REALLY notice it because controls start feeling sluggish.
Its like the fps discussion. Compare 30 fps vs 60+ fps. 30 is totally playable but if your used to more you'll notice it... Now go down to 20 and even a total casual feels that its not playing how it should anymore.
After the screw, you usually have to either do a forward dash into a move, or a while running attack. Forward dash if you only did like 3 or 4 hits before the move that causes the screw, and a running attack (forward, forward, forward (hold) + button) if you did a longer combo before screw.
Character knowledge is definitely something that comes with just playing more (I find unless you have someone helping you directly, it's almost impossible to figure it out on the fly other than going to practice mode and looking up frame data for each character). In general, you need to watch out for these against pretty much any characters:
Hopkick, anything that launches - Jab punisher, 12 frame punisher. Shoulder attack - jab or 12 frame punisher. Low sweep that launches - Crouching launcher Hellsweep, or any low that causes them to stagger - Crouching launcher Fast low hit - 11 frame while standing move (usually WS 4). If they ever whiff while you are doing a backdash or side step, try to do your generic launcher (d/f + 2 in your case).
The punishers get a lot more complicated when you go into character specific stuff, but these are universal no matter who you are playing against and which character you are playing.
Edit: On top of that, launchers after strings are often launch punishable with d/f +2. Think Xiaoyu rain dance kick, or Law's flip kick strings. Just get in the habit of pushing something after you block these and try launching if it's something that looks very dramatic, and you'll get a feel for what's launch punishable.
Thanks for the tipps, will try Just to understand you, I punish the laucher after the combo, not between last normal hit and his launcher?
If so, yeah, thats how i win games... If not wtf, i'm worse than i imagined .
I tend to get kicked in the ass by stuff that "looks" punishable but isn't really (at least not with the stuff i try to use). The revenge option is glorious btw., the amount of games I turned after "getting it"... Too bad it doesn't work twice, going 1-1 just feels bad. And getting your ass kicked twice but less bad the second time also feels strangely rewarding.
Very few strings are launch interruptible on block, so you're waiting to block the unsafe string ender.
There are quite a few where you can duck the second hit in the middle and interrupt the third hit (sometimes with a launcher).
Many things are not launch punishable (in high level play, people intentionally choose these moves because they are safe(r), while others are just swinging). Most launchers are between 12-14 frames punishable, so they can bait you if you tried to launch punish).
As a visual cue, if a launcher has evasive properties it is more likely to be launch punishable.
Btw: When it comes to lag/delay. Small diffrences can matter. Back in the day a ping of ~100 was deemed okay for online (egoshooters) and felt totally playable, but being over 150ms made everything feel bad. These diffrences matter on how you feel while playing. Its only 20 ms more isn't really an argument because after a certain point you REALLY notice it because controls start feeling sluggish.
Its like the fps discussion. Compare 30 fps vs 60+ fps. 30 is totally playable but if your used to more you'll notice it... Now go down to 20 and even a total casual feels that its not playing how it should anymore.
Just want to point out a couple things based upon the 2 points above, since I've worked on both.
1) Lag/delay. Ping <= 100ms. This was told as a rule, but most people don't understand the rule, or even "why" it was a rule.
The little known truth of the matter: Whether you had 10ms ping, or 100 ms ping, it did not make a difference. And if you had over 100 ping you might as well have had 200 ping. This is the reason it went from being playable, to completely unacceptable, very quickly.
Doesn't make sense? Well, let me go in to the technical reason of why.
Netcode is NOT a "real time" function. It's not 100% continuously sending data non-stop. It's on an interval. This interval has had a standard. Want to take a guess at what the typical interval is? 10 per second. AKA 100ms. This means that every 100ms, the server sends new data out to all connection clients. No faster, no slower.
The netcode also has prediction, it predicts the changes between the last interval and current one, and it uses this to calculate where the character "should" be. This is how the game can look completely smooth on your side. If it detects differences between what is sent from the server & the prediction, it does a "correction". It smoothly blends them together to be least noticable as possible.
So what happens if you had an amazing 10 ping? Well, you would be sending data to the server more regularly about what your doing. But you still won't see anything that anyone else until you reach 100ms.
What happens if your at 150 ping? Well, your slower than this interval. Not only is the server receiving your movements AFTER the earlier interval, but you are also receiving data from the server at a minimum of 200ms rate. What happens at this point, is you see many more "corrections".
Now a part that won't make much sense - even most fast paced games do NOT use intervals much lower than 100ms. Although nowdays you occasionally see one that updates 15 per second. But typically never more. For the reason I just stated above - it basically makes a "standard" rate you want your ping to be at, and at a rate higher than that, it becomes obvious if you are having more "corrections".
Note, that fighting netcode is a slight bit different, as they "intentionally" add a delay, where the game will receive your input, but hold it back for a certain amount of time. Some inputs have a higher "priority" where they will update the host immediately (such as for blocking), some are held back (such as attacks).
Another note - this is completely different from how input delay works. Input delay is received on the next frame, and is not polled. How the game reacts to the input, is a whole different story - and THIS is what you are seeing when people say "X amount of frames input delay". This isn't JUST the hardware latency - some of the input delay is intentionally held back.
In other words, the sluggishness mentioned in the comment I quoted isn't really comparable, because it's received on an interval rather than ASAP, and it gets exponentially worse after the interval.
A more comparable situation that you are talking about is if you are using a TV that is not on game mode. That's an input delaay that's more similar to games input delay. Although as mentioned, games usually prioritize certain inputs to feel more responsive.
Next, on the subject of 30 vs 60 fps. This is a strange subject. To be honest, much of the game development community has been forced to go for 60 fps as a benchmark, because users get upset if you are not 60 fps. But from a design or artistic perspective, it's sub par.
Again, this probably makes no sense.
But there's a good reason why. And it's related to the same exact reason that hollywood movies are not filmed at 60fps.
There's a strange phenomenon with how our eyes work. If an image looks "too perfect" the mind subconsciously starts looking for flaws. 60FPS is great if you are going for a fantasy art style, but if you are going for a realistic art style, the same EXACT artwork has been tested, and the mind sees it as looking more photo realistic at 30fps, rather than 60fps.
Remember when Hobbit was the first movie to attempt going past 30fps? Some people thought it looked great, but a major complaint was that it looked "fake".
Why did 60fps become the standard? Well... these days it's mostly because of the rivalry between BF3 and CoD. That brought the attention to this mainstream. Activision pushed the belief that 60fps made their engine superior. After this, the newer DMC had a similar situation. Both had a huge backlash for not being 60fps. The belief became mainstream, and that was that.
But sad as it sounds, 30fps actually DOES look better artistically. Whether it's better for gameplay... that's a different story. But many of these games would be intentionally going 30fps if it wouldnt cause as much backlash.
This, btw, is part of the reason why some console exclusive games actually look better than PC games. Not simply bc their optimized for the hardware, but if their going for a photorealistic look, 30fps actually is interpreted better by the mind
How are you so sure that that's how it works? By your logic, there would be states where you are blocking but not moving backwards, because movement IS affected by the input buffer. States in the game are pretty much always tied to the animation frames in games where the engine is tied to the framerate.
And even then, input delay on movement is also terrible in a game like tekken where you need to side step and duck on reaction. Extra delay on attacks is terrible because there are so many strings that you need to interrupt and punish. You've given no reason to explain why this delay makes the core experience better (offline, competitive play), yet continue to bash people for not understanding why the hardships of developers.
On June 28 2017 07:42 chocorush wrote: How are you so sure that that's how it works? By your logic, there would be states where you are blocking but not moving backwards, because movement IS affected by the input buffer. States in the game are pretty much always tied to the animation frames in games where the engine is tied to the framerate.
And even then, input delay on movement is also terrible in a game like tekken where you need to side step and duck on reaction. Extra delay on attacks is terrible because there are so many strings that you need to interrupt and punish. You've given no reason to explain why this delay makes the core experience better (offline, competitive play), yet continue to bash people for not understanding why the hardships of developers.
That's just how netcode works because it's not possible to have a constant connection, you have to poll regularly and make it "look" real time as much as possible.
Anyway, about the "blocking having priority aspect", I didn't specifically say that's how Tekken works (and I said the same in an earlier post). But it is a common technique used in rollback netcode. Your job with netcode is to give the illusion of being as responsive as possible. When your playing a FPS and you click the mouse, it immediately does a graphic on your screen and shows a bullet travelling quickly, but that is shown on your side before it reaches the server. The server will only notify you on hit (ever notice in some games you hit an enemy and see blood but they don't die?) and those bullets are actually just rays and the bullets are for show.
Well, the only way it's "better" is delay is used in netcode to give an extra buffer to ensure you won't have any harsh auto corrections. But assuming they balance the startup and recovery frames properly, it should be very subtle, and in theory can be quick enough that it's not noticable.
Yes it does affect movement. But if I attack you and you try to evade, how would you differentiate if it was the natural amount of time it takes your character to go through startup frames on the moving animation, or was it the 2 frames that were added from input delay? Experience from earlier Tekken games doesn't answer that question either, because the amount of frames it takes to startup may have changed between iterations.
And developers are not stupid. The games are built upon frame data, and they balance it around that. They know the exact amount of delay in the game. All the abilities are exactly as hard to block as the developers want them to be. The balancers are balancing it at that amount of response time. If you are not able to avoid an attack fast enough, it's not a situation where your problem is the input delay. The problem you have is with the design of the game.
Even in SF5, people complained that the input delay made it so you can't react. Well they patched the input delay to a reasonable amount. And guess what? You still can't react. It's how the game was intentionally designed. And I do think it sucks, Akuma was one of my mains and he used to be built around playing evasively/reactionary, and it's not even possible anymore. My prob isn't with the input delay, it's an issue with the design.
I don't believe I've "bashed" anyone...? I'm just trying to explain how it works, because if you look in to the subject you can see most of the complaints are caused by misconceptions of how everything comes together, so I'm explaining.
The increased input lag affects offline play, not just online play. Do you even play Tekken? The game is almost the exactly the same for the last 15 years, and it's just the last 2 games that have increased the input lag. Please explain how the game is more balanced. This isn't a case of the devs knowing better what's for the game, it's their inability to split netplay considerations from offline play.
On June 28 2017 11:35 chocorush wrote: The increased input lag affects offline play, not just online play. Do you even play Tekken? The game is almost the exactly the same for the last 15 years, and it's just the last 2 games that have increased the input lag. Please explain how the game is more balanced. This isn't a case of the devs knowing better what's for the game, it's their inability to split netplay considerations from offline play.
Yes I play Tekken. I never said it was more balanced? I'm not sure that anyone has even tested if online and offline play has any differences or not. Same as I'm sure noone tested blocking vs attacking (as I'm sure most are not familiar enough with netcode). But it is typical in the industry these days that usually they want the game to feel consistent between online and offline.
The main point I'm actually sharing is what I bolded in the above post. They balanced the frame data for every single attack in the game around those numbers of input lag. Every ability is EXACTLY as hard to avoid as they want it to be. If it feels like the differences are causing issues where you can not avoid attacks like you used to, the reason is not the input lag. The reason you are upset is their design & balancing.
The frame data hasn't changed for most moves since tekken 5. It's so hard to believe that the real reason is because they really thought hard about the balance of every move.
On June 29 2017 09:54 chocorush wrote: The frame data hasn't changed for most moves since tekken 5. It's so hard to believe that the real reason is because they really thought hard about the balance of every move.
I haven't tried to compare them side to side. But if that is truly the case, then apparently they have decided the 1.7 frame difference was not significant enough to affect anything. Because if they truly did believe that it is an issue, their balancing team would have addressed it.
Not to mention, Harada himself has been very upset with the complaints about lag, saying people have been playing the same version for 2 years and have never had an issue until now.
Tekken 7 in arcades runs natively on PC's. It IS the definitive version, because Namco clearly doesn't give a shit about console players. The PS4 is not the version people have been playing for 2 years, and Koreans and Japanese have always complained that something feels wrong the few times they played in America for the pre-launch tournaments.
There is nothing to defend here other than it is possible that there is just something wrong with the PS4 as a piece of hardware, as the codebase is probably almost identical. You don't seem to be interested in analyzing Tekken critically. If you seriously played the game, you would know that the game is chock full of interactions between 16 and 25 frames, and this is a threshold where being 2-4 frames slow actually does have a measurable impact on gameplay. None of this is new. Tekken in it's current form has been mostly unchanged since Tekken 5 as far as general strategy and frame data, and it's bullshit to think that throwing sand in the gears by adding 2-4 frames of lag is good for the game.
What puzzles me, and what I'm trying to figure out is why the PC would have less lag and be more stable than the PS4. I have not seen anyone complain about offline play on the PS4, and supposedly it have the same fixed input lag as online. So if offline play is fine it means that the delays that the PS4 players are experiencing when online must be significantly exceeding the 7 frames of base input delay. Has this number been confirmed?
7 frames is around 120ms, so the lag issues that PS4 users are seeing are probably "ping spikes" of varying length in the 200+ms region. Harada have dismissed it being about network code and I see no reason to not trust him. He may not be a networking expert, but he works in the field and I'm sure he knows many experts who have briefed him. And shouldn't the PC have the same issues if this was about bad code. I doubt the network code is any different for the two versions, and supposedly the battles are run on P2P, so you can't blame it on PS4 running on poor servers.
So unless I've overlooked something, it's not the networking code or anything that has anything to do with the actual application. And then the only thing I can think of is that the PS4 players for some reason have on average, noticeably weaker internet connections. Is there something wrong with the networking components of the PS4? I highly doubt that, but you never know. I haven't heard much from Xbox1 players, but they seem to be having similar problems, which would dispel the faulty component theory, but actually I'm not sure if they have it any better.
The best explanation I can think of is that a huge amount of PS4 players still haven't plugged in their internet cables and are playing on wifi, leading to slower speeds on average (probably not an issue for most), but more importantly the occasional packet loss, which would lead to lag spikes.
I can't get a good PS4 connection with people wired an hour drive away (Madison to Milwaukee). The netplay is not good. To be honest, it's not that much better on PC either, but the problem is more to do with the junk infrastructure we have in America compared to Japan where they probably did most of their testing.
People will complain about the netplay because that's what most console players in america are playing on. The input lag discussion is specifically an issue with offline competitive players, and there is a noticeable difference. The PS4 version is playable, but it is absolutely an inferior version to play on.
On June 29 2017 21:51 chocorush wrote: Tekken 7 in arcades runs natively on PC's. It IS the definitive version, because Namco clearly doesn't give a shit about console players. The PS4 is not the version people have been playing for 2 years, and Koreans and Japanese have always complained that something feels wrong the few times they played in America for the pre-launch tournaments.
There is nothing to defend here other than it is possible that there is just something wrong with the PS4 as a piece of hardware, as the codebase is probably almost identical. You don't seem to be interested in analyzing Tekken critically. If you seriously played the game, you would know that the game is chock full of interactions between 16 and 25 frames, and this is a threshold where being 2-4 frames slow actually does have a measurable impact on gameplay. None of this is new. Tekken in it's current form has been mostly unchanged since Tekken 5 as far as general strategy and frame data, and it's bullshit to think that throwing sand in the gears by adding 2-4 frames of lag is good for the game.
First off, the PS4 version (with the highest increase) has been measured at 1.7 frames difference... not 2-4 or anything like that.
Second, no one has ever said it was better for the game either. Not sure why you keep arguing against comments that were never said. I reiterated my words twice to make the point clear, and both of those times did not say it was "better", I specifically said that it was designed exactly to the specifications that the developers wanted, and everything is exactly as easy or hard to defend as they designed it to be. If it's how the developers designed it to be, how could it be any "better" or "worse"? I said the problem you have is with the "DESIGN' and not the "INPUT LAG".
You keep arguing and trying to shoot down peoples credibility, yet your ruining your own credibility, by arguing points that nobody even said, as well as continuously exaggerating the amount of lag higher & higher - from "128ms ADDITIONAL" when it was actaully 27ms difference, to now exaggerating by saying "2-4 frames of lag" when it's actually been measured as a 1.7 frame increase from previous games.
Where's the honesty, man? Is this an actual discussion, or are u just trolling/arguing for the hell of it?
On June 30 2017 00:21 L1ghtning wrote: What puzzles me, and what I'm trying to figure out is why the PC would have less lag and be more stable than the PS4. I have not seen anyone complain about offline play on the PS4, and supposedly it have the same fixed input lag as online. So if offline play is fine it means that the delays that the PS4 players are experiencing when online must be significantly exceeding the 7 frames of base input delay. Has this number been confirmed?
It's likely just the sacrifices they made for optimizing on PS4 with forced vsync. Similar issues happened on SF5. There's a rumor going around (I believe started by ChrisG) saying that being on PS4 is the reason. But this isn't true, for example the GG Xrd input delay is lower than the competition and is natively on PS4, and uses the same game engine.
Shader versions are a likely culprit as well. If you were to emulate the same exact options as PS4 uses on PC, it would probably give the same amount of input delay. But with the expanded options PC has, you can make the game run smoother. Some may think that using higher quality shaders will make the game run worse, but on newer hardware, higher quality shaders actually run BETTER. This is why with some games, you will get a crap frame rate on low graphics, and/or introduce microstutter, while medium or high might run smoother FPS.
Sadly, T7 didn't learn much from SF5's release. I hoped they would with the 2 year delay. But, japanese game developers don't exactly have the best reputation for being adaptable...
Also, note that no one has even compiled test data on the PC version. It's mostly heresay at this point. The only tests publicized so far were on PS4/PS4Pro/XB1, and while some have described it as "significant difference", the difference was actually only about 1 frame (15ms IIRC). The difference between PS4 version and past PS4 versions of Tekken, is 1.7 frames.
We would need multiple tests on the PC version to know exactly how it matches up - vsync on/off, AA options, etc etc. Similar to SF5.
On June 30 2017 00:38 chocorush wrote: I can't get a good PS4 connection with people wired an hour drive away (Madison to Milwaukee). The netplay is not good. To be honest, it's not that much better on PC either, but the problem is more to do with the junk infrastructure we have in America compared to Japan where they probably did most of their testing.
People will complain about the netplay because that's what most console players in america are playing on. The input lag discussion is specifically an issue with offline competitive players, and there is a noticeable difference. The PS4 version is playable, but it is absolutely an inferior version to play on.
Regarding the PC version primarily, IDK about this one either. I live in Los Angeles, and my primary training partner is Toronto, Canada, and we play regularly on PC without issues. It's really hard to be in the same region and logistically be at a larger distance than we are! If it can hold up for us, it should def be able to hold up for you at that range.
It actually runs better than SF5 does for us. If you are having issues with someone just 1 hour away on a wired connection, you guys need to troubleshoot your connections and/or do some traceroutes to see what the exact problem is.
As long as your ISP isn't providing you shit service, tour results should definitely be reasonable. No reason that you should have over ~45-50 ping at that distance at the maximum.
That said, the game does have a lot of weirdness with connections and NAT issues. It's the first game I've actually had to port forward in probably 3-4 years. Which is pretty sad in 2017 tbh.
I can assist on how to troubleshoot your connection probs if you'd like.
I've explained this before. The 1.7 frames you mentioned is the difference between PS4 and PC with VSync On. Technologically speaking, V-Sync inherently increases input lag, so 2-4 frames of lag is conservative if you are comparing to the PC version with V-Sync off. Depending on the implementation, it can increase it even more. Is there even a point in arguing over this?
You keep saying this is designed. What is the point of designing the game to lag more on PS4 over the PC (The PC version being the original version)? This is almost certainly not introduced by design. Maybe it was an effect that they decided to live with, but you can't possibly make the argument that they balanced the game around this extra lag.
On July 04 2017 07:05 chocorush wrote: I've explained this before. The 1.7 frames you mentioned is the difference between PS4 and PC with VSync On. Technologically speaking, V-Sync inherently increases input lag, so 2-4 frames of lag is conservative if you are comparing to the PC version with V-Sync off. Depending on the implementation, it can increase it even more. Is there even a point in arguing over this?
You keep saying this is designed. What is the point of designing the game to lag more on PS4 over the PC (The PC version being the original version)? This is almost certainly not introduced by design. Maybe it was an effect that they decided to live with, but you can't possibly make the argument that they balanced the game around this extra lag.
You are mistaken (or, based on what I mentioned in the last post, exaggerating to try to support your point). The 1.7 frames difference is between previous Tekken games (Such as TTT2) and T7.
As mentioned earlier, PC version has not had any solid tests publicized. The only testing AT ALL has been from a twitter user @noodalls, who put it at 105.8ms with vsync on. He put the PS4 version at 120.5ms. This is UNDER the number you keep giving out. And this puts the PC version basically on par with XB version. You can see for yourself: https://twitter.com/noodalls
Also, as mentioned, if you emulate the PS4 video settings you would likely have similar outcome, and again as mentioned, there's a good chance it's to do with varied shader versions. Newer shader versions actually run faster (especially if we discuss the ones created in the PS4 era) and keep in mind PS4 does not even run on DirectX, while Windows does.
To be clear (and VERY specific) - according to Noodalis's tests with his setup - including some numbers that were previously not included: TTT2 input lag: 100ms (according to previous tests) T7 PS4 Pro: 120.5ms T7 PS4 : 120ms T7 PS4 @720: 119.9ms T7 PS4 ONLINE: 113.6ms T7 PC: 105.8ms (he does NOT specify options for this one) T7 X1: 104.2ms
So where exactly are these "3-4 added frames" you keep mentioning....? The biggest difference is 16ms. 16ms is slightly UNDER 1 frame!
And btw, the numbers showing that online has a different number, is confirmation for what I described eariler about netcode (which you argued with). This shows that the game does indeed handle inputs differently in different cirumstances.
Again, I ask you the question: Where is the honesty? Are you just trolling/arguing for the hell of it? Because I linked you all these things already, are you are still saying misleading information, and giving numbers that consistently don't match up to those provided as evidence. Which means you are either intentionally exaggerating, or you have been arguing without even looking at any information provided.
When comparing versions of tekken 7 I've consistently been estimating 2-4 frames estimating on the one frame difference you mentioned + the effect of Vsync, which is shockingly... at least 2 frames of lag and usually more. You are choosing to think that I am lying about something.
On July 04 2017 08:37 chocorush wrote: When comparing versions of tekken 7 I've consistently been estimating 2-4 frames estimating on the one frame difference you mentioned + the effect of Vsync, which is shockingly... at least 2 frames of lag and usually more. You are choosing to think that I am lying about something.
Seriously? You have been saying things about 3+ frames "difference" and mentioning in different ways about how that makes it feel worse since the beginning?
If you have established a baseline, 3 frames of lag is when you start noticing it, and feels noticeably worse than 3 frames less
...
Online is going to feel different from offline. It's stupid to tie the two together.
...
Tekken 7 in arcades runs natively on PC's. It IS the definitive version, because Namco clearly doesn't give a shit about console players. The PS4 is not the version people have been playing for 2 years, and Koreans and Japanese have always complained that something feels wrong the few times they played in America for the pre-launch tournaments.
...
this is a threshold where being 2-4 frames slow actually does have a measurable impact on gameplay.
Meanwhile, the arcade version, as you said runs on PC's, but the difference between the truth and what your saying is that there was NOT a difference of 2-4 frames. Now your claiming it was vsync, but this isn't true. Because the arcade version DOES have vsync! All the tournaments run with vsync on, and it's the standard, to a point that vsync off wasn't even tested. Furthermore, the better system you have, the less viable of an option vsync is, because on strong systems the tearing gets so bad it can cause microstuttering. On my laptop shutting vsync works fine, but on my home PC it's unreasonable.
And we can confirm that online functions different from offline anyway, which was another part of your complaints.
Regardless of how you look at it, in the "definitive version" in the arcades is WITH vsync on, and that version is below your "2-4 frames difference", as well as below your "3 frames where you start noticing it"... that's the reality, at the arcade, in tournaments, and its within that difference from past Tekken games, IF YOU PUT VSYNC ON at home. .
I will admit to having a false memory because you quoted a post where I said 2-4 frames of lag, but you literally asked me where I got the 3-4 frame number and I explained how you get there with the V-Sync adjustment. You're being pretty unreasonable here if you're trying to suggest that I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air.
I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea that V-Sync was a set standard on arcade. I've never seen configuration options. V-Sync was definitely not always implemented though in the past. Microstutter isn't really an issue because the framerate is capped at 60fps with or without v-sync on, and arcade cabinets had standardized hardware of generally higher quality than a generic pc+monitor setup.
If top Koreans and Japanese are feeling the difference, I'm inclined to think you're reaching that 3 frame threshold, but I'm willing to concede this point if presented evidence. But to say that the extra lag on PS4 is by design? That just doesn't make sense.
I saw a thread on tekken zaiabatsu forum that stated turning vsync off on pc do reduce the input lag by 2-4 compared to the ps4. At the same time, there has been no "true" test on the pc yet as far i know. The guy that tested the ps4 input lag and other games will probably test it later, he twittered that he had new gear to test stuff with. Yes he did test pc a bit but with lesser gear or something.
Still waiting for a true test of pc, right?
Further, i have also read that the monitor on your pc and your tv on your ps4 can matter as well.
Now for the love of god, stop to talk about this issue any further since what has been going on is going in circles alot of the time. The last 20 comments has been total shit. Go PM if it is so important to accuse someone of lying when he clearly isnt. Btw, go PM anyway unless you have something new and constructive to say.
Input lag its just even 1 frame is smtg, not a lot, if you can get ur game to have only 1 frame of lag thats perfect, always better, but you need a good screen too (a CRT is nice^^). If the game is great and you can play it with no lag, thats perfect! particularly important for a fighting game ofc, frame advantages matter and eh, 1 frame more can make difference between hit or miss right? afaik its known fact that Vsync causes input lag by definition so you want to turn that off for playing games few frames of lag you want to get rid of that
Top8 of T7 was amazing, props to the competitors, and major props to the winner. JDCR is too solid right now. Last year was Saint's year, this year its JDCR's.
Thinking of trying out Heihachi now for that grown man EWGF damage.
Question... I see all these streams of "good" people and they sometimes aren't even greenranked. Whats going on? They just play among people they know or what?
Nah, this can't be the issue.. I had some promo matches and some "down" matches and never quit got green (still can't really juggle, but i block WAAAY better than well, nearly all people i match up to). Finding a game was never an issue.
Really? And just because it works for you, it works for all, right? I never said lag issues in the first place, i said conenction issues such as "cant connect to opponent" or disconnect in the middle of a fight.
Also input lag on ps4 turn players away, meaning less players playing.
On July 18 2017 03:24 Foxxan wrote: Not sure. Could maybe be because of connection issues, harder to find people the higher you get. Less people playing because of it aswell.
Jaeddong or whats his name makes me wanna play eddy. He almost took down jdcr. Dont forget that. So small marginals in this game sometimes.
JeonDDing, and yeah that Eddy was cool as fuck. I don't play much Tekken and don't have T7 yet, but I was loving EVO and taking lots of mental notes on what to try out when I finally pick it up. Great event.
On July 18 2017 03:39 Foxxan wrote: Really? And just because it works for you, it works for all, right? I never said lag issues in the first place, i said conenction issues such as "cant connect to opponent" or disconnect in the middle of a fight.
Also input lag on ps4 turn players away, meaning less players playing.
Dunno, i'm pc masterrace...
cannot find opponent happens sometiems, but its not enough to be worth bitching about.
That was actually some of the better Fighting Game casting i've seen. Don't know shit about Tekken and truthfully dont enjoy it, but i very much enjoyed that cast
wish more koreans had the ability to fly to overseas tournaments. a huge ton of talent domestically like GoAttack (Master Raven) and Kudans (Devil Jin) who don't have the opportunities like JDCR/Saint/Knee.
That would be sweet with more good koreans. Its always fun to see many characters used at high level.
Appaerantly, PC version of tekken has 60 input delay with vsync off: Personally iam a noob at this. The graph in the video doesnt show us vsync off in online matches, but only offline. It seems that vsync works both ways(offline and online) so yes, it looks like vsync do reduce your input delay even in online matches. Correct me if iam wrong.
It is quite noticeable. We turn on V-sync for local gatherings out of courtesy to PS4 players. Only one person has really complained about it when we had it off, and the other guy who seemed affected drops combos anyways on PS4. *shrug*
For what it's worth, the learning curve is way less steep than Brood War. People also seem to have fun at very wide ranges of skill. Especially if you're playing online, it's probably easier to beat the average person in ranked than it is to win a D- ICCup game.
On September 23 2017 04:18 chocorush wrote: For what it's worth, the learning curve is way less steep than Brood War. People also seem to have fun at very wide ranges of skill. Especially if you're playing online, it's probably easier to beat the average person in ranked than it is to win a D- ICCup game.
Disagree, you'll have more or less the same experience playing both games. If you're playing somebody that knows what they are doing the losses in Tekken will actually feel much worse than BW, since in BW you more or less have instant feedback and can know why you fell behind + what you could have done better. Compare that to the head scratching and frustration of not even know what to focus on and where to start once you hit a speed bump in Tekken.
On September 23 2017 07:53 Agh wrote: If you're playing somebody that knows what they are doing the losses in Tekken will actually feel much worse than BW, since in BW you more or less have instant feedback and can know why you fell behind + what you could have done better. Compare that to the head scratching and frustration of not even know what to focus on and where to start once you hit a speed bump.
I fervently disagree with this. I think feedback in fighters is much quicker simply because the games are shorter, among other things. I haven't played much SC in the past 4-5 years but one of the things that originally appealed to me about fighting games OVER starcraft was the more visceral fights (not literally but from a gameplay/competitive perspective). Short, brutal losses that you can immediately assess what you were doing wrong, what you kept getting hit by, etc. In starcraft a mistake or econ loss to harass before the 5-10 minute mark doesn't play out into an overwhelming loss until 20-30 min later. Or just "trying out" something new could go horribly wrong for reasons unrelated to the change you made. There are so many small decisions that all add up over the course of a very long game where it's easy to miss things that happened when you become overwhelmed. There are many small decisions in fighters too, but it's right there in your face. If you try abusing a move that you haven't really used before and they keep punishing you for it, you know you shouldn't do that. If you keep getting beat up by tools in a matchup you're not familiar with, you see what they're doing and can go specifically practice against it with a friend or in training mode.
Note that I'm not saying Tekken/fighters are EASIER than brood war or anything. I think it's tricky to compare the two. But the idea that you can just "get lost on how to improve" in fighters when "feedback is instant" in starcraft is way off imo.
Prior to tekkenbot overlay for PC, you really had to way of knowing if the the move you got hit by was -13 or -15 without going to training mode, finding the move, recording it, and testing and/or researching the frame data online (still have to know the name/input to verify). You can in no way gain 'immediate' correct feedback on what is optimal in the situation. That is a huge deal, and takes an extraordinary amount of time + effort to not only figure out, but also implement in your play. I play both at a very, very high level and I can safely say that your opinion and outlook needs revisiting.
What Brood War has going for it, is that it's mostly the same game for 20 years, and we've collected a massive amount of English information about it. You've also probably watched tons of videos of high level play, possibly with English commentary, just for fun, so you're going to absorb a lot of information passively as well.
If we're talking about playing against experienced players, that same player can probably give a simple explanation of what happened, and what you could have done against it.
In fact most reasons why you get hit are on the lines of: You were already at frame disadvantage when you tried to attack You were not correctly spaced to do what you want and you whiffed and got punished The other player has an evasive option that he can use in that situation
And the solutions to these things are actually kind of the same. You develop a toolset of what works when you are at minor disadvantage, neutral situations, minor advantage, and heavy advantage, and there are even situations that have "solutions" that will always work, like blocking or ducking and punishing.
Specifically how you got into a disadvantaged state doesn't really affect what options you have now or in the future. In Brood War, how you got there from 5 or 10 minutes ago dictates your current options, as you will have fewer resources or the wrong resources. So the answer to Brood War problems isn't really straightforward.
Edit: Maybe you have no way to know exact frame data, but especially if you're playing someone competent, there is feedback. When you jab after you block a -12 frame move, they get hit. Especially if you don't know the matchup, things like this should happen all the time over the natural course of events.
And there's a lot of stuff that is generically true, like most hopkicks being -12 or worse. You can learn quite a lot by just throwing things out, even 15 frame launchers, after you block them and seeing what works or not.
This was such a great match. I still need to catch up on the vods from the whole weekend but this clip was making the rounds for sure. The last minute is too much.
Tekken World Tour is on going. Last spot participation tournament is on going AT THIS MOMENT. Started almost 2hours ago. The finals are in tomorrow(very early, 04:00 cest i believe)
To those unaware, pakistani players have entered the scene, challenging the koreans big time. Many even saying the pakistani players are the best in the world, and its not just 1 or 2, there are several really great ones. With that said, this tournament is the most hyped since the release of Tekken 7. Its Korea vs pakistani, while Anakin seems to have improved big time from America and another hyped player is "Super Akouma" from france. What chocked many people is that pakistani players used akuma very succesfull, while many were stating that akuma was very weak.
We will also most likely get the announcement of more DLC character and more information about the current ongoing dlc character. The next patch for tekken 7 will be great, a dlc character which is really hyped, most hyped character in a long time. Also framedata and punish guide incoming. First time ever we will see Frame data in the actual game.
I must say that out of the 3 big 3d fighters (Tekken, Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur) Tekken is looking the worst and fights are the most boring. It's still enjoyable though.
On December 07 2019 17:53 Manit0u wrote: I must say that out of the 3 big 3d fighters (Tekken, Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur) Tekken is looking the worst and fights are the most boring. It's still enjoyable though.
Really? I think Soul Calibur looks beyond boring. Tekken is imho a bit too juggle heavy which made me quit it ~1-2 months after it's release (made it to green ranks and was doing quite well in General, just couldn't be bothered to learn the perfect strings to push myself further).
Tekken 7 is one of the best fighting games on the market right now hands down. The competitive scene has seen persistent growth over the last few years in entrants, prize pools, number of major events. It's very reminiscient of Street Fighter 4 to me, which just kept growing and growing and showcasing some of the tightest high level gameplay year after year even though it came with it's fair share of criticisms as well.
The competition at the highest levels has had some fascinating story arcs, especially Pakistan out of nowhere this year. The top of the cast could probably use some tiny balance adjustments, but they have been making small changes over time during and between the big "season" releases. And most importantly they are small and careful changes, aiming to bring everyone in line and enhance the game long-term, instead of just absolutely gutting whatever character seems most common at the moment. They also keep giving the rest of the cast that feels like it's lagging behind a bit new tools and small buffs to make them more exciting to play/watch.
It's my favorite fighting game out there right now, and I don't even play a ton at all. The spectator experience is just that good and there are so many events to always be looking forward to. The TWT Top 8 itself could have been a bit more exciting, but there were some gems (Anakin's matches come to mind), and the Last Chance Qualifier from the day before was SUPER good, and I'd actually recommend that over the finals day to anyone interested in catching up a bit.
On December 07 2019 17:53 Manit0u wrote: I must say that out of the 3 big 3d fighters (Tekken, Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur) Tekken is looking the worst and fights are the most boring. It's still enjoyable though.
Really? I think Soul Calibur looks beyond boring. Tekken is imho a bit too juggle heavy which made me quit it ~1-2 months after it's release (made it to green ranks and was doing quite well in General, just couldn't be bothered to learn the perfect strings to push myself further).
Most of the 3d fighting games are pretty juggle heavy as this is usually the only way to ensure your strings connect due to mechanics (in DoA you have holds which can interrupt you mid-combo even if some of it already connected, SC has guard impacts, soul charge and such, Tekken is just poking to find an opening for a launcher to deliver the real damage).
And by grading Tekken as the most boring I've looked past just regular mechanics. Out of the 3 games it has - the least 3d movement - the most dull stages (SC has ringouts, more varied stages and better looking ones, DoA is on another level here with stages that have obstacles, breaking parts that do damage and sometimes move you to entirely different stage, stages with varying elevation levels which affects juggles, different surfaces which have side-effects like slip-stun etc.) - the most boring meter mechanics - it does have a lot of characters and customization but it's a moot point if it has the worst graphics aesthetically and is so dark that you barely see anything (the fact that historically Tekken used hit effects to hide blows not connecting/passing through enemies and other flaws in their engine doesn't help either)
It's hard for me to get excited when I can hardly see anything that's going on...
Now compare it to how clean DoA looks, where graphics are much better, animation much smoother and you clearly see every move a character makes so you can follow the action without even knowing the movelists.
I'm playing all 3 titles. But for me Tekken is the worst, despite having the biggest community. It just feels really clunky and unresponsive, not to mention uninspired. But that's just my opinion.
Tekken 7 is still continuing to grow, which is pretty crazy for a game that will be 5 years old soon. Seems like every other FG has had a 6 month shelf life. Harada is very in touch with the scene. He's been adding a lot of what players want and has actually shrugged off Tekken 8 because he said the current game is doing well so it doesn't make sense to release a new one.
Tekken's movement is probably more responsive than soulcalibur but there is an execution barrier. That's why when pro's move it looks really clean and nothing like amateur's movement.
On December 10 2019 20:11 Agh wrote: Tekken 7 is still continuing to grow, which is pretty crazy for a game that will be 5 years old soon. Seems like every other FG has had a 6 month shelf life. Harada is very in touch with the scene. He's been adding a lot of what players want and has actually shrugged off Tekken 8 because he said the current game is doing well so it doesn't make sense to release a new one.
Sure, it does make sense to wait for the next gen consoles with the new entry. I just hope they can make the meter mechanics more entertaining then and make graphics a bit brighter because it's definitely too dark right now.
Tekken is one of my fav game to watch and play. I never have time to play so never got past the green rank but i enjoy watching it. Good to see that Leroy took a healthy nerf to the head.