With the recent announcement that Denis Villeneuve will indeed direct the upcoming Dune movie (source) i started my reread of the whole series (i am almost done with book one) and was surprised to not find any thread for it on TL. So i just made one
Small summary:
Dune is a 1965 epic science fiction novel by American author Frank Herbert, originally published as two separate serials in Analog magazine. It tied with Roger Zelazny's This Immortal for the Hugo Award in 1966,[3] and it won the inaugural Nebula Award for Best Novel.[4] It is the first installment of the Dune saga, and in 2003 was cited as the world's best-selling science fiction novel.[5][6]
Set in the distant future amidst a feudal interstellar society in which noble houses, in control of individual planets, owe allegiance to the Padishah Emperor, Dune tells the story of young Paul Atreides, whose noble family accepts the stewardship of the desert planet Arrakis. As this planet is the only source of the "spice" melange, the most important and valuable substance in the universe, control of Arrakis is a coveted — and dangerous — undertaking. The story explores the multi-layered interactions of politics, religion, ecology, technology, and human emotion, as the forces of the empire confront each other in a struggle for the control of Arrakis and its "spice".[7]
Herbert wrote five sequels: Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, and Chapterhouse: Dune. The first novel also inspired a 1984 film adaptation by David Lynch, the 2000 Sci-Fi Channel miniseries Frank Herbert's Dune and its 2003 sequel Frank Herbert's Children of Dune (which combines the events of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune), computer games, several board games, songs, and a series of followups, including prequels and sequels, that were co-written by Kevin J. Anderson and the author's son, Brian Herbert, starting in 1999.[8]
Since 2009, the names of planets from the Dune novels have been adopted for the real-life nomenclature of plains and other features on Saturn's moon Titan
I really think everybody who is vaguely into reading should experience the DUNE series. It's probably one of the very best scifi/fantasy/whatever you wanna call it series ever. Just read it. Not sure how we should act about spoilers, there is a movie upcoming, there will be new readers (i hope), etc. I think for a start spoiler tags would be a good way to deal with it. The spice must flow!
Is there a certain point where I should stop reading them? I've heard the series is prolific (and ruined sci-fi*) but also that the author didn't write every single book.
*because every subsequent sci-fi book became enormous.
My told me that only the first three are worth reading (I don't think he read past the 6th or maybe not even that far), but then someone else told me that the 4th book is the best. I still haven't read past the 3rd, but I intend to read at least the 4th to 6th, though I will have to read the first 3 again to remember names and such.
I guess to clarify what I mean: the Dune books didn't just build a narrative, they built an entire universe around it, which is apparently different from what a lot of other sci-fi authors did.
In general i would say that all 6 of Frank Herbert's books are worth the read. It's really an epic which was set up for multiple books because you need the space to develop the themes he is going for here (and wow how he did that) It's just that the styles of the books change a bit, the first is the most approachable which is why it's the most popular in general. So if you really don't want to invest a lot it might be fine to just read that, it kinda stands on its own. Though as i said, every book of Frank is worth it and usually people say the payoff is worth it. Though you have to know that there should have been a 7th book (most likely) so it kinda ends with open plot points. (Frank Herbert died before, RIP) His son wrote more books after that, but he simply isn't on the same lvl as his father. I only read one of those and it was ok if you just wanna have some more plot, but he cannot match the thematic depth, the writing style, anything really. So i would stop after the first 6 books which are:
Dune Dune Messiah Children of Dune God Emperor of Dune Heretics of Dune Chapterhouse: Dune
On April 16 2017 00:27 intotheheart wrote: I guess to clarify what I mean: the Dune books didn't just build a narrative, they built an entire universe around it, which is apparently different from what a lot of other sci-fi authors did.
Yes he builds a very coherent universe, with its own history, cultures, religions, philosophies, ecologies, etc It's incredibly in depth and he doesn't spoonfeed any information really. So you kinda get thrown in and have to figure it out as you go. It's kinda fantasy like (which always does a lot of worldbuilding) but it actually has depth to it as well, not just arbitrary details.
So there really is no way that the new movie will be able to delve into everything, but i am hopeful that denis villeneuve will still produce a great work on its own.
I'll probably read the first 6 at most then, I find it's hard to enjoy a book if its quality of writing is significantly lower than the previous one in its installment.
The first three make up one story. Frank Herbert wrote parts of 2 and 3 before he had finished 1. I tend to think of it like an unbalanced symmetry because he never finished book 7, but 1-3 is the first part, book 4 is the fulcrum, and 5-6 is the second part. Book 4, God Emperor, is the best one for me, and books 5 and 6 are a bit disappointing compared to the first 4, but they add in detail that makes the first 4 feel more full.
I generally recommend the first 4 strongly, and if enjoyed then 5 and 6. But nothing by his son. Supposedly he has Frank Herbert's notes, but from reading enough interviews I know that he also made up a ton of crap for his books that were not in Frank Herberts notes, and a comparison will also show contradictions and points where it becomes very clear his son did not understand the originals. Avoid at all costs.
On April 16 2017 03:28 flowSthead wrote: The first three make up one story. Frank Herbert wrote parts of 2 and 3 before he had finished 1. I tend to think of it like an unbalanced symmetry because he never finished book 7, but 1-3 is the first part, book 4 is the fulcrum, and 5-6 is the second part. Book 4, God Emperor, is the best one for me, and books 5 and 6 are a bit disappointing compared to the first 4, but they add in detail that makes the first 4 feel more full.
I generally recommend the first 4 strongly, and if enjoyed then 5 and 6. But nothing by his son. Supposedly he has Frank Herbert's notes, but from reading enough interviews I know that he also made up a ton of crap for his books that were not in Frank Herberts notes, and a comparison will also show contradictions and points where it becomes very clear his son did not understand the originals. Avoid at all costs.
The books Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson wrote aren't that bad for the most part. They are rather mediocre books, but not nearly as awful as you'd think from listening to Dune fans. Dune fans mostly hate them since they are seen as exploiting and tarnishing Frank Herbert's legacy, but the books' contents themselves are middling.
I wouldn't recommend them, but I don't think they are horrible either.
The problem is that Frank's books are absolutely incredible. If you then write stuff which is kinda cool but has none of the depth of the original dune work then fans might get upset. Especially with the way Brian behaves. Frank was a genius, Brian is a mediocre author
While it has been a few years since the last time I've reread them, I can only echo the sentiments in this thread that say the 6 are worth reading. 5 and 6 are after a huge time skip but still feel Dune-like (first 3). 4th book is a being of its own, really. Dune really is a sci-fi classic and staple, much like Assimov's Foundation Series.
I haven't read anything by his Frank Herbert's son, so I can't comment on those works.
On April 16 2017 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: The problem is that Frank's books are absolutely incredible. If you then write stuff which is kinda cool but has none of the depth of the original dune work then fans might get upset. Especially with the way Brian behaves. Frank was a genius, Brian is a mediocre author
I don't disagree, but fans sometimes act like the stuff Brian wrote is as bad as The Eye of Argon. In a vacuum the books are neither particularly good nor especially bad.
On April 16 2017 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: The problem is that Frank's books are absolutely incredible. If you then write stuff which is kinda cool but has none of the depth of the original dune work then fans might get upset. Especially with the way Brian behaves. Frank was a genius, Brian is a mediocre author
I don't disagree, but fans sometimes act like the stuff Brian wrote is as bad as The Eye of Argon. In a vacuum the books are neither particularly good nor especially bad.
I would agree with that. But it's not a vacuum and his general behavior is abysmal as well. But yeah don't make this a bash thread of Brian. At least he gave us the opportunity to see a DUNE movie by Denis Villeneuve, which is fine by me
On April 16 2017 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: The problem is that Frank's books are absolutely incredible. If you then write stuff which is kinda cool but has none of the depth of the original dune work then fans might get upset. Especially with the way Brian behaves. Frank was a genius, Brian is a mediocre author
I don't disagree, but fans sometimes act like the stuff Brian wrote is as bad as The Eye of Argon. In a vacuum the books are neither particularly good nor especially bad.
I would agree with that. But it's not a vacuum and his general behavior is abysmal as well. But yeah don't make this a bash thread of Brian. At least he gave us the opportunity to see a DUNE movie by Denis Villeneuve, which is fine by me
Let's see how good it is first. Can't be worse than the 1984 version.
It's good but a bit heavy and slow, I don't know how to word it in English. A good comparison could be Tolkien, who could get away with it because he actually wrote very well, better than Herbert. I would have prefered a cleaner and simpler style.
On April 16 2017 06:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: The problem is that Frank's books are absolutely incredible. If you then write stuff which is kinda cool but has none of the depth of the original dune work then fans might get upset. Especially with the way Brian behaves. Frank was a genius, Brian is a mediocre author
I don't disagree, but fans sometimes act like the stuff Brian wrote is as bad as The Eye of Argon. In a vacuum the books are neither particularly good nor especially bad.
I would agree with that. But it's not a vacuum and his general behavior is abysmal as well. But yeah don't make this a bash thread of Brian. At least he gave us the opportunity to see a DUNE movie by Denis Villeneuve, which is fine by me
Let's see how good it is first. Can't be worse than the 1984 version.
Oh yeah it will be tough to make a good DUNE movie, but Villeneuve seems to be a fan and his movies so far have been excellent so i like the chance.
On April 16 2017 07:19 nojok wrote: It's good but a bit heavy and slow, I don't know how to word it in English. A good comparison could be Tolkien, who could get away with it because he actually wrote very well, better than Herbert. I would have prefered a cleaner and simpler style.
I think the prose works quite well and the depth of the work is on such a level that it couldn't be done in any other way. I would take Herbert over Tolkien any day
Huge Dune fan here, have read the original upwards of 10 times, and the full series at least 4 or 5. I haven't touched Brian Herberts books further than the first page of one of his 'prequels'. I read his description of the younger Baron Harkonnen as a lithe and supple young man and put the book down.
Not sure what to expect from the movie. It is such a hard experience to capture on film. Everything is in the nuance. It has such a rich background and behind the narrative cultural tapestry that I think even the most talented director would find difficult to represent in a normal 90minute-ish production.
On the other hand, of course I am excited for more Dune material. However, I doubt that anything can top the 'movie' that Frank Herbert already implanted in my head.
On a semi-related note, Roger Zelazny wrote my second favourite series of all time: 'The Chronicles of Amber' which is another epic (unfortunately, he also died after completing the 10th book, having planned the series for a full 15 (they are quite short individually so don't be scared)). Although easier to access and understand than Dune, the characters, writing style are extremely charismatic.
There used to be an amazingly knowledgeable Dune aficionado on the IMDB boards, but since they disabled it all his wisdom has been lost
Also, on the Tolkein vs Herbert debate, I find Tolkein to be a very boring writer. He created an amazing world, but it is serious effort to get through his books. Herbert however keeps me entertained and wanting more from each page.
On April 16 2017 16:31 w(oO)t wrote: Huge Dune fan here, have read the original upwards of 10 times, and the full series at least 4 or 5. I haven't touched Brian Herberts books further than the first page of one of his 'prequels'. I read his description of the younger Baron Harkonnen as a lithe and supple young man and put the book down.
Not sure what to expect from the movie. It is such a hard experience to capture on film. Everything is in the nuance. It has such a rich background and behind the narrative cultural tapestry that I think even the most talented director would find difficult to represent in a normal 90minute-ish production.
On the other hand, of course I am excited for more Dune material. However, I doubt that anything can top the 'movie' that Frank Herbert already implanted in my head.
On a semi-related note, Roger Zelazny wrote my second favourite series of all time: 'The Chronicles of Amber' which is another epic (unfortunately, he also died after completing the 10th book, having planned the series for a full 15 (they are quite short individually so don't be scared)). Although easier to access and understand than Dune, the characters, writing style are extremely charismatic.
There used to be an amazingly knowledgeable Dune aficionado on the IMDB boards, but since they disabled it all his wisdom has been lost
Also, on the Tolkein vs Herbert debate, I find Tolkein to be a very boring writer. He created an amazing world, but it is serious effort to get through his books. Herbert however keeps me entertained and wanting more from each page.
On April 16 2017 03:28 flowSthead wrote: The first three make up one story. Frank Herbert wrote parts of 2 and 3 before he had finished 1. I tend to think of it like an unbalanced symmetry because he never finished book 7, but 1-3 is the first part, book 4 is the fulcrum, and 5-6 is the second part. Book 4, God Emperor, is the best one for me, and books 5 and 6 are a bit disappointing compared to the first 4, but they add in detail that makes the first 4 feel more full.
I generally recommend the first 4 strongly, and if enjoyed then 5 and 6. But nothing by his son. Supposedly he has Frank Herbert's notes, but from reading enough interviews I know that he also made up a ton of crap for his books that were not in Frank Herberts notes, and a comparison will also show contradictions and points where it becomes very clear his son did not understand the originals. Avoid at all costs.
The books Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson wrote aren't that bad for the most part. They are rather mediocre books, but not nearly as awful as you'd think from listening to Dune fans. Dune fans mostly hate them since they are seen as exploiting and tarnishing Frank Herbert's legacy, but the books' contents themselves are middling.
I wouldn't recommend them, but I don't think they are horrible either.
It's less for me about his writing ability, and more about his putting out "Book 7" and pretending like everything came from his dad's notes. It very clearly did not come from his dad's notes, and he had no business finishing it. I don't care about the prequel series, I just hate how generic he turned the story in his Book 7. He fucked with the story and missed the point.
I agree but we really should try to not make this into a "bash Brian Herbert" thread tbh. There are already enough places where this is done
About the movie: Well it's impossible to include everything, not even a HBO style tv series would be able to do that really. But i have some faith in Denis Villeneuve that he still will make a great movie which includes some important parts as well as it can, that he will give us great scenes and worldbuilding and that it brings DUNE a bit into the spotlight because i think it should be. Ofc it's complex work but i bet quite a lot of people would still enjoy it and they simply don't know about it.
+1 for reading all 6 books. 1-3 have more interesting characters while 4-6 have very interesting ideas in them.
There is a 1984 David Lynch movie that was packed with talent but didn't quite live up to its own expectations. A 2000/2003 set of TV miniseries by the Sci-Fi Channel was also made (Part 1, Part 2). Also of interest is the documentary Jodorowsky's Dune about a very interesting Dune film that was never made.
There have been several Dune computer games, but all are too old to recommend now. However, of note is Dune II from Westwood Studios, which was a pioneering RTS game that popularised the genre. Dune II is to RTS games as Wolfenstein 3D is to FPS games.
The Dune universe feels a lot like a fantasy setting stylistically but never hides its sci-fi elements and big ideas. I think this is a big part of why it is so popular.
As requested. No lengthy Brian Herbert bashing. But I would... Anyways it's been said and to be fair I definitely qualify as a hardcore dune fan. (Besides my username and gaming tags, my dogs name is Leto and My fishing vessel is also Atreides) My general advice is that literally anyone should try reading 1. If you really like it read 2-3. At this point most people could stop. If you are really into it though and can make it through 4 then 5 and 6 are my favorites after 1 personally.
I've had people try skipping 4 to read 5&6 and they didn't follow too well. I think that's a bad idea.
I don't mind the old movies for what they are tbh.
I've recently been reading a collection of all frank Herbert's short stories. It's pretty funny/interesting.
There's an upcoming dune reboot! I loved the dune series, well I loved the first 3 books then it got weird(er) but I still liked it.When I set out to lead humankind along my Golden Path, I promised them a lesson their bones would remember
I read the first one and it was great. I read the second one and found it long-winded, winding and mostly uninteresting. I never finished the 3rd book. Should I give them another go?
On April 25 2017 20:05 Acrofales wrote: I read the first one and it was great. I read the second one and found it long-winded, winding and mostly uninteresting. I never finished the 3rd book. Should I give them another go?
I mean i would say yes. Something time changes the perspective on things right? Though typically when i read a comment like yours it's because the first books is 100% the most easy to get into. The other books change styles and that's what people often don't like. Personally i think it is totally worth it though, it's not an "easy page turner" read though, i think DUNE requires someone to focus on it and its themes to get the most out of it. But sure i would say try it again
Just want to say that Dune is awesome. The scifi channel mini series was awesome. And that the new stuff and the butlerian jihad stuff was wack but that House Atreides, House Harkonnen, and House Corrino were all good.
So I've read Dune and I wasn't a massive fan of it, but I would recommend watching Jodorowsky's Dune which is a documentary about a planned adaptation of Dune that never happened. Super interesting.
On April 26 2017 14:02 Corrik wrote: Just want to say that Dune is awesome. The scifi channel mini series was awesome. And that the new stuff and the butlerian jihad stuff was wack but that House Atreides, House Harkonnen, and House Corrino were all good.
Especially Atreides and Harkonen.
Of the Bryan Herbert books, the immediate prequel books (House Atreides, et al.) are good and worth reading. They aren't Frank Herbert quality, but they are good enough. The Butlerian Jihad books are interesting from a lore perspective, but ultimately forgettable. Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune are abominations. All copies should be thrown into a fire so that we can forever forget that they existed.
Book 1: Great book, recommend to anyone. If you like it, keep reading.
Books 2+3: I have no memory of what happened in these books except for the last scene of book 3. Definitely the low point of the series in my opinion, and if you gave up on them I couldn't blame you. As far as I can tell (again, based on no actually memory) they just provide room for the aftermath of book 1 to play out. BUT if you can find the strength to get through them, it's worth it. Because they set up ...
Book 4: (╯°□°)╯︵┻━┻ This book is really good and really weird. In a vacuum it's probably not as good as book 1, but because it draws on hundreds of pages of world building, it can be awesome in a way that the first book couldn't. You can tell that this was supposed to be the middle book of the series - everything else revolves around it.
Books 5+6: Also good and weird and awesome. If you made it this far I have no doubt you will enjoy them quite a bit. Prepare to be unhappy at the end when book 7 doesn't exist and never will.
Fan of the Dune series since a kid...Watched the Sci-Fi Channel series w/ my Father.. was a Mini series if I recall. Revisited it later as well.
I played the Dune PC game as a kid, age 3-4. Was a little too intense for me though to be able to win.
Why hasn't anyone mentioned that Dune II was one of the first, if not first RTS ever, and predecessor to BW, SC2, Warcraft etc!
My first RTS ^_^
Gonna go look for my Dune novel at my house next time I'm there, I would really like to re-read it sometime soon. Has anyone seen how much original hardcover of Dune is selling for!? I saw $13,000 to $15,000 so far.
that was an autographed 1st edition that sold for that much, I think that was the highest selling book in a year a few years ago. regular ones wouldnt be worth that much
On April 26 2017 14:02 Corrik wrote: Just want to say that Dune is awesome. The scifi channel mini series was awesome. And that the new stuff and the butlerian jihad stuff was wack but that House Atreides, House Harkonnen, and House Corrino were all good.
Especially Atreides and Harkonen.
Of the Bryan Herbert books, the immediate prequel books (House Atreides, et al.) are good and worth reading. They aren't Frank Herbert quality, but they are good enough. The Butlerian Jihad books are interesting from a lore perspective, but ultimately forgettable. Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune are abominations. All copies should be thrown into a fire so that we can forever forget that they existed.
The only real spot that I felt was weird in the original Prequel Trilogy was that it almost seemed to drop a storyline that they appeared to be prepping hard. I had much more appreciation for Duncan Idaho due to that trilogy.
I like Chapterhouse also.
As far as the newest books, they kind of wrote them from Frank's notes. Thus, it is kind of unfair to bash them too much on the direction it went.
What is the point of making a Dune movie in the universe the an ultimate one already exists? I think people who don't appreciate the marvel of it just aren't Twin Peaks fans and thus can't be properly entertained by two hours of Kyle McLachlan pretending to be the saviour of the universe instead of a total nutjob. If someone wants to make a better Dune movie, the only way is to force Lynch to make a director's cut.
I really liked the Dune books, but then I never finished the 6th one. I got somehow distracted and then never got back to reading it again. Throughout the series, you can see the trend of it slowly devolving into an extensive rant of flowing ideas and opinions and this really materializes in the 6th book and that's probably what has put me off and also what makes it so difficult to pick up again if you stop reading for a couple of days. It also starts getting really repetitive with some aspects.
The world building is really what makes the series, obviously. Here I must say that I simply disagree with some of Herbert's ideas of how the world is gonna develop, but it doesn't matter, it's consistent and relatively deep. To my taste, the world is a little "overbuilt", a lot of stuff is getting repeated many times so that the reader doesn't forget how things work and that's pretty annoying, if you are reading the books in quick succession.
Dune is also one of the few books that have actually made my life better, because traveling in deserts is so much more fun when you can make Dune references day and night. The best place for a Dune fan is Yazd in Iran, where every house has a windtrap on the roof - to be fair, those aren't for moisture, but the wind for air conditioning using water brought to the house underground using a thing actually called a qanat. Not to mention that a lot of deserts actually have batigh melons growing on sand.
I kinda stopped with my reread (book one is done) but i will soon keep going. So i am not sure about your criticism atm, but i think it's fair enough Though i have to disagree with the Lynch movie, it wasn't that great imo The style itself simply didn't work there, i say that as a fan of his other work btw :D
Also thanks for the interesting, little RL addition, i doubt i will ever visit Yazd myself though.
On April 28 2017 12:23 Th1rdEye wrote: Why hasn't anyone mentioned that Dune II was one of the first, if not first RTS ever, and predecessor to BW, SC2, Warcraft etc!
I have book 5 and 6 (Heretics and Chapter House) as my favorites (barely), they have been since I first read the series 20 years ago. I love how it's hinting at the events in the scattering and how different cultures evolve/distort themselves together with technology and ideas. To me, this is where the series become the story of the universe. I also like the ending as it is, without the 7nd book.
So far the cast looks stellar, my expectations are extremely high (which might be dumb, but it is how it is). I hope the PR will do a good job and get people interested, imagine getting a movie series :O
Paul -- Timothee Chalamet Gurney -- Josh Brolin Duncan -- Jason Momoa Duke Leto -- Oscar Isaac Stilgar -- Javier Bardem Chani -- Zendaya Baron Harkonnen -- Stellan Skarsgard Rabban -- Dave Bautista Mohiam -- Charlotte Rampling Jessica -- Rebecca Ferguson
Only major guy missing is Feyd.
I'm just glad that Villeneuve has decided to make Dune into two movies. There's just no reasonable way to cram it all into one movie given all of the world building that has to be done. It would be natural enough to split the story + Show Spoiler +
either immediately after the fall of House Atreides or when Paul and Jessica join the Fremen
I wanted to say I read the Machine Crusade by Frank Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson and I got sucked right into it. People often give the advice to only read Frank Herberts Dune but that's a bit like BW fans telling you not to play SC2.
On February 18 2019 01:38 Saechiis wrote: I wanted to say I read the Machine Crusade by Frank Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson and I got sucked right into it. People often give the advice to only read Frank Herberts Dune but that's a bit like BW fans telling you not to play SC2.
While i see where you are coming from i disagree with this statement still, in some cases the gap in quality between two products is simply big enough to notice it regardless of preferences. BW vs Sc2 is an argument about two of the best rts games ever, frank herbert's dune vs brian herbert's dune is the argument of a genius vs a decent, mediocre author. In a vacuum there is nothing wrong with liking brian's books, nothing at all, but they just lack the depth of frank's.
Anyway, as i said before i don't think bashing on brian is a productive thing for this thread, mostly excited about the new movie at this point and hoping for it to be successful and villeneuve's best work to date.
I watched the David Lynch dune before I saw twin peaks. I have to say that I felt my experience of twin peaks was significantly improved by at all times and in every scene thinking of special agent dale cooper as the Kwisatz Haderach.
I believe my nickname says all that I would be able to say about this topic.
I am also curious about this new movie, however I enjoyed the original too.
I also really liked all books, the whole saga (both F. Herbert's originals, and the ones written by his son and K. J. Anderson). Then again, I am both easily entertained, and a completionist: whenever I immerse myself in a universe, I would want to know the whole canon saga, to build it in my head, think about how it would work and debate with myself the possible inconsistencies, what would make most sense . I really like that kind of mental gymnastics.
Great cast, great people working on it but i really don't like Hans Zimmer doing the score. That might be a surprise to some people, but man his scores are always so similar and never feel actually iconic, at least not to me. Oh well, we'll see what it will sound like, not the biggest fan though.
Dune was a fun read Dune Messiah... not as good as Dune About 1/4 of the way through Children of Dune... not as good as Dune so far, better than Dune Messiah Really looking forward to God Emperor of Dune
Herbert throws a lot of names (of organizations and skills and such) and pseudophilosophy at you that drags down the pacing sometimes and make things a bit of a slog but his characters are vivid and distinct so far
The whole "protagonists (and many of the antagonists as well) are literally superhumans who know everything and can do everything so exposition and dialogue are usually people saying vague things in an arrogant tone like it's all supposed to be clear as day and tension doesn't really exist" kind of annoys me, it annoyed me in the sequels to Ender's Game as well when Ender would be a real asshole to almost everybody and sooner or later they'd break down and cry and acknowledge Ender's superior intellect and morality that just rekt everything they ever believed in. That's the vibe I get from so many characters in the Dune series... the Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilaxu, Jessica, Paul, Alia, Duncan Idaho ghola, Scytale, Bijaz etc... any character that actually moves the plot along is portrayed as an ubermensch in his or her interactions with the secondary characters and that gets kinda boring. The only real conflict (drama) is the internal conflict (drama) of these ubermensch characters being uncomfortable with being ubermenschen
The Spacer's Guild being simultaneously powerful yet apparently run by idiotic fish-men made me chuckle tho
Overall what I've read so far (first 2 books, 1/4 of 3rd book) I'd give a cumulative 7.5/10
Dune 8.5/10 Dune Messiah 7/10 First 1/4 of Children of Dune 7.5/10
On March 19 2019 03:03 DeepElemBlues wrote: Reading through the series for the first time
Dune was a fun read Dune Messiah... not as good as Dune About 1/4 of the way through Children of Dune... not as good as Dune so far, better than Dune Messiah Really looking forward to God Emperor of Dune
Herbert throws a lot of names (of organizations and skills and such) and pseudophilosophy at you that drags down the pacing sometimes and make things a bit of a slog but his characters are vivid and distinct so far
The whole "protagonists (and many of the antagonists as well) are literally superhumans who know everything and can do everything so exposition and dialogue are usually people saying vague things in an arrogant tone like it's all supposed to be clear as day and tension doesn't really exist" kind of annoys me, it annoyed me in the sequels to Ender's Game as well when Ender would be a real asshole to almost everybody and sooner or later they'd break down and cry and acknowledge Ender's superior intellect and morality that just rekt everything they ever believed in. That's the vibe I get from so many characters in the Dune series... the Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilaxu, Jessica, Paul, Alia, Duncan Idaho ghola, Scytale, Bijaz etc... any character that actually moves the plot along is portrayed as an ubermensch in his or her interactions with the secondary characters and that gets kinda boring. The only real conflict (drama) is the internal conflict (drama) of these ubermensch characters being uncomfortable with being ubermenschen
The Spacer's Guild being simultaneously powerful yet apparently run by idiotic fish-men made me chuckle tho
Overall what I've read so far (first 2 books, 1/4 of 3rd book) I'd give a cumulative 7.5/10
Dune 8.5/10 Dune Messiah 7/10 First 1/4 of Children of Dune 7.5/10
It is interesting that you mention the characters being vivid and distinct and then go on and say that there is nothing else than them being uncomfortable with being an ubermensch. For starters i would say that the character work is the weakest part of dune, they are superior human beings which is also kinda the point, herbert wants to paint a picture where humans had to evolve themselves and not just use better and better tools. I still think there is some drama because these future humans are in conflict with each other, so it is an even playing field again. Where Dune imo shines is the thematic depth, you call it pseudo philosophy but imo that doesn't do it justice, herbert was no philosopher so it's not a work of philosophy, but he researched a lot of different branches and included them into his world, i never felt it slogged because of it (beware though, book 4 is the worst offender in that case )
For me personally it is book 1>4>3=5=6>2 , the first book is just the most well rounded work in the series and absolutely deserves the status of a classic it has in the scifi realm.
Since this thread keeps coming up, people should consider listening to the Imaginary Worlds episode on Dune(and any other sci-fi or fantasy series the podcast dives into). One of the interesting parts of Dune is how it borrows so much from the religion of Islam and how that gave the book unique underpinnings. It isn't explained why words like jihad are used in the world of Dune, leave the reader to speculate why words directly connected to a specific real world religion exist in this far future novel. I really like the podcasts treatment of books like Dune because it tries to provide the context surrounding books and ground them in the time they were written. Its episode on the Conan is equally good.
On March 19 2019 03:03 DeepElemBlues wrote: Reading through the series for the first time
Dune was a fun read Dune Messiah... not as good as Dune About 1/4 of the way through Children of Dune... not as good as Dune so far, better than Dune Messiah Really looking forward to God Emperor of Dune
Herbert throws a lot of names (of organizations and skills and such) and pseudophilosophy at you that drags down the pacing sometimes and make things a bit of a slog but his characters are vivid and distinct so far
The whole "protagonists (and many of the antagonists as well) are literally superhumans who know everything and can do everything so exposition and dialogue are usually people saying vague things in an arrogant tone like it's all supposed to be clear as day and tension doesn't really exist" kind of annoys me, it annoyed me in the sequels to Ender's Game as well when Ender would be a real asshole to almost everybody and sooner or later they'd break down and cry and acknowledge Ender's superior intellect and morality that just rekt everything they ever believed in. That's the vibe I get from so many characters in the Dune series... the Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilaxu, Jessica, Paul, Alia, Duncan Idaho ghola, Scytale, Bijaz etc... any character that actually moves the plot along is portrayed as an ubermensch in his or her interactions with the secondary characters and that gets kinda boring. The only real conflict (drama) is the internal conflict (drama) of these ubermensch characters being uncomfortable with being ubermenschen
The Spacer's Guild being simultaneously powerful yet apparently run by idiotic fish-men made me chuckle tho
Overall what I've read so far (first 2 books, 1/4 of 3rd book) I'd give a cumulative 7.5/10
Dune 8.5/10 Dune Messiah 7/10 First 1/4 of Children of Dune 7.5/10
It is interesting that you mention the characters being vivid and distinct and then go on and say that there is nothing else than them being uncomfortable with being an ubermensch. For starters i would say that the character work is the weakest part of dune, they are superior human beings which is also kinda the point, herbert wants to paint a picture where humans had to evolve themselves and not just use better and better tools. I still think there is some drama because these future humans are in conflict with each other, so it is an even playing field again. Where Dune imo shines is the thematic depth, you call it pseudo philosophy but imo that doesn't do it justice, herbert was no philosopher so it's not a work of philosophy, but he researched a lot of different branches and included them into his world, i never felt it slogged because of it (beware though, book 4 is the worst offender in that case )
For me personally it is book 1>4>3=5=6>2 , the first book is just the most well rounded work in the series and absolutely deserves the status of a classic it has in the scifi realm.
the characters themselves are vivid and distinct but the drama they have to deal with is not
i don't think dune's thematic depth comes from the dialogue, i think it comes from the setting. herbert's description of arrakis and the fremen and the atreides and the harkonnens etc in dune provides lots of thematic depth
then the characters start talking and this clear picture is wrapped up in vaguely worded arguments that read more like i'm so clever contests than serious drama. not so much in dune but got done with children of dune last night and now starting god emperor of dune and if i never read another conversation again where the protagonist is shaken to his or her core because of some vague incoherent word games an antagonist or other protagonist played in their conversation i'll be pleased