|
On April 15 2014 01:40 Sn0_Man wrote:
People who think that "its easy to stall for 37 mins" don't understand that
A) Empire have no desire to lose at 38 minutes, to them its more or less the same. They refused to throw a different game to get easier opponents in Starladder and there's no reason for them to aim to lose this game at a certain point.
B) If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST. You have to try to win and so you pick a lineup you believe will make that possible, ignoring the timing.
OFC, this means that timeranking is shit but we already knew that.
lol wtf are you talking about? this post makes no sense
|
On April 15 2014 01:48 Hagen0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:47 dasdasd wrote:On April 15 2014 01:41 Lachrymose wrote:On April 15 2014 01:33 Hagen0 wrote:On April 15 2014 01:31 dasdasd wrote:
wow empire is a complete joke. i mean losing to alliance is no shame but losing a game in 22 minutes where u knew from the start that u only had to somehow keep your throne alive for 37 minutes makes them seem borderline retarded. i mean the draft itself was decent for what should hav been their gameplan, maybe replace lycan with something stronger at highground defense but their play was just disgustingly bad. waiting in front of a tier 1 away from your creepwave for the 100% predictable luna eclipse relocate is just emberassing.
TL;DR empire is an overrated team that started of strong when patch was, new similar to their streak of dominance in 2013, which is not fit to even lick the (bull)dogshit of alliances boots when it comes down to the wire in a meta where teams have adapted to the newest patch And now it swings the other way. o0 It's really simple, let me explain the western Dota tier list: Navi is good. The current best team is good. Unless they play boring or lame. Or lose to Navi. Or beat Navi. Then they're terrible. Everybody else is terrible. now that is just plain stupid. Navi is amazing at lan finals almost every single time. alliance looks stable 90% of the time and when theyre allegedly slumping its only in comparison to their Ti3 and pre ti 3 performance. cloud 9 is unstable but plays brilliant at times. eg is strong. empire has strong phases which are all strangely enough always after a new patch and then fade rather quickly as teams adapt. so all in all Na'vi and alliance are the top dogs without question. then come eg and cloud 9 with cloud 9 looking incredibly shaky atz times and EG not having had enough showings against the other top western teams to really be evaluated. then comes a huge gap followed by empire another small gap and then the rest of the western competition he was joking
oh. i suffer from autism so its hard for me to tell
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 15 2014 01:39 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:37 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 15 2014 01:36 FakeDeath wrote:
Honestly though stalling a game for 37 mins is not hard.
Empire could have drafted a lineup to do that.
But they all played so awful.
This probably means Empire won't have any chance in TI.
They cracked easily under pressure.
37 minutes is long game, i have no fucking idea how can you stall game for 37 minutes doing nothing, if you don't have Tinker, KotL and other guys. It's not 20 minutes game, 37 is very long period of time. I disagree. Without looking at statistics I'm guessing most games end at like 30-40 minutes. And that's when teams GG out early, when they're not trying to stall.
Ye, but thing is that Alliance wasn't forced to rush, like, for example Gambit did in IEM Katowice in LoL tournament last year where they had to win in 26 minutes against MYM-LoL to come from groupstages, they won with 23 minutes and proceeded to win tournament next day.
37 minutes is absolutely standard game, i don't remember actually, but wasn't the same Alliance forced to win against Fnatic in less than 27-28 minutes at Dreamhack Summer last year?
|
United States15275 Posts
It doesn't matter if you pick anti-push heroes if they get crushed in the lanes. Why should Empire have drafted a cheesy predictable lineup like that if they were confident they could win with a standard draft? And did we forget that Empire did exactly that in D2CL?
|
idk about you people but one win means nothing even when they dominated that game.
|
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On April 15 2014 01:50 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:39 teapoted wrote:On April 15 2014 01:37 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 15 2014 01:36 FakeDeath wrote:
Honestly though stalling a game for 37 mins is not hard.
Empire could have drafted a lineup to do that.
But they all played so awful.
This probably means Empire won't have any chance in TI.
They cracked easily under pressure.
37 minutes is long game, i have no fucking idea how can you stall game for 37 minutes doing nothing, if you don't have Tinker, KotL and other guys. It's not 20 minutes game, 37 is very long period of time. I disagree. Without looking at statistics I'm guessing most games end at like 30-40 minutes. And that's when teams GG out early, when they're not trying to stall. Ye, but thing is that Alliance wasn't forced to rush, like, for example Gambit did in Katowice in LoL tournament where they had to win in 26 minutes against MYM-LoL to come from groupstages, they won with 23 minutes and proceeded to win tournament next day. 37 minutes is absolutely standard game, i don't remember actually, but wasn't the same Alliance forced to win against Fnatic in less than 27-28 minutes at Dreamhack Summer last year? Yes Alliance has been in time-rating situations before.
The thing is, this game was like 23 minutes. And Empire got absolutely destroyed. DESTROYED. Alliance went straight from one rax to the throne at 20 minutes. This is not a normal way for a game to end, if you're rushing or not. The ability to do that is only if you're massively ahead.
If Empire was only slightly less ahead, they would have been able to defend their high-ground for some time, Alliance would have had to go for a second rax. If they lose a single fight, that game has already stalled an extra 15 minutes.
I don't think it's difficult to stall a game until 35+ minutes with any line-up unless you're 'that' far behind. And Empire didn't have a good line-up for stalling, but just slightly better play, and they would have done it.
I don't think the answer is to 'draft stalling heroes' either. They just had to play better.
|
On April 15 2014 01:52 goody153 wrote:
idk about you people but one win means nothing even when they dominated that game.
What do you mean? The one win means they go to China, so yeah, it does mean something.
|
On April 15 2014 01:49 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:40 Sn0_Man wrote:
People who think that "its easy to stall for 37 mins" don't understand that
A) Empire have no desire to lose at 38 minutes, to them its more or less the same. They refused to throw a different game to get easier opponents in Starladder and there's no reason for them to aim to lose this game at a certain point.
B) If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST. You have to try to win and so you pick a lineup you believe will make that possible, ignoring the timing.
OFC, this means that timeranking is shit but we already knew that. lol wtf are you talking about? this post makes no sense
He just meant that Empire did not play/draft with the time in mind. They just tried to play their usual standard game.
|
On April 15 2014 01:49 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:40 Sn0_Man wrote:
People who think that "its easy to stall for 37 mins" don't understand that
A) Empire have no desire to lose at 38 minutes, to them its more or less the same. They refused to throw a different game to get easier opponents in Starladder and there's no reason for them to aim to lose this game at a certain point.
B) If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST. You have to try to win and so you pick a lineup you believe will make that possible, ignoring the timing.
OFC, this means that timeranking is shit but we already knew that. lol wtf are you talking about? this post makes no sense
Hmm, one person has posted a direct "I agree" (with me) and another has said exactly the same thing as me. As for you, I recommend using intelligent points instead of unthinking stupidity when trying to argue, even on Internet forums. TL tries not to cater to the lowest common denominator, I'm sure you can do better than this.
|
This wins means who get to go to WPC Ace playoff.
Empire really disappointed me.
Their draft was decent.
Had they played it out normally, they maybe could have won.
But they played so terrible and giving multiple team wipes in just a course of 5 mins or so.
Old
|
On April 15 2014 01:54 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:52 goody153 wrote:
idk about you people but one win means nothing even when they dominated that game.
What do you mean? The one win means they go to China, so yeah, it does mean something.
yeah sure
but everybody is talking about skill level of a team.
|
|
|
On April 15 2014 01:55 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:49 hariooo wrote:On April 15 2014 01:40 Sn0_Man wrote:
People who think that "its easy to stall for 37 mins" don't understand that
A) Empire have no desire to lose at 38 minutes, to them its more or less the same. They refused to throw a different game to get easier opponents in Starladder and there's no reason for them to aim to lose this game at a certain point.
B) If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST. You have to try to win and so you pick a lineup you believe will make that possible, ignoring the timing.
OFC, this means that timeranking is shit but we already knew that. lol wtf are you talking about? this post makes no sense Hmm, one person has posted a direct "I agree" (with me) and another has said exactly the same thing as me. As for you, I recommend using intelligent points instead of unthinking stupidity when trying to argue, even on Internet forums. TL tries not to cater to the lowest common denominator, I'm sure you can do better than this.
to be honest your post is unbelievably stupid. "If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST". NO, if u pick a stall line up and try to stall u will do exactly that: stall. this means that u extend the game thus making it last LONGER, so u WONT lose FAST. i hope i got my point across
|
On April 15 2014 02:02 dasdasd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 01:55 Sn0_Man wrote:On April 15 2014 01:49 hariooo wrote:On April 15 2014 01:40 Sn0_Man wrote:
People who think that "its easy to stall for 37 mins" don't understand that
A) Empire have no desire to lose at 38 minutes, to them its more or less the same. They refused to throw a different game to get easier opponents in Starladder and there's no reason for them to aim to lose this game at a certain point.
B) If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST. You have to try to win and so you pick a lineup you believe will make that possible, ignoring the timing.
OFC, this means that timeranking is shit but we already knew that. lol wtf are you talking about? this post makes no sense Hmm, one person has posted a direct "I agree" (with me) and another has said exactly the same thing as me. As for you, I recommend using intelligent points instead of unthinking stupidity when trying to argue, even on Internet forums. TL tries not to cater to the lowest common denominator, I'm sure you can do better than this. to be honest your post is unbelievably stupid. "If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST". NO, if u pick a stall line up and try to stall u will do exactly that: stall. this means that u extend the game thus making it last LONGER, so u WONT lose FAST. i hope i got my point across
I think he was pointing out that empire was giving their best and are not playing the stall gameplay.
Which everybody was pointing out that all empire had to do was stall and they failed to do so due to the draft.
|
Teams have consistently shown across a wide variety of sports that if you don't play TO WIN then you lose much much faster than by simply playing to win. Playing to last X amount of time never works out, because nobody performs their best if they aren't playing to win. Teams make the wrong decisions because "well we don't need that kill we just need to stay alive" when the winning move was going for the kill. ETC. Teams haven't practiced "just don't lose for 38 mins then lose".
Besides which, Empire have no incentive to play to stall. They want to win. Losing fast doesn't hurt them much, all it does is let alliance through over sigma.
|
I feel it is understandable from Empire not to totally change their style of picks. If you don't generally play turtle lineups, or specifically utilize the heroes required for whatever strategy you want to run, isn't there a danger that you totally screw up the early game and end up not being able to turtle for 37mins? If you are confident in your standard play, you will pick to win the game, not to avoid losing fast.
|
On April 15 2014 01:44 Unleashing wrote:
Time-ratings are shit, tournaments should design their tournament to prevent it(ties) from happening. The fact that we almost had a 5-way tie just shows how crazily poorly designed this was imho.
Or have some good solution incase it does happen, not fucking time-rating.
Congratulations to alliance but whatever.
I agree. It hurts certain teams more than others. Still, Alliance crushed Empire and deserves to go to China.
|
If i was Empire, i would have go for a fast push line up (Pugna, DP, DK, etc...), just try to get as many towers as you can to get enough money to build up a decent mid-game and the lack of towers means lack of vision that end up making the enemy team playing more slowly, and then just try to stale (or win if that gold difference was enough)
But at the end, if you get crush this bad on lanes, it doesnt even matter what you do
|
Hmmm, now I was under the impression that Empire advanced here too which doesn't seem to be the case.
In which case my arguments are at least in part invalid although I maintain that Empire stood a better chance of drafting well and winning than they did drafting "safe" and trying to stall to 38 minutes.
|
On April 15 2014 02:04 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 02:02 dasdasd wrote:On April 15 2014 01:55 Sn0_Man wrote:On April 15 2014 01:49 hariooo wrote:On April 15 2014 01:40 Sn0_Man wrote:
People who think that "its easy to stall for 37 mins" don't understand that
A) Empire have no desire to lose at 38 minutes, to them its more or less the same. They refused to throw a different game to get easier opponents in Starladder and there's no reason for them to aim to lose this game at a certain point.
B) If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST. You have to try to win and so you pick a lineup you believe will make that possible, ignoring the timing.
OFC, this means that timeranking is shit but we already knew that. lol wtf are you talking about? this post makes no sense Hmm, one person has posted a direct "I agree" (with me) and another has said exactly the same thing as me. As for you, I recommend using intelligent points instead of unthinking stupidity when trying to argue, even on Internet forums. TL tries not to cater to the lowest common denominator, I'm sure you can do better than this. to be honest your post is unbelievably stupid. "If you just pick a stall lineup and try to stall you will lose, FAST". NO, if u pick a stall line up and try to stall u will do exactly that: stall. this means that u extend the game thus making it last LONGER, so u WONT lose FAST. i hope i got my point across I think he was pointing out that empire was giving their best and are not playing the stall gameplay. Which everybody was pointing out that all empire had to do was stall and they failed to do so due to the draft.
well the part of his post that i was responding to is still complete nonsense
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
