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On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item.
Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it.
Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded.
If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown.
Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof.
Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen.
Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path.
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On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path.
I am pretty sure that Diffusal is best orb most of the time on your hero just because it is the only orb that works with Illusions and later in the game when you have ton of agi and attack speed from it, enemy Strength heroes are losing quite a bit of Mana when you use your ulti, not even mentioning if you have refresher.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 01 2014 23:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path. I am pretty sure that Diffusal is best orb most of the time on your hero just because it is the only orb that works with Illusions and later in the game when you have ton of agi and attack speed from it, enemy Strength heroes are losing quite a bit of Mana when you use your ulti, not even mentioning if you have refresher.
Except that you can easily keep feedback on illusions with skadi on main hero.
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On July 01 2014 23:36 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 23:27 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path. I am pretty sure that Diffusal is best orb most of the time on your hero just because it is the only orb that works with Illusions and later in the game when you have ton of agi and attack speed from it, enemy Strength heroes are losing quite a bit of Mana when you use your ulti, not even mentioning if you have refresher. Except that you can easily keep feedback on illusions with skadi on main hero.
Well I've never tested that in DotA 2 so how does that work? Does Skadi always overrides Diffusal or does it depend on the position in your inventory like in DotA 1?
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On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path.
...Skadi is not the best orb on your hero and Spectre doesn't have mana problems late game, particularly once you have manta and diffusal. You are talking like 1k mana with a spell that cost 160. Your dagger goes through BKB, meaning you are slowing enemy by 18 and increasing your speed by 18, creating a differential of 36%. About the same as skadi. Also if they don't have a BKB, you can use a diffusal blade charge and shit all over them. So Skadi is nowhere near as good as the diffusal on your hero. You suggested getting both, why would you get two orb effects only so your illusions get one? It's a waste of an item slot that can be better spent.
As for satanic, you're wrong. It usually works really well in conjuction with BKB carries, because you get low, BKB and satanic then fully regen through uninterrupted lifesteal. You don't want to get a BKB on spectre, so when you pop your satanic you could either get kited because you are melee or stun locked, because you have no bkb. It's dumb.
But seriously, what the fuck do you have against the heart? You are suggesting every possible alternative tanky item selection apart from the quintessential tanky item in dota 2, which is core on her for a very good reason.
But sorry, I was wrong about the splash damage and satanic.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 02 2014 05:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 21:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 13:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 08:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 07:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On July 01 2014 06:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 05:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:32 Ramiz1989 wrote:On July 01 2014 03:24 Varth wrote:
Well I got a 18min radiance and then a 25min rfo and actually lost.... Being against a healer team on top of having terrible teammates makes it hard. Witch Doctor + jug ward makes it so the dmg from haunt is fairly mitigated without a non idiot ranged killing the ward, I ended up being the person who killed the ward in all but 1 fight.
This is what I was talking about on the last page, sometimes it can work, but if they start to push with Healers/Mek, you are feeling really useless. In that situation Heart/Manta/Diffusal would probably work a lot better. On July 01 2014 03:25 Sn0_Man wrote:
Imagine if u bought something good instead of a refresher I guess?
To clarify, I'm really not a refresher believer. MAYBE as a 5/6th slot. Even then it's mostly so that you can haunt into a fight, bb + refresh and haunt in again. It work wonders as 3rd/4th item, it really does. Except if they are having a ton of AoE healing and are quite tanky, then it should be avoided, but if it is normal game you can alone get 3-4 kills with double ulti even without your opponents. Let's be honest, if enemy proceeds to 5 man down town and your team mates are not helping, there is no difference between refresher and heart. Both end up relatively useless, since unless you are Xin with BoT+2 bfs(same networth), you can't actually 1v5 (Xin can if enemy has 0 lockdown because he is insane kiter and 2 bfs wreck any clumping). In fact, i don't even think heart is that good on her either, since dispersion is not THAT good to worth sacrificing dps on a 2.2 agi gain hero even though it can be situationally decent. Wow really? If you think that there is no difference between Heart and Refresher, you are delusional. You have 1000 HP more, together with Dispersion, that is a lot of tankiness, and that is the damage that your teammates WON'T take... Everything matters, one more spell, one more attack(and to be honest, it will be a lot more than that). And if they are ignoring you because you are too tanky, you will deal a lot of damage because Radiance and Desolate. There certainly are situations where Heart is better than Refresher. You are arguing with the guy who basically suggested skadi/satanic for tankiness on spectre. On June 30 2014 14:00 lolfail9001 wrote:On June 30 2014 13:55 NeoRussia wrote:
dispersion is indeed underrated. I forgot what game it was but there was a batrider and radiance naga with 3 other heroes all ganking this spectre and she killed all of them with dispersion.
What are your guys' opinions on these items: armlet, SnY, skadi, mjollnir? Maybe they got burned down by radiance? In fact, they probably got burned by radiance with certain damage contribution from dispersion. And obviously all of them probably hugged this spec for whatever reason. Armlet? Meh. Sny? Only if you wanted to get vanguard, hence the sange. Skadi? Best tankyness item by far, combine with satanic for literally unkillable effect. Mjollnir? Used to be decent when you used to destroy illusions with reality. You have problems with skadi on spec? Yes, satanic is not first item tier, i am no bone322, but it is fine 5-6th or even 11th item. Could be an alright 6th item I guess. Heart gives you like 200 more HP, and gives you regen which is baller as fuck. The skadi slow is alright I guess, but a diffusal is better to slow an individual target and your haunt benefits from it. Let me point out that you said to combine both Skadi and Satanic. What would your 6 slot with that be out of curiosity? Refresher/radiance/bots/satanic/skadi/manta? Seems horribly inefficient. Satanic is good on ranged carries mostly because they can get insane regen really quickly combined with high right click dps or splash damage. IE: Drow/SF/Sven/DK. Spectre doesn't attack fast, nor does she hit hard, nor does she hit multiple targets. Satanic is retarded. If spectre illusions got skadi slow I might agree, but they don't so unless I'm getting blown up late game I'm going to probably choose an abyssal/MKB/Diffusal as my last item to give higher DPS/lockdown. Let's start with clarifying first important thing: if you go radiance-refresher, there is 0 need in tankyness items, so you would not get a heart either in this case, in fact skadi is not needed here, but can be useful if enemy has insane aoe burst like mass poof. Next, heart vs skadi is a choice between best orb on your actual hero except for satanic, eaglehorn's worth of agility, no ever worrying about mana problems, as in spamming dagger as neccessary, and actual use against bkbs and 335 HP + regen. Next: satanic is absolutely irrelevant to splash damage, the fact that you connect them tells alot. Thing is: even on melee carries with poor own dps, as long as you got few real dps items and have ability to deliver hits satanic >> heart for survivability. You would get satanic as for example 6th slot after manta or bkb,bfly,abyssal, bkb or skadi and bots. Or 13th if you went rad-refresher-diffusal-manta-eblades path. ...Skadi is not the best orb on your hero and Spectre doesn't have mana problems late game, particularly once you have manta and diffusal. You are talking like 1k mana with a spell that cost 160. Your dagger goes through BKB, meaning you are slowing enemy by 18 and increasing your speed by 18, creating a differential of 36%. About the same as skadi. Also if they don't have a BKB, you can use a diffusal blade charge and shit all over them. So Skadi is nowhere near as good as the diffusal on your hero. You suggested getting both, why would you get two orb effects only so your illusions get one? It's a waste of an item slot that can be better spent. As for satanic, you're wrong. It usually works really well in conjuction with BKB carries, because you get low, BKB and satanic then fully regen through uninterrupted lifesteal. You don't want to get a BKB on spectre, so when you pop your satanic you could either get kited because you are melee or stun locked, because you have no bkb. It's dumb. But seriously, what the fuck do you have against the heart? You are suggesting every possible alternative tanky item selection apart from the quintessential tanky item in dota 2, which is core on her for a very good reason. But sorry, I was wrong about the splash damage and satanic.
1k mana with spell that costs 160 and has less than 20 second cd. Active usage of such can easily cut through mana. I won't even mention active usage of manta for farming. Next, once again, illusions only get feedback, but feedback outside of being usable on illusions is meh on most of heroes, even at lvl2 (albeit it does make diffusal a good dps item). Next, slows works best when there is more that a single one and dagger+skadi is a movement swing of up to 317 MS against a swing of 177 on average MS with both spec and target having BoTs (spec has yasha on top, so remove 39/40 MS on desire from both). Next one, if we follow your logic, skadi is a waste of item slot on OD, Meepo and Silencer too (hint, they are not, even though Silencer would not need it by any mean, ODs generally gets shivas for the matter, and Meepo has option of eblade and heart, even though 2 skadis are better stat-wise than heart+eblade, albeit more expensive).
Rule of thumb: there is no carry that should not buy BKB if this carry is actually going to manfight people. Just look at this Navi vs PR game with Xboct delaying his Bkb until it was too late, instead getting bs like vanguard, blademail and stuff.
Heart is not core on anyone, let's start with this. On agi carries i particularly dislike it, since unless you have a way to actually use HP regen, this is rather overpriced 1k of HP, that does not even improve combat efficiency significantly over investing additional Orb of Venom worth of money to get a Skadi, that happens to be even cost-efficient on the matter, even though mana sometimes goes to waste. Well, i happen to not need HP regen of heart in most of my games (and afterbattle regen is usually solved by urn/mek/logical disengage after taking an objective), so that's just me.
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1k mana is 5 daggers and 1 manta, not even taking into consideration mana regeneration. It would take you 80 seconds if you are casting dagger on CD to actually expend 5 of those. I was talking about feedback/purge effect on enemies. It's a 100% slow, and when you pop manta desolate/diffusal hits will rip that person a new asshole.
I don't play OD, but you can't stack the orbs. Skadi could be alright I guess, but that means you have to orb walk. It makes sense on meepo because the gains are amazing on him, and the slow stacks with your geostrike. I don't know why you would get it on silencer. I guess it's never a BAD item, it's just not a great item.
I don't think geting hard CC'd on spectre matters nearly as much as other heroes. Your damage is largely coming from radiance, haunt, and dispersion. CCing you and blowing you up takes time and results in a lot of damage being taken by all parties involved. I'm sure there is situations, but I just don't think there are many where you would feel the need to get a bkb except maybe as a last item in very niche situations, such as against a necrolyte.
But I guess I'm done with this. You just hate heart for no real reason. It's core on plenty of heroes like centaur and AM.
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United States47024 Posts
It's not really core on either of those 2 heroes. Centaur Heart only comes into play if you're insanely fed, and AM Heart vs. BKB is very much game dependent.
BKB Spectre is fine, though it's kind of situational. It's more suitable for a game where you're playing the hero as a damage-dealing core, as opposed to how she's traditionally picked as a frontline core, who only really needs to do enough damage to be a threat, while a backline secondary core like Invoker or high-damage supports like Lina or AA bring the real killing power.
lolfail9001 you're really underselling Heart here, but it's understandable given that your understanding of the hero is as a backline core that uses Refresher+Radi+Diffu as a high-damage source. As a frontline core, Heart has value in that it gives Spec the most rounded possible combat ability at 2 items with Heart+Radi.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
I just don't understand why you would treat a hero with an ability like Dispersion as a backline core.
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because he doesn't respect the damage that dispersion does.
and yeah sorry, I had to write that quick and just shouted the first two heroes that came to mind. But for centaur you get like blink/pipe then either a shivas or the heart situation depending. In a 35 minute game I think it's a pretty reasonable progression for a core. As an aside, I don't play centaur at all though. I could be underselling what other items he might need. But yeah, heart or BKB on AM, but one of them is without a doubt core. Spectre/PL would probably count too, and I guess naga carry assuming you don't need the linkens.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
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On average per game, it does barely less than your right clicks. I don't get how that proves your point. It's still significant damage and in a single fight with a heart you are talking probably 300-600 damage to each hero depending on their distance if they target you. I imagine in the pro stats you listed, there is less targeting of a spectre with a heart.
But that's it my last bit on this. We are running in circles because you like going against the grain without a great reason, and I'm not going to waste my time convincing you otherwise.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 03 2014 03:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On average per game, it does barely less than your right clicks. I don't get how that proves your point. It's still significant damage and in a single fight with a heart you are talking probably 300-600 damage to each hero depending on their distance if they target you. I imagine in the pro stats you listed, there is less targeting of a spectre with a heart.
But that's it my last bit on this. We are running in circles because you like going against the grain without a great reason, and I'm not going to waste my time convincing you otherwise.
Well, to each their own. I'll just note that this thing about spectre being sort of ignorable is the greatest reason for my dislike to heart, it does not add anything except making you harder to kill while not giving a reason to target spectre on it's own, and radiance does not always do the job.
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dispersion shouldn't be underrated.
Dispersion is pure damage, which is amazing. Lv 4 Dispersion gives her about 30% more ehp, so a 2500 life spectre is going to dish out around 500+ pure damage if she is focused to 0 or close to. Combined with radiance burn, and disregarding right clicks, thats easily upwards of 1k aoe damage with the illusions doing whatever they do.
Spec is actually really mobile as well with dagger (and probably some supports who like keeping spectre alive), so its not out of the ordinary to soak 2k damage, dagger out, and regen with heart to come back and clean up. not to mention someone on your team probably has a mek or healing skill to add to the mix.
But seriously, in any situation, pure damage is ridiculously good. if the game calls for it, heart is a great item on spectre, even just for the fact that it basically gives her 30% more on top of what heart already gives.
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a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
late game: i have done 5 realities for a rampage.
etc...
i think rad/refresher is the way to go unless enemy have like am+weaver or 2 rly strong cores than dont want to teamfight and split push all day.
ive tried skadi/satanic found it lackluster
hearts ok but get it only if u actually need it
manta/diffusal/basher are the items that allow u to fight other carries
vanguard is ok
i prefer treads over phase, but i get phase in games i think it wud be better
again, just get good at realitying, u dont want to pay 135 for tp scroll back to safelane at lvl 6.
also i almost nvr get a value point in dispersion. fuck that.
4-4-0 usually, if i think i need extra help in lane i get stats over dispersion...
sometimes i max dagger first other times i max desolate... depends on how the i feel the game will flow
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On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
late game: i have done 5 realities for a rampage.
etc...
i think rad/refresher is the way to go unless enemy have like am+weaver or 2 rly strong cores than dont want to teamfight and split push all day.
ive tried skadi/satanic found it lackluster
hearts ok but get it only if u actually need it
manta/diffusal/basher are the items that allow u to fight other carries
vanguard is ok
i prefer treads over phase, but i get phase in games i think it wud be better
again, just get good at realitying, u dont want to pay 135 for tp scroll back to safelane at lvl 6.
also i almost nvr get a value point in dispersion. fuck that.
4-4-0 usually, if i think i need extra help in lane i get stats over dispersion...
sometimes i max dagger first other times i max desolate... depends on how the i feel the game will flow
On that note I think I'm going to see my way out for a bit....
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
Welp, i am actually not certain how you can possibly do that unless you haunt when the gank target is almost dead already.
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On July 03 2014 06:05 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2014 04:54 ChunderBoy wrote:
a lot of this hero is about being good at realitying.
early game: gank another lane with ulti, reality back to ur own lane!
Welp, i am actually not certain how you can possibly do that unless you haunt when the gank target is almost dead already.
good ganks dont last more than 5 seconds.
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I've been following this discussion a bit and I'm wondering: so all in all, what are the tradeoffs between heart and skadi?
It appears that skadi would be really good because you get almost the same amount of hp as heart, your illusions get stats too, and you get a slow too right? The extra armor also helps tankiness. The only tradeoffs would be the lack of sustain by regening out of battle which you'd get with heart, and you'd also lose the diffusal orb unless you like drop the skadi, then pick up the diffusal then pick up the skadi(?)
But a LOT of people say that heart is generally superior or otherwise extremely good. Is the sustain that much more important/the bonus amount of hp on you and the illusions? What makes heart so much better--does the extra damage dispersed make up for everything else?
Also apparently diffusal isn't that great an item on him?
It's definitely situational right, so I was just wondering about builds/situationals/pros and cons etc.I love spectre so I def wanna learn more about how to play him well ^^
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EPT
