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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
On September 29 2014 08:56 Skyro wrote: Sometimes it's a good Vanguard game, while in some other times it's a good Bracer(Drums optional)+Urn game.Why are people still buying RoH when Urn is soooooooo good on Spectre? | ||
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Atreides
United States2393 Posts
How often/important is oov? | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
RoH is mainly for refresher build. But generally urn is just better because of how active spectre can participate in fights. Either way, you go for radiance next. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
If you're behind and you get a diffusal blade you're still behind and still weak. Diffusal spectre only does anything if the extra damage from it + haunt is pushes past the equilibrium and forces them to flee; unless they take really bad fights you are really going to overwhelm them if you are already losing so badly you feel forced to get a diffusal. Even Manta rush would do more to salvage those fights since you'll do a lot more dps and farm kinda faster.You're also really weak after 30 mins because you can't farm and do way less damage; you basically lose the godlike lategame carry aspect if you go diffusal and can't snowball off kills. And you know, you suffered through the worst early game there is for that lategame reward, so if you don't get it why are you playing the hero? Diffusal is only going to be better if they are trying to do something overaggressive like prematurely highground you and you have saved up a bit over 3k, and they dive a t2 bit too far and don't expect you to do any damage. If you can win that fight then it pays for itself, but if the game pace slows down or your team feeds stupidly and you give up too much, and you can't connect on any kills, you are irrevocably screwed. In short its much riskier to go for diffusal than saving on radi, cause radi is the ultimate comeback item and always good but diffusal needs very specific circumstances to be better. I've had a game where their offensive trilane got a few initial kills so I sent away my supports and sat 1v3 while we lost elsewhere on the map too; had maybe 8 creeps at 10 mins and 40 at 20 mins, but as soon as Radi got online at 30-33 mins~ the game swung completely. That's probably worse case scenario, and the radi was still better. Vanguard is only good in games where they have high burst and massive but inexpensive pick off threat: i,e, centaur/exort invoker, offlane void+aa, storm, or mid LC+clock/bounty, etc. In those situations if they can't explode you instantly, their strength is lost and you can reach your radiance safely. Burning often went for casual vit booster pre-relic in these kind of situations if he was facing a lot of burst threat and Burning Spectre never dies, so there's good precedent. | ||
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Varth
United States426 Posts
P.S. if you think zeus is an annoying bastard with the bs 40% buff you should see spectre with radiance... its just unfair since you can zip in after the ult and finish off the stragglers, and the 40% applies to dispersion damage AND you get healed from the creeps dying to radiance + dispersion... its just beyond strong | ||
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
I also never go phase boots, I prefer my treads Noone shud ever go drums on this hero | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On October 01 2014 08:16 Varth wrote: I play a fair amount of spectre, and you get the RoH in a game where you are dealing with a fair amount of lane harassment and you are going a radiance RFO build, which is generally incredibly good against any lineup that doesn't have a ton of healing and tanks. P.S. if you think zeus is an annoying bastard with the bs 40% buff you should see spectre with radiance... its just unfair since you can zip in after the ult and finish off the stragglers, and the 40% applies to dispersion damage AND you get healed from the creeps dying to radiance + dispersion... its just beyond strong Does it actually buff the illusion damage? i thought about that, but since it was your illusions with the haunt I didn't think they would get the bonus damage. I also never understood drums on Spectre. I get the idea, it just seems... bad. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On September 30 2014 16:30 Fencar wrote: I have massive problems with radiance because if the entire enemy team comes online before I come online, it's possible for them to basically 5v5 and absolutely wreck my team both before and after I get radiance since I'm just so squishy both before and after, as compared with drums diffusal into manta heart. I think this is partly due to the lack of an escape mechanism on Spectre, as opposed to Weaver (gotta go fast), Antimage, and other hard farming carries, which at least have a bigger chance of escaping a smoke gank than Spectre. That, plus in pubs, it's very possible to get a hard lane ex 2v2 lich/axe vs spectre/rubick (one of the worst case scenarios, but you get the idea), in which case I'd rather get a diffusal and come online earlier though weaker. I think you are better off getting manta instead of diffusal if that is the case because you will have more potential single target DPS (desolate + illusion) along with the stats and movement speed. Only benefit of diffusal is that your haunt will do more damage from mana burn but I suppose it depends on how badly you need the purge early which should generally never be the case. Either way, radiance is always better than any of those situation. True you are squishy but with radiance, you have a great farming item and your farming speed just sky rocket along with your team fight potential when haunt. If you are getting radiance at good time, you shouldn't have those problem at all. Very common for spectre to get radiance and the game turn 180 because of how much of a game changing item radiance can be especially on spectre. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
But, and its a big but, in this patch you're virtually guaranteed to get gold for a Radiance if you want one. So there seems to be fairly little reason to not get it first, since you can always get diffusal as a second item and kill half the other team every haunt for a while. Lets give an example here...last night I was playing a game on Spectre. I was solo in lane with a roaming supporting Riki helping out sometimes; and I was against Spirit Breaker and Mirana. Sounds like a recipe for absolute disaster, right? And sure, I died a couple times but got a couple kills early game to make up for it. And I STILL had the sacred relic at 22-23 minutes and the radiance three or four minutes later. Much as I love diffusal...this patch its quite hard to justify not getting the relic into radiance on Spectre because its really not that hard to build now; and you're not facing such a huge disadvantage for losing towers anymore. Hence you don't really have to be online quite as fast. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 01 2014 15:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Does it actually buff the illusion damage? i thought about that, but since it was your illusions with the haunt I didn't think they would get the bonus damage. I also never understood drums on Spectre. I get the idea, it just seems... bad. yes all spectre illusions benefit from desolate bonus damage | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
Alot of players that opt for a naked radiance will be passive. Because of that your team dies alot more. It's like the battle for AP helms deep, but everyone knows gandalf will break his promise anyway and show up 1 day too late. Its really hard to farm a naked radiance without all 5 teammembers commiting to the radiance spectre. Its the same for a jungler going midas who shows up 40 minutes in, 6 slotted and asks where the fight is at. I think that most games that are won with a late naked radiance come back, would have also be won with an easier first major item. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On October 01 2014 22:55 govie wrote: I think a radiance is good in CM where you can draft around the spectre radiance, where everyone works towards the same goal. But in AP pubs radiance seem alot worse and I dont agree with the arguments about late naked radiances winning games. It feels a bit like people tend to glorify the naked radiance choice that got them in trouble in the first place. Alot of players that opt for a naked radiance will be passive. Because of that your team dies alot more. It's like the battle for AP helms deep, but everyone knows gandalf will break his promise anyway and show up 1 day too late. Its really hard to farm a naked radiance without all 5 teammembers commiting to the radiance spectre. Its the same for a jungler going midas who shows up 40 minutes in, 6 slotted and asks where the fight is at. I think that most games that are won with a late naked radiance come back, would have also be won with an easier first major item. Maxed desolate haunt hurts. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
Ofcourse but I think thats besides the scope of my post, there are games were a naked radiance gets punished or other items would have been better, with or without desolate. | ||
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On October 01 2014 22:55 govie wrote: I think a radiance is good in CM where you can draft around the spectre radiance, where everyone works towards the same goal. But in AP pubs radiance seem alot worse and I dont agree with the arguments about late naked radiances winning games. It feels a bit like people tend to glorify the naked radiance choice that got them in trouble in the first place. Alot of players that opt for a naked radiance will be passive. Because of that your team dies alot more. It's like the battle for AP helms deep, but everyone knows gandalf will break his promise anyway and show up 1 day too late. Its really hard to farm a naked radiance without all 5 teammembers commiting to the radiance spectre. Its the same for a jungler going midas who shows up 40 minutes in, 6 slotted and asks where the fight is at. I think that most games that are won with a late naked radiance come back, would have also be won with an easier first major item. It's like you're asking what to do after you first pick Spectre in pub AP and the opposing team goes aggro tri-lane. The answer is don't first pick Spectre. Pick Spectre when the conditions are right, just like with any hero. And I don't think the general message in the thread is to rush a naked Radiance either, it's more or less that you should always get a Radiance eventually, with the exception being your team is stomping so hard the game will end early. Early item progression for Spectre is really: 1) If needed, cheap laning items (i.e. PMS) 2) If needed, cheap regen item so you are topped off for Haunt and vs. ganks (i.e. Urn, RoH) 3) If needed, cheap items to help secure kills with Haunt (Phase Boots, Urn) 4) If needed, cheap survivability for ganks, etc. (i.e. naked Vit Booster, Urn) 5) Radiance The reason Urn is so good is because it gives 2), 3), and 4) above, and it's really easy to get charges with Haunt, and it is dirt cheap so you can get that Radiance faster. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On October 01 2014 18:46 ahswtini wrote: yes all spectre illusions benefit from desolate bonus damage I meant the bloodseeker bloodrite thing. I know it works with zeus and prophet, but if you use it on Spectre and she haunts, to her haunts get the bonus 40% for their desolate/radiance burn? That's what I was curios about. I didn't think illusions would get the bloodrite bonus. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 02 2014 04:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I meant the bloodseeker bloodrite thing. I know it works with zeus and prophet, but if you use it on Spectre and she haunts, to her haunts get the bonus 40% for their desolate/radiance burn? That's what I was curios about. I didn't think illusions would get the bloodrite bonus. Not tested it but since Bloodrite works on base damage and all abilities then I'm thinking it should work on the desolate damage itself, hence boosting the desolate damage transferred to illusions. Just a guess and I can't check myself right now (in work). | ||
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