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FrozenProbe
Profile Joined March 2012
Italy276 Posts
May 28 2014 13:41 GMT
#81
stronk hero
Conquest101
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1395 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-10 15:41:09
July 10 2014 15:38 GMT
#82
So I've recently been playing this hero a lot (and by a lot I mean like 5 games) and doing pretty well. Fun hero and potentially very high impact even with little farm. To begin with, I'm a fairly casual player. I probably play like 10-15 games a week (mostly on my weekend) and I'm pretty scrubby. My Dotabuff matches alternate between very high and high skill (dunno what MMR that is), which honestly surprised me when I first saw it. I thought I was more of a baddie than that.

Anyways, at my level, I frequently end up being the solo support with 4 cores or 3 cores and that 1 "support" that never actually buys courier or wards or smokes or dust. So here's some questions:

1. Assuming the above situation and me being forced to buy both courier and wards at lvl 1, what should I prioritize with my remaining gold? Obviously boots first is now out of the question. I've been going tangoes, 2x clarity, branches.

2. Assuming I'm not solo offlane (which I actually really liked the one time it happened), is there a point where I just need to ditch whoever I'm supporting and go stack and jungle. I mean, unless the other lanes are snowballing hard and getting towers (at which point it's probably moot), I will probably never get a blink in lane or even from stacking and pulling considering I'm buying all wards, upping courier, etc. And dual lane vs dual lane, pulling often is iffy.

3. I've been going brown boots -> blink (sometimes stick first) -> arcane -> aghs or veil or force staff depending on team comp and need. I've built a mek in one game and sometimes a bracer early. Should I be picking up an urn assuming no one else on my team builds one? If the game goes late, what should I prioritize? Shiva's?

4. Any general advice would be much appreciated. Assume a hard game where I'm solo support (most often the case :p)
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
July 10 2014 16:53 GMT
#83
-SK is typically played as a roaming support, and can be paired with another strong roaming support due to lacking damage. So basically staying off the map and looking for gank opportunities and jungling in between.

-He's not a very good lane support, though he can be part of a tri-lane. His stun is the same duration at all levels but short range at early levels, so it's better as a follow-up to another stun early on.

-A lot of times all it takes is to ask the other support to buy courier/ward/etc. early so you can get your Blink faster, then you can help with support items after. Even pubs know a fast Blink is needed on SK.

-Urn is pretty good on SK yes. Get it after Blink. Shiva is good on SK but a luxury.

Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 10 2014 21:43 GMT
#84
I thought you get Urn before Blink?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
HighTimeDotA
Profile Joined May 2014
Canada1412 Posts
July 10 2014 21:57 GMT
#85
waste of gold and unnecessary delay of your blink. you kill potential at lvl6 is 9000x higher if you have a blink, i got the math to prove it.
rtz is like the Bieber of dota, true Canadian treasure.
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
July 11 2014 01:18 GMT
#86
Yes Blink before Urn but Urn's component pieces are nice way to get rid of your unreliable gold before you die though.
DucK-
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Singapore11447 Posts
July 11 2014 03:52 GMT
#87
If you have terrible lanes and no one is supporting your safe lane spectre or something, don't join him. Just stay in the jungle and get your blink. Thats becsuse you contribute nothing in that lane, give up on potential gold, and steal exp. Unless of course your other lanes have some kill potential, in which you may want to roam instead.
Conquest101
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1395 Posts
July 11 2014 04:09 GMT
#88
Thanks for the answers guys.

Yeah, low level all-pick pubs (most of my games) generally don't end up with great lanes or support duos. Of course the same usually applies to the enemy team as well.
HighTimeDotA
Profile Joined May 2014
Canada1412 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-11 04:44:22
July 11 2014 04:42 GMT
#89
On July 11 2014 10:18 Skyro wrote:
Yes Blink before Urn but Urn's component pieces are nice way to get rid of your unreliable gold before you die though.


most of your gold will be unreliable when farming up to a blink though.

sidenote: even if you are full out farming neuts a set of wards is always helpful if the other support is too poor to afford them, also flying courier is a must at 3min. those are 2 of the items i would delay blink for.
rtz is like the Bieber of dota, true Canadian treasure.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
July 11 2014 06:27 GMT
#90
Be very careful how you play this guy, it's quite easy to screw your team over early on. Ever since the patch I've found SK to be a terrible hero to have on your team unless he's actually in that upper tier of support players (5k+). Almost all the 4k-5k SKs think they're Enigma and will do nothing but jungle the first 10 minutes, except when Enigma has 70-80 cs + a kill the SK will have 30-35 and no impact. Even less help than that stereotypical useless jungle Doom without a bottle and with unlucky creep spawns since at least devour gives you lots of free money. SK's a fantastic roamer but you have to balance stacking with contribution, and avoid farming single camps unless there are no openings or weaknesses present.

As you're probably only going to pick SK with a dual support lineup (otherwise you can't use the jungle), here's a basic plan to stand by every game:

1) If your other support is cooperative, start boots first. SK is a monster ganker, his only weakness being low initiation range at early levels, and boots first solves that. It also is crucial for letting you move between roaming and stacking.
2) Check rune and try to scout out their initial obs placement. It's crucial to see if a) offlaner has vision of possible ganks and b) if their mid can you see you moving from safelane to gank him. If they have wards and you don't have sentries, then you'll either need to bring them out early or bypass them with smokes. Most offlaners will feel very secure with an undisturbed ward showing no supports and are easy pickings for a dual smoke gank wraparound.
3) Try for FB on the offlaner by hiding in the trees and walking behind if he's brave enough to walk to creep wave. FB'ing mid is also possible, particularly if it's some weakling like SF and your mid blocks well, but it's more reliable to control the safelane.
4) If offlane is playing scared/has ward, stack hard camp. If you gank and miss stack timing, go double pull then gank or stack hard camp. If a gank opportunity surfaces, do it, if not stack again. If you mess up timing and can't stack hard camp, stack medium camp and pray for no golems.
5) If rune appears in the safelane spawn location and your mid doesn't need it, take it after stacking and gank mid or their offlaner.
6) Keeping threatening ganks on their offlaner but if it doesn't work out make sure you are back to stack the hard camp by :52. If you're being thwarted by a possible ward, smoke. If your other support is competent and your moron carry can't control the wave equilibrium, consider doing a backstab behind their T1 tower (depends on offlaner). Getting that early kill and level 2 will help immensely. You really want to get level 3 by the time you have a quad hard camp stack (3-6 mins)
7) Once it's nighttime, consider ganking mid. Depending on the matchup your other support might not even be needed. It's extremely difficult for most enemy mids to get into a safe position against even a lvl 4 or 5 boots SK burrowstrike during night. If creeps are in the river/your high ground you can even just run up the lane. Even better with a good rune.
8) Once you have a quad hard stack and lvl 2 sand storm, kill the quad stack. If you can stack the other hard camp or a medium camp afterwards do it, otherwise choose between threatening a gank/pulling depending on the scenario.
9) Once you kill the quad stack and theres no good ganking opportunity, kill your other dual medium/hard stack.
10) Alternate between ganking and stacking hard camp again until you get Blink. Don't bother killing anything less than a dual stack, and ideally wait for a triple. If any of your ganks went well, the Blink comes surprisingly fast.


(Also note that if you get level 3 with a 3-4 stack hard camp, level sand storm as you will get level 2 burrow from killing it anyway.

I don't have the replay anymore, but just for numbers sake, Fy''s SK in a pubs shows how efficient the hero can really be: http://dotabuff.com/matches/661336831 . I believe he got an 830-9 min Boots Blink smoke with 3-4 ganks, whereas your typical pub SK will have 0 ganks and still get a 10-11 min Blink.
Liquipedia
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-11 06:46:16
July 11 2014 06:45 GMT
#91
On July 11 2014 13:42 HighTimeDotA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2014 10:18 Skyro wrote:
Yes Blink before Urn but Urn's component pieces are nice way to get rid of your unreliable gold before you die though.


most of your gold will be unreliable when farming up to a blink though.

sidenote: even if you are full out farming neuts a set of wards is always helpful if the other support is too poor to afford them, also flying courier is a must at 3min. those are 2 of the items i would delay blink for.


Obviously I was talking about early on when you are roaming around and stacking camps, when you are actually putting yourself in danger by attempting ganks. You really shouldn't be afk farming jungle for 10 min with SK from the get go.
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
July 11 2014 13:23 GMT
#92
On July 11 2014 15:27 Ver wrote:
Be very careful how you play this guy, it's quite easy to screw your team over early on. Ever since the patch I've found SK to be a terrible hero to have on your team unless he's actually in that upper tier of support players (5k+). Almost all the 4k-5k SKs think they're Enigma and will do nothing but jungle the first 10 minutes, except when Enigma has 70-80 cs + a kill the SK will have 30-35 and no impact. Even less help than that stereotypical useless jungle Doom without a bottle and with unlucky creep spawns since at least devour gives you lots of free money. SK's a fantastic roamer but you have to balance stacking with contribution, and avoid farming single camps unless there are no openings or weaknesses present.

As you're probably only going to pick SK with a dual support lineup (otherwise you can't use the jungle), here's a basic plan to stand by every game:

1) If your other support is cooperative, start boots first. SK is a monster ganker, his only weakness being low initiation range at early levels, and boots first solves that. It also is crucial for letting you move between roaming and stacking.
2) Check rune and try to scout out their initial obs placement. It's crucial to see if a) offlaner has vision of possible ganks and b) if their mid can you see you moving from safelane to gank him. If they have wards and you don't have sentries, then you'll either need to bring them out early or bypass them with smokes. Most offlaners will feel very secure with an undisturbed ward showing no supports and are easy pickings for a dual smoke gank wraparound.
3) Try for FB on the offlaner by hiding in the trees and walking behind if he's brave enough to walk to creep wave. FB'ing mid is also possible, particularly if it's some weakling like SF and your mid blocks well, but it's more reliable to control the safelane.
4) If offlane is playing scared/has ward, stack hard camp. If you gank and miss stack timing, go double pull then gank or stack hard camp. If a gank opportunity surfaces, do it, if not stack again. If you mess up timing and can't stack hard camp, stack medium camp and pray for no golems.
5) If rune appears in the safelane spawn location and your mid doesn't need it, take it after stacking and gank mid or their offlaner.
6) Keeping threatening ganks on their offlaner but if it doesn't work out make sure you are back to stack the hard camp by :52. If you're being thwarted by a possible ward, smoke. If your other support is competent and your moron carry can't control the wave equilibrium, consider doing a backstab behind their T1 tower (depends on offlaner). Getting that early kill and level 2 will help immensely. You really want to get level 3 by the time you have a quad hard camp stack (3-6 mins)
7) Once it's nighttime, consider ganking mid. Depending on the matchup your other support might not even be needed. It's extremely difficult for most enemy mids to get into a safe position against even a lvl 4 or 5 boots SK burrowstrike during night. If creeps are in the river/your high ground you can even just run up the lane. Even better with a good rune.
8) Once you have a quad hard stack and lvl 2 sand storm, kill the quad stack. If you can stack the other hard camp or a medium camp afterwards do it, otherwise choose between threatening a gank/pulling depending on the scenario.
9) Once you kill the quad stack and theres no good ganking opportunity, kill your other dual medium/hard stack.
10) Alternate between ganking and stacking hard camp again until you get Blink. Don't bother killing anything less than a dual stack, and ideally wait for a triple. If any of your ganks went well, the Blink comes surprisingly fast.


(Also note that if you get level 3 with a 3-4 stack hard camp, level sand storm as you will get level 2 burrow from killing it anyway.

I don't have the replay anymore, but just for numbers sake, Fy''s SK in a pubs shows how efficient the hero can really be: http://dotabuff.com/matches/661336831 . I believe he got an 830-9 min Boots Blink smoke with 3-4 ganks, whereas your typical pub SK will have 0 ganks and still get a 10-11 min Blink.

This guide should help me a lot when I play with my really prissy/needy carry friend
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-23 06:37:05
October 23 2015 06:35 GMT
#93
Okay I need up to date info on how to play to his hero as a support. Tired of playing games without support at 3k so I thought I'd play a hero that has an escape, big teamfight impact and the farming capabilities to pick up wards and still have item continuation.

I'm wondering what items I go and in what order generally? I rushed blink in some games but I was manastarved to the point that I could barely ult and stun. Mana boots first felt better, players at my level are bad at managing mana so the item was often very critical to the team as well, but I was wondering whether soul ring tranquils would be better?

I usually follow up with veil or blade mail according to what I feel is useful. Should I pick up glimmer or forcestaff over those?

Any tips on stacking/ efficiency/ timings? I like to try and stack the big camp and check the rune at 2/4/6 mins. I usually try to get quick boots from the sideshop and see if there's potential for a kill lvl 1, then I pull until lvl 3 and kill a stack if the safelane is secured. I wonder how I can get to 3 asap? When I stack and pull the camp doesnt die at all, is single pull and connect the way to go? Should I go gank mid when night hits or is killing stacks and getting to my items more impactful?

Any specialists whose MatchIDs I should look up?

Halp! Ty.
I think esports is pretty nice.
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
October 23 2015 08:15 GMT
#94
blademail is a weird item given u tend to be sandstorming during fights. consider euls as an item after blink.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
October 23 2015 10:57 GMT
#95
The thing I usually do is blink and then mana boots, followed by force staff. I think that is a pretty generally strong build and should let you live to pull off multiple stuns in a fight (which is really strong especially at lower mmrs)
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
ncsix
Profile Joined February 2012
1370 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-23 11:15:19
October 23 2015 11:14 GMT
#96
On July 11 2014 00:38 Conquest101 wrote:
So I've recently been playing this hero a lot (and by a lot I mean like 5 games) and doing pretty well. Fun hero and potentially very high impact even with little farm. To begin with, I'm a fairly casual player. I probably play like 10-15 games a week (mostly on my weekend) and I'm pretty scrubby. My Dotabuff matches alternate between very high and high skill (dunno what MMR that is), which honestly surprised me when I first saw it. I thought I was more of a baddie than that.

Anyways, at my level, I frequently end up being the solo support with 4 cores or 3 cores and that 1 "support" that never actually buys courier or wards or smokes or dust. So here's some questions:

1. Assuming the above situation and me being forced to buy both courier and wards at lvl 1, what should I prioritize with my remaining gold? Obviously boots first is now out of the question. I've been going tangoes, 2x clarity, branches.

2. Assuming I'm not solo offlane (which I actually really liked the one time it happened), is there a point where I just need to ditch whoever I'm supporting and go stack and jungle. I mean, unless the other lanes are snowballing hard and getting towers (at which point it's probably moot), I will probably never get a blink in lane or even from stacking and pulling considering I'm buying all wards, upping courier, etc. And dual lane vs dual lane, pulling often is iffy.

3. I've been going brown boots -> blink (sometimes stick first) -> arcane -> aghs or veil or force staff depending on team comp and need. I've built a mek in one game and sometimes a bracer early. Should I be picking up an urn assuming no one else on my team builds one? If the game goes late, what should I prioritize? Shiva's?

4. Any general advice would be much appreciated. Assume a hard game where I'm solo support (most often the case :p)



Even if you're the only "support" in the game, still consider going boots first, burrow strike if your team chances of securing bounty rune and/or first blood is pretty high. If several kills happen down the river and you're part of the assist gold, its gives you a better start and more effect than minute 0 wards.

If you miss, or didn't decide to go boots + burrowstrike, just farm asap, stack and guard the runes. Pull small and large camps. Have the mindset that you will eventually get the blink by really supporting your cores get ganks. Meantime, arcanes first and getting good map vision is probably the safest bet.

In general you should really be efficient and not sacrifice needlessly or always running back to the fountain. Can consider building veil of discord from components in the side shop. Goes without saying its better for a high magical damage draft. Aghs is kind of luxury where the game is more or less in your lap. Just get max damage blink epi.

Forcestaff is another great item, Sandking doesn't really need the extra armor from Shivas. You did start of as a support and if the team played well, you wouldn't be in a position to need to buy Shivas.





Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-09 22:09:25
February 09 2016 22:04 GMT
#97
What's people's opinion on aether lens with this hero? I tend to lean towards veil and aghs after blink but there seem to be quite a few SK's that build aether at different points in the game.

Edit: also, since the last post in this thread is so old, I feel the new aghs is pretty much a core item on SK now.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-09 22:32:05
February 09 2016 22:19 GMT
#98
I'm pretty meh on it. If you get arcane boots then it's maybe worth disassembling it for Aether lens when you get higher level and your mana pool is large enough (either if you can't afford aghs because you can't find farm, you don't want aghs, or after you complete aghs & force staff).

But it seems like tranquil boots are gaining in popularity with Sand King and I think if you go that route you don't want it at all (both force staff and aghs would be better pick ups).

I don't think there are many situations where Aether lens would make a difference in a fight over other items like Veil, Aghs, or Force Staff.

I don't know that Agh's is core either, at least not before force staff. It's very fun and probably pretty solid, but the two main things you want are long initiation range and to stun as many people as possible. I think often force staff gets you that more than long range burrow strike. If you need a 2k range initiation then Force staff is faster than burrow strike (I think to the point of having more epi pulses hit) and if you want to maximize the # of people you stun I feel like often times Force staff's ability to get a better angle on your burrowstrike will outshine the extra epicenter range. At some point your initiation range is going to be really situational, there's no point in a 3k distance initiation if you just end up fighting 1v5.

Where Aghs would shine is if you expect to get big caustic finale bursts off of your burrowstrike or you want to be able to stun chase some slippery heroes. That or just after force staff when it would really maximize your ability to be all over the enemy team.
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Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6228 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-10 11:52:49
February 10 2016 05:18 GMT
#99
Aether is useful but not essential imo, and not usually something I'd get after blink.

SK's post-blink decision tree is a matter of what he needs at the time, like any other hero.

If you're struggling for initiation range, consider force (+600), aether (+400) or aghs (+650).
If you're not living to get extra rounds of burrowstrike off post-epi, consider force or euls.
If you're wrecking fools with epi and they're inexplicably not buying BKB, consider veil.

There's not too many situations I'd want aether over a force staff, since force gives way more utility. I might skip force to go straight for aghs if I found myself with a big pile of gold, but I think that's pretty greedy. Being able to divorce your repositioning from your stun gives you a lot more options.

I do think a later aghs is core though. Even if you don't need a 3k range initiation every time, it opens up so many opportunities that wouldn't exist otherwise. This only gets more important as picks on key heroes become more critical. If you go all the way, the eventual quadfecta (??) of blink-force-aghs-aether makes him an omnipresent nightmare. Caustic aoe and the extra heroes you can stun per burrow are just icing on the cake.

It's also worth noting that there's an arms race that goes on as your opponents get more and more equipped to hunt you while you're charging epi, and SK consequently wants to be further and further back. The old choices like shivas are still nice, and maybe I'm under-valuing them, but aghs is really freaking good and aether helps too.

Whatever you do don't be part of that plague of aether-instead-of-blink SKs that were wandering around when it first came out.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
February 10 2016 17:02 GMT
#100
It feels like you can make a case for many items, I looked up high ranking SK players and there's not much overlap beyond blink aghs in their item builds. Some always go euls, some dagon eth blade, some aether force, some urn hex hearth, some veil octarine. It's pretty cool there's that much diversity even at the highest levels of SK play.

Personally I build blink into tranquils, veil, aghs, octarine, blade mail. Unless there's obvious reasons to build something else. SK becomes so tanky that you can be really in their face and tank for your DPS'ers. You have such nice stat gain that I feel you're much better off frontlining late game rather than afk sandstorming after stun.
I think esports is pretty nice.
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