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On April 29 2014 07:05 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 06:56 Firebolt145 wrote:
Ice Wall is actually a stupidly strong spell if you can place it well. Idk, I would almost always have the more damage, longer stun, better cast time of inpale/earth spike compared to the extra range and better cooldown. It's kind of like saying ta is the strongest carry in the game because she gets kunkka cleave on every hit. Yea, sure, it would be nice if it worked like that, but it's unrealistic to expect it to happen with any kind of regularity.
He meant the invoker one yo
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On April 29 2014 07:00 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 06:49 hacklebeast wrote:
I wouldn't skill macro pyre before lvl 13 even if it came with the aghs upgrade built in. In effect it forces the team to move, and does 1 second's worth of damage. It's like a shitty version of cold feet that can hit more than one person. There is a reason that the only time jak is picked is when ds/mag are imbalanced as hell.
Give aghs upgrade a 30% slow that goes through bkb. then we are getting somewhere. its area denial Its area denial is amazing right now, nothing else in the game does htat much.
Sand storm does it better as a non ult.
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Burning aghs rushes only in very specific strategies aka not comparable to pubs. Other times he buys it late. I still contest the value in it but they do it to have manfighting cooldowns up as soon as possible and I can't argue with the results.
PS I've been calling WK legit for ages that hero kicks ass and I'm super glad his crit is getting fixed since the actual worst skill point in dota 6.8 was the first one into his crit in IMO. -1 armor makes his lane worse but oh well.
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United States15275 Posts
Unlike Sand Storm, Macropyre isn't countered by dust/wards/gem.
On April 29 2014 07:09 Sn0_Man wrote:
Burning aghs rushes only in very specific strategies aka not comparable to pubs. Other times he buys it late. I still contest the value in it but they do it to have manfighting cooldowns up as soon as possible and I can't argue with the results.
PS I've been calling WK legit for ages that hero kicks ass and I'm super glad his crit is getting fixed since the actual worst skill point in dota 6.8 was the first one into his crit in IMO. -1 armor makes his lane worse but oh well.
He doesn't rush in very specific strategies. He always rushes it every time he picks Void. When he was playing Void two years ago he went Midas -> Aghs -> BKB -> damage items -> Refresher; today he does the exact same opener. The only differences are he sometimes delays damage items for AC and Refresher is deemed situational. Oh and he went Battlefury like once lol. But I hate that people were so quick to praise and copy it when the item build was better one patch ago. But since there was no acclaimed pro player doing it in 6.79, it was dismissed as trash. It's an illustration of how much the community overestimates its own intelligence.
Well aren't YOU a prophet! :D
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Unlike macropyre, sand storm isn't counters by 2 steps to the left.
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There are dozens of examples of stuff like that, from Aegis DR Clinkz to Armlet LD, but if we were to add up everytime someone theorycrafted some absurd strategy and it didn't work... The standard stance will always be to be skeptical.
Noone can predict the future in Dota, even pros look dumb on patch analysis sometimes. But theorycrafting too much can be really annoying because it's impossible to argue against it. If you say it doesn't work because of X, you can always theorycraft a reason why that's not true and the discussion gets dumb. We had pages of discussion on how Lion beats OD in lane for absolutelly no reason because there's no counter to theorycraft.
Even if Jakiro comes back, you can't even say it's because of the Aghs. Maybe the Hero was actually playable before the patch. Maybe it was the metagame shift that made him viable, and noone can predict that. There are plenty of examples of good heroes that weren't picked just because people didn't realize they were good. DS was completelly broken on the start of Dota 2 but it took some time for him to become the top pick he became.
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On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote:
Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly
enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good
also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
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On April 29 2014 07:30 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote:
Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
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Jakiro is a decent hero, is just that not many players can actually use his spells (especially since icepath was fixed, the hero is basically in easy mode compared to the old really clunky jakiro). And Agha has always been one of his best best snowballing items, it used to covered almost half length of the (enemy) base and now that length will be longer.
I almost always get necro3 and then agha for the lolz (usually some advantaged game) when we were camping the enemy fountain since the agha components actually compliment the tankiness of jakiro. Otherwise dagger is a tryhard/all-in good item in some situations.
I doubt that he will get picked much in pro game because the 'mainstream' jakiro build nowadays is maxing liquid fire first. Don't get me wrong liquid fire is a good spell, but playing the hero at a pro level but cant even land some icepath right (more so giving up that spell......)...
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United States15275 Posts
On April 29 2014 07:13 hacklebeast wrote:
Unlike macropyre, sand storm isn't counters by 2 steps to the left.
Unlike Sand Storm, I don't get a free kill on a support by spending 180 gold.
On April 29 2014 07:19 SKC wrote:
There are dozens of examples of stuff like that, from Aegis DR Clinkz to Armlet LD, but if we were to add up everytime someone theorycrafted some absurd strategy and it didn't work... The standard stance will always be to be skeptical.
Noone can predict the future in Dota, even pros look dumb on patch analysis sometimes. But theorycrafting too much can be really annoying because it's impossible to argue against it. If you say it doesn't work because of X, you can always theorycraft a reason why that's not true and the discussion gets dumb. We had pages of discussion on how Lion beats OD in lane for absolutelly no reason because there's no counter to theorycraft.
Even if Jakiro comes back, you can't even say it's because of the Aghs. Maybe the Hero was actually playable before the patch. Maybe it was the metagame shift that made him viable, and noone can predict that. There are plenty of examples of good heroes that weren't picked just because people didn't realize they were good. DS was completelly broken on the start of Dota 2 but it took some time for him to become the top pick he became.
Hmmm...that's not what I'm saying.
A) 95% of the time, support Jakiro will never get the gold to buy Aghs or he will have used it to buy cheaper items like Urn/ Force/Veil. Since he doesn't get any farm priority the Aghs change is nice but ultimately irrelevant for him as a support.
B) There are a few limited scenarios when you can run Jakiro mid. This usually include decent-good lane matchups like Ember and TA along with aggressive team fighters. Using him as a mid is the only time where he can get both the levels and gold for Aghs to be an option.
C) Prior to 6.81, the Aghs upgrade was so bad you would never buy it anyway. Veil was superior in every sense. The new Aghs is actually worth buying for the duration and cast distance.
D) After buying an INT item (Euls/Force usually), a strong argument can be made to buy Aghs over Veil/Necro 3 if you have another Mek carrier. Veil won't give you the area control or DoT of the improved Macropyre while Necro 3 is more expensive and nerfed. And since you get it every 60 seconds you can afford to use Macro just as a deterrent during fights or breaching high ground.
Jakiro is already viable. He's one of the more flexible pushing supports as he offers good CC without needing to farm the jungle; all he needs is 2 points in Liquid Fire and a creep wave. You don't need a heavy pushing lineup to accompany him either; the AS slow makes tower damage negligible. But unless the game goes 40-50 minutes the new Aghs doesn't affect him as a support. It only affects players who go mid but the 6.81 change gives them a greater reward for doing so.
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jakiro mid would get mek or necrobook almost 100% of the time
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14 seconds... wut
i still dont think the upgrade is any good for the cost, but sure would be fun to use
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No i dont think that veil is superior than Agha. It usually is when you get that on many of the INT heroes but Jakiro's tankiness can utilize agha's components very well, unlike Veil you are gambling about 2k gold on hitting your ulti on the enemies (in which it is hard to begin with) while getting veil for icepath/dualbreath is rather wasted, unless you have multiple nuker heroes/nukers line up then maybe it is justified.
While with Agha you only use ulti when you find the right timing, otherwise, enjoy the hp and mana that Agha gives you is the biggest reason to get that item. Agha on jakiro is a rare example, the same reasoning only applied to very few other heroes.
Necro, dagger, forcestaff, mek, eul, agha (and of course hex) are better investments. Necro and Agha are the biggest snowballer items on jakiro, if you could get an early hex then you might as well get buriza go full carry mode.
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Carry jakiro goes mjornir almost 100% of the time
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United States15275 Posts
On April 29 2014 07:55 Kupon3ss wrote:
jakiro mid would get mek or necrobook almost 100% of the time
If I have a DS/ET on my team I can afford to skip Mek and I'm pretty hesitant on Necro 3 now. If Jakiro was a good split-pusher (huehuehue) I wouldn't mind the XP nerfs as much but you're going to naturally feed minions to the enemy team.
On April 29 2014 08:02 BurningSera wrote:
No i dont think that veil is superior than Agha. It usually is when you get that on many of the INT heroes but Jakiro's tankiness can utilize agha's components very well, unlike Veil you are gambling on hitting your ulti on the enemies (in which it is hard to begin with) while getting veil for icepath/dualbreath is rather wasted, unless you have multiple nuker heroes/nukers line up then maybe it is justified.
Necro, dagger, forcestaff, mek, eul, agha (and of course hex) are better investments. Necro and Agha are the biggest snowballer items on jakiro, if you could get an early hex then you might as well get buriza go full carry mode.
It was certainly superior in 6.80. It gave the same increase in Macropyre damage as Aghs but cost 1530 less gold and buffed all magical damage in the area. Not to mention you only need to store Null + HoIW.
I think Dagger is a waste. He can't Blink initiate with his crummy cast point. Force is just more useful overall. He's not a great Hex user either. The Necro nerfs hurt him more than other heroes since he's not naturally adapt at ratting it out. He has to directly fight with them to make the item effective.
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On April 29 2014 08:04 Kupon3ss wrote:
Carry jakiro goes mjornir almost 100% of the time
now that item is fixed i will buy it more i guess
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On April 29 2014 07:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
That was old icepath
omg slightly less damage early ohnoes
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I still think the funniest change is BB's buff. I am not even sure who is the real windrunner now lol. I miss the radi rushed BB so much.
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EPT
