|
Please read this before going on: I am not making any attempt at theorycraft; this is just my personal analysis and opinion on Terran mid-game. If you must know, I’m a masters player and I have an experienced background in BW. If you must bring theorycraft into this thread, have legitimate reasoning or a VOD or replay backing that up. Also, please take the time to read at least the opening post; I will be updating it from time to time with my responses if you do not wish to read the entire thread. It’s lengthy, but I tried to organize it as best I could.
_________________________________________________________________
It's generally accepted, whether for the right reasons or the wrong, that the Terran midgame is weaker than the Protoss and Zerg midgames. Some people point that the Terran army is weak and has no durability. Others say the army is immobile. Others point to fundamental problems that aren't going to be fixed anytime soon.
I've been trying to find real mid-game builds that efficiently solve four key problems with any build: money, map, macro, and timeliness. Can I create a build that allows me to mass units, mass workers/bases, control the map, and do this all in a timely fashion?
Short answer: no.
It is a given fact that no such build exists. You can't get two bases, 6 factories, mobile medivacs with marines, and get all of that within 8 minutes without sacrificing something.
However, I can’t find an efficient way around these four problems with the Terran race. Here’s why:
1) Money
Terrans have the worst worker production out of the three race, ignoring mules for a second. Since we have the slowest time producing workers, it will take more time for us to create enough workers to saturate two bases. This means the risk of starting a second base (I mean base, not command center) won’t be worth the benefit for quite a while.
There have been some creative ways to solve this, like making a PF at the gold or making 4 OC's on two bases to abuse the mule mechanic. However, mules don't need a second base to be effective. You could have 8 OC's on one base before you'll need a second base.
The time it takes for us to get up to our max potential on two bases is at least two or three minutes longer than our zerg and protoss counterparts : enough time for 3 collosi or a swarm of roaches.
My personal approach to this is to basically get the 2nd OC as fast as possible for the extra mule and stay on one base until I get enough of an army to secure the second base, where the transferred scvs are at full potential. I still don’t know if this is the best way, but so far, it is the safest way that I have found that actually works.
2) Macro
Terrans also, unfortunately, own the worst production buildings out of the three races. Technically, our production buildings should be on par with Protoss buildings because we both share similar macro styles. The difference: chronoboost and warpgates. The warpgate mechanic is game-changing in the mid game and chronoboost can be used for everything, making Terran macro games look embarrassingly weak sometimes.
In order to compete with a Protoss, let alone a zerg, we either have to force them down to our level of macro or cut production in order to mass up more production facilities, which is a difficult thing to do before the mid/late game hits. This is probably one reason why 2base baneling busts (also known as the Kyrix bust? Need clarification here) is rather difficult to stop: the other race can simply out-produce Terrans before we have a chance to get enough production buildings or enough of the correct unit.
This is one reason why massing bio is so popular, aside from its raw DPS and mobility, because of how easily barracks are made. This is also the same reason why Terrans have so many problems vs Protoss in the midgame as well; we constantly go past the point-of-no-return in building production buildings where switching to massing starports or factories takes away too many resources from unit and scv production. After investing a hefty sum of minerals and gas, we have to get add-ons, upgrades, and wait even longer for the units to actually build to justify the initial cost…5 minutes ago.
What build, unit, or gameplay can stall long enough for this tech switch to be effective? I still have not found a decent way to cover the transition other than starting straight with hellions or banshees. Even then, harass can get shut down, and adequate defense generally requires a larger or better army, an army that is pretty difficult to get if all my resources are being diverted towards production buildings, upgrades, and waiting on those units to come out.
3) Map
Terrans have the most efficient, but also the flimsiest map control in the game. However, the problem isn’t with our choice or our options of harassment, but due to the fact that our harassment is basically our entire army for a good portion of our game.. Not that harassing and kiting are bad things, but it’s problematic when the midgame comes along and I find that half of my resources were devoted to harassment and I only have half of my resources left to do everything else.
The reason the mutalisk and the vulture in BW were so good at map control wasn’t only due to their cost, their potential in micro, and their usability, but because you didn’t have to invest additional resources to keep that harassment effective. You could always invest more, but you didn’t necessarily have to. In ZvT, you generally made 9 mutalisks and kept them alive until hive tech. In TvP, spider mines generally allowed the Terran to get to siege mode with a second base and 4-6 factories running before the observers could come out and do anything.
In SC2, we have nothing to keep the Protoss or the Zerg contained within the first 10 minutes. In fact, it is often times the Protoss and the Zerg retaining map control with giant speedling balls and sentries. The few times the Terran does manage to get map control, we can barely keep it long enough to get an expo and production buildings up, partially because we barely have enough money to get more scvs, a second cc, and 3+ production facilities and partially because we have to keep spending money to keep the other guy locked in his base.
I also have not found a way to address this problem until I get dropships, which by then is usually too late if I already built an OC at around 19 supply. Hellions, reapers , banshees, and marine/marauder kiting either involve a substantial investment in some way to be effective or are too easily shut down and turn out to be a waste of resources.
4) Timeliness
Without a doubt, Terran is the slowest race out of the three. The larvae mechanic gets rid of the production facility problem for Zergs, and chronoboost/warpgate means that Protosses don’t have to wait as long for a unit to become worth it’s money, which poses a few problems for Terrans if they are always 30 seconds faster than us. Our armies are also not very quick, meaning that speedlings are going to be impossible to catch unless we get lucky. Protosses don’t have to worry about speed as much because of the warpgate mechanic. What do terrans have?
There’s absolutely no way Terrans can compete with Protoss or Zerg for speed. We have to constantly be trading armies, which poses a different problem as I’ve stated up there, or find a decent way to harass and keep their speed at bay, which, again, poses a different problem. People have found hellion drops and pure marines to be rather effective sometimes, but really, how long is that going to last for?
I have not found a reliable, fast, efficient, and timely way to get to massed T2 tech yet. Harass is hit or miss and is heavily based on the reaction and skill level of your opponents. I have no way to keep map control long enough to cover a transition when I have money. I have no money to stay safe when I try to start off early. This, I believe, is the largest obstacle we’ll have to face.
If we stay on massed T1 units forever, Terrans will probably wither out and die to more refined and safer play from Zerg and Protoss. The marine may be all-powerful, but he is not invincible, and we cannot afford to put the responsibility of the entire army on this one little dude for very much longer.
Discussion
Whenever I see a Terran win a midgame battle, it is usually more the other side’s fault for not reacting properly rather than outstanding play from the Terran. I’m not talking about single, stellar games, but rather the general trend of mid-game Terran.
My current goal is to find a build that gets me safely to 6 gases and enough scvs in a timely fashion to support that gas in order to get enough tanks, ravens, banshees, and whatever other units I need in a large enough quantity where I have enough money to build enough production buildings to cover for the slow build times of the Terran.
Currently, the only build I have come up with is a 1raxFE TvZ build revolving around keeping a single reaper alive and dragging as much crap down with me as possible. I am at a lost in midgame TvP and constantly resort to bad habits (i.e. 7 raxes on 2 bases and hope he doesn't have colossi).
Am I right assuming these things? Has anyone found a legitimate method to cover a transitional build, such as one that switches from bio to biomech? I’ve seen guides on hellion drops and pure marine games, but those seem directed at hoping the other guy reacts or overreacts and dies – not to mention the amount of resources you have to invest in rushing for drops or massing pure marines is enormous.
Also, what are your general builds going about the midgame and what kind of problems do you guys face? Are those problems related to the one's I've mentioned or are they different ones that I haven't mentioned?
|
I don't know why you want to do a Banshee/Tank/Raven/whatever composition. Until Siege Tanks become 2 supply and it's viable to do full turtle Mech like BW (the maxed tank army in SC2 is horribly weak as you get so few tanks), primarily Bio armies remain the best answer.
1 Rax FE is safe against zerg on most maps as long as you make a good wall at your natural with your second/third Rax (not applicable on maps like Xel Naga or Metalopolis - you need to invest heavily in Bunkers). 1 Rax FE into 3 or 4 Rax is generally fine against Protoss too on maps where you can build the CC at your natural and protect it with 2 Bunkers, otherwise it's not really worth it since they can keep you stuck up your ramp forever.
Terran T1 tech is their strongest, there's not much point to massing T2. Maybe to hit a timing push (Thor/Banshee/Marine/Raven timing pushes are pretty strong against Protoss, as are Marine/Tank/Raven pushes) but really the Siege Tank costing 3 supply just kills it as a late game power unit.
|
Terran and Timing Attacks = synonyms
Terran has always been this way. There are times when it is safe for you to be on the map and there are times when it isn't. (see boxer vs. sen for a recent example)
You did not mention "tank" one time in your post. They are the most cost effective unit in the terran army and allow you to set up lasting contains. Tank/Marine is one of (if not) the most effective mid-game army compositions in the game.
Terran sometimes needs to cut production from existing structures to get additional production. (the same goes for the other 2 races, zerg has to cut drones to make units, protoss can't constantly produce out of all the gateways if they want to add more) You do have bunkers and turrets.
|
I agree with you about Terran mid-game lacking strength but that can easily be dealt with.
Vs Toss: 1-2rax FE+bunkers will hold any early P aggression. I've really fallen in love with 250mm cannons lately also, amazing vs collosi to mitigate that heavy damage and allow me to keep a rine-heavy comp.
Vs Zerg I struggle quite a bit, but I usually harass quite a bit(4 rines->2 hellion->1 banshee) then pump some sort of quick tech such as a thor or BC+rines/rauder
|
You forgot that Terran also has the worst upgrade structure and has no way to force air control... 
Anyway one solution is to go into ultra turtle mode, secure your 3rd and eventually 4th bases, then overmax your army on upgraded BCs, building extra OC's so you can sack workers. This strategy includes liberal usage of PFs in chokes, and turret spam/sensor towers to protect vs harass. I've seen Drewbie use it effectively in several ladder games.
The problem, of course, is that games played this way will take 45 minutes to an hour, and I REALLY don't want to do that if it can be avoided...
If you want a TvP build for fast massed t2 I suggest you check out LZ's replay pack.
For TvZ you might want to check out Boxer's style, or Kawaii Rice. Basically constant marine attacks to delay while the tank count slowly builds up.
|
I'm pretty much in the same spot as you.
Hell I had one game where I was on 4 bases with 12 techlab raxes pumping marauders and I still lost after killing all the colossus since his gateway army reinforced faster. I think the correct idea as Terran is to turtle with Siege Tanks and harass with Reapers/Hellions/Banshees/Drops. As far as cost effectiveness goes, Siege Tanks cannot be beaten in that regard. That lets you have a smaller standing army while also teching, macroing and harassing. Since you'll be harassing, your opponent will have a hard time "taking the map."
This is all theory craft of course.
|
A couple of points :
2) Macro
Terrans may have expensive production facilities, but it is very easy to macro with hotkeys and rally points. Protoss can't micro and macro at the same time, we (Terrans) can. I think this is a huge advantage.
4) Timeliness
I fully disagree. What do you mean by slowest ?
We have a viable timing push/poke/harass at almost every stage of the early game. We can just choose the pace of early game, and other races can't.
About the army speed, you say that "we have to find a decent way to harass". Aren't medivacs the best way to harass in the entire game ? They're fast and mobile, and allow ridiculously cost-efficient attacks (hellion drops, double drops). Protoss have to use half their army to deal with a double drop, and you can attack with your main forces in the meanwhile.
About the questions at the end of your post, most of my builds are based on a bio aggression, into a fairly quick expo (6-8 minutes), into a bio/medivacs push while securing a third. This is the easiest/smoothest gameplay I've found so far (I find mech play being far too slow/passive). In all match-up. When on 3 bases you can transition into whatever you want quite easily.
|
I totally agree with the OP atm, Terran is struggling - In Ladder, Please do not use GSL or any other high level play as an example as there are usually a lot more Terran players at higher levels and/or are just better players generally.
At the moment Im stuck in the 2 base 8+rax boat as most Terrans seem to be and just get fast upgs. Lately Im not even getting Factory/ports. Just more rax and keep constantly attacking - Yes Medivacs are great but you can hit some good timings vs a Z if they go ling in to Spire without roaches or banes. Good Spire snipe timing if you get lucky.
There isnt really a good Factory/Port mid-game build. - Yes Tanks (especially marine/tank can be really effective) But if toss get storms/immo/blink stalker It cant be smashed and if Zerg take air control and hit some kind of corruptor/brood timing its hard to hold.
Sure Thors are nice too but if you had that choice. Thors or Goliaths? I know what I'd choose and it wouldnt be the Thor. - Lovely ground DPS especially with upgrades and cannons but so costy and 6 supply damn one whole depot. AntiAir wise - Not even worth it vs any player who knows how to magic box - or split banshees decently. Maybe for use in TvT if opponent gets lots of vikings.
(Little off Topic after this)
Its funny how people say Mules are OP. If Terran didnt have mules the game would be unplayable for us. Next time you think about shouting off about mules being OP go play a custom vs AI one With and one without mules and see how much less you get as Terran without mules.
Stim and bunker nerfs hurt us hard, and the reason behind the Stim nerf is almost lolable. Nerfed because people had trouble Scouting - Thats a player issue not an imbalance issue. What about Scouting Fast leg/blink research or some kind of fast Roach borrow play?
And the bunker nerf just makes it harder to FE - Which you have to do on most maps/MU now to survive/get to mid-game.
Bit of a rant sry =D
|
Some of what you say is true but i think you make it out to be worse than it actually is.
Money: One of terran's big advantages is being able to expand in base, which is really hard to scout for the other races until observers/overseer is out. So i dont know think money is a big problem for Terran. Yes we will behind in workers due to larvae and chrono but we have mules to even it out.
Macro: Yes we need to make more buildings and production facilities than the other races. This is why its important to have a well thought out build that is efficient. Do not play too reactive as a Terran player. "Oh hes getting templar i should get ghosts" "oh now he is getting zealots, i should make blue flame hellions". Playing this way will get you killed because you'll need several new buildings to tech switch that fast and you'll be severely behind in supply. Have a well thought out plan and you wont have a problem getting the necessary production facilites down
|
I disagree, T midgame is the best of the three races, we have so many options with bio upgrades, medivacs, drops, banshees, hellions. It is the Terran late game that is hurting us. All of your macro points you made are magnified when the game goes late. On top of that the T army is just very very slow, and requires you to be able to setup a mid game positon very fast.
|
This is actually very insightful OP. I mean I don't think terran is weak in a general sense, I just really dislike some of those points, where some parts of terran play are so ridiculously bad compared to the other races, mainly the production buildings/tech switching.
It just breaks my heart, since it is what makes rine so important. Rines are versatile enough that aslong as you protect them with other units, no tech switch will *totally* own you, and therefore in all 3 MUs you can bank up on those raxes and don't require to tech switch hardcore. But I mean it's pretty dull to make the rest of your army consist of protecting/killing your opponents AoE units(and hence why warp in templars were so strong in PvT)
|
No offense, I really don't mean to sound harsh when I say this but you sound like a Zerg player.
I'm not saying you should switch to Zerg or that you whine like certain demographics on this forum--simply put, you sound like someone who can't see the forest past the trees.
When I used to play Zerg I was highly upset and hampered by the nature of the drone mechanic. While I knew it's power to produce units was great--I kept making the wrong call on which units to make. You see, when a Zerg player mistakes building one unit instead of another, that player doesn't get his larva back. Every time the moment came to decide whether to build a roach, or drone, or muta, or zergling, or whatever--you were always afraid that you were making the wrong choice.
Now I play Terran, and strangely enough I'm stuck with the exact same problem. As terrans we need to make a choice, early on, what unit composition we will be producing. All bio, all mech, all air, biomech, mechair, bioair or biomechair. The more we emphasize one over the other the stronger and larger our army becomes. We focus it too much and much like zerg we end up making 20 drones just as the 6gate hits and we die with only 2 zerglings out.
The way Zerg learned to handle it was to figure out how to stretch the flexibility of their units. Little things like depending on speedlings to stop hellions, banelings in overlords to weaken the Protoss deathball, etc... In a sense, they began to use their units inefficiently in order for their macro to become more streamlined.
For example, vs Zerg I depend on Turrets, Planetary Fortresses and Hellions to maintain map control from the early game to the midgame. Early Hellions stops zerg from running speedlings off of creep. Turrets+Marines prevents the Mutalisks from hopping in and out of your base allowing you to push forward through the map. I use Hellions to get me a safe expansion, and I use turrets+marines to allow me to get a third. Once on 3bases I either commit to heavy mech/bio/air (mostly bio-mech) apply pressure to get a 4rth started. The 4rth base usually is the main trigger that makes them push hard for the win--crashing their units into my siege line. I normally am able to control 1/4-1/3 of the map while my army smashes expansions that are nearby.
What I mean to say is that each expansion will need a different unit setup to gain and hold. This unit setup cannot really be reactive to what your opponent does, it needs to be transitory to what your build order begins with.
The reason I use Hellions early on is because I need a reactored barracks and tanks to survive the midgame vs zerg. That meant that I needed a build order that gave me early game control while giving me the factory and reactor I needed to transition into. I normally transition to heavy bio play because I need the engineering bay to survive the midgame transition. my lategame has mostly been Thors because I grab an armory at some point to get +2 from the engineering bay. Because I have thors I have to turtle during the mid-late game transition due to lost mobility. This means more bunkers, turrets and planetary fortresses.
I like dictating my build order and transitions based on my desired midgame setup. This is usually dictated by how much map control I want to have at certain points in the game. The amount of map control I get dictates whether or not I get an expansion moreso than either timings or the opponent's economic status.
I actually find that playing this way has improved my midgame drastically for the better. I now lose to my macro more than anything else. Rarely do I lose feeling as if I couldn't have done anything. I now can *feel* when my macro has slipped, when my micro is subpar. Build order losses have stopped happening for the most part, cheeses no longer feel random, and I usually am at my strongest during the midgame *if* the transition went smoothly.
Were my turrets late? I don't get my 3rd in time--the midgame sucks.
Did I use my early hellions to harass instead of to contain and in doing so lost all my hellions? I don't get my natural in time and the midgame sucks.
And so on and so forth.
|
On April 20 2011 08:33 RedMosquito wrote:
Some of what you say is true but i think you make it out to be worse than it actually is.
Money: One of terran's big advantages is being able to expand in base, which is really hard to scout for the other races until observers/overseer is out. So i dont know think money is a big problem for Terran. Yes we will behind in workers due to larvae and chrono but we have mules to even it out.
Macro: Yes we need to make more buildings and production facilities than the other races. This is why its important to have a well thought out build that is efficient. Do not play too reactive as a Terran player. "Oh hes getting templar i should get ghosts" "oh now he is getting zealots, i should make blue flame hellions". Playing this way will get you killed because you'll need several new buildings to tech switch that fast and you'll be severely behind in supply. Have a well thought out plan and you wont have a problem getting the necessary production facilites down
I don't understand this post. So, Terran has to continue playing with the units they have and expect to outmicro and outplay the opponent because we can't tech switch?
|
On April 20 2011 09:11 Velladin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 08:33 RedMosquito wrote:
Some of what you say is true but i think you make it out to be worse than it actually is.
Money: One of terran's big advantages is being able to expand in base, which is really hard to scout for the other races until observers/overseer is out. So i dont know think money is a big problem for Terran. Yes we will behind in workers due to larvae and chrono but we have mules to even it out.
Macro: Yes we need to make more buildings and production facilities than the other races. This is why its important to have a well thought out build that is efficient. Do not play too reactive as a Terran player. "Oh hes getting templar i should get ghosts" "oh now he is getting zealots, i should make blue flame hellions". Playing this way will get you killed because you'll need several new buildings to tech switch that fast and you'll be severely behind in supply. Have a well thought out plan and you wont have a problem getting the necessary production facilites down
I don't understand this post. So, Terran has to continue playing with the units they have and expect to outmicro and outplay the opponent because we can't tech switch?
What he is saying is that since Terran seems to be the race least able to do an easy tech switch--maybe the focus should be to refine and improve the stuff that terran is actually good at instead of saying "Terran is bad at ______ so we should figure out how we can be good at ______"
|
I agree with Iokac. He basically said everything i was going to say. You are basically discribing a zerg style of play.
Unit composition
Terran are the hardest to tell what kind of tear unit are which. Such as marine tier 1 but what about marauder? They tier 1 or 1.5? Then does that mean everything in the factory tier 2? Those that mean everything in the starport tier 3? Medivac tier 3? Viking tier 3 but they seem kinda weak to be tier 3.... TvZ in broodwar terran would go bio heavy and then get science vessel to go against zerg tier 3 (ultras/defilers). Tier 1 unit(marine) + Tier 3 support unit(vessels) vs tier 3 unit(ultras/defilers) + tier 1 support (zergling).
Zerg on the other hand has the best way to discribe tier 3 cause they have 3 lvl of hatcher = 1, Lair = 2, Hive = 3. So it easy to categorize tier 3 units.
Mobility
You speak mobility but I think terran are not as immobile as you make them sound. Terran well known for their drops and hellion and banshee are rather good at map control which isn't all that bad.
In general, the mid game, terran is suppose to be all up in their enemy face with constant aggression. In broodwar, the mid game was when terran start going aggressive against the zerg. Zerg would try to drone up alot in the early game because they know the chance they will have in the mid to late game is minimal. Same goes for TvP in broodwar, terran will start to accumulate the good number of tanks to move out at this point and secure map control and gain bases and if the opportunity arrives, they will be aggressive and go for the kill.
|
So I guess no one listened to him and posted a VOD with pointless theorycrafting.
|
Money, in terran's case, should not be a problem whatsoever. Almost every single skill on the OC saves you or gives you money. Supply drops instantly save you 100 minerals that you can spend, or MULES give you 270 minerals AND they stack. Personally, since i play all 3 races, i think that Terran mines out bases faster than all the other races.
Terran macro, granted, isn't the greatest thing in the world. You have one production facility, which can have 2 add-ons: Reactors and Tech Labs. Reactors let you produce twice as fast, but only of the most basic unit. Tech Labs let you create stronger, more durable units, but only one at a time. This is significantly less versatile than Protoss macro, let alone Zerg. Warp Gates also allow for some mobility of production.
Tanks were also not mentioned in the post, which are a huge part of Terran's ground army.
I would say that terran's main weakness is mobility. Their most mobile units are hellions and air. Hellions are overall terrible against mid-game unit compositions unless you reach a huge critical mass. The air in itself is easily denied, and leaves your ground army weak. Medivacs are the only way for terran to get from place to place quickly, but are easily sniped by stalkers.
|
As a terran player I think that something is actually really underused : thorship. That's not as much money in your medivac as you may think (compared to 4maraudeurs for example) and if you're obviously not going to use them to harass, it allows your army to be a lot more mobile if you've thor/bio (or like TLO, thor/hellion/bio). In those case the thor is the only thing that slow your army, and you can drop it quickly from the medivac, more quickly than anything in fact, so if you don't fly over the void and along your army you should not be sniped.
And that lets the possiblity to do some really cool micro during the battle. (drop thor in range for 250mm/in front of your rines, pick it when in low health...).
But for tanks, impossible, too risky to have to drop two tanks by medivac and you still need to siege.
|
Regarding to RedMosquito i believe we have to play reactivate; quote from him: "Oh hes getting templar i should get ghosts" "oh now he is getting zealots, i should make blue flame hellions". Playing this way will get you killed because you'll need several new buildings to tech switch that fast and you'll be severely behind in supply." like hell you have to play reactive if he gets templar you bet most people are gonna get ghost and if he gets zealots blue flame might be smart. Hell a great example is colossus viking which Terran doesn't get viking in reaction to colossus? You, don't have to play reactively but if you want to stay alive you should.
As for Imres statement about Thor ship, I believe that it is a good idea to use it, but for each Thor you need to carry in your Thor ship that's 1 medivac you cant send to harass and I believe that it is a bit risky versus blink stalker, if you're not careful you will lose it quickly.
|
On April 20 2011 08:20 Kostoglotov wrote:
A couple of points :
2) Macro
Terrans may have expensive production facilities, but it is very easy to macro with hotkeys and rally points. Protoss can't micro and macro at the same time, we (Terrans) can. I think this is a huge advantage.
If this was truely an advantage Protoss would turn all their warp gates back into gateways when moving out. They could then macro EXACTLY the same as a Terran (macro with hotkeys and have rally points)... but they choose not to because it's not an advantage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
