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On June 07 2021 06:46 SuGo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:48 Ikirouta wrote:
Spoken like a true foreigner.
How often do you hear koreans REALLY crying about map balance?
LOL. I haven’t checked TL in a few days. This thread has a lot of fools but this comment here takes the cake for most room temperature IQ. You don’t know anything about the Korean scene if you say this. Koreans complain more about maps than even foreigners. Plzzzzz shut your mouth whoever you are. I don’t care to comment on the rest of the thread because this was just that bad. At least other comments in this thread are more subjective and open to some level of interpretation (even though most are still wrong). Your comment here is not.
Care to back up some of these statements with some facts and information?
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On June 07 2021 08:26 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:52 TT1 wrote: Players have to deal with trash talking all the time, what makes map making any different? If you're trying to be competitive at anything (be it map making, playing etc.), it comes with the territory. Once your map gets added to a tourney people expect a quality product, making non tourney maps is a completely different story. Certain standards need to be met in a competitive setting. Players are also putting hours, days, weeks, months of practice to play in these tours.. all for your viewing pleasure!
perspective matters Are map makers like Minerals actually getting paid for their efforts? Of course not.. all they're getting is a ton of shit from most of the players.. they can barely get some decent feedback on their newest map ideas and creations.. this is exactly why I respect kogeT so much. He went out of his way to check out and talk about every map from the ox's New Worlds Map Contest. Took like 5 hours or something just to do that..
That was very sweet of him.
Also huge thanks to the players that actually tested these maps and played on them. Big ups.
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On June 07 2021 09:56 cRoSsy wrote: i just looked up the RCG map pool...its actually great....so so very very ultra mega max hyper great....very balanced More whining, less playing.. for sure will get you the spot via last chance World Qualifiers.
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On June 07 2021 06:33 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 06:32 Ikirouta wrote:On June 07 2021 06:29 TT1 wrote:On June 07 2021 06:26 Ikirouta wrote:On June 07 2021 06:12 TT1 wrote:On June 07 2021 06:06 Ikirouta wrote:On June 07 2021 05:52 TT1 wrote:On June 07 2021 05:48 Ikirouta wrote: What a thread.
I'd love to see all of you who complain about mr. Minerals maps take a shot at mapping. Its hard as fuck and I think most of you would give up after a few hours of blends & brushes.
Using "ex Soviet" or CIS qualis is fairly common in other games like dota and nobody gives a shit.
If you think a tourney is unjust and the organizer sucks, vote with your feet and don't play. Its not like anyone is pointing a gun at your head and forcing you to play. Organize your own tourney and run it better so you can show all these "idiots" how its done.
In my honest opinion everyone is equally shit at BW outside korea and its not like someones livelyhood is dependant on the decisions TOs make. Organizing a tourney is a hard and a thankless job and you usually just get shat on whatever you do. Personally I think rus_brain, Zzzero, qikz, schamtoo or whoever organizes a tourney can run it as they please, people who dont like how its run can vote with their feet and not play if they don't like it.
I just want to thank mr. Rus_brain for organizing RCG, and also everyone who hosts tournaments and/or leagues. If someone told me 15 years ago foreign bw would be this active, and have this many tourneys with some prize money, I'd respond with happy words and a smile.
Thanks to all TOs. If you are a player and don't like what they are doing, do a better job or fuck off. Kthxbai. Players have to deal with trash talking all the time, what makes map making any different? If you're trying to be competitive at anything (be it map making, playing etc.), it comes with the territory. Once your map gets added to a tourney people expect a quality product, making non tourney maps is a completely different story. Certain standards need to be met in a competitive setting. Players are also putting hours, days, weeks, months of practice to play in these tours.. all for your viewing pleasure! My point of voting with your feet still stands. Nobody is forcing anyone to play in anything, the players livelyhood doesn't depend on the tournaments either. Vote with your feet and don't play if you don't like a map in a tourney or veto it if you can. Being a little bitch and crying about it is the absolute worst option imo. If one truly wants to be a top tier player they don't complain about maps, they shut up and deal with it. How often do you hear tennis players complain about the surface they are playing on or hockey players complaining about the quality of ice? Really rarely if at all. Spoken like a true casual, tennis is purely a 1v1 game so the variables are the same for both competitors. BW is a 1v1 game with 3 races. That adds more factors and thus, balance to the equation. No one is asking for perfect balance, players just want a somewhat even playing field, that's all they're asking for. To me anything less is essentially like spitting in the faces of your competitors, it's like saying your time is less valuable than ours. It's the bare minimum that you should do. Spoken like a true foreigner. How often do you hear koreans REALLY crying about map balance? And even when they do, they work their asses off to come up with a gameplan to have ato better chance at victory. Foreigners tend to fall down and start crying about the game not being fair. Chess is another good example. Whoever is playing white has an advantage from the start, but at the top level players still play their heart out to try to win/draw (depending on the match score / tournament situatuon). They don't curl up to a ball, fall down and start crying about the game being unfair. "Chess is another good example" dude what do you not understand. Chess is 1v1, these variables even out with time for both players.. that's what balances it. It's something that both players are aware of before time and deal with it because ultimately it evens out. Aight well I'm pretty sure you don't get my point and its getting late. Gn, congratz on the IIHF win. yes because you have 0 perspective on what competition is, that's what you fail to understand
On June 07 2021 06:46 SuGo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2021 05:48 Ikirouta wrote:
Spoken like a true foreigner.
How often do you hear koreans REALLY crying about map balance?
LOL. I haven’t checked TL in a few days. This thread has a lot of fools but this comment here takes the cake for most room temperature IQ. You don’t know anything about the Korean scene if you say this. Koreans complain more about maps than even foreigners. Plzzzzz shut your mouth whoever you are. I don’t care to comment on the rest of the thread because this was just that bad. At least other comments in this thread are more subjective and open to some level of interpretation (even though most are still wrong). Your comment here is not.
I feel you two especially fail to understand the simple fact that a tournament or any competition is not a democracy. Its usually a totalitarian dictatorship where one entity / person makes all (or most of) the decisions regarding the competition.
It is true that Koreans might complain more about maps, I was tired and I pulled that out of my ass. A man can only admit when he is wrong.
Anyway, back to my point. As a competitor in any competition you have things that you have control over and things that you don't have control over. I took tennis, hockey and chess as examples. I'm gonna keep using them.
In tennis you don't have control over of which type of surface any tournament is played on, be it grass, mass etc. That is chosen by the tournament organizers, and some players don't like playing on certain types of surfaces so they don't go to tournaments where courts are that surface. The important thing here is that they don't have control over it. Its the same thing with hockey & chess respectively. The compretitors have things that they have no control over, them being ice & piece colour here.
Now, in any competition you wish to maximize your chances of winning . That is why you compete, atleast why most people do. You are not competing to minimize the chances of losing, thats playing "not to lose". You are playing to win. And you are going to do things that give you better chances of victory that are within the competitions rules and not beyond your control.
In a tournament setting game of starcraft what can you control?
You can control the maps you play depending on the system, but lets say we are playing in a tournament where a map is set. Its a thing you have absolutely no control over. By entering the tournament you acknowledge this fact, you have no control over it whatsoever. All control about the map pool & what maps are played in which rounds in this example are on the tournament organizer.
If I were to compete in a tournament like this, I would try to maximize my chances of winning by affecting my gameplay via builds, scouting, reacting to what my opponent is doing etc. Play a game of starcraft and make decisions to maximize my chance of winning. If a map doesn't allow certain playstyles I'd do whatever was deemed the best on a map to give me maximum chance of victory. (Plasma is actually a good example of this but I'm not gonna delve deeper into that). After picking my strategy and executing it to the best of my ability I might win, probably not, but I might. But for the sake of this example lets say I lose.
As a competitor in this situation I have a few options. I could go try and improve my level of skill about the things I have control over, my strategy, my execution, my gameplay. Or I could say "Fuck this tournament, its so stupid that I have to play on this map" and never play a tournament again that has that map in the pool. Or I could start bitching about losing because of the map, and demanding that something needs to change eventhough I have no control over this whatsoever.
I honestly just don't get it. You people are focusing on a thing that you have 0 control over and that you will have no control over unless tournaments become some type of a democracy, which is unlikely especially in a small scene like foreign brood war, where tournaments are generally run by a single person who can run their tournament however they want.
As a competitior you should always focus on the things you have control over to maximize your chance of victory. Its better displayed in MOBAs. The mentality you guys are showing is "I lost because my team is shit" instead of "I lost because I wasn't good enough to carry my team". And there is a huge difference in these 2 mentalities imo.
And I feel like Koreans understand this better than foreigners ever will, that is why I took Koreans as an example, they always try to maximize their chances of winning in a tournament setting, even if they cry more about maps that foreigners do, they do whatever it takes to give them better odds at winning.
Lets say there is a map where the winrate for your race is 30% and for the race you will face in a competitive game is 70%. There are so many variables (like TT1 said) that you have control over that you can use to swing the "pendulum" of win% in your favour, as a competitor I'd focus on those. If you clearly are the better player you should win no matter what map, but if the skill between the 2 players is close the map has more impact of course, but thats how it should be in my opinion, and thats all up to the TO, not the competitor. This is a thing that has occured in the Koreans scene multiple times, protoss not doing well? TOs put more P favoured maps in tournaments, same for terran same for zerg. Players play them and do their best to win, no matter the circumstances they try to maximize their odds of winning. And as a competitor thats what you should focus on, not crying about the TO.
If you cry and bitch about the maps in a tourney, don't play or then organize your own tournament or make the maps so you have control over those things, then you can bitch all you want. If you don't have control over them, don't bitch and shut up.
Thank you, goodbye.
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A cow that moos a lot doesn't give much milk.
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I know that I'm just a no-name neo-nazi boomer from Europe and as such no one cares about my opinion, so this is meant for Rus_Brain as (hopefully) constructive criticism.
1, punishing a whole region because of 2-3 players' not showing up is unfair. Would you like to go to prison for another Russian commiting murder just because you're also Russian? Yeah, extreme example, but hopefully you can see the point. Collective punishment is unjust.
2, I think you've got to decide what kind of tournament RCG is, because looking at the qualification system I'm getting mixed signals. If RCG is to be the successor of WCG then you should have representation from every major area of the world (except for Korea, barring them is understandable since it's an event for foreigners). This means that NA should have qualifiers. As per your decision, they can still qualify, although it is harder. However, if you count Former Soviet Union as a separate region from Europe, I think you ought to count NA and LATAM as separate regions as well. And you could argue that NA is worse than EU/LATAM, and that's true, but that shouldn't matter. When it came to WCG it was never about the absolute top players of StarCraft, but the best of each country/region. And this is where the mixed signals come in with the BSL integration. BSL is not region-locked, so players who qualify through BSL get in purely based on being the best of the best ( ). This means absolute top player > regional top player which is unfit for a pure WCG-type event. Now, I'm not against that, top-tier competition is obviously great, I'm just pointing it out. In any case, if you'd like RCG to be more like WCG, my suggestion is that you can keep the BSL integration, just give it fewer spots (for example, only the two finalists of each BSL get a spot) and separate NA and LATAM on account of them being big enough regions to warrant them being separate regions and to ensure that every major region will have a representative or two.
3, thanks for RCG and the work you (all) do organising tournaments like this!
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I would like to make a formal complain to Rus_Brain.
Poland has been #1 country outside of Korea for many many years (we won all nation leagues in last 10 years and had most trophies at global tournaments), but we don't get a dedicated qualifier. The fact that we have to participate in a "Europe" qualifier combined with 44 countries / 746milion people is very unfair and should be reconsidered.
Ah, 4 players (25% of all spots) from Poland qualified anyway so I guess it doesnt matter.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On June 07 2021 18:16 kogeT wrote: I would like to make a formal complain to Rus_Brain.
Poland has been #1 country outside of Korea for many many years (we won all nation leagues in last 10 years and had most trophies at global tournaments), but we don't get a dedicated qualifier. The fact that we have to participate in a "Europe" qualifier combined with 44 countries / 746milion people is very unfair and should be reconsidered.
Ah, 4 players (25% of all spots) from Poland qualified anyway so I guess it doesnt matter.. Shots fired.
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One of the worst type of people in any community are the ones who's only contribution is complaining. If you want things to get better and you want change, try being constructive and pragmatic about it instead of toxic. Something like this doesn't seem like its worth creating enemies and getting nasty over. Never ceases to amaze me how much drama and infighting goes on in this scene when we all probably share a common goal; making the scene as good as it possibly can be. Its embarrassing really.
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On June 07 2021 05:52 TT1 wrote:
Players have to deal with trash talking all the time, what makes map making any different? If you're trying to be competitive at anything (be it map making, playing etc.), it comes with the territory.
If this is your attitude towards life, have a long, deep look in the mirror and reflect a while. Loud yelling, flames and insults will get you nowhere. Personally, I won't tolerate such kind of behaviour in any event I'm involved as organizer. And I keep comments in seemingly unrelated events in mind, especially if it comes from people with a dubious past.
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Belgium9937 Posts
I'm locking this cesspool of a thread. Any constructive argument is just getting burried between all the mud slinging anyway.
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