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I am looking at the results in all the seasons so far:
1st place 8T 6Z 0P
2nd place 6Z 5P 3T (4P 2nd places relate to first four seasons - in the last 10 seasons P was 2nd only once)
Protoss being the least successful race is a well established fact, but these results are crazy, and the sample is significant. For those following this league since the beginning, what do you think the reason is?
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Rain never played KCM and Bisu only after his return from the military, while top zerg and terran players like flash, light, soulkey, hero and zero have been playing kcm a lot. While that might not be the only reason, i think it plays a big part
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Can't you just enjoy the games and be joyful whoever wins? I main P but I don't care if a team P ever wins. Maps play a huge part, Flash and Last play a part. Whatever team wins, wins. What I care about is the quality of games and they are outstanding.
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I was interested to know whether it was certain P players not participating.
The games truly are great. It's probably the highest level of BW aside ASL, hence the question mark on t and Z winning everything. The league started when, 2017? Last was not nearly the current Last back then.
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Sponbang stats reflect this as well. Huge amounts of Z in the Top10 at all times with 1-3 terrans in the mix.
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It really looks like Protoss is by far the most disadvantaged race based on this data from KCM Race Wars and Sponbang.
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I like to think that protoss is more suited to preparation similar to terran while zerg benefits the least from preparation.
So a random zerg baseline in a non-league prep situation favors zergs while map specific and player specific plays excell in league prep games.
I think terran baseline is very high as well. While protoss generic builds can work in ladders or pickup games I think the top of the S class are there because they can handle anything generic... meanwhile zergs have won leagues on the strength repeating very generic builds like 2 hat muta or 3 hat muta.
With how we have balanced the game for 18 years has been through maps.... so if I was going to point a finger, I would start there.
I could be totally wrong. Currently struggling to stay around 1900 mmr. So ... im bad.
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On September 03 2020 01:30 FakeFin wrote: Rain never played KCM and Bisu only after his return from the military, while top zerg and terran players like flash, light, soulkey, hero and zero have been playing kcm a lot. While that might not be the only reason, i think it plays a big part The toss KCM lineup wasn't lacking with Snow, Best, Mini and Stork playing often in KCM. Hero is the same as Bisu, he returned from the army recently.
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Theres a little of this and a little bit of that. One could also argue that Rain retired, while Mini and Best struggle with pressure. By pressure i mean the price of gasoline increased at the pump, etc. Also, protoss are weak.
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On September 03 2020 08:57 TornadoSteve wrote: Theres a little of this and a little bit of that. One could also argue that Rain retired, while Mini and Best struggle with pressure. By pressure i mean the price of gasoline increased at the pump, etc. Also, protoss are weak.
Protoss isn't weak, but it is hard to find the 'perfect' Protoss player, one who can replicate Jangbi's PvT and Bisu's PvZ (from his prime days) and also has a solid PvP. Often, Protoss players have troubles in a specific matchup be it PvT, PvZ or PvP and this is reflected in the winrates.
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I am not into the reasoning for P being the historically least successful race by far (i.e. imbalance or lack of truly great P players). I was only interested to know whether the KCM results stem from the lack of participation of best P players. If - and only if - this is not the case, then the lack of P success is KCM is telling.
As far as maps go, the game is definitely balanced around them. Now, whether "standard" maps as recognised by the community are balanced, is a difficult question.
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Snow, Best and Mini are always playing, so does Bisu.
Actually out of all top pros Flash probably skips it the most.
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I presume the Koreans have also been commenting on how poor P is performing in KCM. Anyone has any insight on this?
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On September 04 2020 07:20 Rainalcar wrote: I presume the Koreans have also been commenting on how poor P is performing in KCM. Anyone has any insight on this?
I think this has a lot to do with Best, a player with amazing online results. Somehow Best cannot adapt to his opponents in this kind of setting despite him being so strong in every aspect of the game. Terran lineup had Last, Light and Flash, players with incredibly adaptibility. Zergs have a lot of really strong online players and zvp monsters like Larva, Hero, Soulkey, Effort, Zero... I think that after Kespa zergs have made adjustments in zvp so the matchup has slided incredibly in zergs favour... as if it was better during Kespa.
Another thing is Bisu, he has been doing well now that his playing in KCM.
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I think it's actually the maps. What is called standard maps nowadays is actually easier for other races than protoss. If we take the stats for FS and CB in the last 2 years, pretty sure we will see protoss have less than 50% wins in both pvt and pvz on them.
Another thing is, the more time a map is played the more terrans learn how to successfully deal with it and the least improvement is seen in protoss. That's because the number of options the races have in trying things is bigger for terran/zerg when compared to protoss.
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I think the lack of well rounded players of protoss leading to this result is right on. This makes the protoss race in this specific setup most volatile. You'll have Stork win w/ T then lose w/ Z, then Mini win w/ Z lose w/ T etc. other races are able to sustain streaks better which is how you win race wars.
You could argue that based on ASL results protoss is weakest but I'd say that only shows everyone not Flash is weakest.
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Bisutopia19033 Posts
On September 05 2020 09:08 PVJ wrote: I think the lack of well rounded players of protoss leading to this result is right on. This makes the protoss race in this specific setup most volatile. You'll have Stork win w/ T then lose w/ Z, then Mini win w/ Z lose w/ T etc. other races are able to sustain streaks better which is how you win race wars.
You could argue that based on ASL results protoss is weakest but I'd say that only shows everyone not Flash is weakest. That's been the case for the full history of Protoss players. Can anyone claim to be the most well rounded Protoss player of all time? That's why the Protoss dragons were so great. They'd defeat everyone else based on their best matchups and then fight each other in the finals.
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I don't think so. No P was ever that dominant in every matchup. Bisu's pvz and pvp come to mind, but pvz is too difficult for p with today's knowledge (hence why it's super rare to see pvz stomps in general), while his pvt was never that awesome. I can't remember any other p in the modern era that really dominated 2 matchups at the same time, let alone 3.
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